Jump to content

What's with the ads?


Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Children seized from homeschooling family in Germany


  • Please log in to reply
150 replies to this topic

What's with the ads?

#1 countrygal

countrygal

    Hive Mind Worker Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 480 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:13 AM

Thoughts? Is this typical?    http://www.hslda.org...y/201308300.asp



#2 LaxMom

LaxMom

    Apprentice Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 7345 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:21 AM

Well... German law requires children to be enrolled in state or private school. Families who choose to homeschool do so knowing their choice is illegal. It is the government's prerogative and responsibility to enforce the law, or change it.

I continue to be confused as to why Americans are so aghast at this. If you break the law, there are repercussions, are there not?

#3 swellmomma

swellmomma

    officially divorced! yup, I am single again!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12803 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:26 AM

Typical in what way? That hslda a jumped on to sensationalize it? Yes. Typical I'm how this raid happened? I don't know. Homeschooling is illegal in Germany and whether or not we agree with that they were breaking the law and accordingly were treated as criminals putting their kids at risk. I think they went over the top in this raid. I do think homeschooling should be legal there and families left intact. But I don't agree with hslda using stories like these to further their own agenda

#4 countrygal

countrygal

    Hive Mind Worker Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 480 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:28 AM

I meant are these raids typical in Germany.



#5 Jennifer3141

Jennifer3141

    Another overly-educated atheist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5337 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:31 AM

I meant are these raids typical in Germany.

 

If you do something illegal in a sovereign nation, I would expect said nation to respond accordingly.



#6 Starr

Starr

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12283 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:33 AM

This case has been talked about many times here on the boards.



#7 Parrothead

Parrothead

    A Gypsie in the Palace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 26093 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:43 AM

Well... German law requires children to be enrolled in state or private school. Families who choose to homeschool do so knowing their choice is illegal. It is the government's prerogative and responsibility to enforce the law, or change it.

I continue to be confused as to why Americans are so aghast at this. If you break the law, there are repercussions, are there not?


Probably because it wasn't so very long ago that seizures of children happened here. We forget how hard it was for the early homeschoolers, many of whom had their children taken or were sentenced to jail themselves.

Why is it we can have sympathy for them but not the people in other countries? Oh, well. They know the law. Suck it up.

#8 asta

asta

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4066 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:45 AM

Something that really ticks me off is the constant referencing of Hitler / Nazi Party, etc. in regards to the "outlawing" of homeschooling in Germany.

Homeschooling has been illegal in Germany since the Weimar Republic. The government needed to get the children out of the factories and farms and into the schools (the State) to accomplish two things: allow for more jobs for adults, and to create a future workforce that was literate and cognizant of the goals of the State.

This is the Prussian model of education, and is the basis for the system enacted by the Unied States, as well as many, many other nations.

Now, one can argue about the rightness / wrongness / morality of State indoctrination of children, but the reality is, all governments use methods to control the behavior of their populace. It just so happens that public schooling is one of the "easier" and/or "more convenient" ways to do that.

In Germany, the fabric of the culture and the political system relies on the multi-tiered education system. Despite the fear-mongering in the press, children are not forced into specific religious courses (there are countries in Europe where parents choose between different religions or "ethics" for one course a week). Additionally, the school day is much shorter in Germany than in the US, giving parents ample time to teach extra courses (most parents do after-schooling of some type).

Although it is often difficult to do, one must always be careful not to judge another country's actions from the perspective of one's OWN country. The US is not a Social Democracy with certain "blocks to be checked" (so to speak) - it is a Republic, and a very large one at that - with a history of States' rights that doesn't exist in Germany.


Asta

#9 PrincessMommy

PrincessMommy

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3666 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:46 AM

If you do something illegal in a sovereign nation, I would expect said nation to respond accordingly.

 

I agree to a point... I think the gov't has every right to enforce their laws, but the raid, as it was described, seems to have gone WAY over the top.  Was there any evidence that the family was violent and/or had guns in their possession?



#10 asta

asta

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4066 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:54 AM

I agree to a point... I think the gov't has every right to enforce their laws, but the raid, as it was described, seems to have gone WAY over the top. Was there any evidence that the family was violent and/or had guns in their possession?


There doesn't need to be.

Also: this family has been warned a gazillion times, gone through the courts, fled the country, etc.

