Proof School?

[Roadrunner]

Too far and too expensive. I read it was about $35K a year. 

[mathwonk]

i guess I think of choosing schools more in terms of providing stimulation than building a resume.  i am probably naive.  In my world, i.e. professional mathematics, lasting impressions are made in person, by a` single conversation with a candidate, or even a single remark.  I had lunch once with a young man and based on that conversation we hired him years later when he became available.  He is now one of the most internationally respected members of our department.  I can't even recall looking at his resume but presumably I did.  My point is it had no relevance to the decision.  In grad school I once brought a brilliant classmate and friend of mine to a class taught by my major professor and my friend asked one question in class.  Afterwards the professor told me we needed to give him our department's top fellowship as he was obviously the best student we had.  This was the same reaction I had when he had made a single remark during orientation.  I recall just turning around and thinking :"who is that?"  The student with the best demonstrated ability, which is related to best preparation, is the one who will make this kind of impression.

[quark]

Too far and too expensive. I read it was about $35K a year. 

 

We now live within commuting distance. But it's still too expensive. Maybe kiddo will really thrive there, and I'm quite sure he will enjoy it if they kept class sizes small as promised and if he could find his goofy/slightly introverted/pacifist tribe in addition to just the mathy tribe. It's one of those decisions I might be pondering a few years from now...all the what ifs. It's right up his alley, all that math talk. (insert slightly wistful smiley)

[Dmmetler]

I can see that building impressions, and I'm definitely seeing that happen with DD at her conferences. She's getting quite well known in the field just by being there and being interested and engaged.

 

I'm not sure that a pre-baccalaureate school would do that, though. My experience (as a teacher) was that mostly the people who go to high schools and talk to kids are recruiters and admissions officers, not the professionals in the field who would be in a place to pick up on that kind of energy and enthusiasm. Maybe Proof School will be able to bring in enough guests for their students to see and be seen, but I wouldn't pick it for exposure alone.

 

I do think that there would be immense benefits to that kind of environment for kids who love math. But I'd be reluctant to let DD apply unless I knew I could make finances work. I know they're making big claims on financial aid, but I think it would be heartbreaking to find your dream school, get in, and then be unable to afford it. It's hard even as a high school senior-how much more as a younger child?

[Crimson Wife]

i guess I think of choosing schools more in terms of providing stimulation than building a resume.  i am probably naive.  In my world, i.e. professional mathematics, lasting impressions are made in person, by a` single conversation with a candidate, or even a single remark.  I had lunch once with a young man and based on that conversation we hired him years later when he became available.  He is now one of the most internationally respected members of our department.  I can't even recall looking at his resume but presumably I did.  My point is it had no relevance to the decision.  In grad school I once brought a brilliant classmate and friend of mine to a class taught by my major professor and my friend asked one question in class.  Afterwards the professor told me we needed to give him our department's top fellowship as he was obviously the best student we had.  This was the same reaction I had when he had made a single remark during orientation.  I recall just turning around and thinking :"who is that?"  The student with the best demonstrated ability, which is related to best preparation, is the one who will make this kind of impression.

 

So you're telling me that where the student attended college for undergrad has NO bearing on admissions chances? That isn't what I've heard from other folks I know who are professors. Now granted they weren't math professors so it's possible that what you're saying is true for your field. But I'd be very cautious about generalizing.

[mathwonk]

In cases of admissions decisions to grad school where I have not met the student, I do consider where they went to college, but i consider far more what the professors at those colleges whom I know say in their letters.  Those are the people who have spoken to and taught the student.  Sometimes afterwards we also interiew the student.

 

I am saying that personal impressions by professionals are more important than paper qualifications.  In cases where we do not have real impressions, we rely on paper ones. In such cases I have often been sorely disappointed.

 

Mostly I am trying to say actual qualifications, in terms of visible talent, and demonstrated accomplishments, really do matter more than paper qualifications.

 

I admit I am unusual, in that for example when serving on the hiring committee I attended research talks at meetings where job candidates would speak, and took notes on their abilities, so that when they applied I would know something about them beyond what was written.

