Children seized from homeschooling family in Germany

[Pretty in Pink]

This case solidified my decision never to be a part of HSLDA, despite the fact that I technically agree with them on a lot of points. They used this family shamefully -- convinced them, I guess, that they would be the German version of the U.S. homeschooling pioneers and would pave the way for legal homeschooling in Germany, ignoring the very real cultural and governmental differences between the two nations. For the money HSLDA wasted on this travesty (now tragedy), they could have helped this family settle into a homeschool-friendly EU nation with no immigration issues.

 

I wish I had the nerve to say this on FB, but I would be shunned by all my hs friends.

 

Well, I borrowed your words and shared on my own FB along with a link to HSLDA's version of the story. Thank you for summing up my own feelings on the matter so succinctly.

[PeacefulChaos]

While I'm up in the air - I go back and forth regularly - about whether or not homeschooling is a right, that doesn't change the fact that I would not put my family at risk for the sake of championing the homeschooling cause.  Period. 

My family unit staying together is MUCH more important than the overall goal of legal  homeschooling for everyone. 

 

[chiguirre]

Why should it be just a privilege not a right? Children belong to parents not the government. Why should any government have the right to say how children are being educated?

Because those kids grow up and become adults. If they're not able to be responsible, self-supporting, law-abiding citizens, the rest of us end up paying for their parents' negligence. If kids with no disabilities don't learn to read, write, do arithmetic, think critically and learn on their own, they won't be able to find a job which will support them. They'll have to fall back on public assistance or crime to survive. That affects everyone and it becomes the government's business to ensure that all capable children are educated.

[Mergath]

Why should it be just a privilege not a right? Children belong to parents not the government. Why should any government have the right to say how children are being educated?

 

Children don't "belong" to the parents.  They aren't inanimate property.  And a government has to have a say in the welfare of the country's children because, unfortunately, some people are idiots that couldn't properly care for a goldfish, much less another human being.

[swellmomma]

Swellmomma, hsing in Alberta used to be illegal. Our former pastor there had a brother who started homeschooling when it was. The brother and a few other families broke the law in order to force change.

It was never illegal as in criminal code such in Germany.  CPS and truancy officers still pushed the boundaries and tried to force families back into public schools, parents had to fight to up hold their rights, but it was never truly illegal.

 

ETA this document shows the history of homeschooling in north america, including the beginning of homeschooling in canada and how recently it was illegal in the USA it is a pdf so I hope the link works

 

www.fraserinstitute.org/workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2952

 

 

[liber]

Children don't "belong" to the parents. They aren't inanimate property. And a government has to have a say in the welfare of the country's children because, unfortunately, some people are idiots that couldn't properly care for a goldfish, much less another human being.

No one said children were property. But they "belong" more to the parents than to the government.

[Flowing Brook]

Because those kids grow up and become adults. If they're not able to be responsible, self-supporting, law-abiding citizens, the rest of us end up paying for their parents' negligence. If kids with no disabilities don't learn to read, write, do arithmetic, think critically and learn on their own, they won't be able to find a job which will support them. They'll have to fall back on public assistance or crime to survive. That affects everyone and it becomes the government's business to ensure that all capable children are educated.

 

Um I never said children should not be educated just that it was not for the government to dictate how that education comes about. I am all for obeying the government. I just do not feel they have the right to tell us how we can educate our children.  If children are being neglected then yes by all means someone preferably a family member needs to step in and remedy the situation. Yes all children should be educated it is just not for the government or anyone else to say how that education comes about.

[Flowing Brook]

Children don't "belong" to the parents.  They aren't inanimate property.  And a government has to have a say in the welfare of the country's children because, unfortunately, some people are idiots that couldn't properly care for a goldfish, much less another human being.

 

As long as their is no abuse the government needs to butt out.  Children are parents responsibility not the government or the nosy neighbor down the street. My comment was in regards to swellmomma stating that it was a privilege nor a right to home school.

[Mergath]

No one said children were property. But they "belong" more to the parents than to the government.

 

Saying that children belong to their parents and the parents can do what they wish with them certainly makes it sound like they're property to me, and it's a mindset that is sadly prevalent around here.

