Choosing a college - prestige v. program

[Hoggirl]

My ds has approximately ten schools on his most recent short list that he will apply to this fall. Among them are:

 

3 Big State Unis that offer substantial merit $$ for him

 

2 private school mid-size uni Matches (really, likely safeties because of his stats) Should also get some merit $$ at these - potentially going from $50-$55 per year down to $30-$35 per year.

 

5 reaches (4 top 20 national unis, 1 top 20 LAC) - only one of which offers merit money, but it is crazy competitive to get

 

Of those, 1 reach, both of the matches, and 1 safety would not otherwise be on his list except for their relative strength in a degree that he is interested in. Obviously, he may not get in to any of his reaches.

 

My concern is that he will choose one of the two private matches or one safety schools based on a degree/program they offer. What if he changes his mind as to what he wants to study as so many do? These are not schools he would have otherwise considered at all! Particularly the 1 state uni. It has a great program for what he wants, but the overall reputation of the school is poor.

 

If he gets into any of the reaches, I am wondering if that would be the better choice in case he does change his mind. But, then, of course, there is no merit money at those.

 

Would you choose a school with significant merit money based on a program/degree offered?

[regentrude]

DD is chosing her college first and foremost based on the quality of the degree program in the field she wishes to study. We consider all other criteria as secondary (as long as we can afford the school at all, that is)

In case the student changes his major, and the program in that field is substandard at his current institution, couldn't he transfer to a different school? I'd be inclined to crossing this bridge when we come to it.

 

ETA: I do not fully understand where "prestige" comes into it. If prestige is not based on academic quality, it is useless. OTOH, usually a prestigious school would also offer a good quality acaedemic program, wouldn't it?

[jennynd]

For undergrade, I probably will pick the school with well round program.

Like you say, kids change their mind, especially in engineer school, there is quite big percentage change to business school after 1 year.

If he actually stick with the major, he can always go to graduate school

[Hoggirl]

 

ETA: I do not fully understand where "prestige" comes into it. If prestige is not based on academic quality, it is useless. OTOH, usually a prestigious school would also offer a good quality acaedemic program, wouldn't it?

Well, some of these schools offer BOTH prestige (by that I mean, high-ranking, national research universities, with "name-brand" recognition) and all but the one reach that is geographically close are highly regarded in the area he wants to study. That one is certainly well-regarded overall and has the desirability of being close. Admission to any of his reaches would obviously be ideal - notwithstanding the cost!! But they are ALL so reachy that he may not get into any of them. He did not choose any reach schools solely based on name.

 

As an example (this school isn't on his list), let's say he chose to list Columbia because it is well-regarded in what he thinks he wants to major in (let's say underwater basket-weaving). If he were to go to Columbia and change his mind, there will be many other degrees (in fact, I think because of branding ANY degree) that would be well-regarded. If he goes to Big State U, because they do have a good program in underwater basket-weaving, but decides he doesn't want to major in that, then he is at a school that is NOT going to carry the "branding" of Columbia. I do understand what you are saying about transferring, but I don't know how likely transfers are at top-ranked schools.

 

I don't think I am fixated on branding. I am trying not to be. My ds certainly isn't. I asked him about applying to another Ivy League school (he does have ONE on his list), and he said that he doesn't care about that at all. He chose this particular Ivy because of their strength of programming in this area. Though several are quite good in it, this was the one that appealed to him after much reading and study. I am just trying to be pragmatic. I don't know if he will change his mind or not, but I do think it happens often.

 

Sorry if I am not making sense.

[creekland]

I always presumed my guys would not be changing their major and we're aiming at schools good in what they feel they want to do (programs good in what they want AND a fit that matches).  If anything were to change, we'd cross that bridge when we came to it.  So far, it hasn't been a problem, but I've one to go.

 

If you're concerned with the one state U, scrap that one.  It seems that he has other good choices and he really doesn't need 10 apps if the schools are affordable and he's likely to get in to at least a couple.  Middle had oodles he could have gone to.  He only applied to 6 in the end and had no regrets at not applying to more.

 

I would not pick a school solely on "name" if its program wasn't also really good with what my guys want to do.  "Top" schools vary based on major and employers will mainly care about top schools in their field.  They won't give a hoot about other names.

 

 

[Hoggirl]

If you're concerned with the one state U, scrap that one. It seems that he has other good choices and he really doesn't need 10 apps if the schools are affordable and he's likely to get in to at least a couple. Middle had oodles he could have gone to. He only applied to 6 in the end and had no regrets at not applying to more.

 

I would not pick a school solely on "name" if its program wasn't also really good with what my guys want to do. "Top" schools vary based on major and employers will mainly care about top schools in their field. They won't give a hoot about other names.

The problem with the one state U is that it is head and shoulders above the other two state unis with this particular program. :/

 

He hasn't developed his name based on "names" at all. But, it's hard for me to believe that name doesn't help to some extent. Especially when the names are soooo high up.

 

I'm going to be a mess for the next nine and a half months.

[Candid]

I think it is all relative and unfortunately until you have offers in hand, some of the relative parts aren't known.

