Dual enrollment: good for the student/ bad for the school?

[Tap]

We live in Washington that has Dual Enrollment called Running Start.  Kids can take classes at the community college for both highschool and college credit.  There are very specific classes that qualify for core highschool graduation credits, but electives can be pretty liberal.  

 

When I talk to the 17-21 yos who have done the program sucessfully they think that it was a great experience and fully support the opprotunity continuing. Students must test into the program in reading/writing/math by using the college of choices admission criteria (often Compass placement tests).

 

When I talk to adult students mid-twenties to thirties, they seem to hate having the younger students there.  They feel like they are in classes with teenagers who have little to offer the class, act like, well....teenagers, and are not serious about the opprotunity.  

 

Another complaint I hear, is that dual enrollment is taking the upper level students out of the highschools. AP classes and College in the Classroom classes are harder to filll, so they are getting canceled.    It also results in many of the more mature students leaving highschools, tipping the balance towards those who may be considered less mature. 

 

I fell mixed and wonder what others think about it.  Our local community college has 2-3000 Running Start Students each year (total enrolment is apx 14,000 total students). That is A LOT of students aged 16-19 that would normally still be in highschool.

 

Professors are not supposed to know who is Running Start, but honestly it is often pretty obvious.  

 

I am glad for my children to have this opprotunity.  Ds did RS and it saved him well over $20,000 in college tuition (2  years x $20,00 per year at his college minus 50% scholarship/aid ).  DD isn't sure if she will finish highschool or do RS.  She will get to decide when the time comes. 

 

What do you think about Dual enrollment ovarall? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Miss Peregrine]

DD17 is doing well with it. Her professors do not know she is in high school unless she tells them. The ones that know were pretty shocked.  My daughter has many stories of "college age" students who don't want to be there and just screw around. They are the ones who don't have anything to offer to the class.

[Laurie4b]

We are fans for the issue you mentioned of it saving a lot of college $$.  In our area , homeschooled students make up a high percentage of the kids, so relatively few are taken out of the regular public high school. They have to enroll in a school on the cc campus and there are no extra curriculars, which is a minus for most students. Homeschoolers are more used to finding their own extra-currics, so it has worked great for us.

[Ellie]

Both of my dds did community college instead of high school. California c.c. don't require high school diplomas or SAT/ACT scores or anything, and tuition is crazy inexpensive. We were pleased, and if I were hsing again, I'd probably to c.c. again.

[Lucy the Valiant]

My thoughts are that the students are not their "for the school," the school (both cc *and* high school) is supposed to be there *FOR THE STUDENT.* So if lots and lots of kids are leaving high school for the RS program . . . well, there's your answer.

 

(I often hear the comment that by home schooling my "bright" kids, I'm somehow doing a disservice to the general population of students. That is illogical, in my book, because I consider the students to be the RECIPIENTS of the education being offered.)

[mamakelly]

My oldest DS is dual enrolled. None of his professors have ever known he was in high school until he has to have them fill out a progress report to take back to his high school, LOL! He says that when the other students in the class hear that he is in high school, most of them say that they wish they had been able to have a similar opportunity.

[regentrude]

The argument "it is bad for the school" is the same nonsense as "homeschooling strong students is bad for the school". The school is there for the student, not vice versa. If the schools would offer the right level of coursework, top students did not have to resort to taking college classes.

My DD is dually enrolled at a four year university. Maturity and seriousness are not an issue; she performs near the top of the class in difficult intro science courses and even tutors. I see many regular students who are less mature.

It is a great opportunity for a student who is ready and needs the greater academic challenge. It is problematic if there is no oversight and unprepared or unmotivated students enter these programs. It can also be problematic if the community college is of lower quality and the coursework is not really of an appropriate level to challenge strong students.

Overall, I am extremely happy the opportunity exists.

[Pawz4me]

My youngest son is just getting ready to start an early college high school program through our community college.  He'll be attending high school right on the community college campus and taking a mixture of high school and college classes.  If he works hard, at the end of four years he'll have a high school diploma and an AA or AS college transfer degree.  At our parent orientation yesterday we were told that most of the college teachers are supportive of the program and that some have said the early college students are frequently the stars of their classes.  But we were also told that some of the teachers do somewhat resent the younger kids, saying that they took their job to teach adults, not kids.  At this point NC is also expanding it's dual enrollment plan (Career and College Promise), so it may be interesting to see how that plays out over the next four years and attendance at community colleges by high school students expands even further.