[Catwoman]

I think homeschooling should be legal everywhere, but if I lived in a place where it wasn't, and where I knew that the police could storm into my home and take my child away from me because I was homeschooling illegally, I would either comply with the laws while I tried to lobby for a change in those laws, or I would move elsewhere.

[Mergath]

As long as their is no abuse the government needs to butt out.  Children are parents responsibility not the government or the nosy neighbor down the street. My comment was in regards to swellmomma stating that it was a privilege nor a right to home school.

 

And many governments hold that education is a right, and withholding a basic education from a child is a form of abuse.  Like others have said, if these people want their government to recognize homeschooling as a valid form of education, they need to work to change the laws.  But running around yelling, "They belong to me and I'll do what I want with them!" doesn't do any good.

[liber]

 

It was never illegal as in criminal code such in Germany. CPS and truancy officers still pushed the boundaries and tried to force families back into public schools, parents had to fight to up hold their rights, but it was never truly illegal.

 

ETA this document shows the history of homeschooling in north america, including the beginning of homeschooling in canada and how recently it was illegal in the USA

history of homeschooing‎

 

 

View shared post

The family I know would disagree with your interpretation on whether homeschooling was illegal or not.

 

 

One of your links do not work for me. The Wiki link doesn't mention the history of homeschooling in Alberta at all.

[Mergath]

Um I never said children should not be educated just that it was not for the government to dictate how that education comes about. I am all for obeying the government. I just do not feel they have the right to tell us how we can educate our children.  If children are being neglected then yes by all means someone preferably a family member needs to step in and remedy the situation. Yes all children should be educated it is just not for the government or anyone else to say how that education comes about.

 

And if a parent feels that literacy and basic math skills aren't a necessary part of a child's education, and there is no family to step in, then what?  There has to be a line somewhere.

[swellmomma]

The family I know would disagree with your interpretation on whether homeschooling was illegal or not.

 

 

One of your links do not work for me. The Wiki link doesn't mention the history of homeschooling in Alberta at all.

I already fixed the link I was only trying to post 1 and my clipboard added 2.

 

As for my interpretation, there is nothing to interpret.  for something to be illegal there has to be a law on the books and there has never been such a law in Alberta or anywhere else in Canada.  It was considered to be extreme, and weird and a hundred other things but it was not illegal.  There is nothing to interpret there.

[Parrothead]

Because those kids grow up and become adults. If they're not able to be responsible, self-supporting, law-abiding citizens, the rest of us end up paying for their parents' negligence. If kids with no disabilities don't learn to read, write, do arithmetic, think critically and learn on their own, they won't be able to find a job which will support them. They'll have to fall back on public assistance or crime to survive. That affects everyone and it becomes the government's business to ensure that all capable children are educated.

And such a fine job they are doing. At least in the US. Just peachy, that public education here. I'm so glad we don't have anyone on welfare or any criminals trying to take the easy way out.

[Parrothead]

No one said children were property. But they "belong" more to the parents than to the government.

I agree. Ask my kid who she belongs to. She won't say the government.

[Flowing Brook]

And many governments hold that education is a right, and withholding a basic education from a child is a form of abuse.  Like others have said, if these people want their government to recognize homeschooling as a valid form of education, they need to work to change the laws.  But running around yelling, "They belong to me and I'll do what I want with them!" doesn't do any good.

 

Please show me where I said it was ok for parents to withhold education from children. Show me where I said not to work on changing the laws. I agree whole heartedly that if you want the laws changed to go through the right channels to get them changed.  If homeschooling were against the law I would  go to the government to change those law. If homeschooling were against the law. Then I would put my child in school while I was trying to help get the law changed. There are plenty of things the government does that I don't agree with.  It does not mean I am not complying with their rules just I don't agree. The government using my tax dollars to fund abortion. I don't agree with it but it does not mean I stop paying taxes.

 

Please just because you disagree with me does not give you the right to put words in my mouth.

[asta]

Before this thread gets Sh!t canned...

 

Here is a succinct history of homeschooling in the United States, put together by GHEA.

 

http://www.ghea.org/pages/articles/focus.php?ID=30&parent=45

 

 

A

[bolt.]

 

 

In the U.S,, rarely is SWAT sent in to remove children from their parents merely because they are homeschooling.

When working with *translations* the word "special" does not mean "special forces, the equivalent of a swat team" -- it means "people who do things that require specialized skills". I honestly don't see the issue with having a large team on hand for a complex situation that they are taking seriously.