 

And there are certainly cases when the resume helps the less able student get a leg up, but this is usually only temporary, until the ability or lack of it becomes visible.  I recall cases where someone from an elite school was hired and introduced to the department with great fanfare, and some people from lesser known schools were introduced with much less enthusiasm.  Some time later, the capable ones from the minor name schools were still there, and the less capable ones, from the fancy schools, were gone.

 

Of course it is right to pay attention to the resume, as students deserve written credit for what they do, but eventually talent will out.  A related quote comes to mind by the great chess master Aaron Nimzovitch on the contrast between reputation and ability: roughly, and from aged memory after 45 years; "criticism can do many things, e.g. embitter the existence of young talent, but one thing is not given to it, it cannot permanently forestall the incursion of powerful new ideas."

 

When I was a young professional, and wanted to impress people at schools I attended, I was concerned about my publications.  My own advisor however told me bluntly was that what people I met would evaluate was not my publications, but me.

 

 

 

[lewelma]

Mathwonk, this is fascinating, and I will get my ds to read it.  

 

My grandfather was a chemist for Monsanto for most of his life, and was only 1 of 2 kids not drafted in WW2 in his entire city because of his skill as a chemist.  He was on the projects for both synthetic rubber and the bomb.  Many years ago, he told me about what he looked for when hiring.  He said, "Geniuses are a dime a dozen in my business.  Give me a hard worker any day of the week over a genius."  Clearly, he also was looking closely at the person rather than only the resume. 

 

Ruth in NZ

[Crimson Wife]

 

Mostly I am trying to say actual qualifications, in terms of visible talent, and demonstrated accomplishments, really do matter more than paper qualifications.

 

 

Of course, but there are far more qualified applicants than available slots in this competitive day and age. When you've got so many smart and talented people all competing for a handful of slots, the edge is going to go to the person with the better resume/CV. And if the first cut is done by computer, you may not even get your resume in front of a hiring manager without the right credentials.

[mathwonk]

I want to acknowledge that there are times when the vita, or resume, is the primary tool for conveying ones value to others.  I remember once while young being on leave from my own university to a top level research institution where there were several world experts in my field.  While there I simply spoke with these men and communicated to them what I was doing and received their personal response.  If they seemed pleased with my results that was all I cared about, and I often did not even bother to write them up or publish them.

They were pleased, and even seemed poised to offer me a job, but in the end I returned to my original department elsewhere with few if any senior people to talk to who understood my work.  In this setting my accomplishments were evaluated by looking at my vita and counting publications, which at that point barely existed.  I thought it should be sufficient that I received numerous outside invitations to speak to distinguished national and international audiences, but this did not seem to count much.  Eventually a friend drew me aside and pointed out that although people there thought I was a good faculty member they had nothing to show their superiors to document my value, and that I needed to publish my work in accepted channels.  I began to do this and this critical stage passed.

In that environment, which is probably the normal working environment, I seemed to notice that people were recognized and rewarded based on paper documentation of works sometimes more than on what was discernible from talking to them, and I was puzzled a bit.  In particular it was challenging, and occasionally impossible, to make a case for promotion of even a brilliant individual whose value could only be gleaned from conversation with him/her.  Sometimes what worked in such instances was a joint project between two workers, one of whom was less reluctant to write the work up for publication.

 

Of course this might be taken as an argument not to try to survive in an environment where your advancement depends on people who do not understand what you are doing, but sometimes you may have little choice.

[kiwik]

I think I'd only be comfortable putting that kind of money into high school if I felt comfortable that I could reasonably pay the EFC for college. Just because you went to an expensive high school doesn't mean that you'll be able to get college scholarships, especially not for schools that are need-based aid only. I could actually see it working against you for schools that look at class rank-because I imagine most of the kids who are in the lower half of the graduating class at Proof School would be in the top 5% or so of most public-or even less specialized and selective private-high schools. It's something I wrestle with for DD. In some ways, it feels that by accelerating, enriching, and truly challenging her, I'm making it less likely that she'll get college scholarships than I would if I sent her to the local, slightly better than average but nothing exciting public schools., because she's not perfect, and I'd rather have her fight and work to get up to level than to be able to breeze through.