You're only allowed to visit another country w/o a special visa for 90 days w/o getting in trouble. The govt probably has a warrant a meter long on them.


Asta

#11 musicianmom

musicianmom

    Hive Mind Level 6 Worker: Scout Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1191 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:55 AM

This case solidified my decision never to be a part of HSLDA, despite the fact that I technically agree with them on a lot of points. They used this family shamefully -- convinced them, I guess, that they would be the German version of the U.S. homeschooling pioneers and would pave the way for legal homeschooling in Germany, ignoring the very real cultural and governmental differences between the two nations. For the money HSLDA wasted on this travesty (now tragedy), they could have helped this family settle into a homeschool-friendly EU nation with no immigration issues.

I wish I had the nerve to say this on FB, but I would be shunned by all my hs friends.

#12 Parrothead

Parrothead

    A Gypsie in the Palace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 26093 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:55 AM

I agree to a point... I think the gov't has every right to enforce their laws, but the raid, as it was described, seems to have gone WAY over the top. Was there any evidence that the family was violent and/or had guns in their possession?

Agreed. If "use of force" means the same thing in Germany that it does in the US, the judge gave permission to law enforcement to shoot the children if they resisted.

Citing the parents’ failure to cooperate “with the authorities to send the children to school,” the judge also authorized the use of force “against the children” if necessary, reasoning that such force might be required because the children had “adopted the parents’ opinions” regarding homeschooling and that “no cooperation could be expected” from either the parents or the children.



#13 asta

asta

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4066 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:11 AM

ETA: I can't stress this enough - there does. not. need. to. be. --- guns, violence -- ANYTHING.

If you are living in a foreign nation that requires you to have "papers" on you at all times (like Germany) - sure, your average person is never going to have any contact with the police or whomever. They won't even think about their "papers" (identity card) - no more than an American would think about their driver's license. Except: they would NEVER leave home without it.

If a person is suspected of something, if they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, if they look like the group that was causing a disturbance - they better have their ID card, and there better not be anything in the computer about them.

***This is important: if a person argues with a policeman, that is grounds to "take them in." If they argue with them with PASSION -- flailing arms, etc. -- that is grounds for a policeman to bring them to the ground by any means necessary prior to taking them in. Keep fighting, you'll be introduced to a baton, a stun gun, whatever.

The rest of the world is not the United States. There is no Bill of Rights. When people complain about US police brutality, yeah, it's sad, but the rest of the world only dreams of the protections US citizens have - even with isolated incidents.


A

#14 TammyinVA

TammyinVA

    Nana Banana

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5181 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:14 AM

They know it's illegal..why didn't the move to a different country?!  

 

And yes...in Germany they take compliance to laws very seriously! 



#15 regentrude

regentrude

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14084 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:19 AM

If you are living in a foreign nation that requires you to have "papers" on you at all times (like Germany) - sure, your average person is never going to have any contact with the police or whomever. They won't even think about their "papers" (identity card) - no more than an American would think about their driver's license. Except: they would NEVER leave home without it.

 

The above in incorrect.

Germany does not require people to carry their identity card or passport with them at all times. The law only requires that you possess either an identity card or a passport, and are able to provide it to authorities upon request, but you can retrieve it from home.

(Many people opt to obtain only a passport and not the identity card, and nobody carries their passport around).



#16 regentrude

regentrude

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14084 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:20 AM

They know it's illegal..why didn't the move to a different country?!  

 

They tried, but the father was unable to find work, thus they returned.



#17 PrincessMommy

PrincessMommy

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3666 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:22 AM

This case solidified my decision never to be a part of HSLDA, despite the fact that I technically agree with them on a lot of points. They used this family shamefully -- convinced them, I guess, that they would be the German version of the U.S. homeschooling pioneers and would pave the way for legal homeschooling in Germany, ignoring the very real cultural and governmental differences between the two nations. For the money HSLDA wasted on this travesty (now tragedy), they could have helped this family settle into a homeschool-friendly EU nation with no immigration issues.

I wish I had the nerve to say this on FB, but I would be shunned by all my hs friends.

 

then again you may find a kindred spirit.

 

I think Farris getting involved is weird, insulting, and opportunistic.   I wonder how  your friends would feel if a German lawyer came here to America to change one of our laws.
 



