Jousting Armadillos users. . . tell me about it?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Ok, so I finally checked out this program, and I really like the looks of it.

 

http://www.arborcenterforteaching.org/publications/books/jousting-armadillos/

 

Here's what appeals to me:  I like that it explains prealgebra & algebra conceptually - but it seems to be less wordy (and, frankly, less difficult) than AoPS while still focusing on problem-solving, puzzles, and what math is really all about, rather than on memorizing & copying algorithms.  I like that it's based on Jacobs (I really like Jacobs) and that it has humor and interesting puzzles like Jacobs, but a more approachable scope-and-sequence for a youngster.  I like that it's a connected narrative, which is great for my highly verbal kids, but it seems to be less goofy and more coherent than LOF (which is starting to get on my nerves).

 

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone who has been using it for a bit can tell me their impressions so far?  

 

In particular, I'd love to hear how it compares to other similar things - like AoPS PreA, Zaccaro, LOF (or anything else you think it's similar to).

 

Thanks!

[momto2Cs]

:bigear:  I just got a copy for ds12, and would love to hear more about it from people who have used it already!

[Chrysalis Academy]

What do you think of it so far??? 

[rdj2027]

I have been using for a few months with my two youngest (then 4th and 6th grade).  My children and I love it because it is discovery based, not distracting in its outlay, incorporates hands-on activities, allows my son to move and makes may daughter think.  We all appreciate the light tone and the way historical characters and events are a make-up of many problems (leads to lots of discussions).  I use it in conjunction with AOPS for my son and Math Mammoth for my daughter.  Both of my kids are strong math students.  My son is a visual-spatial-kinesthetic learner on the very end of the spectrum, my daughter does well but is "brain" lazy, she does not like think or put effort into her work.  JA makes her think and the way it is worded makes the pill go down much easier, she actually does enjoy it especially when she gets through the problem before her brother does. I personally have no problem to adapt the class activities to our rather small group.

 

JA does not work well for my Aspie 8th grader who prefers straight, frontal instruction.  The humor is lost on him, he hates any hands-on activity (yes, we are having a swell time with science labs  :crying: ) and has little patience with the language approach.

 

I personally also like the fact that it comes in three books rather than one thick one, makes it easier to handle for me.

 

The customer service is fantastic, we had some major issues with math in this house when we began homeschooling a year ago and Linus has been a lot of help.  Their newsletter is wonderful and we used several activities already.  

 

Feel free to pm me if you have specific questions.

 

Diane

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Diane, thanks so much!  Can you tell me how you are combining it with MM/AoPS?  Do you alternate days, or do them both? It almost looks like you could use JA once a week and another program the other days, do you think that's possible?  

 

I'm not in any particular rush, but I do want to keep doing MM - I realize after this morning's attempts to work in Zaccaro's Ten Things that dd has completely forgotten percents.  It was kind of frustrating, but it reiterates my feeling that she does need to go ahead and keep working through MM6 - she needs to get more solid on percents and ratios, and I think MM teaches that well.  I didn't see it explicitly covered in JA.  On the other hand, JA is much heavier on the actual preAlgebra/Algebra part.  It strikes me that they could be compatible, and that JA would really appeal to my dd.  LOF is getting so random, and while she likes the Danica McKellar books, they are so very girly, flirty, and chatty . . . I just like the looks of JA so much more than both of those.  

 

This dd does really thrive with the narrative/conceptual/big picture/whole-to-parts approach - she learns things better if they are explained verbally, in big picture context.  Discovery is fine, but it needs to be explicitly connected to a context once it's been discovered.  That's what appealed to me about Jacobs for her in the first place - and what has me a little nervous about AoPS, because I feel like it's too wordy and involved for her at this point (at least the PreA book, that's the only one I currently own).

 

MM does a great job of teaching the how, but it doesn't contain this narrative/big picture/why part.  That's why I'm looking for supplements to it in the first place.

 

Anyway, thanks for your advice!

[rdj2027]

I use AOPS sequentially and find the corresponding chapter in JA (I only have the first volume right now and he is doing pre-algebra with AOPS).  I introduce the topic with JA and go through the unit.  He is a whole to parts learner and understands the concept generally speaking fairly easily so it doesn't take us long and it helps him move through AOPS faster because he already understands the concept but AOPS takes it to a higher level.  The hands-on activities make a huge difference in his understanding.  Now that he has understood the concept, he is ready to "theorize" with AOPS. He loves AOPS but it poses a definite language problem for him, JA is his translator.