 

Personally, I feel that my tax dollars are supporting the school and it's there to serve anyone who the state says qualifies for attendance.  No one age group has an exclusive right to it.

 

Oldest DS is a rising senior at the local high school, and so far there haven't been any of his classmates skipping AP classes in favor of dual enrollment classes.  That may be because, according to what I've heard, UNC looks at AP classes in a more favorable light than they do dual enrollment classes (even though we have a pretty strong comprehensive articulation agreement here in NC between the community colleges and four-year schools).  That of course won't hold true for all state flagship schools.

[kiwik]

We live in Washington that has Dual Enrollment called Running Start. Kids can take classes at the community college for both highschool and college credit. There are very specific classes that qualify for core highschool graduation credits, but electives can be pretty liberal.

 

When I talk to the 17-21 yos who have done the program sucessfully they think that it was a great experience and fully support the opprotunity continuing. Students must test into the program in reading/writing/math by using the college of choices admission criteria (often Compass placement tests).

 

When I talk to adult students mid-twenties to thirties, they seem to hate having the younger students there. They feel like they are in classes with teenagers who have little to offer the class, act like, well....teenagers, and are not serious about the opprotunity.

 

Another complaint I hear, is that dual enrollment is taking the upper level students out of the highschools. AP classes and College in the Classroom classes are harder to filll, so they are getting canceled. It also results in many of the more mature students leaving highschools, tipping the balance towards those who may be considered less mature.

 

I fell mixed and wonder what others think about it. Our local community college has 2-3000 Running Start Students each year (total enrolment is apx 14,000 total students). That is A LOT of students aged 16-19 that would normally still be in highschool.

 

Professors are not supposed to know who is Running Start, but honestly it is often pretty obvious.

 

I am glad for my children to have this opprotunity. Ds did RS and it saved him well over $20,000 in college tuition (2 years x $20,00 per year at his college minus 50% scholarship/aid ). DD isn't sure if she will finish highschool or do RS. She will get to decide when the time comes.

 

What do you think about Dual enrollment ovarall?

I am not that familiar with your system but aren't college students usually younger than mid-twenties to thirties? Students in that age probably think most of the normal age students are young and bratty. In fact they may be complaining about the younger college-aged kids not the high school kids who are probably aware they could be removed from the programme.

[G5052]

As a community college professor of 14 years now, I am very supportive of dual enrollment when it is done thoughtfully.  I do know who is a dual enrollment student because it says so on my roll sheet, and it also tells me if they are what my college calls a "classroom dual enrollment" (i.e. public or private school) versus "homeschool dual enrollment."

 

My college offers a fair number of dual enrollment classes at the high school (they do pay $25/credit hour), and they restrict what all dual enrollment kids can take at the college campus until they complete 15 hours of credit.

 

When parents ask, I always recommend going slowly on dual enrollment though.  I've heard a fair number of horror stories about people who signed their high school junior up for five college classes without any transition period, and then the poor kid fails some of them and has their confidence dashed.  About half of the homeschooled students I teach fail my class, usually because they aren't used to deadlines.  Some of course do beautifully, but for some it is a disaster.  

 

I'll also note that we are told that we are not responsible for dual enrollment kids outside the classroom experience.  If they are dropped off by a parent and end up in the parking lot in a car with a "friend" and alcohol during class, I'm not responsible.  If they choose to be friends with a p***phile who is on probation and taking classes, I am not responsible.  I once had a parent yell at me over the phone because I wasn't calling her if her daughter wasn't in class.  I don't have that responsibility, and there are actually laws about how I can and cannot interact with parents of dual enrolled kids.

 

   

[regentrude]

I am not that familiar with your system but aren't college students usually younger than mid-twenties to thirties?

Not necessarily. Community colleges often have non traditional students who do not attend college right out of high school, but later in their lives.

[G5052]

Not necessarily. Community colleges often have non traditional students who do not attend college right out of high school, but later in their lives.

