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We did the first week of the sample and my ds seemed to enjoy it. Well, he enjoyed the part where he got to write his own fable. The rest, he didn't complain, so I'd say that's a win. :)

My son liked the rest. We'll rewrite the fable tomorrow. I don't think he'll like that, but he did like thinking up a weaker animal to use (he thought of a termite). He'd love rewriting fables if he didn't have to do the actual writing. :lol:

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re: vintage program- I was referring to Maxwell's Speaking and Writing Book Two (For Use in Fourth Year Classes). He really has them do a lot of oral work. They work on storytelling, pronunciation, adding details and such. Of course as with a lot of older programs there is a considerable amount of work on letter writing. I'm not fond of all the assignments but I love the oral work. I love the storytelling and playacting. I love that some of the focus is on helping them to think of something interesting to say.

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According to their Facebook group, they are releasing e-books in a few weeks. They also said that the next two books are well on their way to being completed so they are on schedule to release the next two so far

 

Hmmm, I was on CAP's website a week or so ago and they had some talk about "renting" textbooks as ebooks for a specified time period. :glare:  Which does NOT interest me since the point of an ebook is to save money over multiple kids. Do you happen to know what they mean by ebook?

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Have you seen the Classical Composition series redone in a much more teacher friendly format & put out by Memoria Press? It looks doable for an 8/9 year old.  I don't know if there's really much difference between it and CAP's series and it's available now.

 

 

Scratch that. It looks like these books would just repeat Aesop skills, and the next level won't be out in time for this DD. She absolutely thrives on the progym geared writing though. Adding rereading the Homer core to see if an altered plan is feasible to my to-do list...

 

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Hmmm, I was on CAP's website a week or so ago and they had some talk about "renting" textbooks as ebooks for a specified time period. :glare:  Which does NOT interest me since the point of an ebook is to save money over multiple kids. Do you happen to know what they mean by ebook?

 

I just asked that question on the Facebook page for you. We shall see what they say.......

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Have you seen the Classical Composition series redone in a much more teacher friendly format & put out by Memoria Press? It looks doable for an 8/9 year old. I don't know if there's really much difference between it and CAP's series and it's available now.

She'll be 8 later next month, and I expect her to finish Aesop around January. I know of the CC series, but I have not looked at it seriously. I'll compare it to what we would do with CW Homer. I'm comfortable with the teacher end of Homer, using just the core to design our own path. The maturity required for the analysis is the only thing that makes me pause, but slowing it down too much would have her bored. Thanks for the suggestion. :)

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Hmmm, I was on CAP's website a week or so ago and they had some talk about "renting" textbooks as ebooks for a specified time period. :glare:  Which does NOT interest me since the point of an ebook is to save money over multiple kids. Do you happen to know what they mean by ebook?

 

 

I just asked that question on the Facebook page for you. We shall see what they say.......

 

Okay, so the student book will be the etextbook that you can rent. The teacher's manual you can purchase as an ebook. The renting an ebook thing is really weird to me unless it is deeply, deeply discounted. I plan on having my dd write her answers in a notebook so I can save the student book for my other two.

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Hmmm, I was on CAP's website a week or so ago and they had some talk about "renting" textbooks as ebooks for a specified time period. :glare:  Which does NOT interest me since the point of an ebook is to save money over multiple kids. Do you happen to know what they mean by ebook?

 

 

Their ebooks are here. I was pretty disappointed to see that the price difference was either small or nonexistent.

http://classicalacademicpress.com/ebooks/

 

 

Have you seen the Classical Composition series redone in a much more teacher friendly format & put out by Memoria Press? It looks doable for an 8/9 year old.  I don't know if there's really much difference between it and CAP's series and it's available now.

You know, I was trying to compare the samples of cc to cap and the content looks VERY similar. Plus, the cc layout could allow you to get by with only the tm, making the price difference pretty dramatic. The big difference I see is that cap plans to go through the entire porgym before high school, so the pacing is totally different. Does anyone have thoughts on pros/cons to this condensed approach?

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Their ebooks are here. I was pretty disappointed to see that the price difference was either small or nonexistent.

http://classicalacademicpress.com/ebooks/

 

 

You know, I was trying to compare the samples of cc to cap and the content looks VERY similar. Plus, the cc layout could allow you to get by with only the tm, making the price difference pretty dramatic. The big difference I see is that cap plans to go through the entire porgym before high school, so the pacing is totally different. Does anyone have thoughts on pros/cons to this condensed approach?