#18 asta

asta

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4066 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:26 AM

The above in incorrect.
Germany does not require people to carry their identity card or passport with them at all times. The law only requires that you possess either an identity card or a passport, and are able to provide it to authorities upon request, but you can retrieve it from home.
(Many people opt to obtain only a passport and not the identity card, and nobody carries their passport around).


My mistake - I was thinking of the residence permit.


A

#19 Serenade

Serenade

    Hive Mind Royal Larvae

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1533 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:37 AM

They know it's illegal..why didn't the move to a different country?!  

 

 

The article said the family did move to a different country, but he was unable to find a job.

 

He probably should have left his wife and kids in the other country, and returned to Germany by himself in order to work and generate income. 

 

I think German families who want to homeschool are stuck between a rock and a hard place.  If they don't want to live in a different country with a different language, they either have to put their kids in school, or risk having their children removed.  If they truly want to affect a change, then yes, they have to subject their family to being torn apart.  Merely moving to another country is not going to get the law changed.  Petitioning for the right to homeschool is not going to change the law, either.  It's going to take a lot more events like the one described in the article before change happens.  And a lot more people are going to have to sacrifice their families in order to make a big enough commotion that the German government might consider a change.  I think the hard battle here will be changing the minds of other German citizens.  We've all heard stories here on the board of people who have been roundly criticized and scorned for homeschooling their children.  In Germany, it is much worse.  Oh, the look of horror on the faces of my German friends and relatives when they hear I am homeschooling.  :-)  One of my cousins, however,  is not horrified at all, so there is hope for change.  She is a doctor, and she thought it was awesome how my kids were interested and asking questions about all sorts of medical things, that they had a true and natural interest in learning things that weren't mandated. 

 

As someone mentioned up thread, it wasn't that long ago that US families had to fly under the radar in order to homeschool, too.  A lot of families were willing to take a risk in order to make a better situation for homeschooling families in the future.



#20 swellmomma

swellmomma

    officially divorced! yup, I am single again!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12803 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:42 AM

They know it's illegal..why didn't the move to a different country?!  

 

And yes...in Germany they take compliance to laws very seriously! 

They did, they moved a few times but they were trying to {claim asylum from persecution and that claim was rejected because homeschooling is not a civil right}-ETA I mixed up the 2 families, it was the other one that wanted asylum, this one couldn't find work.  Education may be, but having the privilege to do that from home is a whole other matter. Eventually they had no choice but to move back.  And then the children's passports were removed from the parents to prevent them from fleeing again. 

 

Even in the US, Canada etc, homeschooling is a priviledge, it is legal here, but if it is believed you are failing to provide an adequate education you can be denied the privilege to home educate.  You don't get to claim persecution and that home educating is a right.

 

The fact is they knew the laws, they knowingly broke them.  The gov't gave them repeated chances to abide by those laws, the family refused.  The gov't allowed them to keep their children even after the family broke the laws and it sounds like their first priority had been to keep the family unit together but when you add in that the family fled the country, repeatly ignored orders from teh gov't to enroll the kids in school etc the gov't felt they had no choice but to apprehend the children.

Weapons were not used against the children.  Yes it said remove them by force order was given, but then it said the 14 yr old was removed by force after refusing to comply.  The force was being marched along between 2 large police officers. The order did not say deadly force, just force.  If they had to physically pick up the children, put them in handcuffs or other such things that would constitute force as well. 

Let's say mom and pop out here decide to start a grow op.  It is a known illegal activity that many feel should be legal and their right to do what they wish on their own property.  Let's say CPS gets wind of this.  They determine the children are otherwise cared for and try to work with the family to keep the family unit together.  The parents are ordered to dismantle the grow op, find legal ways to earn a living and abide by the laws of the country.  The parents not only refuse but they decide to take the children and run for a while.  When they return they go right back to their old ways, and a new grow op is developed.  Authorities watch this with trepidation, give the family one more chance to comply but the family refuses.  A judge orders the children be removed from their home for their own well being.  The children have never been neglected or abused, the family just wanted to earn a living to support them and provide opportunities.  But the fact is, it is illegal to grow MJ, it is the belief of the gov't that the children can not live in that home and still receive the best upbringing. 