 

When we are done with a concept/chapter I have him write the Notes to Self.  He does all the problems in AOPS and most Challenge Problems.  

 

Where MM is concerned I again follow the sequence of MM but here JA expands on MM rather than being the baseline.  She does well with math but JA is less "formulaic" in my opinion, it dwells more on explaining in words what the student does than MM.  She does a topic in MM and then we follow up in JA so there is definitely more jumping around because the sequence is so different.  If she continues at her present pace, she will finish MM5 and 6 this year in 5th grade but I am not sure that next summer she will be ready for a straight pre-algebra text where maturity is concerned.  JA with its language style allows me to slow her down a little with all its "Whys?" and " What do you think?" questions and have her work at a higher level. Her biggest issue is that she understands the concept, she understands why the concept works but she doesn't always quite know why SHE does the things she does other than "it's what the sample in MM shows" or "that's how it's done".

 

The beginning of JA was great for her, "How do you know you know?".  It really made her question herself as to why she did things and see that there is a difference between knowing and understanding.

 

Diane

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Wow, this sounds like it would be really great for my dd!  Both of what you said - using it to expand MM and get more into the why, and using it to help explain the concept before diving into the deeper coverage of AoPS.

 

I know I don't really need a . . .what, 6th thing? for math, but this really, really appeals to me.  I got really great responses from the author to my email, too, and he points out that you can try it 60 days for free . . . so what could go wrong, right?

 

And, truth?  Even if it isn't a perfect fit for my kids, it sounds like a good fit for *me* and I'm realizing that I really need to spend more time brushing up on my own weak areas in math . . .which is mostly problem-solving.  I worry that it's going to get to be the blind leading the blind around here pretty soon.  I do not understand how I got this far in my life with so many gaping holes in my conceptual understanding of math.  I'm not afraid of it, I know I can learn it, but there is so much I just . . don't. . . know. . . .  :sad: and when I look at a word problem, and don't have the first clue how to solve it, it really worries me for my future ability to actually teach math to my kids, in the way they deserve.  Well, ok, I can do the 2nd grader, but the 6th grader is already working on stuff that makes me go, "Huh???"

 

[momto2Cs]

Diane,

 

Do you have just the student text for JA, or the teacher text/answer text as well?

[Chrysalis Academy]

I just ordered JA, I'm very eager to take a look at it!

[rdj2027]

Mom,

 

I have the teacher guide/solution manual but have never actually used it.  I am a little OCD when it comes to have complete sets.  The solution manual isn't really what most of us are used to, it is a compilation of how students have solved the problems.  I will say that I have read it and frequently look at it just because I find it interesting how different children approach a problem.

 

My inkling is that most of us can teach with just the student text. 

[Pen]

We used it over summer to some degree.   Like a pp my ds also liked the beginning "how do you know what you know" part.  One of its strongest parts, IMO = the "Notes to Self."  It asks the student to write a summary of what they learned.   However, this was a difficulty in that ds did not like to write them...ds seems to be preferring AoPS (got Intro, not pre, algebra) which has very little to write, but the JA is a good resource for me/him as we find places where he still needs more than AoPS gives.  The solutions manual is interesting to just get to see what some other kids gave as answers, especially in this case since they'd be about same age as my ds--but is not necessary so far as I could see.  Ratios and Percents get covered in the AoPS Intro to Algebra, and it looks to me like that will be where ds will get solid on those areas.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I just wanted to update, we've been using JA for a week now alongside MM.  I love it!  I love, love, love this gentler version of the discovery approach as compared to AoPS PreA.  You still get led to discover the concept by interesting questions, puzzles, and activities, but it's not so, I don't know, abrupt, or difficult.  The questions are interesting and challenging, but they are solvable fairly easily, so that you get the charge of figuring something out and you get the eureka moment of discovery, without all the frustration of grappling with a problem that is really, really hard.  This is a much better approach for my dd than AoPS PreA at this point in time.   MM6 was not enough, AoPS was a little too much, but this seems just right.

 

So the plan now for our PreA mashup is to spend the first part of the year on the first three chapters of JA and on MM6, reviewing and ensuring mastery of all the basics - fractions, decimals, percents, ratios, integers.  Then the middle part of the year using JA and other resources to work on basic equations & inequalities, then at the end of the year cover geometry & counting/probability using AoPS preA.  Then we'll be ready to tackle Algebra.  I'm feeling great about this plan!  Thanks to Pen and Diane for talking to me about how you use JA, I'm very glad I got it, and like you guys said, the customer service & support from the author is fabulous!