 

I opened the Writing and Rhetoric Fable TM and the Student Book side by side after reading about the etextbook thing. I honestly think that you could get by very easily with just the TM. You could do most of the student book stuff orally and the writing part on notebook paper. The stories are in the TM so the student could read directly from there. I wish I'd noticed a bit sooner and I would've only ordered the TM's myself.

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I was looking at the MP writing series to compare as well. How is it that they can make everything so soul-crushingly boring? I cannot hardly stand to look at their books, although I love the idea of their program. It appears to me as well that you could easily get by w/ just the teacher's book for the CAP program. I'm contemplating trying out some of the preview myself. We could get 2 lessons in before we had to meet the pre-order deadline and perhaps that would give us a better idea of how it would fit us.

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Ok, I forced myself to read the MP preview again.  I do see some similarities but I MUCH prefer the CAP version.  Aside from the fact that it is just more aesthetically pleasing it seems to be a much richer program.  CC just throws them right in there it seems, whereas there is imo more scaffolding w/ W&R.  Yes, the multiple choice questions are lame, however there is a lot of good info for discussion and more varied work and analysis.  CC is just more of the same from MP, very workbook and writing heavy w/ little creativity.  I love the stress on the oral work in W&R and the creative prompts, the fact that viewing it doesn't make me want to poke my eyes out is a big bonus as well :)

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I'm not really seeing that much similarity between CC and CAP? Beyond the fact that they're both progym and working on fable stuff. I think what turned me off CC to begin with was the fact that right away, they start out with writing an entire multi-level outline, and I think there is a lot more writing involved maybe? The samples at the CC site itself is a bit longer, I think. CAP looks more younger kid friendly to me. But like soror, I've always thought MP stuff looked dry and boring (granted I've never USED it... I just can't look at it for long).

 

I don't think my son would enjoy CC Fable. He is definitely liking CAP Fable so far (and is halfway done with his fable rewrite - that part is a lot of writing for him, but he can do it).

 

I also don't mind the multiple choice in CAP. It's very little, and it seems to be in appropriate places where multiple choice just makes sense. I like that sometimes they'll say to pick something and then have a line below that to write "why".

 

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I also thought CAP seemed a little more kid friendly than CC. I am debating using it instead of CC for my 9 year old son and reluctant writer

 

He definitely needs some challenge, but don't want to overehelm him either

 

What ages are you are all thinking of using this with?

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I also thought CAP seemed a little more kid friendly than CC. I am debating using it instead of CC for my 9 year old son and reluctant writer

 

He definitely needs some challenge, but don't want to overehelm him either

 

What ages are you are all thinking of using this with?

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This looks great and I'm very interested to use this next year. It just became the first thing I've pinned for my daughter's 4th grade curriculum. :-) We still have 3rd grade to get through and I already have something in place for writing. I will be eagerly watching the feedback from those of you who will be using it this year. I hope it's as good as it looks. Enjoy!

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Even if it is just me looking at the MP book, it would be torturous.  I don't like boring books either.  I think it ramps up way too fast for our purposes and not near enough discussion.  CAP really does seem to focus on helping the student work with imitation but also work creatively as well.  Personally, I'm planning to move to WWS as well, although if this program really knocks my socks off perhaps I'll change my mind.

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It's page 5 for the outline which means it's introduced quite early on. We do those IEW keyword outlines, so this format is more advanced and not something that would get DD excited. I'm confused why this outline would appear at the beginning.

 

DD actually really wanted to get started with the rewrite but we had something else going on earlier during the day. It shows that CAP has a kid appeal. I understand MP's philosophy but for some reason we haven't been able to use their products and it's not from lack of trying. DD took one look at MP's bird book guide and refused to use it. She's an easy-going child but is not budging on this one.

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The more I look at the samples, the more I love it. It looks like it brings in some lit analysis, and I definitely like the discussion hand-holding. My biggest issue is that I have rising 4th and 5th grader. I suppose I could use it with both kids and just re-evaluate my writing plan in the spring. I Was going to finish wwe2 and move into wwe3 with dd this year. For ds I was going to finish Wwe3 and move into WWS later in the year. Would using this for both be a major cop out? I think it would help us all grow in our writing abilities. Then when CAP releases the next level, I could decide if it is rigorous enough or whether I should move to WWS with ds next year. Any advice?

 

I could also supplement with some essay writing instruction from our Hake program and also plan on TWTM writing with history.