 

FWIW, my typical class is about 20% dual enrollment (16-18 y.o.), about 20% traditional college age (18-20 y.o.), about 40% later college age (20's), and about 20% are 30 or older.  This is an excellent community college that has no problem getting the top graduates into selective universities in the region.

 

I will note though that the latest numbers say that slightly less than 25% who begin there actually graduate within 5 years, but that is one of the highest graduation rates in the state.  Another community college in a neighboring county has a graduation rate of 18%.  Most of the 4-year schools we feed into have a graduation rate of 60-80%.  So community colleges do have a different academic culture than the 4-year schools. Parents need to be aware of that as well.  Imagine sending your immature 16 y.o. to a public high school with a graduation rate of 18%.  I'd be wary.

[Haiku]

Not necessarily. Community colleges often have non traditional students who do not attend college right out of high school, but later in their lives.

So the non-traditional students are complaining about non-traditional students? I think I once heard something about a pot and a kettle ...

[Cinder]

My son was dual-enrolled his senior year. There is a large state U nearby that has an excellent DE program with a separate department to oversee the program. They limit the courses DE students can take, they give separate DE advisement/registration sessions, DE orientation. Some hand-holding but not too much, just enough to get the student (and family) on the right track, keeping up with deadlines, aware of differences between what it was like for them in high school and how things will be in college.

 

Ds will not get college credit for his DE courses. Here, a student doesn't get college credit if the courses they take are necessary for high school graduation, which was ds's situation. IOW ds still needed a science and math credit for high school and those are the courses he took at the college. He didn't take any DE courses beyond that that might have earned college credits. Still it was a great experience for him to be on campus and interact with profs and other students.

 

 It also results in many of the more mature students leaving highschools, tipping the balance towards those who may be considered less mature.

 

Actually, this was part of why ds wanted to go. He thought most of the other kids at school were immature. And those were the ones he liked. ;)  He was just ready to move on.

[Halftime Hope]

Ds did one cc class before he took dual enrollment at our 4-year univ through their honors academy program.  Dh suggested that his first cc class be Econ, for a completely different change of pace.  (Ds is dyslexic, so we didn't want to start with comp or lit.)

 

We enrolled him in an 8 am class, which ds reported was mostly adults taking an early class and then heading to work.  He liked the class and the prof liked him, because he was interested in the class--STEM oriented kid--whereas most of the adults taking it were fulfilling a Gen Ed requirement.  (I had instructed him to prepare one thoughtful question for each class session, in addition to asking any clarifying questions that he might have.)

 

Ds was 15 at the time, and he noted that when he went to class, no one was hanging out, but that when I picked him up 1.5 hours later, students were hanging out in the quad, some of them smoking pot.  (It's 5 pm somewhere, right?)  (And yes, he did know the difference btwn cigs and pot.)

 

So, for those considering dual enrollment, understand that's the environment that your kid will go into.  Exposure to lots and lots of adult perspective and behavior. 

 

 

[G5052]

 

So, for those considering dual enrollment, understand that's the environment that your kid will go into.  Exposure to lots and lots of adult perspective and behavior. 

 

Yes, I think that one of mine would do fine now, but we're holding off until their senior year because the schedule is packed with AP classes next year, and there isn't anything at the community college that we need at this point.  Then we'll start with some combination of "student development" (a required class in career-planning and study skills), a computer class, and Spanish.  I prefer to delay the core liberal-arts classes until after high school, and we may end up with some credits in those anyway with AP, SAT II, and CLEP tests.

 

I don't have dual enrollment on the radar yet for the other one.  

[goldberry]

Yep, sorry, I am of the same opinion that the needs of the student come first.  I would never make a decision I thought was better for the school but not as good for my child.  The school has to carry some of the responsiblity for itself.

[Ellie]

 

Another complaint I hear, is that dual enrollment is taking the upper level students out of the high schools. AP classes and College in the Classroom classes are harder to fill, so they are getting canceled. It also results in many of the more mature students leaving high schools, tipping the balance towards those who may be considered less mature.

 

I fell mixed and wonder what others think about it.  Our local community college has 2-3000 Running Start Students each year (total enrollment is apx 14,000 total students). That is A LOT of students aged 16-19 that would normally still be in high school.