Now of course growing MJ and homeschooling are not at all the same thing.  But both are things that are illegal in certain countries, both are things many believe should be legal, and both are things that people in other countries can not understand why they remain illegal.  So that is why I used that as my comparison.  If you break the law you pay the price.  If the authorities believe your children are not merely victims any longer but have been brainwashed/raised to not only go along with said illegal activity but to fully support it and fight for it than the gov't may decide to treat your children as a hostile too rather than a victim. 

I do not support Germany's belief that homeschooling should be illegal and children being taught at home should be removed from the home, BUT the fact is that is current way things are.  This family was not singled out just to be picked on.  I think they were given so many chances to comply with the laws, and they decided to do what they wished anyway.  I am sure th gov't felt it had no other options if it was to protect the children.

I would not wish a raid like that on anyone, but it is what it is.  No one was harmed in the raid other than emotionally.  No one was tasered, beaten, shot etc.  They were detained, and the children removed which is hard for sure but I do not see where this family has been mistreated given they continually walked all over the country's laws.  If I was a german I would be wondering why they thought they were such special snowflakes that the laws did not pertain to them.  But I am not, as a Canadian I don't think it is fair, but it is what it is. 



#21 Annie Mae

Annie Mae

    Hive Mind Worker Bee

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 70 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:47 AM

There doesn't need to be.

Also: this family has been warned a gazillion times, gone through the courts, fled the country, etc.

You're only allowed to visit another country w/o a special visa for 90 days w/o getting in trouble. The govt probably has a warrant a meter long on them.


Asta

 

Actually all Europeans within the European Union, including Germans can travel, live and work freely within the EU with out any visa, and they can do so whenever and however long they like.

 

Some EU countries can be very heavy handed when it comes to home schooling. That's socialism for you!



#22 JanOH

JanOH

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1810 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:48 AM

The article said the family did move to a different country, but he was unable to find a job.

 

He probably should have left his wife and kids in the other country, and returned to Germany by himself in order to work and generate income. 

 

I think German families who want to homeschool are stuck between a rock and a hard place.  If they don't want to live in a different country with a different language, they either have to put their kids in school, or risk having their children removed.  If they truly want to affect a change, then yes, they have to subject their family to being torn apart.  Merely moving to another country is not going to get the law changed.  Petitioning for the right to homeschool is not going to change the law, either.  It's going to take a lot more events like the one described in the article before change happens.  And a lot more people are going to have to sacrifice their families in order to make a big enough commotion that the German government might consider a change.  I think the hard battle here will be changing the minds of other German citizens.  We've all heard stories here on the board of people who have been roundly criticized and scorned for homeschooling their children.  In Germany, it is much worse.  Oh, the look of horror on the faces of my German friends and relatives when they hear I am homeschooling.  :-)  One of my cousins, however,  is not horrified at all, so there is hope for change.  She is a doctor, and she thought it was awesome how my kids were interested and asking questions about all sorts of medical things, that they had a true and natural interest in learning things that weren't mandated. 

 

As someone mentioned up thread, it wasn't that long ago that US families had to fly under the radar in order to homeschool, too.  A lot of families were willing to take a risk in order to make a better situation for homeschooling families in the future.

 

This.   People in the United States at the beginning of the homeschool movement spent time in jail and I'll always be thankful to them for opening up the way for me to homeschool without that risk.  I'll continue to support the Wunderlich's in Germany because they are willing to do something about a law that is infringing on their right to raise their kids in the way they wish.  I'll also continue to support HSLDA in their quest to assist them legally to bring about change.  

 

When the Romeike family (who is seeking asylum here in the United States) were discussed here, the argument against their remaining here in the states was that they could 'easily' go to any other country in the European union and continue to homeschool.  Well, here's a family that took that advice and then couldn't find employment and had to return to their homeland.   

 

I admire them their courage in trying to bring about change.  I pray that their family will be reunited and that they will be allowed to raise their kids in the manner they wish.  



#23 JanOH

JanOH

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1810 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:51 AM

 

I would not wish a raid like that on anyone, but it is what it is.  No one was harmed in the raid other than emotionally.  No one was tasered, beaten, shot etc.  They were detained, and the children removed which is hard for sure but I do not see where this family has been mistreated given they continually walked all over the country's laws.  If I was a german I would be wondering why they thought they were such special snowflakes that the laws did not pertain to them.  But I am not, as a Canadian I don't think it is fair, but it is what it is. 