It is not quite the same but I sometimes worry ds8 will miss out on opportunities later because he is youngest in his class. I know he would have been even more in maths if he had done a longer year one but his writing skills may be more mature if he was oldest in class. ds6 on the other hand will be one of the older kids and I worry about him too so you can't win.

 

If I had that much to spend I would pay of my mortgage. I just can't imagine having that much money to spare. Even the most well off people I know wouldn't be able to do it unless they paid their mortgage off first.

[quark]

I spoke to DS in more detail about Proof yesterday. He knows about the school and has shared classes with kids who will now be attending the school. So I told him that Proof is starting this fall and he huffed in a scoffing kind of way. I asked him why. Told him it isn't right to scoff at something that might really fill a need for some people. I don't want him to be the kid who blindly judges things kwim? He apologized for scoffing but explained, "it will never be like homeschooling, mom. No matter how good a school is, it will not give me the freedom that I have now."

 

Part of me is so :001_wub: and part of me hopes I am not closing up his world so much that he cannot tell when a better opportunity lies ahead :001_unsure: .

[Dmmetler]

He's probably right that he won't have the freedom, but there are other benefits to the group setting. It really depends on what the child needs. For DD, the group is becoming more important-but we're also in a less intellectual area with fewer opportunities than in the Bay Area to start with.

[quark]

He's probably right that he won't have the freedom, but there are other benefits to the group setting. It really depends on what the child needs. For DD, the group is becoming more important-but we're also in a less intellectual area with fewer opportunities than in the Bay Area to start with.

 

This is what I am trying to explain to him. But he is skeptical. And why I worry that he is just not able to understand the benefits that a group setting will provide. I think he feels that he has been there done that in a group setting and didn't really grow as much as I thought he would (but he doesn't realize that previous group settings were not true peers).

 

Anyway, it's all moot. We won't be able to afford it AND enjoy current financial flexibility.

 

[Arcadia]

. For DD, the group is becoming more important-but we're also in a less intellectual area with fewer opportunities than in the Bay Area to start with.

We are driving up to Reno for the school visit next month but we are comfy here too with lots of kids of similar wavelength.

 

ETA:

Another thing I am worried about is I grew up in a high dense area and intellectual peers were already hard to come by outside the gifted program. Then I came here to Silicon Valley which is less dense and it is still hard to find peers despite being surrounded by phd holders. I am worried about the overly niche of DA compare to EEPs in other regions.

[Arcadia]

And why I worry that he is just not able to understand the benefits that a group setting will provide. I think he feels that he has been there done that in a group setting and didn't really grow as much as I thought he would (but he doesn't realize that previous group settings were not true peers).

Even in group settings of true peers, there are some that are kindred spirits and some that just won't click. It is so YMMV.

 

DS10 and I have been burnt by group settings even when it is close to true intellectual peers. I find the best group for my mental and emotionally development are those that have stand the test of time and has been picked by me. There are just too many other factors at work besides the intellectual compatibility.

 

I won't mind paying for both kids to attend only math at proof school but I don't think my kids are keen to see the same kids in every of their class day in day out five days a week. At this point in time, they would be happier seeing different intellectual peers for different classes.

 

Since Proof School just started, it is hard to tell what the culture of the school will be as it will be evolving. Even if my kids were able to do a shadow day at the school, it is still hard to know for sure if it would be a good fit for a year. I'll wait a few years and if DS10 has any interest to apply when he is in 8th grade, the school would at least have been up and running for two years.

 

ETA:

I was looking at high performance computing (HPC) recently because kids have some interest in it and I used to work in that field. Its weird that even in silicon valley, its hard to find HPC peers. In the end I went to "bug" old friends of mine.