 

What's the 'better' plan? To apprehend 4 children under international attention with a team of one social worker, a cop and his deputy? Without authorizing the team to touch, move or restrain the children? How would that have gone if the parents told their kids to run and hide? Many hands make light work, and each one of those kids did not suffer from having individual attention (except, of course, that they suffered because they were unjustly removed at all).

 

If there is such a thing as educational neglect, a country needs to define what that is. If they define it as, "Not allowing children to experience the rich and holistic education and socialization experience of public schools" (for example) -- that means that they have defined education itself as something that homeschooling can not and does not provide.

 

Governments don't think they *own* children, they think they *owe* children. They consider children to be citizens in a direct sense, as persons with a relationship with the government of their country. It is actually quite rare (globally) to see the US attitude that children are some kind of 'indirect citizens' whose relationship with the government (rights, responsibilities, etc) is mediated through their parents.

 

Governments *owe* various things to their child citizens, (including an education) and are responsible to see that they get it, with or without the agreement of the parents. It is a responsibility held between the government and the child him/her-self. That's why it comes down to the point of opinion "what exactly is an adequate education" -- the US thinks one thing, and Germany thinks another thing... but the way they respond when whatever "adequate" is isn't happening is not all that different.

 

(For the record -- I think that homeschooling provides an adequate education which shouldn't worry any government... but not everyone in the world agrees with me.)

[chiguirre]

And such a fine job they are doing. At least in the US. Just peachy, that public education here. I'm so glad we don't have anyone on welfare or any criminals trying to take the easy way out.

I agree that public schools are not doing as well as they should, but that doesn't mean that parents should be allowed to non-school their children. If parents had an absolute right to raise their children in any way they pleased, we would have even more dysfunction than we currently do. I think it's reasonable for society to impose minimum standards in the care and education of children because society bears the burden when parents are negligent. The way that our society imposes those minimum standards is through our government. I think that we're too populous and diverse for any other mechanism to work.

[Catwoman]

Before this thread gets Sh!t canned...

 

What could possibly go wrong? ;) :D

[Parrothead]

I agree that public schools are not doing as well as they should, but that doesn't mean that parents should be allowed to non-school their children. If parents had an absolute right to raise their children in any way they pleased, we would have even more dysfunction than we currently do. I think it's reasonable for society to impose minimum standards in the care and education of children because society bears the burden when parents are negligent. The way that our society imposes those minimum standards is through our government. I think that we're too populous and diverse for any other mechanism to work.

I agree with most of what you said. I don't think there would be more bad parents if parents had the right to raise there children any way they please. In the US we pretty much already have that right. Short of abusing or intentionally starving my kid there isn't much I can't do for or to her. Making bad parenting decisions or neglecting her education is already an option I have. This is one aspect of why we have such horrendous schools in this country.

 

Really, we don't have a lot of parenting laws on the books. We don't need more.

[Parrothead]

actually given that in the US we try to give everyone a basic ed, yeah I'd say we are doing pretty well. Though the school to prison pipeline is at work thanks to continued systemic bigotry

I suppose the operative word there is "try". Since so many kids graduate high school functionally illiterate.

[Sahamamama]

Society bears the burden when parents are negligent

 

And we bear the burden when government and government schools are negligent.

[jewellsmommy]

But comparing slavery which is a violation to human rights, and homeschooling is silly.  I don't see anyone saying they agree with the laws, but homeschooling is not a human right despite what you may want. 

 

But Is raising our children the way we see fit not a right (and responsibility-2 sides of the same coin)? I believe it to be. How we choose to raise our children includes how they are educated.

 

And what humanity, as a collective, views human rights to be is what makes the definition of human rights.

[bolt.]

 

 

And what humanity, as a collective, views human rights to be is what makes the definition of human rights.

Collectively, the western world has decided in favor of human rights regarding children-as-humans, including the fact that there shall be limits on the discretionary decisions of their parents, based on the state's view of when those decisions have the potential to significantly negatively impact the child. That is why governing your child exclusively-and-without-limits is not a human right, and it is why not all educational/psuedo-educational options are open to your discretion. Some things that "Parent A" would call "education" are considered "just not adequate" in every place.

