How do you encourage independent thinking and discussion?

[Hoot]

Maybe this is a silly question but, how do you get a kid to have a real and intelligent conversation?  For instance, DS and I have been watching the Peoples and Cultures of the World Teaching Company lectures during lunch.  Usually, afterward I'll pose some questions in order to orally discuss what we've just watched.  Some of the questions are content to ensure that he understood what was said, but others are meant to draw out an opinion, idea, or even just to hook an idea onto something that is personally relevant. 

 

It. Is. Like. Pulling. Teeth. 

 

Unless it deals with the basic comprehension of a book, lecture etc. he has nothing to say.  What am I doing wrong and how can I help him to THINK? 

[Lori D.]

... how do you get a kid to have a real and intelligent conversation? 

... I'll pose some questions in order to orally discuss ... It. Is. Like. Pulling. Teeth...

... Unless it deals with the basic comprehension of a book, lecture etc. he has nothing to say.

...What am I doing wrong and how can I help him to THINK? 

 

 

You're doing nothing wrong! You have a 14yo DS -- they are notorious for being laconic at that age. ;)

 

Also, 14yo is *just* at the start of moving into the rhetoric stage, which is where you learn to have ideas, formulate thoughts, support your contention and then express it verbally or in writing. Independent thinking and discussion is a slow process that takes both the brain maturing into the ability to do so, coupled with lots of practice, and lots and lots and LOTS of (you) demonstrating how it's done. Keep plugging away doggedly at this and you will see a big difference in 2 years, 3 years, 4 years...

 

Also, I think "discussion" is hugely difficult when it's just you and one young teen student. If you can at ALL include siblings, friends, a co-op class, book club, etc., discussion is SO much easier with more people for potential input and to spark ideas from one another... 

 

 

Things that can help you guide discussion:

 

- Socratic-method questions / analysis questions.

(list of Socratic questions)

(examples of discussion in this past thread: How valuable are Socratic discussions)

(SWB's handout for Academic Excellenc: gr. 5-8 -- great questions under the Language Arts heading, 2/3rd down the page)

(Teaching the Classics or other program to help guide YOU in how to guide discussion -- and I would definitely suggest having DS watch WITH you, so he's learning the tools of analysis and discussion, too)

 

- Practice through informally discussing the "why" and "how" of movies, politics/current events, and of everyday life.

("Why do YOU think he make that choice, and what might the consequences be?")

("How might that event effect the rest of the region?")

("What do you think her reasoning for that might be?")

("How will this choice/action effect others?")

("Would you have made a similar or different choice? Why?")

("What stands out to YOU from this lecture? Why was that significant to you?")

 

- Guided discussion; ask questions that encourage the student to:

* ask "why"

* understand sequence of events

* see/describe similarities/differences

* make connections

* look for cause and effect

* predict/guess what WILL happen, based on what has already happened

 

Try starting with compare/contrast, and with familiar topics to DS: the news; sports; TV shows or movies. From noticing what is similar or different, branch out to how these led to similar or different consequences, and then work backwards and discuss the character/personalities of the people making the choices that were similar/different, and then even see if you see a "big idea" (theme) that connects several of these events...

 

Ask leading questions. And follow up with more questions. Our DSs are smart, but were inexperienced in analysis at age 14, so it really helped if I dropped hints/clues. Examples: "Did anyone see yet another use of the color red in this work of literature? What do you think it meant?" -- or -- "What worldview do you think this character is expressing when he/she said ...

? What is a possible consequence [i.e., what will happen plotwise] of the character holding that view?" Some questions came from information or discussion questions in lit. guides, but some also came from ideas that occur to me of what I saw.

 

And key here -- follow up with more questions that continue to guide and/or help your student suddenly see a connection. And this will sound like the exact opposite to what I just said, but also know when to just move on. Sometimes they're just not going to make the connection, so you may have to give them the answer; sometimes they really don't have any thoughts on the topic. So, just move on. That might the good point to ask them to share what questions THEY came up with... Or, time to say, "Hey, let's go make dinner..." (LOL!) (And maybe over dinner something more or tangential will come out.)