 

I can't get too worked up about this. I don't see why more mature students should have to stay in high school if they are capable enough to do the work at the c.c.

[happypamama]

When I was in high school, I was part of a program that allowed high school students to take math and English classes for dual credit at a local branch of a big university. I also took history and social studies courses there too. (It was a university similar to the one I ultimately attended, so my credits transferred easily.) It got me through college a year early, which saved me a full year of out-of-state tuition (and more importantly, meant I graduated when DH did, so we could get married). In our case, the math and English classes were often sections of those classes designated for our special program, so there were usually only a few other students besides the ones in our program in the class, and the professors were there to be supportive of us, and it was a great program that let us make the transition between high school and college very smoothly. For the history and social studies classes, nobody knew we were teens unless we said anything, but we were always treated well and did just fine.

 

I wholeheartedly support dual enrollment, although I think it's somewhat sad that the last year or two of high school is so similar to the first year of college. I know our local high school had a lot of AP classes anyway, and for some students, those are a better option; AP tests were too high-pressure, one-time for me, but going to a class every week and plugging away was a much better option for me. Otoh, my DH had access to the same high school and college classes, and AP classes were a much better choice for him (both of us graduated from our university having transferred 6 credits of US history there before starting -- his from the AP exam, mine from the other university's classes), so I think it's great when students have both options. But if the majority of students want one vs. the other, well, sometimes that's a casualty that has to happen, if the less-wanted option is too small to be viable. That's just life.

[Haiku]

What is FL?

[Ravin]

I think dual enrollment should be tweaked by the institution to meet students' needs. The program I went in to had a whole dorm-ful of high school students, and while the courses were the same as regular students' we had separate sections so we were all kept together, at least until elective options were made available the second year. I think that was a good idea.

 

What was not a good idea was sticking STEM-focused students in honors English classes, or dropping a bunch of kids who'd never been challenged in high school into a very full (15 credits the first semester) without any experience or explicit instruction in how to study OR supervision of the studying. I didn't do so hot for both those reasons.

 

As for the high schools, if dual enrollment is supplanting other advanced programs, lose the other programs or make them semi-independent study (solo courses that can be completed in the computer lab at school). They could be using those resources to better meet the needs of the students they do have.

[Ellie]

As for the high schools, if dual enrollment is supplanting other advanced programs, lose the other programs or make them semi-independent study (solo courses that can be completed in the computer lab at school). They could be using those resources to better meet the needs of the students they do have.

 

:iagree:

[flyingiguana]

It's getting harder to find dual enrollment options around here because the colleges are cutting back.

 

Based on the stern warnings that were given to my daughter's group who came through a few years ago, I gather that they were having a lot of problems with immaturity with these kids.  Obviously not all of them, but it's definitely not an isolated incident.  The college she did DE at dropped it the year after she was in it.  It wasn't worth their time.  The faculty were complaining and the college wasn't getting much benefit in terms of later recruitment.

 

The college where I work used to do DE a long, long time ago, but they dropped it for similar reasons.  It takes too much faculty time to deal with what are basically behavior problems.  There have recently been discussions about doing it again.  The college sees it as a great recruitment tool.  The faculty remember what they had to go through before.  I doubt it's going to happen anytime soon.

 

I also have heard from "regular" students at the big U nearby that the DE kids in their classes are a terrible pain.  They're disruptive and don't care.  It seems like a party to them and makes it difficult for the "real" college students to get the education they are paying for from the faculty.  I'm hearing this from 18-22 yr olds, not the non-traditional older students everyone here seems to think must be complaining.

 

There are a few kids who can do DE, who benefit from it, who actually bring something to the classroom rather than detract.  But my impression is that they're few and far between, and that wholesale dumping of bright high school kids into the college system is of no use to anyone concerned.  Also, most of the DE kids out of the ps high schools have to fulfill high school requirements with their DE classes.  They usually discover that the courses they have to take don't do a thing to help them graduate early from college, as they weren't part of the track that would have gotten them through faster.