 

 

Do you realize why you have the right to homeschool here in the United States?  It's because people thought that they were "special snowflakes" and fought to change the laws risking prison and fines, and "walked all over the country's laws".

 

Sorry, just realized you were Canadian.  Did Canadian homeschooler's have to fight for the right to homeschool when the movement first started?



#24 LisaK in VA is in Italy

LisaK in VA is in Italy

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4945 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:53 AM

I thought this was a different case from the asylum case...am I wrong?

 

I thought you didn't have to claim asylum when a EU national was moving to another EU country...am I wrong?

 

But...I do think the only option the family really had was to split up...family stay where HS was legal...father work wherever he could...although i'm wondering if Germany would have been able to arrest him anyhow...



#25 67_others

67_others

    Empress Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5964 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:56 AM

Probably because it wasn't so very long ago that seizures of children happened here. We forget how hard it was for the early homeschoolers, many of whom had their children taken or were sentenced to jail themselves.

Why is it we can have sympathy for them but not the people in other countries? Oh, well. They know the law. Suck it up.

 

:iagree:  This board is the only place where I witnessed this kind of a reaction to German homeschoolers, and it doesn't even make sense. 

 

 

Is it coming, in some twisted way, from the collective hatred of HSLD? Is it an "in" joke that hasn't ever been funny?

 

There are many horrifying unjust laws all over the world, and most people don't say "that's their law, too bad for them." What a callous, rigid, inhumane would that would be.



#26 swellmomma

swellmomma

    officially divorced! yup, I am single again!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12803 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:57 AM

Do you realize why you have the right to homeschool here in the United States?  It's because people thought that they were "special snowflakes" and fought to change the laws risking prison and fines, and "walked all over the country's laws".

Actually I am Canadian so no I don't have the right to homeschool in the USA.  I said that if I was a german that is what I would think, not that I personally do.



#27 BLA5

BLA5

    Frost-er of the Cupcakes Lover of the Visible Likes

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3653 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:06 AM

All any of us can do, whatever our country of residence, is evaluate our available options and choose what we believe to have the best risk/reward ratio for our situation. I am sure that is what this family did.

I can sympathize for them being separated.

I can hope for the eventual recognition of Homeschooling as a valid form of education in other countries.

I can be grateful to those early homeschoolers here in the US for what they did.

I can recognize that the cultural and governmental structures of some countries make that change almost impossible and possibly unwise.


What I cannot fathom is how the HSLDA's actions in this situation have benefitted anyone other than, at the risk of sounding like a hater, the HSLDA.

#28 67_others

67_others

    Empress Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5964 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:06 AM

Well... German law requires children to be enrolled in state or private school. Families who choose to homeschool do so knowing their choice is illegal. It is the government's prerogative and responsibility to enforce the law, or change it.

I continue to be confused as to why Americans are so aghast at this. If you break the law, there are repercussions, are there not?

This is one of the reasons Americans (and Canadians) are so aghast at this. That is, Americans (and Canadians) who still remember what happened quite recently. Because "not speaking" and saying "Oh, that's not our law, we are so comfortable and far away over the ocean," isn't anything new.   

 

"First They Came for the Jews" 
By Pastor Niemoller

 

 

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.



#29 swellmomma

swellmomma

    officially divorced! yup, I am single again!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12803 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:08 AM

Do you realize why you have the right to homeschool here in the United States?  It's because people thought that they were "special snowflakes" and fought to change the laws risking prison and fines, and "walked all over the country's laws".

 

Sorry, just realized you were Canadian.  Did Canadian homeschooler's have to fight for the right to homeschool when the movement first started?

no, homeschooling has always been legal in Canada.  some provinces have always required more over sight than others, some support homeschooling so much they provide funding for homeschoolers to use to buy curriculum, supplies, pay for lessons etc.  Although it has always been legal, there was issues with busy bodies reporting to cps or for truancy, which still happens these days. But since it was legal parents could not be charged etc.

ETA in 1982 it Canadian charter of rights and freedoms was written and in it homeschooling is actually deemed a right.  Specifically education of the child is, but that it is up to parents to determine where that education will take place.  Now that doesn't stop over zealous cps workers with their own agenda to push and claim neglect etc but because it is deemed a right in Canada barring other forms of neglect or abuse there is nothing to be done about it.

 



#30 bolt.

bolt.

