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Proof School?

raptor_dad

By raptor_dad,
in Accelerated Learner Board

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raptor_dad

raptor_dad

Posted
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Is there anyone here who knows more about this who can publicly comment?

 

http://www.proofschool.org/

 

Paul Zeitz is Co-founder and the rest of the Board and Advisory Panel is a equally impressive. The website is very vague but it looks like they are trying to start a super elite math high school(B&M, boarding, online, something else???).

 

Anyway... something to keep on the radar down the road.

 

-chris

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mathwonk

mathwonk

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That's an impressive lineup. I know Ravi Vakil, and have met Brian Conrey and David Eisienbud.  They are well known top research mathematicians.  And everyone here knows who Richard Rusczyk is. So they have top mathematicians, educators, and money managers. Kathy has long been involved in such activities during summer camps for highly math talented youngsters. This looks like a bona fide effort to launch something full time for a similar audience.

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mathwonk

mathwonk

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Is it possible to delete a post that gets loaded 4 times?

 

ok, in view of next post advice, a hilarious mathematician joke:

 

"what do you get when you cross an elephant with a chicken?"

 

answer:  the trivial elephant bundle on a chicken.

 

 

i could explain this, but it will all become clear when you take a course on fiber bundles, including the special case of a trivial (or untwisted) bundle, which is just a cross product.  E.g. the twisted line bundle on a circle is the mobius strip while the trivial line bundle on a circle is the cylinder, i.e. a line crossed with a circle.  Oh well, this is one reason why mathematicians may seem to lead lonely lives.....

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Cosmos

Cosmos

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Is it possible to delete a post that gets loaded 4 times?

 

No. Your only recourse is to edit the posts and fill them with amusing anecdotes so that nobody suspects what happened.

 

Proof school looks intriguing. I will be interested to track its progress.

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quark

quark

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Many thanks raptor dad.

Tanton, Zucker and Benjamin on the Advisory Board too. :drool:  Son loves Zucker and Benjamin especially.

Sigh...it will be a huge hike for us physically but it's possible we could make it when they open their doors. I've signed up for updates and am begging them to consider keeping fees low.

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Arcadia

Arcadia

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Sigh...it will be a huge hike for us physically but it's possible we could make it when they open their doors.

US101N is all jammed up in the morning. Downtown SF where the concert hall is would be an interesting location and traffic/parking nightmare.

KIV-ing too.

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quark

quark

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US101N is all jammed up in the morning. Downtown SF where the concert hall is would be an interesting location and traffic/parking nightmare.

KIV-ing too.

 

You are right. Hmm, I wonder why they chose downtown SF :huh:. I can understand it's easier for the mathematicians but still. Are they hoping for a mostly SF/ Berkeley/ Marin-based crowd? I remember driving an hour+ to the concert hall one time only to spend another 30 minutes looking for parking. We were obviously late for the concert despite technically arriving at the hall on time.

 

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wapiti

wapiti

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How about the middle? (seriously though, certain costs would be so much lower and the traffic would be much better and if I were to remotely consider a boarding school, downtown SF would not be what I would have in mind though it might sound very interesting for the kids; I kind of doubt that there will be a boarding option anyway as I imagine demand is likely to be high enough for a day school in the Bay Area if the commute is reasonable)

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mathnerd

mathnerd

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Thanks for the post. Never heard of it. But am intrigued enough to attend the "open house" and "public events" in 2014 even though my son is a little on the young side for Proof School! If I ever attend their open house event, I will be sure to post on this forum.

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raptor_dad

raptor_dad

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OK here is a response from a Proof School Co-Founder to a thread on Hackernews

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6270720

 

QUOTE

****************************************************

Quick response from Proof School co-founder:

 

Can't comment on all the critiques here, but thank you for them, especially those intended to be constructive--the board of directors and advisory board members will consider some of points made here. If you haven't already, I encourage you to check out who's supporting Proof School. We are fortunate to have their backing and advice.