 

I would eliminate the one school with a strong program but an overall poor reputation. Other than that, wait for your offers and see what they are.

 

One other component you might consider: where will your student fall in the overall makeup of the different schools. Would it be better for him to go to a school where he will be at the top of the pyramid or will the middle still get him where he wants to go after he gets his degree (be that job or graduate school). 

[Gwen in VA]

I always encourage my kids to wait until an offer (with sufficient merit aid) is in hand before falling in love with a school.

 

Kids DO switch majors. I have one kid who didn't really switchi his major -- he just added another two onto the first -- but he decided that he couldn't bear to work in his field of original interest. Kids do change.

 

But you know your kid. Is he REALLY gung-ho the field? Does he know enough about it to make an informed decision? Has he talked with profs in the department at all the schools? If he is making an informed decision and he usually isn't fickle, I'd take him at his word that this is what he wants to study, and I'd go for the best program.

 

Do all the programs have neat possibilities for research or internships or whatever? How competitive are the opportunities? Is there sufficient funding available for your kid to really take advantage of the opportunities? (Some state schools have neat opportunities but you have to pay for every experience; a private school is more likely to have funding available for "neat opportunities' -- whatever form they take.) The outside opportunities are what will give your kid the extra leg up once he leaves, whether he is headed for a job or to grad school.

 

One last thing -- has your kid spent TIME at each campus so he really has a feel for each school? Has he done an overnight, eaten at the cafeteria, talked with professors....?

[Teachin'Mine]

Apply to them all, and you may never need to make the decision if he gets into one of his reaches with a great program in his major. Yeah ... the waiting is going to be hard for sure. FWIW I would tend to go with the better school overall as he can always concentrate more in graduate school, unless his field really doesn't need graduate work, in which case I'd go back to plan A and hope on a good results from the applications. Helpful hunh? lol

[Hoggirl]

The programs are all good either because they have neat opportunities or are located in a place desirable for the major or both.

 

He will be applying to two schools where he has never set foot on campus - the one Ivy and one match. The schools are spread out from coast to coast. We have done our best, but it is simply not possible for us to visit all of them and do all the things you suggested at all of them. We have yet to find a school that allows an overnight unless the student is a senior. I was thinking hit seven or eight out of his ten was pretty good! Where we have had the opportunity, he has been on campus, eaten in the cafeteria, sat in on a class or two, done an alumni interview (again, hard to obtain until senior year), general tours and info sessions, etc. One of the big state U's was not an official visit - just on campus for a football game. But, it is probably dead last on his list. While I agree with your suggestions, I don't see how doing all these things would be feasible at so many schools!!! My ds is enrolled in a charter school, so we don't have quite the travel flexibility we might had we continued to homeschool.

 

Now I feel lame. :(

[Hoggirl]

Yes, he will need grad school if he stays with this field.

[Teachin'Mine]

Don't feel lame! You've done an awesome job making visits to some of the schools possible. He's well ahead of most at this point and it sounds like he's got a nice list of safeties, matches and reaches. You've done well! There will be plenty of time for him to visit after acceptances come in. From what you've shared of your son, I'm sure he'll get into a great school. :)

[creekland]

Now I feel lame. :(

 

Huh?  We haven't yet visited any of the schools my youngest will be applying to soon.  If you're "lame" with all you've done I hate to think what that makes me...

 

Our visits aren't likely to happen until Oct (south) and Feb (west).

 

All of his schools are good/great for his major - not so great if he changes his mind...

[Dynamite5]

My ds has approximately ten schools on his most recent short list that he will apply to this fall. Among them are:

 

3 Big State Unis that offer substantial merit $$ for him

 

2 private school mid-size uni Matches (really, likely safeties because of his stats) Should also get some merit $$ at these - potentially going from $50-$55 per year down to $30-$35 per year.

 

5 reaches (4 top 20 national unis, 1 top 20 LAC) - only one of which offers merit money, but it is crazy competitive to get

 

Of those, 1 reach, both of the matches, and 1 safety would not otherwise be on his list except for their relative strength in a degree that he is interested in. Obviously, he may not get in to any of his reaches.

 

My concern is that he will choose one of the two private matches or one safety schools based on a degree/program they offer. What if he changes his mind as to what he wants to study as so many do? These are not schools he would have otherwise considered at all! Particularly the 1 state uni. It has a great program for what he wants, but the overall reputation of the school is poor.

 

If he gets into any of the reaches, I am wondering if that would be the better choice in case he does change his mind. But, then, of course, there is no merit money at those.

 

Would you choose a school with significant merit money based on a program/degree offered?