 

Have DS come up with at least 2 questions for each Teaching Company lecture -- one can be a comprehension for clarification type of question (What does _____ mean? Who was _____? I didn't understand when he said ________?), but then have DS also formulate a how / why / in what way type of question -- the kind of question that leads to further inquiry (and hence, discussion!). Things like: What's the connection between these people/ideas/events? Why did they do that/choose that/think that way? How is ______ in the today's lecture like something we've seen before in a movie or read in a book? Then *together* try and answer DS's questions. I'd suggest that you, too, come up with something that stood out to YOU in the lecture, and use it as a springboard into discussion, to model thinking to your DS.

 

More Resource Ideas

 

The Pig That Wants to be Eaten (series of 1-page ethical/moral scenarios and dilemmas) might help spark some thinking/discussion responses/discussion. Try using it informally 1-2 nights a week at the dinner table so the whole family can participate.

 

Movies as Literature is a helpful Lit. program to learn/practice the tools for analysis-type discussion -- it is much easier to *see* the elements used for analysis and learn how to discuss with a movie or TV show, than with a book, or esp. with abstract concepts such as Philosophy or Worldview.

 

Speech/Debate team

Or other opportunities to argue and have to support your point really help with thinking, support, and trying to analyze or persuade. Our DSs did a lot of debating of legislative bills in the mock legislative program Youth & Government, but there are other types of opportunities out there as well that help students practice discussion and debate.

 

Have realistic expectations

Don't expect heavy discussion or loads of epiphanies every single day. The first 1-2 years the vast majority of discussion with our 2 DSs was me asking lots of leading questions, and them responding with monosyllabic replies. (lol) Over time, they began to get the hang of it. But even later in high school, we would average a good discussion or great "aha" connection moment *maybe* once a week -- and that usually comes after reading into the book for awhile -- often a third to halfway through the book -- before we start making connections to begin to get to some good conversations.

 

When we very first started discussing, the comments were most often comparisons: "That reminded me of the Star Trek episode where..." Or, "That character's choice/situation is like in Star Wars when..." Or, "Hey, this character is being tempted to grab power like in the Lord of the Rings..." Eventually, DSs became more practiced at discussing literature and began to even initiate discussion at times.

 

 

More tips in these past threads:

Discussions in your homeschool -- how to do it?

How valuable are Socratic discussions?

Socratic discussion problems -- introverts

Doing Literature with my 9th grader

TWEM (see Nan in Mass' methods in post #1)

Why does my DD have lots to say (until I ask her to write it down) -- while specifically about using annotation to spark discussion on literature, this thread had specific ideas for giving hints to help guide the student into thinking and from there, discussion.

 

 

BEST of luck as you and DS persevere in your discussions! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Renaissance Mom]

I think that you are on the right track by asking him questions that DO have specific answers first. Get him used to answering, then keep asking follow up questions to tell you more. Once you start asking thinking questions, you may have to Socratically lead him along in little baby steps. I'm sure you are doing all of this. It is frustrating when all you get is "I don't know." Just keep plugging along and keep breaking your questions down into tiny pieces until he can answer one. Then build on that. Discussion skills as well as analytical skills need to be modeled and practiced. Only then can you ask questions that require him to synthesize it all back into an opinion. I know I'm not giving you specific tips, sorry about that. But I do want to encourage you that you can get there with time, practice, and starting small.

[Hoot]

Monica and Lori,

Those are AMAZING responses.  Thank you so very much.  I look forward to digging into all of those links.  I guess he's not unique after all.  :laugh:  I assume it's frustrating to ALL of us moms when it looks like the answers and connections are right in front of their faces or when there really are no right answers but they're still just not getting it. 

 

Also, being an only child he doesn't have the benefit of siblings to bounce things off of and discuss with.  DH is not a reader so it's just DS and I.  He will, against his will, definitely be joining a rhetoric group in the fall. 

[1Togo]

Take a look at Bravewriter and Julie Bogart's blog. Her blog posts are inspiring and spot on.  Bravewriter's Boomerang book club might be good for your son, and there is a monthly rate, so you don't need to make a big commitment.  Also, Julie has an inexpensive movie packet that works with any movie.