    Hive Mind Level 4 Worker: Builder Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2156 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:12 AM

I think "use of force" means simply that the child can be picked up and forcibly relocated, possibly restrained -- that sort of thing. It's probably a standard authorization used in cases where children must be removed from abusive families, that the child might not be happy to be rescued, running from the officers, hiding, clinging to a parent etc. and might need to be forcibly rescued, even if there's some risk of the child being injured in the altercation. The authorities probably consider this a basic removal according to their definition of what we would call "educational neglect".

 

Not that I think homeschooling is equivalent to abuse! Just that it sounds like they are drawing on their standard family intervention procedures and language when they need to remove children. 20 social workers, police and specialized agents sounds like some kind of a ratio -- a very strong and helpful ratio, perhaps with nurses, counselors and other types of workers available for each child, right on site. (4 children, maybe 3 workers each, plus a couple of supervisors/co-coordinators, and the police and backup? That seems reasonable.)

 

Yes, somebody "called it" a “brutal and vicious act,” -- but the actual fact of removing children unnecessarily can be called "brutal and vicious". It is a terrible thing to do to a family without justification, and is inherently violent. However, no brutality was described in any of the details provided. In fact, the "raid" rang the doorbell, and subsequently made sure that the father remained still, sitting in a chair, using no more force than many parents use to keep small children in a 'naughty seat'. It's not really my idea of police brutality. The undisclosed location and isolation of the children from their parents is exactly what we would expect when children are removed from abusive families, we just don't categorize this family as abusive.

 

There are countries where you can't manhandle or restrain a child that way without specific authorization... which is probably a good thing. To shoot the children, one would require the authorization of *deadly* force.

 

Homeschooling is not a basic human right (certainly not one 'of the highest order'!) and is not something that is externally imposed on any nation by the international community. The violation of the 'right to home-school' is not a reason for the world to begin rescue/escape efforts for oppressed citizens of Germany. The only thing of international concern is (if) there were passports seized. I'd need more information to tell if this was a real seizure of passports or merely normal immigration procedures that include temporary passport stuff.

 

The best thing the HSLDA could do for this family is fund local legal help (of the non-combative type) for the family, encourage them to get their kids back by following the law, and stay out of things so that publicity and American interference doesn't prejudice the whole German system against this poor family. Additionally, they could help by facilitating just one job for this man in the entire European union. That doesn't sound hard... it's just harder than raising a stink and perusing their own agenda at other people's expense.



#31 musicianmom

musicianmom

    Hive Mind Level 6 Worker: Scout Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1191 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:15 AM

My apologies. I did not realize this was a different family than the one who was denied asylum in the U.S.

#32 Cricket

Cricket

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2681 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:17 AM

Do you realize why you have the right to homeschool here in the United States? It's because people thought that they were "special snowflakes" and fought to change the laws risking prison and fines, and "walked all over the country's laws".

Sorry, just realized you were Canadian. Did Canadian homeschooler's have to fight for the right to homeschool when the movement first started?


The lack of compassion is a little startlingly. If no one stood up to change laws, where would we be? We just celebrated the 50 year anniversary of MLK's speech in Washington. As people watched others being mowed down with fire hoses and arrested, should they have just said, " Oh well, they knew the law! Should have known better!" Yikes.

#33 bolt.

bolt.

    Hive Mind Level 4 Worker: Builder Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2156 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:24 AM

I believe one changes laws by abiding within them as much as possible, while agitating for change through normal means (peaceful protest, petition, publicity etc). It is clear that (among others) 'the gay community' can change laws by these methods, right? Why is the homeschooling community in need of more extreme and risky measures?

 

Peacful non-compliance is risky. I believe it is too risky to involve children in. I do not believe that one works to change laws by blatantly putting one's children at risk of being legally apprehended and then all-but daring the state to follow through. If one's family comes first, one does not risk them in the pursuit of an ideology.

 

As far as I know, there is no law against peaceable assembly, and a fire-hose response to such an assembly was indeed an act of police brutality. It's a comparison that does not work for me.