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It's page 5 for the outline which means it's introduced quite early on. We do those IEW keyword outlines, so this format is more advanced and not something that would get DD excited. I'm confused why this outline would appear at the beginning.

 

DD actually really wanted to get started with the rewrite but we had something else going on earlier during the day. It shows that CAP has a kid appeal. I understand MP's philosophy but for some reason we haven't been able to use their products and it's not from lack of trying. DD took one look at MP's bird book guide and refused to use it. She's an easy-going child but is not budging on this one.

 

I have CC fable, was actually planning on starting it next week before I saw this.  Have to say even with the new MP guide I was feeling a little overwhelmed and worried that jumping right into that outlining would be very difficult.

 

I do, however, think my reluctant writer needs a challenge.  But this, I think he would actually enjoy.  he would really like the creative aspect.

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The more I look at the samples, the more I love it. It looks like it brings in some lit analysis, and I definitely like the discussion hand-holding. My biggest issue is that I have rising 4th and 5th grader. I suppose I could use it with both kids and just re-evaluate my writing plan in the spring. I Was going to finish wwe2 and move into wwe3 with dd this year. For ds I was going to finish Wwe3 and move into WWS later in the year. Would using this for both be a major cop out? I think it would help us all grow in our writing abilities. Then when CAP releases the next level, I could decide if it is rigorous enough or whether I should move to WWS with ds next year. Any advice?

 

I could also supplement with some essay writing instruction from our Hake program and also plan on TWTM writing with history.

 

It seems that there is a lot of advice out there to save WWS for 6th grade. I think trying this for a year with your other writing (we also plan to do TWTM writing with history) seems like a good plan.  I am sure it would be really great it you could get both kids on the same schedule! :)

 

edited for typos! ;)

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What ages are you are all thinking of using this with?

9 year old 4th grader. We're also doing WWE3, though I think I'll just do the narrations and skip the dictation only days (since CAP has dictation).

 

I originally planned to use WWS next year in 5th. We may still do that, or we may use CAP instead. We'll see how the program goes.

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9 year old 4th grader. We're also doing WWE3, though I think I'll just do the narrations and skip the dictation only days (since CAP has dictation).

 

I originally planned to use WWS next year in 5th. We may still do that, or we may use CAP instead. We'll see how the program goes.

 

Same here, 9 year old.  We already did WWE3 (dictations were tough for my struggling speller, but great job on narrations).,  My plan was to wait until 6th grade for WWS, so this may be a good option until then.

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Okay, so the student book will be the etextbook that you can rent. The teacher's manual you can purchase as an ebook. The renting an ebook thing is really weird to me unless it is deeply, deeply discounted. I plan on having my dd write her answers in a notebook so I can save the student book for my other two.

That's...stupid.  Really, that's all I can come up with.  Would people really go for that?

 

Ok, I know CAP isn't secular.  I own a fair deal of their materials.  But does anyone have any clue whether this book can be used secularly?

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My ds just turned 9 this week. I technically classify him as 3rd, as he is on the line for local cut-offs. As a teacher I classify him as 3rd/4th. We are on Wk 4 of WWE3 here but I've been looking to add a bit more.

 

mommymilkies- the sample is fairly generous on their site so you can check it out but I didn't notice anything religious myself.

 

eta: I'm not sure how I might modify WWE while using it alongside this program. I did notice that the dictation in CAP and even CC were not near as complicated as WWE3 and they had more queues as to punctuation and such.

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That's...stupid.  Really, that's all I can come up with.  Would people really go for that?

 

Ok, I know CAP isn't secular.  I own a fair deal of their materials.  But does anyone have any clue whether this book can be used secularly?

 

:lol: The bolded was my initial reaction to the thought of "renting" a student ebook, but I was trying to be more diplomatic.

 

I did notice the inclusion of a couple of Jesus' parables in the Narration I book, but it was used more as an example of a type of literature alongside fable, myth, and narrative. I did not notice any proselytizing to go along with the study.

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No opinions on condensing the progym into 5 yrs? Pretty please?

 

I've only read the "Narrative" chapter, but D'Angelo's book is pretty easy to understand so far. And you could set the pace easily then. It's called Composition in the Classical Tradition (I bought used). I think the ideas will be enough to cover some basics, and I hope to jump to LTOW at some point.