 

First, to user interface... the pitch deck format of the current website is meant more as a landing page to pique curiosity and to solicit interest--it will change to a more familiar UX soon. Apologies if it's slow or glitchy--we're working on it. Go easy, guys!

 

Let me tell you a little more about Proof School, opening to students in 2015. The mission of the school is to attract students who self-identify as "math kids"--it will not be easy to get in. We're looking for kids who may not see their peers except at summer math camps or at math circles, Julia Robinson Math Festivals, or math and CS events/contests at universities, MSRI and AIM during the school year, kids whose friends (some, at least) will wish they could go to Proof School, too, because the name says it all and they get it, kids who at 11, 12, 13, 14 are doing college and graduate level mathematics... and want to do it with kids and adults like them all year round, not just once in a while. These math kids are out there, and the response from them, their parents and other adult "math kids" who wish they'd had a Proof School when they were growing up is, frankly, massive. Here's our mission statement: PROOF SCHOOL WILL OFFER AN UNRIVALED EDUCATION TO YOUNG PEOPLE WHO EXCEL AT AND HAVE A PASSION FOR MATHEMATICS WHILE EQUIPPING THEM WITH KNOWLEDGE, SKILLS AND CHARACTER FOR SUCCESS IN LIFE.

 

Proof School will be elite but not elitist; no one who qualifies will be turned away because of financial need. It can also not only be about math: we will be offering a complete, UC A-G accredited curriculum, plus an explicit social/emotional learning (SEL) and mindfulness program, and partnering with some of the finest educational and cultural programs the Bay Area has to offer so that we educate the whole child. Math and CS will in some ways be the easy part, with teachers, professors, visiting instructors and peers teaching and learning from each other all in the mix. By contrast, we've identified the need to recruit the best teachers and academic leaders in the arts, hard sciences and humanities as our most pressing need going forward.

 

What more can I tell you... We're launching a "Math Community Hub" in downtown SF in 2014 to get us in synch with academic and admissions calendars, pulling together all people interested in math at all levels. There's lots more, but I won't be able to respond to more comments here on HN (I've got a school to build!). If you'd like to add your great ideas to our efforts, please send me an email at ibrown[at]proofschool.org. Also, please have a look at William Thurston's paper "On Proofs and Progress in Mathematics" here--just great: http://arxiv.org/pdf/math/9404236v1.pdf

 

Many thanks for the feedback, Ian

************************************END QUOTE

 

So looks like B&M private school with high levels of financial aid...

 

-chris

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Crimson Wife

Crimson Wife

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I'm surprised but heartened that they chose a SF location rather than Silicon Valley. I would think there would be a bigger pool of potential students down near Stanford and all the tech giants but maybe they're aiming more for the kids of those working in financial services industry in the city.

 

I'll have to keep my eye on this for DS. DD skews more towards the verbal domain so this totally wouldn't be her thing.

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  • 6 months later...
quark

quark

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A Meet the Dean session summary (also refer to post #19) - http://proofschool.org/2014/03/01/meet-our-new-dean-of-mathematical-sciences/

 

I was about 10-15 minutes late to the meeting (parking was especially hard to find that evening) and might have missed some important introductory info.

 

What is it? Proof School is aiming to be a WASC-accredited private middle and high school, serving kids in grades 6-12. They will be aligning curriculum to fit the UC a-g requirements. It is a specialized school for kids who are passionate about math and/ or want to do math all the time.

 

The speakers were careful to point out that the school is not only for math-precocious kids, but that students who want to attend the school must be prepared to work on math for at least 2.5 hours a day. They are not interested in acceleration for acceleration’s sake. But they also assured the audience that they are fully capable of attending to needs of very advanced math students.

 

Speakers? Dean of Math Department at Proof School = Sam Vandervalde (if I might include a personal opinion here, I was smitten by Sam’s child-like enthusiasm…and of course, seeing Paul next to Sam, I must have been pretty starry-eyed, lol).

 

Sam’s CV: https://www.stlawu.edu/sites/default/files/employee-cvs/CV2012.pdf

Sam on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Vandervelde

 

Paul Zeitz and co-founders Ian Brown and Dennis Leary were also present.