[rdj2027]

You are most welcome :-)

 

Diane

[Pen]

I'm glad it is working for you!!!  It's great when one gets the Goldie Locks golden mean, not too hard, not too easy, not too ____, not too ____, but This Is Just Right feeling.

 

 

[Momling]

Yikes! You all are bad for my budget!  I just ordered the book... My kids will be *really, really* good at pre-algebra topics by the time I move them on.  I really should know better... but I'm such a sucker for other moms telling me how inspiring and valuable some math book is.  Anyway, we'll finish SYRWLM3, then move back to Keys to algebra (currently on 7), eventually finish CWP6, supplement with Zaccaro... and now a new book! Oh well...

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Did you buy it on Amazon or somewhere else?  I opened the thread without knowing it was about a math resource that's new to me...my mistake. Now it's gonna cost me. ;)

[Chrysalis Academy]

Hah!  You shoulda known better . . . No, I bought it from the publishers, Arbor Center for Teaching.  Lovely people.  You get immediate responses from them, I've corresponded with the author and with the guy who actually puts the books in the mail.  Quick, attentive service, thorough answers to your questions . . . oh, and the math is good too!

 

I don't think you need the first book, though, if your dd is still doing fine with AoPS PreA? Jousting Armadillos is more in the realm of preAlgebra.  The other two books would be good, though, if you don't want to go straight into AoPS Algebra.  I'm thinking we do JA this year, the second and third books next year, and then we still have time to start AoPS Algebra in 8th grade.  We'll see how it goes.  

[MamaSprout]

How much teaching time does this take? I'm teaching math at 3 levels right now, and am likely to pick up a tutoring student or two (and therefore maybe a fourth level of math) after Christmas. I really like the looks of it, but need something written to the student. I have 2 that could work together, but they are 8 and 14, so not ideal, although they do get along pretty well.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, it's written to the student, and according to my dd, the tone is exactly right - it's funny and engaging, easy to understand what he's saying, you feel like he's talking to you, yet it's not condescending.

 

Having all your students who could use it work together would be ideal, it's intended for a classroom with a small student teacher ratio, and there are lots of discussion points, puzzles, etc.  

 

As far as teaching time, we're really new to it, but I'd say that the first chapter you want to do with the student(s), because it's all about reasoning & logic, inductive vs. deductive, and how we know.  I think a lot of it would go over a kid's head if they just read it alone, but it's very rich if you do it together.  

 

Chapter 3 on integers, dd has done mostly independently.  I did work with her some on the discovery lesson on multiplying integers, and discuss it with her a lot, because it can be a tricky concept to get your head around (i.e., why multiplying two negatives gives you a positive), though he explains it well.

 

Sorry I can't be more helpful, but we're just starting with it.  It seems like a program well suited to doing at least partially orally/via discussion, although the lessons would be short and they could work on the problems on their own.  Maybe Diane or Pen or someone who has used it a little longer will chime in.

[Pen]

...  I don't know.  I'm generally around and available during math time.   I think JA is more be there all the time, rather than just to answer something when there is a problem,  than some programs at same level, but not because it is hard so much as because I was taking the place of classmates.  The hardest part for my ds was the Notes to Self, where he would not have any idea (he said) what to write, and it took a lot of encouraging him to speak about it to me, and my telling him back what he had said and encouraging him to write that down and so on.   That part was definitely time consuming.  But with a child who did not find writing to be something to freeze up about, that would probably not present a problem.

 

If at a same level of math I do not see any reason why an 8 and 14 year old could not do it together and I think 2 kids would make it a lot more fun.

[shukriyya]

Are y'all still finding JA helpful. Are your dc still enjoying it?

[Chrysalis Academy]

We've done chapters 1 & 3 so far.  We're kind of on hold with it while we finish reviewing decimals, fractions, ratios & percents with MM6 before delving fully into the Algebra part of PreAlgebra.  

 

We did Ch. 1 as a stand-alone, critical thinking/problem solving study.  It was fantastic.  We did Ch 3 alongside MM's chapter on Integers.  I particularly used JA for discovery, so we did the discovery lesson on multiplying integers before doing the MM sections where it's all explained very incrementally.  It worked very well.  I think dd's understanding of integers is rock solid.

 

DD really likes it, because it's written to her, at exactly the right tone & level.  She says she feels like Linus is in the room, talking to her.  We tend to do it together, with the whiteboard handy, and she'll solve the problems on the whiteboard or orally, and we discuss a lot.  I'm looking forward to continuing with it, but it will be a little while as we work to ensure mastery of arithmetic before moving on.