#34 swellmomma

swellmomma

    officially divorced! yup, I am single again!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12803 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:29 AM

But comparing slavery which is a violation to human rights, and homeschooling is silly.  I don't see anyone saying they agree with the laws, but homeschooling is not a human right despite what you may want.  Education absolutely is imo, and in Countries such as germany (and there are many others, we just don't hear about them like this), maintain that, the education to be received will be within the gov't schools.  One can fight for change, and still abide by the laws currently constraining them.  As a parent I do not understand the thought of "well I think this is best for my kids even if they get taken away and I get thrown in jail".  How is that possibly best for the kids? abide by the laws which ensure they are educated, this is not an oppression keeping them from being equal to all other citizens, and fight for change as well.  The 2 do not need to be mutually exclusive imo.  I am not seeing anyone in this thread lacking compassion, nor claiming that change should not occur.  What I am seeing, and am saying myself, is they were given ample chances to keep their children by abiding by the law, they opted not to do so and the kids were taken.  They were warned, given LOTS of time to comply and then consequences occured.  Do I think the situation is fair? no.  Have I or anyone here said they support the decision of the german officials? no  Have I and others said they will not support HSLDA's involvement in this case? absolutely.  One does not need to support them to think change needs to occur.  That does not mean there is a lack of compassion or overall support for the family.

COmparing this family to MLK or other civil rights leaders is a stretch.  An equal stretch imo as calling the gov't officials nazi's.  Homeschooling is not a civil right (well except for in Canada) . THe gov't maintaining their right to uphold the laws of the land does not equal them being nazi's. those things are not created equal, its like comparing apples and oranges.



#35 Laura Corin

Laura Corin

    ☢ She Who Schoolmarms Bees

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16840 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:36 AM

Do I think that adults should agitate to change laws within their own countries that they believe to be unjust?  Definitely.  Do I think that those adults should sacrifice their own children in pursuit of that change?  No.  Responsibility for the children comes first.  The children could have been living safely at home with their parents if they had been put into school (Christian school if the parents wished).

 

Up thread, someone talked about how lacking in compassion people are who say that citizens/residents should obey the laws of the land.  I am full of compassion for the children in these cases, but not so much for the parents.  Germany is not a tyranny, it is not a land in the middle of a civil war.  It is a modern democracy within which voters may elect legislators to change laws.  I feel strongly the privilege of living in such a country and acknowledge that this privilege comes with a duty to obey the laws supported by the majority, or work peacefully for change.

 

L



#36 Ellie

Ellie

    Beekeeping Professor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22530 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:40 AM

I continue to be confused as to why Americans are so aghast at this. If you break the law, there are repercussions, are there not?

 

In the U.S,, rarely is SWAT sent in to remove children from their parents merely because they are homeschooling.



#37 chiguirre

chiguirre

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4956 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:52 AM

The lack of compassion is a little startlingly. If no one stood up to change laws, where would we be? We just celebrated the 50 year anniversary of MLK's speech in Washington. As people watched others being mowed down with fire hoses and arrested, should they have just said, " Oh well, they knew the law! Should have known better!" Yikes.

MLK was an American. Michael Farris is not a German. If Germans want to protest to make homeschooling legal, they should do that. But it really needs to be a German grassroots movement, not an HSLDA backed astroturf movement.



#38 asta

asta

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4066 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:58 AM

Actually all Europeans within the European Union, including Germans can travel, live and work freely within the EU with out any visa, and they can do so whenever and however long they like.

Some EU countries can be very heavy handed when it comes to home schooling. That's socialism for you!


I was actually referring to an EU resident traveling to the US. The can't stay longer than 90 days or work there w/o a non-tourist visa.

What I never understood about this whole case was why he didn't just plop his family on the other side of the French border and remain working in Germany. That's what most people do...


A

#39 asta

asta

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4066 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:02 AM

As far as I know, there is no law against peaceable assembly


No, but you do need a permit. ;)


A

#40 SKL

SKL

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11561 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:02 AM

I personally would suck it up and comply with the laws if the alternative was to have my kids taken away.  I have been told this makes me a complete wuss.  I can live with that.

 

I don't know why that family was homeschooling, but unless it was due to some unique critical need of their kid(s), I can't see risking the disruption of having kids separated from their parents.  Whether the German law is wrong is up for discussion, but disrupting custody of kids can create big problems over the long term.  Especially when coupled with the inevitable reality that they will now have to go to that strange, scary place we call school.