 

They are seeking a Dean for the Arts/ Humanities. No confirmation of when they will know who it is. Teachers will be officially recruited closer to opening date. They were quite clear that math faculty will be highly trained, possibly PhD holders. There was definitely the vibe of our teachers will be mathematicians and people experienced with and actively involved in the math community, not typical high school math teachers.

 

When? They hope to start with 9th grade in Fall 2015. Looking into accepting 7th-10th graders at opening too (not finalized).

 

Where? Downtown SF – so no soccer/ lacrosse/ field-based sports facilities planned (I’m not sure if they will expand to include facilities in the future). Why SF and not say, Silicon Valley? Some reasons given were proximity to most Bay Area math circle-attending crowd, and a more diverse student population. They are looking into setting up shuttles to/from major Bay Area cities and regions and also a carpooling parent network but it will take some time to work details out.

 

Subjects? Typical high school humanities, CS, sciences and electives in the first half of the day with a 2.5-hour or more focus on math in the second half of the day. Math will be split into problem solving blocks and others (I couldn’t catch what was others because people were interjecting/ interrupting/ asking questions). Looks like they might choose a block schedule and run it efficiently to maximize time for math. Students will have a lunch break and two blocks per week might be dedicated to clubs (e.g. chess club, string instrument club and so on based on what students would like to do).

 

Fees? Not finalized. I might have missed detailed info on this. They hope to have enough aid to offer every student in need.  

 

How many students? About 60 for first batch with a ratio of 15 students to a teacher.

 

Placement? They might have an entrance exam but it looks like Sam favors an interview for most accurate placement decisions.

 

There was some interest in the audience on the inspiration for Proof School. The speakers firmly denied any inspiration stemming from famous STEM magnet schools in the US. They stressed that their mission was to go above and beyond the math focus in famous STEM high schools. They did say that they were partially inspired by Eastern European/ Russian math circle/ high school models.

 

They are also hoping to offer more diverse, meaningful and hands-on learning experiences by partnering with entities like the Exploratorium and Tech Shop.

 

I couldn’t get more details because I was rushing off. You can contact Proof School if you have questions or ask here/ PM me and I will forward your message to Ian. They seem very willing to hear from interested parents.

 

More info here: http://proofschool.org/faq/

Contact: http://proofschool.org/contact/

Ian's email addy is mentioned in post #19

 

Hope this is helpful to someone!

 

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kiwik

kiwik

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I've got nothing. This is a language arts country!

So it isn't just me who finds that! I am hoping my youngest has less dislike for writing. It is really hard advocating for maths extension for a kid who is barely at national standard at writing.

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quark

quark

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Just thinking aloud...

 

It sounds really good. I was very impressed with the model and came away hoping we could somehow swing the fees and move 80+ miles to SF or at least East Bay. Having IRL access to all these math minds is SO tempting. But kiddo wasn't jumping at it after I explained it to him. To him, given that we are rather flexible with scheduling and types of subjects to learn, he gets to work on math for more than 2.5 hours a day anyway, and the lack of a peer discussion group doesn't feel like a loss atm. He can discuss almost anything he wants to atm with his mentor. He can look up almost anything he is curious about. And he is by himself quite careful and vocal about the money we spend on his education. Of course, he might feel differently as he matures.

 

The skeptic in me wonders at the limits posed by the a-g alignment and also the WASC accreditation. Perhaps I am ignorant about how that works. Why I'm skeptical is that my charter school was limiting us based on those two very-same requirements. There was paperwork and some busywork (but I was able to make that minimal) we had to do that had nothing to do with learning. I've heard similar disgruntled stories about Davidson Academy in Reno as well, about how it started off catering well to the PG population but has gradually lost some of that uniqueness due to bureaucracy.

 

My (now ex-) charter and DA are public schools. Perhaps being a private school gives Proof School more independence? Is anyone able to comment on how that works? I didn't have enough time to ask/ explain the background of my question during the meeting. I don't believe the speakers are well aware of how a virtual homeschool public charter works either.