 

*Which* decisions have the potential to negatively impact the child, and "how far" a parent can go in their discretion before the state intervenes, what kind of education is "just not adequate" -- those things are up for international debate. Nations choose different places for "that line" -- but all civilized nations have that line, because all civilized nations regard children as persons and citizens, who have rights and require protections. No civilized nation regards all parenting (or all "education") as an unlimited discretionary area.

[bolt.]

Without the desire to start rumours, just as a thought experiment, how would your opinions change if it was "revealed" that hypothetical German parents that endured a co-incidentally identical raid/removal for homeschooling -- if it was revealed that that hypothetical family was homeschooling based on their strongly held values of white supremacy and Niche-an philosophies? That their objection to public schools was the teaching of racial equality and selfless social values, not to mention various students (and teachers!) of undesirable races?

 

Is it right for the state to intervene? Can parents teach any values they want, and keep their children away from school to ensure their exclusive influence? Or is there a line?

 

In my opinion there has to be a line. And if there's a line, then intervention is expected and within the authority of the state.

 

We end up right back at "where should the line be" not "can't parents stand on their right to do anything they like without intervention".

[Mom in High Heels]

I personally would suck it up and comply with the laws if the alternative was to have my kids taken away.  I have been told this makes me a complete wuss.  I can live with that.

 

I don't know why that family was homeschooling, but unless it was due to some unique critical need of their kid(s), I can't see risking the disruption of having kids separated from their parents.  Whether the German law is wrong is up for discussion, but disrupting custody of kids can create big problems over the long term.  Especially when coupled with the inevitable reality that they will now have to go to that strange, scary place we call school.

 

While hsing is illegal in Germany, there are cases where they can be hsed by a certified tutor.  If the child has a severe illness or extreme learning/social disability, they qualify.  The gov't has to approve the tutor, and they are taught specific gov't approved subjects.  Schooling in Germany is very different from schooling in the US.  Not all students go to the same type of school.  At some age (I can't remember which), they are split into 5 different types of schools, depending on their abilities.  It is an incredibly complex system.  I'm not saying I agree with the gov't position on hsing, but in some ways, I can see the reasons behind the laws.  

Whether WE like it or not, these are their laws and if the are broken there are punishments.  

[Parrothead]

Without the desire to start rumours, just as a thought experiment, how would your opinions change if it was "revealed" that hypothetical German parents that endured a co-incidentally identical raid/removal for homeschooling -- if it was revealed that that hypothetical family was homeschooling based on their strongly held values of white supremacy and Niche-an philosophies? That their objection to public schools was the teaching of racial equality and selfless social values, not to mention various students (and teachers!) of undesirable races?

 

Is it right for the state to intervene? Can parents teach any values they want, and keep their children away from school to ensure their exclusive influence? Or is there a line?

 

In my opinion there has to be a line. And if there's a line, then intervention is expected and within the authority of the state.

 

We end up right back at "where should the line be" not "can't parents stand on their right to do anything they like without intervention".

Ummm... There are white supremacists homeschooling.

 

Personally I think they need reprogramming, but I'd defend their right to homeschool.

 

Many homeschoolers already keep their children home to maintain their values and influence alive and well.

 

Where is the line drawn that says what influence parents have over their children? The fact that there is no line is how bigotry and hatred are perpetuated.

[jewellsmommy]

Collectively, the western world has decided in favor of human rights regarding children-as-humans, including the fact that there shall be limits on the discretionary decisions of their parents, based on the state's view of when those decisions have the potential to significantly negatively impact the child. That is why governing your child exclusively-and-without-limits is not a human right, and it is why not all educational/psuedo-educational options are open to your discretion. Some things that "Parent A" would call "education" are considered "just not adequate" in every place.

 

*Which* decisions have the potential to negatively impact the child, and "how far" a parent can go in their discretion before the state intervenes, what kind of education is "just not adequate" -- those things are up for international debate. Nations choose different places for "that line" -- but all civilized nations have that line, because all civilized nations regard children as persons and citizens, who have rights and require protections. No civilized nation regards all parenting (or all "education") as an unlimited discretionary area.