[Dmmetler]

In some ways, I can see the Silicon Valley location working against them precisely because there are so many options. If it were opening here, I'd probably be filling out the forms and praying financial aid came through, even though I have a kid who is more science than math, simply because she seems to need that piece so much, and be so discontented with it. She did a big outreach/education event for homeschoolers Friday. And she had fun (and was totally worn out. So were her education snakes-the ball python curled into a ball in my arms, hiding his head, and went to sleep. I've never seen a snake do that before. Poor baby....)-but she wasn't a kid there. She was the organizer, the teacher, the educator.

 

She wants the people who can gripe about hard AOPS problems with her, who can play word games and geek out on grammar, and who can then go and be silly kids. She wants the dances and to decorate her locker. She wants to be a 6th grade girl, who also hangs out in the lab and field collects snakes,and who can discuss the merits of different fixatives for tissue samples.

 

If it were available locally, even if it wasn't a perfect fit, it just might be worth my going back to the public schools or adjuncting at three colleges to pay for.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[quark]

In some ways, I can see the Silicon Valley location working against them precisely because there are so many options.

 

Actually no. I think it is working wonderfully for them. I had a chance to talk to a few parents whose kids are in the pioneer batch and this is something that is truly needed here. There ARE options but not one like THIS even here in the Silicon Valley.

 

Their primary draw seems to be the social aspect. Their kids are thirsty for math but maybe more thirsty for the tribe they meet at off hours away from school (the families were non homeschoolers)...their other math circle or math competition buddies who are not always from the same school.

 

I'm trying to think of something that comes close to Proof in the Silicon Valley. Nope. Not so many options. Not even homeschooling with a mentor.

 

I forgot to add...BUT after having spoken to them and hearing about the dynamic (apparently Proof has been organizing get togethers so students and parents can get to know each other and the faculty), intuition tells me that this might not be for us after all. Still, it's a great idea and I wish them the very best. Can imagine future mathematicians saying they are so thankful that they went to the school etc. :) Very exciting stuff for the Silicon Valley parent of a math kid.

[Arcadia]

Their primary draw seems to be the social aspect. Their kids are thirsty for math but maybe more thirsty for the tribe they meet at off hours away from school (the families were non homeschoolers)...their other math circle or math competition buddies who are not always from the same school

:iagree:

Their price point is similar to other private schools in the area. I wish it is in Menlo Park or Daly City. SF is just such a traffic nightmare :(

 

I do think that Proof School fulfils a niche need though and maybe they might open another near AoPS main office in SoCal. Who knows :)

 

My BIL's 13 year old daughter wants to be a professional ballerina. They decide to let their child afterschool ballet than to go to a magnet dancing 7th-12th grade school. If the daughter's interest change or widen, she won't feel as out of place in a good mainstream school compare to a niche dance school.

 

ETA:

My kids enjoy being generalist so at this moment in time, proof school is a curiousity rather than a need or want.

[Arcadia]

She wants the people who can gripe about hard AOPS problems with her, who can play word games and geek out on grammar, and who can then go and be silly kids. She wants the dances and to decorate her locker. She wants to be a 6th grade girl, who also hangs out in the lab and field collects snakes,and who can discuss the merits of different fixatives for tissue samples.

Ever think of relocating to Silicon Valley? Private music tutors can make a good income here. Hubby had a decent COL adjustment when we relocated here which was comically as we came from a higher COL country.

 

Last week when we were at the Palo Alto library, a few 5th grade girls were having their afterschool snack at the library inner courtyard and doing their Everyday Math workbook. They were talking about their parents wish for them to get into Stanford or equivalent. It was interesting hearing 5th graders discuss college admissions criteria while I ate my late lunch.

 

What other regions in this country might work out for her?

[Dmmetler]

Silicon Valley scares me :). Here a 3 hour drive takes you close to 200 miles. The traffic in San Francisco this summer, even mid-day, was pretty impressive.

 

Atlanta is one I'm looking at seriously to see what's available, since DH's company would happily pay for us to relocate there. Plus DD has connections with people in Atlanta as well in the herp world. Knoxville would also be a substantial improvement.

[Lilaclady]

Thanks. This is quite good to know.