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lewelma

lewelma

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I was reading the info to DH and LegoMan pops in and asks when he can go to school there? He was particularly intrigued by it being for kids who love math and 2.5 hours of math a day. Those sound like his people...

2.5 hours. This gave me the giggles. Last week when my ds had Intermediate Number Theory overlap with Algebra 3, he was up to 6 to 8 hours a day. Leaving me with a bit of :huh: and a bit of :001_smile: . 

 

I even found my him sitting in the family room in the dark at 10:30 at night with the tablet.  I was a bit  :eek: . Of course, he was sneaking in more maths and asking questions on the forum. :D

 

Ruth in NZ

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sunnyday

sunnyday

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I was reading the info to DH and LegoMan pops in and asks when he can go to school there? He was particularly intrigued by it being for kids who love math and 2.5 hours of math a day. Those sound like his people...

 

LOL, sounds like when I was looking at the page for Delta Camp and my DS asked what it was about..."But *I* am a kid between 6 and 7 who loves math!" (Sadly he is probably not the caliber they are looking for, even if we could budget for the cost! Ah, well.)

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quark

quark

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2.5 hours. This gave me the giggles. Last week when my ds had Intermediate Number Theory overlap with Algebra 3, he was up to 6 to 8 hours a day. Leaving me with a bit of :huh: and a bit of :001_smile: .

 

:) Ruth, I suspect that they are definitely targeting the PS and private school math-circle attending kids. It's common for these kids, even math-loving ones, to be so bogged down with HW or just plain exhausted that they are unable to spend as much time as they would like with math after school. You should see how tired some of the math circle kids look even before the circle begins. None of the co-founders homeschool (afaik, although their kids might be attending alternative private schools). I suspect that their own children spend time with AoPS classes and math clubs after school. The concept of homeschooled kids doing 4 hours or more of math a day (from own choice) is still strange to most...perhaps even to some mathematicians?

 

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Crimson Wife

Crimson Wife

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The skeptic in me wonders at the limits posed by the a-g alignment and also the WASC accreditation. Perhaps I am ignorant about how that works. Why I'm skeptical is that my charter school was limiting us based on those two very-same requirements. There was paperwork and some busywork (but I was able to make that minimal) we had to do that had nothing to do with learning. I've heard similar disgruntled stories about Davidson Academy in Reno as well, about how it started off catering well to the PG population but has gradually lost some of that uniqueness due to bureaucracy.

WASC accreditation should not be an issue. The elite prep schools like Exeter are all accredited and they offer courses to challenge their top students (several Exeter students were on the International Math Olympiad team).

 

Now the stupid UC a-g requirements thing may be an issue, especially if the state gets all picky about textbooks used.

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quark

quark

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This CASEL?

 

MBM, if you see raptor_dad's post 19, you'll see that he quotes Ian's vision to integrate SEL, mindfulness, cultural enrichment activities etc.  I'm not sure how they'll actually manage it. It will be interesting to see how this school develops.

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Kerileanne99

Kerileanne99

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LOL, sounds like when I was looking at the page for Delta Camp and my DS asked what it was about..."But *I* am a kid between 6 and 7 who loves math!" (Sadly he is probably not the caliber they are looking for, even if we could budget for the cost! Ah, well.)

Deja Vu? I just followed your link to Delta Camp, and my mathy kiddo read it next to me. She is bouncing up and down in excitement:)

I told her we would have to see how much she still loves and works hard in math when she is old enough, lol! She is now in her room playing a 'game' where she calculates the perimeter and area of animal pens she is making out of 1 in blocks...and asked me if we could calculate the area of a Shamrock in honor of St. Patrick's Day. Uhhhh...

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raptor_dad

raptor_dad

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This CASEL?

 

MBM, if you see raptor_dad's post 19, you'll see that he quotes Ian's vision to integrate SEL, mindfulness, cultural enrichment activities etc.  I'm not sure how they'll actually manage it. It will be interesting to see how this school develops.