 

I do like that CAP covers the progym faster, which the original CC did as well (finished in 9th). But it's too wordy for us. I have enough issues with MEP's TM. I'm glad it's working for several people though. :)

 

Oh - I think MP is coming out with some condensed versions. And IEW has a 1 year option for high-school.

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Also planning on using this with my 9 year old for her 4th grade year. I plan on using the same series next year for 5th if we enjoy this year as much as I think she will. I'm hoping we can start WWS in 6th unless Writing and Rhetoric really, really impresses. Or we might use both. :thumbup:

 

It looks like the next set of books will be ready for next year though. They mentioned on Facebook that they should be ready to sell in the spring. 

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Also planning on using this with my 9 year old for her 4th grade year. I plan on using the same series next year for 5th if we enjoy this year as much as I think she will. I'm hoping we can start WWS in 6th unless Writing and Rhetoric really, really impresses. Or we might use both. :thumbup:

 

It looks like the next set of books will be ready for next year though. They mentioned on Facebook that they should be ready to sell in the spring. 

 

I think I am going to go for it with the same plan.  If I don't like it I can always go back to CC before doing WWS

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The narration one discusses Jesus and his parables. They are cited and alluded to in so much literature that inclusion doesn't necessarily strike me as religious.

I have no problem with stuff like that.  It's the bias and controversial issues in Art of Argument that have me on edge about their stuff now.

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I may have missed it, but is anyone here finishing WWE4 and considering the possibility of doing CAP's W&R before WWS?

 

I was already planning to skip WWE4, as we're in WWE3 for 4th grade. :lol:

 

I don't see why you couldn't do that though. W&R is different from WWE. I'll bet your plan would work.

 

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I was already planning to skip WWE4, as we're in WWE3 for 4th grade. :lol:

 

I don't see why you couldn't do that though. W&R is different from WWE. I'll bet your plan would work.

 

I also planned to skip WWE4, but I agree I don't see why that wouldn't work

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I was already planning to skip WWE4, as we're in WWE3 for 4th grade. :lol:

 

I don't see why you couldn't do that though. W&R is different from WWE. I'll bet your plan would work.

I have/had a similar plan here as well.

 

We did the first day of Lesson 1 today. So far this program seems to have everything I was hoping to add to WWE, without my having to self-design. I love the oral work, it has always baffled me that there is generally little to no attention on oral presentation when it seemed to be so important in classical education(from my understanding). I am very happy that it still has copywork as I was a bit disappointed that WWE2 stops copywork. I had actually looked through some books we had last week for copywork but to have it pre-made will be much easier. I am also thoroughly enamored with the extra info provided. It really reminded me of Marva Collin's teaching, she was always throwing out interesting vocab and analysis information. I thought when I read her book that I wish I had all that knowledge to pass along so it is lovely to have at my fingertips. I appreciate as well that the narration is different than that which is required in WWE. I think practicing both types will be very worthwhile.

 

I've read the sample several times now and I am finding that the instructions for what is to be done are very clear and to the point. I hadn't realized that this was the same company that put out LToW, which is on my radar for high school use, so that gives me a bit more confidence in their program as well.

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I have/had a similar plan here as well.

 

We did the first day of Lesson 1 today. So far this program seems to have everything I was hoping to add to WWE, without my having to self-design. I love the oral work, it has always baffled me that there is generally little to no attention on oral presentation when it seemed to be so important in classical education(from my understanding). I am very happy that it still has copywork as I was a bit disappointed that WWE2 stops copywork. I had actually looked through some books we had last week for copywork but to have it pre-made will be much easier. I am also thoroughly enamored with the extra info provided. It really reminded me of Marva Collin's teaching, she was always throwing out interesting vocab and analysis information. I thought when I read her book that I wish I had all that knowledge to pass along so it is lovely to have at my fingertips. I appreciate as well that the narration is different than that which is required in WWE. I think practicing both types will be very worthwhile.

 

I've read the sample several times now and I am finding that the instructions for what is to be done are very clear and to the point. I hadn't realized that this was the same company that put out LToW, which is on my radar for high school use, so that gives me a bit more confidence in their program as well.