 

All of our rights have those gray lines around the edges (so to speak). There is NO right that exists without a limit. Even the right to life is limited (in America) to include rather or not you ever commit a capital offense. If you do, your right to life will be stripped from you. No one is trying to claim the  do whatever you want to children as a right. Our rights end where another's begin. Raising children and choices of education are not unique in that fact. All of our rights are still within the confines of established law. But rights are still in the eye of the beholder.

 

The right to raise children under a parent's authority is not in conflict with a children as humans point of view. Saying things like 'my' child or 'our' children does not equate to ownership or a view of sub-humanhood. And last I checked we (in America and I believe quite a few other countries) do respect the rights of parents to raise children as they see fit (within the law, as with other rights) even though we may not like how it is being done.

[regentrude]

The right to raise children under a parent's authority is not in conflict with a children as humans point of view.

 

That, too, is not clearcut. For example, in some other civilized countries, hitting your own child is as much against the law as hitting an adult. In contrast, in this country, spanking is a right given to parents that could be seen in direct conflict with a children as humans point of view - I mean, when else do you ever have the legal right to hit another human?

[Χά�ων]

And many governments hold that education is a right, and withholding a basic education from a child is a form of abuse.  Like others have said, if these people want their government to recognize homeschooling as a valid form of education, they need to work to change the laws.  But running around yelling, "They belong to me and I'll do what I want with them!" doesn't do any good.

There are people here who do not believe in educating girls beyond being a mother and submissive wife. When I said it was abuse I was jumped on for saying that. I agree with you 100%, just want to let you know that your voice of reason will fall on deaf ears.

[2biscuitsplz]

I am an American. Sent most of my childhood growing up in Germany. "Force" in Germany is nothing like the force used in America. In the US we qualify force as deadly or not. In Europe, there is just force. One day after school the doorbell rang. I answered the door to armed men with Uzis in my face and they "moved" me aside and came in. They did what they wanted. Someone told them that we had illegal items, American food items, in our house and we had not paid taxes on those items. Exactly what was found in our house were 2 empty soda cans in our trash and an empty burger wrapper from an American fast food place from the military base. We were NOT military, but we had a lot of military friends. That is one day my 12 year old heart will never recover from. They tore our house up. Dumped my clothes out and pilfered through every nook and cranny.

It was a hard day.

They took my dad down for questioning and he returned home 8 hours later. He paid a fine for the trash that had been left behind by a friend. The fine was nearly $1000. That is a lot of money, especially when our take home was less than $800 a month.

 

I believe instructing your children in any manner you wish is a Human Rights matter. Yes, German police can do whatever they wish. And no! There is no recourse from it.

IMHO.

[asta]

Collectively, the western world has decided in favor of human rights regarding children-as-humans, including the fact that there shall be limits on the discretionary decisions of their parents, based on the state's view of when those decisions have the potential to significantly negatively impact the child. That is why governing your child exclusively-and-without-limits is not a human right, and it is why not all educational/psuedo-educational options are open to your discretion. Some things that "Parent A" would call "education" are considered "just not adequate" in every place.

 

*Which* decisions have the potential to negatively impact the child, and "how far" a parent can go in their discretion before the state intervenes, what kind of education is "just not adequate" -- those things are up for international debate. Nations choose different places for "that line" -- but all civilized nations have that line, because all civilized nations regard children as persons and citizens, who have rights and require protections. No civilized nation regards all parenting (or all "education") as an unlimited discretionary area.

I think the bolded is extremely important to remember.

 

All nations see themselves as having human rights, as you have said. Heck, even "uncivilized" nations see themselves as having them (for select members).

 

Once again, looking at the world through the lens of the US legal system and/or culture and expecting it to "make sense" is never going to work.

 

I find it interesting, personally, that the "they're wrong because they're not following what we believe to be the correct model" standpoint holds such a high "place in the rankings" (so to speak) on a Classical Education board.

 

JMO

 

 

A

 

 

P.S. if one ever wants to read some very interesting stuff on how a nation perceives their human rights, find something detailing China's official stance (individual rights are secondary to the people, for which the State is the protector). Right or wrong - looked at NOT from US eyes...