I think what Proof School is trying to do is most similar to the educational approach of some of the math/science boarding schools.

 

I'm not familiar with CASEL per se... However the statewide public boarding schools like IMSA and NCSSM have been sensitive to this issue for awhile... for instance see http://www.ncssm.edu/news/ncssm-expands-wellness-initiative-through-mindfulness-based-stress-reduction

 

Proof School has several advantages here, since they are both non-boarding and in California. The public science/math boarding schools have been a magnet for gifted gay kids from intolerant areas from the beginning.They also have more kids from bad home situations than you would expect. Proof School can largely avoid this pool of issues since they are private and non-boarding.

 

Titu Andreescu was at IMSA in the early days,  Zuming Feng is at Exeter now, the Proof School people should be sensitive to the scope of this issue involving gay kids, goth kids, extreme introverts etc...this is not a rare issue in this community... I would take them at their word that they plan to deal with this in a sensitive way.

 

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MBM

MBM

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This CASEL?

 

MBM, if you see raptor_dad's post 19, you'll see that he quotes Ian's vision to integrate SEL, mindfulness, cultural enrichment activities etc.  I'm not sure how they'll actually manage it. It will be interesting to see how this school develops.

 

Thanks, quark. Yes, that's the CASEL. I did not read Ian's vision (yet) but I'm very impressed they are looking to implement SEL and excited to see how it goes. Mindfulness, too? Heart, be still. My youngest son's (public) high school implements SEL and is beginning mindfulness activities (kind of like brain exercises) and I have to say it is wonderful.

 

I'm not familiar with CASEL per se... However the statewide public boarding schools like IMSA and NCSSM have been sensitive to this issue for awhile... for instance see http://www.ncssm.edu/news/ncssm-expands-wellness-initiative-through-mindfulness-based-stress-reduction

 

Proof School has several advantage here, since they are both non-boarding and in California. The public science/math boarding schools have been a magnet for gifted gay kids from the beginning. I personally know people who went to NCSSM in the early 80's(when Hunt established them) to escape  rural anti-gay prejudice. I also know numerous folks who went to these schools in the 90s to present to escape similar bias in rural NC and SC and downstate IL. This is not a minor benefit. These schools are literally life savers... When I lived in Seattle it was truly shocking the number of the punk teenage homeless kids who had been thrown out by their parents in the intermountain west upon coming out. I can't imagine anything less Christian than throwing my kids out on the street... though now that I'm in MN, sending them to Bachmann's anti-gay therapy "clinics" is also on the table.

 

Titu Andreescu was at IMSA in the early days,  Zuming Feng is at Exeter now, the Proof School people should be sensitive to the scope of this issue involving gay kids, goth kids, extreme introverts etc...this is not a rare issue in this community... I would take them at their word that they plan to deal with this in a sensitive way.

 

Back when my eldest son went to IMSA, I did not see anything remotely resembling SEL. I don't remember hearing about it so I'm not sure if SEL was part of the school then (Max McGee became involved after my son finished so I imagine it became more widely used under him). Because of the problems we saw with students, teachers, administrators -- mostly unaddressed and swept under the rug -- we decided our two other children would not apply there. That was *the* deciding factor for us. Proof School will not be boarding so they likely will have less of the issues a school like IMSA has. Nevertheless SEL can help everyone involved if it is knit into the school curriculum.

 

Here is a brief explanation of SEL for anyone interested:

 

http://www.casel.org/social-and-emotional-learning/

 

My youngest is a big fan of Titu Andreescu and Zuming Feng. :)

 

Proof School is going to be interesting to watch. I am almost all out of kids, so none of mine will be going there. Maybe grandkids someday.

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raptor_dad

raptor_dad

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Back when my eldest son went to IMSA, I did not see anything remotely resembling SEL. I don't remember hearing about it so I'm not sure if SEL was part of the school then (Max McGee became involved after my son finished so I imagine it became more widely used under him). Because of the problems we saw with students, teachers, administrators -- mostly unaddressed and swept under the rug -- we decided our two other children would not apply there. That was *the* deciding factor for us. Proof School will not be boarding so they likely will have less of the issues a school like IMSA has. Nevertheless SEL can help everyone involved if it is knit into the school curriculum.