I think this is a common issue--it's certainly one I have thought about a lot.  My oldest is a rising sophomore and while he's interested in a few things, he has no clue what job he wants to do for the rest of his life!  Although we've not talked about it specifically, we've talked in general about how helpful a gap year can be, or taking some time to really consider what jobs are like--not just what the program is like while in college.  My ds will have many doors open to him--possibly too many!  He is going to, most likely, face this exact issue.  Sorry; I'm no help!  :-)

[Nan in Mass]

We faced this issue. Mine thought they knew what they wanted to do when they left high school. We took a deep breath and let them choose specialized programs. While we definately had doubts about them not changing their mind, we had fewer doubts about their ability to understand the ramifications and choose for themselves whether they wanted to take the risk, since they didn't just say, "That's not going to happen." Well, one did, but in his case, switching was going to have fewer disadvantages. How well does your son appear to be considering the possibility of a change of heart and believing you about the resulting problems? If the answer is well, then maybe you can let him choose whether to take the risk. If it is not well, then I think I'd start looking for concrete examples of people who switched. This isn't a statistically valid way of assessing a problem, but with my teens, a few concrete examples worked much better than a bunch of statistics, especially if I could get the examples to talk to the teen without it having appeared that I had anything to do with it.

 

It is a problem...

 

Nan

[Nscribe]

Even in the stone ages when I graduated the advice was if you have a specialty area of interest look at the graduate schools for it and work backwards in selecting where to obtain a BS/BA.  When doing so the results can be a bit eye opening.  We would look at which schools and majors the grad school accepted over a period of several years.  I suspect this may be even more true now.  The other piece of advice we got that served well is to think about the community to which you want to belong.  If you know you want to remain in your state beyond graduation, an in-state school may offer a great deal better networking than an out of state one.  If you suspect you will be looking for more national options, then a brand may matter more.

[Laura Corin]

I asked a similar question a while back.  The answers I received and my own experience brought me to these thoughts:

 

- If you are going to do a non-technical degree (English, History, etc.) it's likely that the prestige of the institution will be important down the line, as the actual content of your degree is less likely to be relevant to a job, unless you are going into teaching/academia

 

-If you are going into a technical field, then the reputation of an individual department may be more important, as this will be well know in the field where you are applying for jobs.

 

So for Calvin (and for me, if I had known it) with his non-technical interests, a prestigious university is more important.

 

YMMV

 

L

[TechWife]

First, if he changes majors, he can transfer colleges if needed. Second, companies tend to know what colleges/universities offer outstanding programs in their areas. For example, if a middle of the road college has an outstanding education department, those who do the hiring in the education field will be aware of that. Likewise, if a college has a great reputation yet the education department is weak, those who do the hiring in the field will be aware of that as well. 

 

Prestige will only take you so far if you are going directly to work after the undergrad degree is completed. At most, it will open the door for an interview. It is up to the prospective employee to walk through the door and knock their socks off. Past that, they will have to hold their own once they begin the job. Many (most?) companies have a 6 month probationary period during which they can fire without cause and if they end up with a poor employee, either due to personality, work ethic or skill, they don't hesitate to use it. It's much harder for them to fire someone once that probationary period expires, so they will use it if it is to their advantage. 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

First, if he changes majors, he can transfer colleges if needed. Second, companies tend to know what colleges/universities offer outstanding programs in their areas. For example, if a middle of the road college has an outstanding education department, those who do the hiring in the education field will be aware of that. Likewise, if a college has a great reputation yet the education department is weak, those who do the hiring in the field will be aware of that as well. 

 

 

I think it's the 'in their areas' that worries me.  None of us knows where our children will end up, and having a well known college can be helpful.  Certainly, Husband has found that Columbia (his masters) has opened many more doors worldwide than UT Austin (his undergraduate), just because the name is known.

 

L

[Hoggirl]

I think it's the 'in their areas' that worries me. None of us knows where our children will end up, and having a well known college can be helpful. Certainly, Husband has found that Columbia (his masters) has opened many more doors worldwide than UT Austin (his undergraduate), just because the name is known.

 

L

I hadn't thought of it in this way before, but "branding" could be much more important if one plans to work in a field that is more "global."

 

OTOH, for state (not fancy private) professional schools (medical, law, etc.), a better-reputed school without a BIG brand name, might be detrimental! I had a girlfriend whose older brother attended Wheaton, and when he applied to our in-state medical school (in the south) no one had heard of it! His grades weren't as strong as others, and he had to have professors write letters about the school, curricula, rigor, etc. This was probably 25 years ago, so perhaps he wouldn't have even gotten in today with lesser grades from a higher-ranked school.

 

Much to the chagrin of my father-in-law (oy!), my ds has no interest in becoming a doctor, but I do think if one is going into a profession where practice is pretty much local, sometimes having a local degree is more helpful.

[memphispeg]

We went for prestige with my older dd, who lives and breathes prestigiously!  She had no idea of her major (she thought Math to begin with).  We looked for a well-rounded school with strong departments across disciplines.  She did not major in Math....allegedly b/c the department was not good....but she was able to find a suitable major in which to hone her analytical skills.  She got a job in her "work field" immediately.  It had been her minor in college.  

With the younger dd, we went for a school with a good program in her specific area of interest.  She applied only to schools with good programs in her major.  I did insist that they all appear at least adequate in some very unrelated areas in case of a change of heart.  

I have no idea how these selections will end up playing out in their professional and adult lives.