[Guest submarines]

I am an American. Spent most of my childhood growing up in Germany. "Force" in Germany is nothing like the force used in America. In the US we qualify force as deadly or not. In Europe, there is just force. One day after school the doorbell rang. I answered the door to armed men with Uzis in my face and they "moved" me aside and came in. They did what they wanted. Someone told them that we had illegal items, American food items, in our house and we had not paid taxes on those items. Exactly what was found in our house were 2 empty soda cans in our trash and an empty burger wrapper from an American fast food place from the military base. We were NOT military, but we had a lot of military friends. That is one day my 12 year old heart will never recover from. They tore our house up. Dumped my clothes out and pilfered through every nook and cranny.

It was a hard day.

They took my dad down for questioning and he returned home 8 hours later. He paid a fine for the trash that had been left behind by a friend. The fine was nearly $1000. That is a lot of money, especially when our take home was less than $800 a month.

 

I believe instructing your children in any manner you wish is a Human Rights matter. Yes, German police can do whatever they wish. And no! There is no recourse from it.

IMHO.

Are you talking about East Germany?

[rdj2027]

Are you talking about East Germany?

I was wondering about this because the German (or what used to be West German police) police did not/does not use Uzies.  Never mind I find that story for a number of reasons unlikely.  As an American he would most likely not have grown up in East Germany though.

[regentrude]

Are you talking about East Germany?

 

I happen to be from East Germany, and there such a thing would have been thinkable - but not for soda cans. They would have raided for illegal printed materials. Taking a person for questioning - yep, to be expected.

 

But this person, with ties to the American military, would have definitely lived in the West.

Sorry, the story does not add up. I would suspect there was more going on that the parents chose not to burden a 12 year old with.

26 years ago, in 1987,  American food items were definitely not illegal to have. And while Germans are against litter, but police do not storm your house with machine guns and fine you 1k for littering. And if it is about tax issues, those would not be dealt with by armed police. It simply does not make sense. If a person is questioned for 8 hours, there must be a much more serious issue than some fast food.

[2biscuitsplz]

Western Germany. I can tell you, it was very traumatizing. I was only 12. I have asked my parents many times about this, they know much less than I do. My parents were missionaries. We lived totally on the German economy. I attended German school. I learned to adapt to German toiletries and I can tell you, starting yur monthly cycles is strange and odd enough in America, but doing so in Germany where there was no Always or Tampax, it was startling for sure. I have no cause to make any of this up. I lived every moment of it. I was 11 when we moved back to Germany and 22 when we moved back. I feel more European then not, at times. Yes, they were Uzies. The same as the Polizei carry in the airports.

[Reflections]

Western Germany. I can tell you, it was very traumatizing. I was only 12. I have asked my parents many times about this, they know much less than I do. My parents were missionaries. We lived totally on the German economy. I attended German school. I learned to adapt to German toiletries and I can tell you, starting yur monthly cycles is strange and odd enough in America, but doing so in Germany where there was no Always or Tampax, it was startling for sure. I have no cause to make any of this up. I lived every moment of it. I was 11 when we moved back to Germany and 22 when we moved back. I feel more European then not, at times. Yes, they were Uzies. The same as the Polizei carry in the airports.

 

Were you 12 in Germany in the 1940s? Prior to the 1930s?  I was there starting in the mid 70s and I can tell you that they sure did have pads. Maybe not the "Always" brand because they didn't exist until 1983 but some brand.  And the modern tampons were surely invented in Germany - OB Tampons were German in origin prior to 1970 when they were bought out by Johnson and Johnson. 

 

And no WAY did your family get fined for having contraband food in WEST Germany. Half of Germany would be fined for THAT!

 

 

Your assertion that Germany didn't have pads and tampons when you were there, reminds me of the conversation my mother had with many Americans about whether or not she had indoor toilets when she was growing up.

 

 

ETA:  Maybe you meant that they didn't have your preferred brand of Always and Tampax?  Was that all that you and your family would use?  

[asta]

Actually, the MP5 (a German Submachine gun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP5) is the preferred weapon used, and it can look remarkably similar to an Uzi in some of its configurations so I can see the confusion - especially from the perspective of a 12 year old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzi).

 

I don't know when Regentrude was last in Germany, but I see MP5s on Police all.the.time. As the composition of the nation has changed (and the economic situation in Europe has significantly degraded), the Police have "up-armored" themselves. General city "walking police" carry 9mm semi-automatic pistols, but crowd control, demonstration (including "peaceful"), riot, etc., and airport police all carry MP5s. Even Oktoberfest police carry them.