 

 

OK..., fair enough. I agree whole heartedly! I am more familiar with NCSSM and SC Governor's School... However, compared to the other options they did a great job... low standards I know ;)

 

IMSA and NSSSM etc do a better job than public schools, but leave much to be desired. Hopefully Proof School can do better. Likewise Stuyvesant and Boston Latin and TJ's  are a bit to grindy for Proof School's goals. I think they are somewhat disingenuous in only comparing themselves to Eastern Europe options but

don't see a better option.

 

 

Edited to be less inflammatory.

 

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  • 1 year later...
mathwonk

mathwonk

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Just a question: assuming learning is more effective as a youngster, is it possible it is a better investment to spend big money on young kids, rather than say at Harvard or Stanford as a young adult?  I.e. if one would consider spending $40K - $50K/year for tuition on an elite college, is it possible it is better to spend it earlier and then send them to a cheaper college, or hope for a scholarship, after they are already off and running (or up and flying) academically?  I.e. what is the best time of life to spend a bundle on instruction?  Is it really college?  Or is that too late for some purposes?

 

We spent tuition on private schools at both stages of life, and now looking back, I think it is quite possible my children actually learned more in the earlier period.  (Neither went to professional school after college.)  Some personal college contacts were valuable, even formative, professionally however.  And i could be wrong about how much they learned in college, maybe I just lost touch more with their daily lives.

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Crimson Wife

Crimson Wife

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Just a question: assuming learning is more effective as a youngster, is it possible it is a better investment to spend big money on young kids, rather than say at Harvard or Stanford as a young adult?

 

Nobody cares where you went to high school. In fact, my DH once rejected a candidate because the guy listed his high school on his resume and my DH felt that was a sign of arrogance. (ETA: and DH attended a private prep school on scholarship so it wasn't that he has an anti-prep school bias).

 

I think it makes the most sense to spend $$$ (assuming one has it) on college since that will stay on the resume.

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Dmmetler

Dmmetler

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I think I'd only be comfortable putting that kind of money into high school if I felt comfortable that I could reasonably pay the EFC for college. Just because you went to an expensive high school doesn't mean that you'll be able to get college scholarships, especially not for schools that are need-based aid only. I could actually see it working against you for schools that look at class rank-because I imagine most of the kids who are in the lower half of the graduating class at Proof School would be in the top 5% or so of most public-or even less specialized and selective private-high schools. It's something I wrestle with for DD. In some ways, it feels that by accelerating, enriching, and truly challenging her, I'm making it less likely that she'll get college scholarships than I would if I sent her to the local, slightly better than average but nothing exciting public schools., because she's not perfect, and I'd rather have her fight and work to get up to level than to be able to breeze through.

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Mozwo

Mozwo

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I agree with lewelma. It is more about their fit and learning. College admissions will fall in place as well!

 

We will likely consider proof school next year for DS 12 and perhaps DS 10 if we can tie up the logistics. Interestingly the proof school was suggested to us by our principal just last week ( our three go to a small private K-8 school in SF peninsula) as one to consider for our DS 12 for high school. For us the choice might boil down to Proof or a few others in the area ( tuition wise, they are all in the same ball park).

 

Would be interested in hearing feedback from folks who go to proof this year!

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Arcadia

Arcadia

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I think I'd only be comfortable putting that kind of money into high school if I felt comfortable that I could reasonably pay the EFC for college. Just because you went to an expensive high school doesn't mean that you'll be able to get college scholarships, especially not for schools that are need-based aid only.

 

:iagree:

 

I also wonder how the school would handle intensity in other subjects. DS10 can easily spend more than 2.5hrs per day on math but he is crazier over science and music and languages but isn't keen on Latin or ASL as a school subject. He wants French as his 4th language.

 

If it is a hands on science school instead for the same tuition fees, I might just "dump" both kids and find a tech company in SF to work for.

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