 

I thought about my post and wanted to add encouragement for the "The Eternal Argument" by Robin Finlay.  It's a combination of literature/history/theology.  For moms who have academic backgrounds, the material might not be new, but I enjoyed it very much and can't wait to read and discuss it with dd.

[regentrude]

I find the easiest way to encourage discussion is for the young person to grow up in a family environment where intellectual sparring and spirited discussions of controversial issues among adults is the norm. Our kids are witnessing us parents debate issues with our friends whenever we get together; they have grown up listening to, and now participating in, those dinner party discussions and have developed quite a knack for argumentation this way.

I can't imagine my kids being able to produce thoughtful discussions on cue and on schedule. It would feel awkward if I quizzed them on their school reading/listening and if I expected an interesting discussion to develop immediately: the best discussions arise spontaneously when the kids had time to let the information sink in and think about it and when the student is the one to raise the issue that interests him.

It just takes a lot of time for conversations and the willingness to drop all else when a teenager is willing to talk, ask, discuss. The discussion does not have to happen at the school table - I just spent five hours of uninterrupted conversation time with my DD while hiking a nine miile loop in the mountains. Both my kids are happy to talk when I can give them my undivided attention in such situations. (We also have great conversations while driving long distances)

[JuanitaL]

I find the easiest way to encourage discussion is for the young person to grow up in a family environment where intellectual sparring and spirited discussions of controversial issues among adults is the norm. Our kids are witnessing us parents debate issues with our friends whenever we get together; they have grown up listening to, and now participating in, those dinner party discussions and have developed quite a knack for argumentation this way.

I can't imagine my kids being able to produce thoughtful discussions on cue and on schedule. It would feel awkward if I quizzed them on their school reading/listening and if I expected an interesting discussion to develop immediately: the best discussions arise spontaneously when the kids had time to let the information sink in and think about it and when the student is the one to raise the issue that interests him.

It just takes a lot of time for conversations and the willingness to drop all else when a teenager is willing to talk, ask, discuss. The discussion does not have to happen at the school table - I just spent five hours of uninterrupted conversation time with my DD while hiking a nine miile loop in the mountains. Both my kids are happy to talk when I can give them my undivided attention in such situations. (We also have great conversations while driving long distances)

I have had great conversations with my boys while driving and listening to NPR.

[JennW in SoCal]

Hmmmm, it seems my earlier response (brilliantly written, inspiring and all that) disappeared into the ether.  Let me try again....

 

Is your signature correct that your ds is 14?  Most 14 yo teenagers, especially male teen agers, seem to lack higher brain functions in general and as a consequence have not much more to say than a simple grunt in response to questions.  Put them on the spot after finishing an assigned lecture and you will get nothing.

 

I would suggest that you model the kind of thinking and conversation you are aiming for by making your own comments and observations on what you've watched or read or done.  A simple comment about something you loved or hated might start a conversation.  You might mention that you wanted to know more about something in a lecture, so you googled it and have to share what you found.  Perhaps your teen will respond and you'll have a little bit of back and forth, but more than likely you won't get much in return and that is o.k., too.  Give it time. Don't expect every topic to wind up inspiring long conversations.  Give your teen time to get used to mom's desire for conversation about stuff.  Give your teen's brain some time to mature.  The thinking you want and the conversations you're imagining will develop.

 

I look at teen conversations as something akin to parallel play in toddlers.  Teens, especially male teens, don't sit and talk one on one, they are always doing something -- playing catch, playing video games, anything.  One on one conversations with a parent where something deep and profound is expected of them shuts them down every time.  That is why chatting about a book, or lecture, or even a movie, is best down while driving, or while cooking or cleaning up from dinner.

 

So make it less formal.  Give the lectures or a book or anything else some time to steep in their minds a bit.  And talk about your own thoughts.   Give the comprehension questions a rest -- assume he is listening and learning.  And be patient.  It will come, and the conversations will be delightful.  You just can't force it.