 

As to the American/NATO products - yes, this DOES happen. Customs violations are big business for German States with the presence of the US and NATO military forces. Both parties take it very seriously, as it not only violates German Federal Law (Status of Forces Agreement), but also US military law. A US military member found guilty of violating customs agreements loses everything and goes to jail.

 

That the OPs family was approached in this manner is unfortunate, but was most likely part of an investigation involving a US or NATO Military member and got 'caught in the net' by having something in their house. It would not be the job of the German govt to tell the family this, only to fine them for "accepting" the American (or French - they have stores in Germany also) goods. (OP: you knew of Burger King wrappers; 8 hours & 1000 Marks points to your parents having accepted/paid someone to get them cigarettes, alcohol or gasoline, unfortunately).

 

There is a HUGE black market for NATO goods in Europe that come from the Military stores, as they are purchased without VAT and at a subsidized price due to money donated from other, internal Military recreation programs or through arrangements with manufacturers (e.g. Alcohol is MUCH less expensive minus the VAT).

 

 

Asta

[Tenaj]

 

I am not commenting on this particular case (the family that sought asylum in the US, right?), 

 

This isn't the same family that is seeking asylum in the US - that's the Romeike family (I may have spelled it incorrectly).

[mommaduck]

Didn't families who were (illegally) homeschooling in the US make homeschooling a legal possibility for those who came after? 

 

I don't like HSLDA, and I also expect consequences for breaking the law. However, as someone who lives in a country where homeschooling was illegal until last month, and where the public school system is simply inadequate in so many ways, I am surprised that there isn't more support or at least empathy for the situation in Germany. This board is full of people who value the importance of education and who value the options they have. Don't you think it would be nice if people in other countries had the same options?

 

I am not commenting on this particular case (the family that sought asylum in the US, right?), and the linked HSLDA page will not open for me. I also strongly dislike the Hitler references I have seen, but I want the same options and liberties that people in the US take for granted and I don't like the notion that laws must be followed simply because they are laws. I live in a corrupt country, and I like to point out that the laws are made by 250 people who break the laws they make on a daily basis. 

 

The difference is that there was a time when homeschooling in certain areas was neither legal nor illegal. It was an open question. Because it was not addressed in law, there were parents that started homeschooling. Because it was not addressed in law, there were those authorities that automatically assumed that SOP of society was the law. This is why it would be taken to court and fought time and again. This is why many states now have laws permitting, limiting, or defining home education. In Germany, it is flat out against the law...illegal, with dire consequences.

 

And to be honest, my family staying together where I have SOME impact on them is more important than losing them altogether for an ideal. And yes, HSLDA "offered" for me to become an "under the radar" family in a state where they want to change the laws (with one family in court and the hope that it would become a group thing). Nope, sorry, my family is not for exploitation. We dropped our membership after that.

[2biscuitsplz]

Oh, my goodness. I was 12. OB was one of the only brand do tampons. My mother would NOT let me use them. Plus, the thought of using them was gross. I used some local brand of pads, they had belt tabs in the front and back had NO waterproofing. It was just yucky to my young self. You have no idea what it was like growing up with no American fiends, no one to play or talk to, everything we changed odd different. I was in the Gymnasium school system and ill treated by the kids in my grade. I was not like them, if we out it into current terms, I was bullied. It was one of the worst events of my young life. I was the only girl in my clas that had her period. I was made fun off for taking my purse to the toilet, for wearing clean clothes daily, different then the day before.

Uzi or M5 it was pulled on us in an effort to make us submit.

The point is being missed. As Americans we have NO clear understanding of how life is in Germany. The two worlds and mid frames are very different. Things that we as Americans would NEVER tolerate are common place in Germany.

We as Americans draw our conclusions about what should or should not happen to this family. The laws are different in Germany and changing them to allow for this family to HS, would be tantamount to resurrecting the Titanic. My prayer is for these children to be back with their families. For them to find a place that they can live and work and raise their family in peace. If my history serves, isn't that how America was born? People looking for a place they could worship, raise families, and live in peace?

 

Not sure dissecting each sentence of my post is helping that family. I merely posted my experiences to help our American friends that have never lived any other place to see that things outside the USA are different and dramatically so.