 

And a lot of parents really have no idea whether their kids are ready for this or not.  Usually the parents who are most vociferous about their kids being able to benefit have kids who are the most disruptive and the least ready for the college classroom.  I know this because a few have snuck into our college classrooms where I work over the past few years, even though DE was "officially" banned on the campus.  The parents made a huge stink, so, yes, their kids were let in, but when the kids proved they couldn't handle the material by flunking out, they were just transferred to another college for more DE.

 

The sad thing is, I think there are kids who would get a lot of benefit out of it, but they're finding roadblocks put up precisely because the system seems to mostly be taking in those kids who are a pain and won't get anything out of it.

 

The ps high schools really need to be doing a better job of keeping these kids in an educational environment that's appropriate, rather than just farming them out.  And they have supposedly made efforts in that direction, but the efforts have been a miserable failure. 

[flyingiguana]

Is there really a huge difference between a 16ish year old and say an 18ish year old?  There could be, but I'd suspect on average not.  So I'm wondering if the older students wouldn't complain anyways.  And I can totally see this.  When I have taken college courses where there was one or two clearly older adults they did have a very different approach to the course and sometimes asked different sorts of questions. 

 

Such is life.  You deal with all walks of life.  I don't see the big deal.

 

There is a big difference between 16 and 18.  There's a huge amount of development that occurs, even up to 20.  The difference between what behavior one can expect out of a freshman vs a junior is also pretty striking.  And it's not just the fact that they've gotten used to the college environment.  Students who enter a year late are a whole lot more mature than the standard-entry student in a freshman class.  It can be painfully obvious who the 16 year olds are in a class.

 

College is designed for a certain maturity level.  If a 16 yr old isn't at that level (it's not just a matter of academics) shouldn't be in the college classroom.  Problem is, it's difficult to determine which kids are and which aren't. 

 

As I said in my last post, there are a few 16 year olds who are ready, but a lot of them aren't.  And with the rush to DE in recent years, no one seems to have realized this.

[Jenny in Florida]

My thoughts are that the students are not their "for the school," the school (both cc *and* high school) is supposed to be there *FOR THE STUDENT.*

Speaking as a person who feels her own educational opportunities were compromised by the "If all the smart kids leave, it's bad for the schools" thinking, I have to say you hit the nail on the head.

 

If the criteria for enrollment in these programs needs to be adjusted so that young students who are genuinely not ready to be there and be appropriately engaged do not detract unreasonably from the experience of the traditionally-aged students, that's entirely fair game. But what I usually hear from the folks I know who teach in community colleges is that the dual enrolled students tend to be more engaged, better prepared and much more rewarding to teach than the older students. So, I suspect it isn't really much of a problem.

[regentrude]

The college she did DE at dropped it the year after she was in it.  It wasn't worth their time.  The faculty were complaining and the college wasn't getting much benefit in terms of later recruitment.

 ...

The college where I work used to do DE a long, long time ago, but they dropped it for similar reasons.  It takes too much faculty time to deal with what are basically behavior problems. ...

 

I also have heard from "regular" students at the big U nearby that the DE kids in their classes are a terrible pain.  They're disruptive and don't care.  It seems like a party to them and makes it difficult for the "real" college students to get the education they are paying for from the faculty.

Question for you: is your DE free?

We pay regular tuition for DD's university classes. I can not imagine that with a model where parents PAY there would be major behavior or attitude problems, because they would do so only for motivated and qualified students, not to have underperforming and ill behaving studnet be baysat to the tune of lots of $$.

[*Lulu*]

Speaking as a person who feels her own educational opportunities were compromised by the "If all the smart kids leave, it's bad for the schools" thinking, I have to say you hit the nail on the head.

 

If the criteria for enrollment in these programs needs to be adjusted so that young students who are genuinely not ready to be there and be appropriately engaged do not detract unreasonably from the experience of the traditionally-aged students, that's entirely fair game. But what I usually hear from the folks I know who teach in community colleges is that the dual enrolled students tend to be more engaged, better prepared and much more rewarding to teach than the older students. So, I suspect it isn't really much of a problem.

I totally agree that if there are issues of students who are not prepared for the work or the environment it is on the CC to put guidelines in place that weed out the unready.

 

I know in the early 90's the local gifted programs allowed for DE, but the % of students involved was relatively small. If there was a larger group of HS age students on campus, not all with high levels of interest or maturity, I can see where it could become a problem for a campus.