[shukriyya]

Thanks, Rose. How does it compare to LOF? And are both the student and teacher text necessary?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Oh man, it's completely different from LOF!  Not even on the same planet.  But then, what *is* like LOF?  

 

JA is most like Harold Jacobs, kind of a cross between Elementary Algebra and Math, A Human Endeavor, but it's "pitched" even better than Jacobs toward the middle-school student.  

 

It uses puzzles, stories, games etc. and helps the student discover mathematical concepts.  It doesn't have a "story" the way LOF does.  It is clearly the author's voice speaking to you, with a very consistent tone.

 

But it also has math problems - way more than LOF, though less than MM.  It has a recognizable and coherent scope & sequence.  

 

You could do it without the TM.  All the teaching is in the student book and is addressed to the student, there really aren't separate lessons that you teach, you just go through the explanations together.  The TM is interesting, because it has written explanations of how other students have solved the problem.  I like having it - usually we do this at the table, we each have our own book open in front of us, and we have the whiteboard.  But you could do it without.  It does have all the answers though, which is convenient to say the least . . . . 

[shukriyya]

So is it math taught with the Socratic method? I.e. here is the answer but why is that the answer, is there another way of getting at the answer, which approach is more efficient, which is more interesting, kind of thing? So that instead of just getting to the answer as fast as possible there is in depth discussion as to the hows, whys and why nots? I like :D

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yes! You got it!

 

It starts out with a whole analysis of how we know things in the first place, which leads into a discussion of inductive vs. deductive reasoning.  This kind of sets the tone for the whole thing:  We see this pattern.  Is it a real pattern? How would we know? How do we decide an answer is right in the world? How do mathmeticians decide a theorem is correct?

 

There is also extensive practice in putting mathematical reasoning into words - there is a journaling component.  We had fun talking about multiplying integers in terms of gaining, losing, loses losses, gaining losses and so on . . . it really forces you to understand the concept, or you get yourself all tied up in word knots.

 

I miss it.  :001_wub:

[shukriyya]

Oooh, I likey :D

 

 

[MEmama]

I'm so nervous to mix a second program in with MM6, but I am *so* tempted now after reading this. I'd been considering AoPS (pre-A or) algebra for next year, but it seems to me that DS is in the right place for JA NOW. Oooh...the temptation...:)

[rdj2027]

Give in to the temptation :tongue_smilie:  This series is a great "inbetween" MM and AoPS ( my daughter is using MM5 and my son is doing AoPS Pre-algebra).  JA and currently Chuckles the Rocket Dog (the last in the series) are a great supplement to both programs.  It elevates MM for my daughter and makes AOPS more understandable on those occasion where my son hits a wall. We haven't gotten to the middle book yet but it is on my list.

[butterfly113]

Ok, I'm intrigued... Can someone tell me if these are considered a full curriculum or only as a supplement?

 

Are all three books for Pre-Algebra? or Do they cover Pre-Algebra, Algebra I and Algebra II???

 

TIA!

[Chrysalis Academy]

It covers PreAlgebra and Algebra 1, over 3 years.  Which seems a very civilized way to do it, IMO!

 

The private school where it was developed uses it in 6th-8th grades.

 

ETA: it seems like the perfect preparation for AoPS Intro Algebra, for those of us who would like to do that, but didn't feel like AoPS PreA was a good fit for our kids.  It uses the discovery method, but the problems and puzzles are less difficult and esoteric, for the most part.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

It covers PreAlgebra and Algebra 1, over 3 years.  Which seems a very civilized way to do it, IMO!

 

The private school where it was developed uses it in 6th-8th grades.

 

ETA: it seems like the perfect preparation for AoPS Intro Algebra, for those of us who would like to do that, but didn't feel like AoPS PreA was a good fit for our kids.  It uses the discovery method, but the problems and puzzles are less difficult and esoteric, for the most part.

 

DD is in the final chapters of AoPS Pre-Algebra. The moves really stalled her, but now she is back to making steady progress. This looks so good, but I'm wondering if we should just stick to what we're doing. Maybe put in on stand-by in case AoPS Algebra is just too big of a step?

 

Adding another math program would likely cause a revolt! Don't do it! :ohmy:

 

Ooohhh....shiny new math program!!! :001_wub:

 

:boxing_smiley:   

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I guess I'm wondering if there would be any benefit to doing both. I know we discussed this briefly before, but I want to see if you've changed your mind since then.