 

I do like having a kid narrate the entire story - it trains her to becoming a great storyteller (I hope).  It helps with public speaking, especially if you plan to video it and share it privately with family.  :tongue_smilie:   WWE's narration is more difficult, however, at least for DD.  She has to remember most of the details, which means she has to listen more intently; whereas, for CAP, she just has to remember the highlights of the fable, and present it in an entertaining manner.  I really like both WWE and CAP, so don't force me to choose one or the other.  :D

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I do like having a kid narrate the entire story - it trains her to becoming a great storyteller (I hope).  It helps with public speaking, especially if you plan to video it and share it privately with family.  :tongue_smilie:   WWE's narration is more difficult, however, at least for DD.  She has to remember most of the details, which means she has to listen more intently; whereas, for CAP, she just has to remember the highlights of the fable, and present it in an entertaining manner.  I really like both WWE and CAP, so don't force me to choose one or the other.  :D

I believe the narration is more difficult in WWE3 as well, although I see value in doing it both ways. The dictation is also more difficult in WWE3. I believe I will continue dictation w/ WWE as it is a nice challenge and ds seems to do well with it. However, it was nice to look at both CC and CAP and see that they expect/require significantly less in that regard. I like the challenge for ds but if it gets to be too much then I'm not stressing over dropping that portion. I think they will go together just fine for the most part.
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My son actually has a harder time with longer CM-style narrations, as CAP is having them do. :D WWE narrations are much easier for him, probably because he's writing phobic and used to even count words (in first grade) to shorten a sentence before saying it out loud if he knew he'd have to write a sentence of his narration. He got plenty of practice with that. :lol: (I taught him not to do that by assigning 2-3 sentences to write if they were very short ;) )

 

I like the dictation in CAP better, as I think it's more age appropriate, spelling wise. The amount of writing is enough challenge for my son, so I'm cool with the dictation being easier and being mostly words he can spell (I had to put "mischief" on the board, but that's expected). I plan to drop the dictation in WWE, but keep up the narration days. I may have him use the WWE dictation for copywork. We'll see. He LOVES narrations and does well with them. I do notice that CAP also has some summary in there, but it's not oral. They have them mark up the passage to come up with a summary in lesson 2.

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My son actually has a harder time with longer CM-style narrations, as CAP is having them do. :D WWE narrations are much easier for him, probably because he's writing phobic and <b>used to even count words (in first grade) to shorten a sentence before saying it out loud if he knew he'd have to write a sentence of his narration.</b> He got plenty of practice with that. :lol: (I taught him not to do that by assigning 2-3 sentences to write if they were very short ;) )

 

I like the dictation in CAP better, as I think it's more age appropriate, spelling wise. The amount of writing is enough challenge for my son, so I'm cool with the dictation being easier and being mostly words he can spell (I had to put "mischief" on the board, but that's expected). I plan to drop the dictation in WWE, but keep up the narration days. <b>I may have him use the WWE dictation for copywork.</b> We'll see. He LOVES narrations and does well with them. I do notice that CAP also has some summary in there, but it's not oral. They have them mark up the passage to come up with a summary in lesson 2.

Yes, my son is trained as well to ask if he is going to have to write out his narration However, he is still more likely to say too much than too little. He really likes to add detail and style to what he says. I really think he is going to enjoy the opportunity to use a little creativity w/ CAP's WR, once I get him to where he doesn't mind the writing part so much :) Using WWE's dictation for copywork is a good idea as well. I'll certainly keep that in mind. It will be nice to have it in hand to line it up and see what seems redundant and what is profitable to keep.

 

I do like how they have them work at finding the summary. I really think that will be good practice. I'm anxious to see how they progress w/ this through the program. It seems a bit more explicit than their summary work in WWE and more like what I would do personally. It is nice that they are starting w/ shorter passages for this as it is much easier to develop that skill without being bogged down in anything too long or complicated.

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My son actually has a harder time with longer CM-style narrations, as CAP is having them do. :D WWE narrations are much easier for him, probably because he's writing phobic and used to even count words (in first grade) to shorten a sentence before saying it out loud if he knew he'd have to write a sentence of his narration. He got plenty of practice with that. :lol: (I taught him not to do that by assigning 2-3 sentences to write if they were very short ;) )

 

I like the dictation in CAP better, as I think it's more age appropriate, spelling wise. The amount of writing is enough challenge for my son, so I'm cool with the dictation being easier and being mostly words he can spell (I had to put "mischief" on the board, but that's expected). I plan to drop the dictation in WWE, but keep up the narration days. I may have him use the WWE dictation for copywork. We'll see. He LOVES narrations and does well with them. I do notice that CAP also has some summary in there, but it's not oral. They have them mark up the passage to come up with a summary in lesson 2.

 

I think our son's are kindred spirits, I could have written this exact thing myself.

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