By all means, dissect away. I know my experiences are true and real. You cannot discredit them. The search turned up nothing, we were not guilty of anything. We later months later after several more raids just like the first, that there was someone in town that hated my father for being a preacher and wanted him expelled. Not sure which hurt worse. My dad is incredible and would never hurt anyone. He sure had an enemy. And NO, there does not have to be any evidence.

Say what you will, I lived this.

[Laura Corin]

 Things that we as Americans would NEVER tolerate are common place in Germany.

 

 

And vice versa.

 

L

[Matryoshka]

Oh, my goodness. I was 12. OB was one of the only brand do tampons. My mother would NOT let me use them. Plus, the thought of using them was gross. I used some local brand of pads, they had belt tabs in the front and back had NO waterproofing. It was just yucky to my young self.

 

How many years ago was this?  When I was 17 I spent a year in Germany, and they had a brand identical to Always.  When I was 11 I also went to Germany for the summer - didn't have my cycle yet, but my mom packed "supplies" just in case - a belted pad just like the one you describe.  There was no Always in the US then either.  Fortunately by the time I got my cycle at 14 they at least had beltless Stayfree (but still no Always - they came a few years later).   I think it's highly probable that if you'd been in the US you'd have faced the same problem.

[regentrude]

How many years ago was this?  When I was 17 I spent a year in Germany, and they had a brand identical to Always.  When I was 11 I also went to Germany for the summer - didn't have my cycle yet, but my mom packed "supplies" just in case - a belted pad just like the one you describe.  There was no Always in the US then either.  Fortunately by the time I got my cycle at 14 they at least had beltless Stayfree (but still no Always - they came a few years later).   I think it's highly probable that if you'd been in the US you'd have faced the same problem.

 

The poster is 38 years old, so that was 26 years ago, 1987.

We had beltless adhesive pads even in East Germany (which was always years behind the West with anything new) at least since 1982.

[DawnM]

I keep reading that it used to be like this in the USA, but I can't seem to find actual stories of children taken away or parents jailed. Is there a book or document about this somewhere I can read? Please provide a link.

[Mom-ninja.]

  I think the hard battle here will be changing the minds of other German citizens.  We've all heard stories here on the board of people who have been roundly criticized and scorned for homeschooling their children.  In Germany, it is much worse.  Oh, the look of horror on the faces of my German friends and relatives when they hear I am homeschooling.  :-)  One of my cousins, however,  is not horrified at all, so there is hope for change.  She is a doctor, and she thought it was awesome how my kids were interested and asking questions about all sorts of medical things, that they had a true and natural interest in learning things that weren't mandated. 

 

I've had the opposite experience. My entire family there thinks it's cool that I home school. Each time we visit there and it comes about that I home school my kids the people (neighbors of my family, strangers in the store, at the park, cafes, and so forth) have all been fascinated with the idea. They see my kids and are impressed with what they see and hear. They usually ask a ton of questions and are genuinely interested in my answers unlike a lot of Americans who ask "loaded" questions because they really just want to defend their choice of schooling. I'm always more than happy to enter a conversation about homeschooling with Germans. I have yet to meet one German who has told me that they think home schooling is a horrible idea. They have all said something along the line of as long as there is some kind of accountability to ensure that the kids are getting an adequate education then more power to the super mom (or dad) who does it. I've had a few women tell me that they would not give up their hard earned careers to stay home to home school though. I can sympathize with that as there are days I feel it.

 

 

 

 

 

[albeto.]

I admire them their courage in trying to bring about change.  I pray that their family will be reunited and that they will be allowed to raise their kids in the manner they wish.  

 

I don't understand this as an act of courage. They let the state take their children rather than comply with the law and try to change things in such a way that would ensure their children living at home. This seems to me like their kids are pawns in their game, and I have a difficult time understanding it as anything noble. I guess I can see it if they had worked this out as a family and made arrangements for their kids to go live with relatives or friends in advance and this was all planned out, but I don't know if that was the case or not.

[Matryoshka]

The poster is 38 years old, so that was 26 years ago, 1987.

We had beltless adhesive pads even in East Germany (which was always years behind the West with anything new) at least since 1982.

Then that really makes no sense. It was 1982 when I was buying the Always-like pads in Germany -- complete with wings and super-absorbent core. I also shopped for them, and can't remember belted pads even being available for sale anymore at that time.