#41 asta

asta

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4066 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:03 AM

Dp

#42 QueenCath

QueenCath

    Queen of La La Land

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6702 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:04 AM

Agreed. If "use of force" means the same thing in Germany that it does in the US, the judge gave permission to law enforcement to shoot the children if they resisted.
 

 

I hadn't seen this in any of the articles I've read on this case. Stuns me to think that could be true. Where did you see it? I'd love to see the article.



#43 67_others

67_others

    Empress Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5964 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:07 AM

MLK was an American. Michael Farris is not a German. If Germans want to protest to make homeschooling legal, they should do that. But it really needs to be a German grassroots movement, not an HSLDA backed astroturf movement.

 

There have always been organizations  that make it their business to fight human rights abuses in other countries, such as Amnesty International. It is often foreign pressure that motivates governments to change their backwards laws.  

 

What about the international outrage about Russia's anti "gay propaganda" laws and boycotting the Olympics? Not many people are saying that it isn't "our" business. 



#44 regentrude

regentrude

    Qualified Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14084 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:14 AM

There have always been organizations  that make it their business to fight human rights abuses in other countries, such as Amnesty International. It is often foreign pressure that motivates governments to change their backwards laws.  

What about the international outrage about Russia's anti "gay propaganda" laws and boycotting the Olympics? Not many people are saying that it isn't "our" business. 

 

The situation is not quite comparable, unless you believe that being gay is a lifestyle choice like homeschooling, and not based on an underlying biological disposition. A person can choose to follow the law and send his kids to school. A person can not choose whether he wants to be heterosexual or homosexual (yes, I know some religious people will disagree).



#45 swellmomma

swellmomma

    officially divorced! yup, I am single again!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12803 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:17 AM

There have always been organizations  that make it their business to fight human rights abuses in other countries, such as Amnesty International. It is often foreign pressure that motivates governments to change their backwards laws.  

 

What about the international outrage about Russia's anti "gay propaganda" laws and boycotting the Olympics? Not many people are saying that it isn't "our" business. 

But again homeschooling is not a human right, this is not a human rights abuse situation. Nor is it a hate crime which the anti-gay propaganda was.  Homeschooling even in countries where it is legal is still a privilege imo not a human right. 



#46 Annie Mae

Annie Mae

    Hive Mind Worker Bee

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 70 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:19 AM

I was actually referring to an EU resident traveling to the US. The can't stay longer than 90 days or work there w/o a non-tourist visa.

What I never understood about this whole case was why he didn't just plop his family on the other side of the French border and remain working in Germany. That's what most people do...


A

 

Sorry Asta, I misunderstood you. 

 

I have to agree with your other point though. If this were my family my husband would have stayed in Germany to work and I would have moved over the border. 

 

As it happens we were living in Spain at one point where home schooling is officially legal but usually families are denied permission. Rather than risk it we left Spain. I personally would not use my children to forward home schooling ideals and I wouldn't run the risk of having them taken into care. 

 

That said, I think families should have the right to bring their children up however they please without interference from government. Unfortunately, nowadays many governments feel they can poke their noses in where they shouldn't.



#47 puddles

puddles

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1474 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:36 AM

But again homeschooling is not a human right, this is not a human rights abuse situation. Nor is it a hate crime which the anti-gay propaganda was.  Homeschooling even in countries where it is legal is still a privilege imo not a human right. 

 

Why should it be just a privilege not a right? Children belong to parents not the government. Why should any government have the right to say how children are being educated?



#48 liber

liber

    Hive Mind Larvae

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 231 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:46 AM

Swellmomma, hsing in Alberta used to be illegal. Our former pastor there had a brother who started homeschooling when it was. The brother and a few other families broke the law in order to force change.

#49 Parrothead

Parrothead

    A Gypsie in the Palace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 26093 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:50 AM

I hadn't seen this in any of the articles I've read on this case. Stuns me to think that could be true. Where did you see it? I'd love to see the article.


The quote in my post was from the article from the OP. I don't remember what paragraph, maybe 6 or 7 .

#50 liber

liber

    Hive Mind Larvae

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 231 posts

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:54 AM

Why should it be just a privilege not a right? Children belong to parents not the government. Why should any government have the right to say how children are being educated?


I agree with this. I just don't understand why people seem so willing to let government dictate to them. Sometimes the law is an ass. I personally don't believe laws and government should be obeyed without question. Too sheeple like for me.


What's with the ads?