(And yes, I have issues. ;) )

[butterfly113]

Currently we are finishing Singapore 6, and some solidifying of concepts with some extra Key to Series. I have AoPS Pre Algebra, but am thinking it will be a big jump. I was planning on getting Foersters Algebra.... Sigh... There just hasn't really seemed to be the right thing to "fit the bill" as many have mentioned.

 

Would you consider using it in conjunction with finishing Singapore 6B and Foersters... or would that be too much?!? ARRGGHH... Thoughts?

[Chrysalis Academy]

I guess I'm wondering if there would be any benefit to doing both. I know we discussed this briefly before, but I want to see if you've changed your mind since then.

(And yes, I have issues. ;) )

 

Keep in mind, I've only seen the first book.  I wouldn't do that after AoPS PreA.  I think the first book is really PreA, and that you will have covered it thoroughly with AoPS.  If AoPS is working for you, this might feel like a step backwards - or it would at least be entirely review.

 

If the jump between AoPS PreA and Intro A seems too much, then by all means I think the 2nd and 3rd books might be great.  I don't know, I don't have them, but you can get a detailed S&S on the website, and decide for yourself.  

 

 

I do still think that JA itself would be redundant for you guys, though.

 

My own (current, subject to change w/o notice) plan is to do all 3 books, then to try AoPS Intro to Algebra.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Currently we are finishing Singapore 6, and some solidifying of concepts with some extra Key to Series. I have AoPS Pre Algebra, but am thinking it will be a big jump. I was planning on getting Foersters Algebra.... Sigh... There just hasn't really seemed to be the right thing to "fit the bill" as many have mentioned.

 

Would you consider using it in conjunction with finishing Singapore 6B and Foersters... or would that be too much?!? ARRGGHH... Thoughts?

 

I think JA is perfect for PreA if you think AoPS is too big of a jump.  That's our situation here, I think JA sits in a sweet spot that is just a little less complex and challenging than AoPS, but conceptually as rich.

 

I don't know Singapore 6 or Foersters, so I can't really comment on that.  To the degree that Singapore 6 is similar to MM6, they are totally compatible.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Keep in mind, I've only seen the first book.  I wouldn't do that after AoPS PreA.  I think the first book is really PreA, and that you will have covered it thoroughly with AoPS.  If AoPS is working for you, this might feel like a step backwards - or it would at least be entirely review.

 

If the jump between AoPS PreA and Intro A seems too much, then by all means I think the 2nd and 3rd books might be great.  I don't know, I don't have them, but you can get a detailed S&S on the website, and decide for yourself.  

 

 

I do still think that JA itself would be redundant for you guys, though.

 

My own (current, subject to change w/o notice) plan is to do all 3 books, then to try AoPS Intro to Algebra.

 

Thanks! I think we'll just stay on course and keep JA for our #1 backup plan. (Which is always reassuring to have.)

[rdj2027]

I agree with Rose, if you are almost to the end of AoPS pre-algebra, JA would not do anything for you.  I just bought the last book and it deals with exponents, polynomials and the quadratic equation, I have not yet used the middle book.  I use the series in conjunction with AoPS with my 6th grader who does not always understand the language of AoPS.  He is also an extreme visual and kinesthetic learner and the JA series has so many "projects" and side tracks that it helps to translate what AoPS is saying.  When I get the deer-in-the-headlight look using AOPS, I bring out JA or rather Chuckles at the present and usually get a grumbly comment along the lines of "Why didn't they just say that in AoPS". 

[butterfly113]

Thanks ladies for the clarity! :-)

 

[Nicholas_mom]

rdj2027 - Just curious -- Why did you only use the first and third book and not coconuts?

 

I have Pre-alg AOPS because I want to start pre-alg in the Spring next year.  I keep going back and forth whether to buy JA or not.  I think I like the first chapter from JA to start things off with and maybe go back and forth with Pre-alg AOPS and JA, like what you are doing.  It's the group activities that am boggled with.  I know I can post here for ideas but math has many possibilities for answers, is good to have other kids to talk about it, instead of just me and him.

 

>>>Egad!  So many typos.  Sorry.

[rdj2027]

Nicholas Mom,

 

AoPS is our primary curriculum and JA and the subsequent books are ordered differently.  Due to my son's learning style and math history we jump around quite a bit and did not cover exponents earlier (Chapter 2 in AoPS).  While most of the topics we covered in AoPS were covered in JA, exponents other than squares and simple ones were not.  The middle book (Crocodiles and Coconuts) covers functions/graphing, conic sections, and equations (systems).  We have not yet gotten to graphing functions and he seems to have no problems with geometry so I put off buying the 2nd book until we get there.