[Cinder]

Question for you: is your DE free?

We pay regular tuition for DD's university classes. I can not imagine that with a model where parents PAY there would be major behavior or attitude problems, because they would do so only for motivated and qualified students, not to have underperforming and ill behaving studnet be baysat to the tune of lots of $$.

 

The DE here pays for tuition; students pay fees, books, parking (if needed). At least for our program the matter of paying tuition doesn't seem to be the big factor. I think it has to do with the expectations the DE program has put forth. DE students are required to have grades and test scores above the average required for freshman applicants. (Nothing rivaling what a prestigious school would expect, but still, higher than average--3.0 vs 2.5 gpa, 1100 vs 950 SAT.) They also need to have the school counselor's recommendation. The way our counselor put it, when we met with her, was that the DE expects the schools will only recommend students that they truly think are ready--motivated and qualified, as you say. (Homeschool students have a different procedure but I'm not familiar with it.) That may account for 97% of DE students continuing after their first semester. Students need to have earned at least a C in each class to be allowed to continue.

 

I wonder if some of the DE programs mentioned here have less rigorous admissions requirements than the one ds was in. Maybe that's a factor?

[Miss Peregrine]

Our DE costs about $40/semester plus books. The units are free.

The applicants have the same requirements that regular college students have.

[Dmmetler]

I wonder how many of these problems could be averted if the colleges did what CMU required in the late 1980s-that in order to do early admission, you had to start out in the summer, in a semi-sheltered program (where you were taking college classes, but were clustered in the dorms with high school age students and had some extra social activities as options within that group). It showed pretty fast who wasn't ready for a college load/college life.

 

 

[flyingiguana]

The DE here pays for tuition; students pay fees, books, parking (if needed). At least for our program the matter of paying tuition doesn't seem to be the big factor. I think it has to do with the expectations the DE program has put forth. DE students are required to have grades and test scores above the average required for freshman applicants. (Nothing rivaling what a prestigious school would expect, but still, higher than average--3.0 vs 2.5 gpa, 1100 vs 950 SAT.) They also need to have the school counselor's recommendation. The way our counselor put it, when we met with her, was that the DE expects the schools will only recommend students that they truly think are ready--motivated and qualified, as you say. (Homeschool students have a different procedure but I'm not familiar with it.) That may account for 97% of DE students continuing after their first semester. Students need to have earned at least a C in each class to be allowed to continue.

 

I wonder if some of the DE programs mentioned here have less rigorous admissions requirements than the one ds was in. Maybe that's a factor?

 

We've got similar admissions requirements here.  But this doesn't weed out the problems.  Test scores are probably not really testing maturity level.

 

The state pays for it, but not at the level it probably actually costs the college.  Most colleges only let the DE kids register once the other students have all registered.  I think the colleges see it as a way of getting a little extra money for unfilled seats and as a recruitment tool, but they realize it doesn't really pay for itself.  It sort of looks like it doesn't cost the college "anything", except the increased work load on the faculty.  But increased work for the faculty makes the faculty unable to do as much per student, thus lowering the amount of instruction the regular students get.

 

[Alenee]

We're considering DE with our first but maturity has a lot to do with it. If she's mature enough, we'll probably go for it. Our local high school, which she'll be attending in the fall, does not like the DE program because it does remove the high-scoring students from their roll. However, they did not hesitate to inform us of the option to DE during our counseling session. I've spoken with a friend who returned to college in her 40s and she did say the level of discussion in the classes was lowered due to the DE students' maturity level. That really bothered her. However, when I brought that up to my sister who did the CC track to Uni, she called my friend's opinion hogwash, stating that CC is there for all sorts of student needs and that one has to take control of their own education. She said that if a student isn't getting from class what they desired for their education, to go out and find it on their own. And ime, it didn't seem to matter the age of the students in my classes. We had immature 40yos and mature 18yos. I think it really is about the student's goals and why they've chosen to be in school at all. If they're driven, their age won't matter.

[Cinder]

We've got similar admissions requirements here.  But this doesn't weed out the problems.  Test scores are probably not really testing maturity level.

 

The state pays for it, but not at the level it probably actually costs the college.  Most colleges only let the DE kids register once the other students have all registered.  I think the colleges see it as a way of getting a little extra money for unfilled seats and as a recruitment tool, but they realize it doesn't really pay for itself.  It sort of looks like it doesn't cost the college "anything", except the increased work load on the faculty.  But increased work for the faculty makes the faculty unable to do as much per student, thus lowering the amount of instruction the regular students get.

 

 

Seems like your DE program is of a different mindset. Here DE students are part of the honors program and register before the rest of the student body.

[Ottakee]

Our local highschool does this differently. They now offer a special 5 year highschool program........where the students complete the highschool requirements AND get a 2 year associates degree in the 5 years. The classes are held at the highschool and fit into the normal highschool day. It is newer so not sure how popular/effective it is but getting those 2 years of college out of the way would be a huge cost savings.

[msk]

I think how / how much this benefits the student can vary a lot, depending on the program.  I know I got a MUCH better education in my excellent AP English class in high school than I would have in a standard "Freshman English" class in either the CC or the State U where I've taught.  Ironically, this is largely because of the other students; my peers in AP English were the "top of the heap" on that attribute in my high school and we did high level work, whereas there can be a *lot* of not-so-serious 18yos in an average intro-level college class to drag things down. 

 

When we're talking about a course that's not offered in high school, things may or may not be different.  At the 2-yr CC where I teach, my specialty is something few high schools would have, but is only offered in very introductory courses.  I have a huge mix-- some 30- to 50-somethings, some extremely bright students of all ages, and some 18yos who act 16, are utterly unprepared, and do quite poorly.  I do offer open-ended assignments and activities to give the more advanced students an outlet for higher-level work, but their peer group in class is going to be VERY mixed and that limits what we can do in class.  If the school and/or the course prereqs make the class more difficult to get into, things are quite different (like upper division and honors section classes); those are the more worthwhile courses for serious students, but also the ones where a high school student might stick out more in terms of maturity level.

[flyingiguana]

We're considering DE with our first but maturity has a lot to do with it. If she's mature enough, we'll probably go for it. Our local high school, which she'll be attending in the fall, does not like the DE program because it does remove the high-scoring students from their roll. However, they did not hesitate to inform us of the option to DE during our counseling session. I've spoken with a friend who returned to college in her 40s and she did say the level of discussion in the classes was lowered due to the DE students' maturity level. That really bothered her. However, when I brought that up to my sister who did the CC track to Uni, she called my friend's opinion hogwash, stating that CC is there for all sorts of student needs and that one has to take control of their own education. She said that if a student isn't getting from class what they desired for their education, to go out and find it on their own. And ime, it didn't seem to matter the age of the students in my classes. We had immature 40yos and mature 18yos. I think it really is about the student's goals and why they've chosen to be in school at all. If they're driven, their age won't matter.

 

One immature, bossy student in a class can *seriously* change the tone of the class and make the whole semester a worthless disaster for all concerned.  It's not about seizing your own education, if some other bozo in the class has decided to seize all the attention for him/herself.  This may not be so much the case outside STEM fields.  But in STEM, one often needs the material explained.  If class time is wasted on immaturity problems, that makes it that much harder to get questions answered.  There are only so many hours in the day.  The teacher doesn't want to have to redo the lecture individually for each student in office hours because lecture time was wasted, and students may not even have the time to get to office hours.  Class meeting is that one time when everyone's available, so it's best to use it effectively.

 

I've been on both sides of this, as student and teacher.  It's no fun having students in a class who feel it is their right to take over the class with their opinions.  Voicing an opinion?  Fine.  Having the whole class discuss it for a few minutes?  Fine.  But spending each and every class period going on and on about oneSELF is too much.  Particularly when the boor in question really knows nothing about the subject.

 

OK, getting off the topic here.  There are many DE students who don't do this.  I suppose, though, that one always remembers the few who did, and tars the whole group as a problem.

 

I've seen older "non-traditional" students do this too, though.  With them, it may be a problem of self-esteem?  Maybe, here I am back in school with some youngster telling me what to think?  I dunno.  For everyone, it's best to check the oversize egos at the door.  Student and teacher alike.