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Demonizing Public School- discussion.


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My MIL is actually of the second type- they are very opposed to gov't run schools, etc. If it were the first, she would likely have actually customized anything for all of her children. I will say, she provided them with an excellent "creative" experience (encouraged artistic/musical pursuits), but it ended there. I have a BIL who learned to read at 16, only two years before he graduated high school. She never pursued any outside intervention, and this brother has no major learning issues otherwise.

 

So? What does doing a bad job with academics have to do with thinking education isn't a proper role of government? She doesn't think it's a role of government. There are homeschoolers I know who do an outstanding job with academics who think education isn't a proper role of government. If you would like to make the case that it is a proper role for government go right ahead. My point is, she has different convictions and the topic. So do other homeschoolers. Why does this bother you? Why do you think verbalizing different views is a bad thing?

 

 

I don't care that she specifically adopts my views. I am a pretty laid back person. My husband and I are very open and accepting. It's hard to see others (especially family members that you live close to, and have to visit often) demonize or criticize without having any actual experience, knowledge or research on a topic.

 

Why is that hard for a confident and capable adult? I would call that Tuesday. I'm not going to get into arguing that people only verbalize what I consider informed, knowledgeable, researched options. It would be a much quieter world if that happened but it's not going to. I want the ignorant speaking up so I can identify them right away and not be deceived by their silence.

 

I'm a homebirth, extended nursing, non-vaccinating, homeschooling mom. I've adopted internationally which is a magnet for very negative comments on the internet. Nothing I've done has been mainstream. I've heard ludicrous, ignorant, remarkably uniformed opinions about all of those choices. I've also heard people making the same choices I have made say ludicrous, ignorant, remarkably uniformed things about the mainstream choices. If I found it hard to hear different points of view I would have to lock myself in a closet with pillows over my ears and give up any hope of a happy contented life.

 

Trying to get everyone to agree to your standards is pissing in the wind. It's also a drain on the quality of your life.

 

What if you just accepted that she's not going to change your mind and you're not going to change hers? I have. I started this as a discussion about the HS community as a whole, though the discussion started with my MIL.

 

Did you assume your MIL's convictions were unique to her, or did you think this was an age old controversy that's been around as long as hsing has been? Do you genuinely think people are going to change their minds from one camp to the other? I'm not being snarky here because I do live in the largest homeschooling community in the US. (Or at least it was a few years ago. The county PHX is in has 10,000 homeschooled kids in it. That doesn't count the kids who are doing ps at home online because AZ doesn't legally recognize them as homeschoolers. For those that do consider them homeschoolers, it would shoot that number up higher.) I'm encountering far too many hsers from all over the spectrum who are genuinely surprised other homeschoolers are so dramatically different than them.

 

In my 13 years of homeschooling I cannot count the number of times I have heard people lament that the homeschooling community is too _____________________________ for their tastes and they wish they could find better homeschooling support. Too conservative. Too liberal. Too Christian. Too secular. Too academic. Too manual labor. Too character oriented. Too this. Too that. Everyone is anti-ps. Everyone is pro-ps. All I hear in my head when they say things like that is, "If only everyone saw it my way , it would all be better."

 

Certainly don't need approval. Didn't need it when I met DH as a young teenager and she didn't want us talking, didn't need it when we got married (she told us less than a week before our wedding it wasn't the "right" time), etc. I care because I spend (IMO way too much) time with this woman who tries to tell me how to homeschool my children,

 

Then don't spend as much time with her and set a boundary regarding her unwanted advice.

 

when she did a terrible job of it herself. She tells us to not to academics, because character training is SO much more important. DH and I don't have to see why it is either/or... all or nothing. We plan to have a strong academic background for our children, as well as character studies. What it comes down to is- listening to her babble is annoying. But, ultimately I don't really care what she thinks.

 

Your post does not at all give the impression you don't care. You said before it's hard for you to hear people (especially close relatives) criticize you when they don't meet your criteria for opinion formation. If you're having boundary issues with your MIL then you need to set the boundaries and enforce them. You can simply tell her what you just told us one time in a calm, pleasant tone of voice and then refuse to talk about it more. There are plenty of threads about setting boundaries with relatives. You and your husband have to set limits about spending time there are how you will act and react when you're there.

 

 

I wasn't serious that I would decide not to homeschool because of other's opinions. I was mostly joking that I would like to send my son to PS just to spite my MIL. But the truth is, I DO think my son could receive a quality education at a PS.

 

Some homeschoolers will agree with you and others won't. You'll point out why he could and they'll point out why he couldn't. Get used to that in the hs community. There are different people with different ideas. You're not going to change their minds. Be glad we have differences in thought. I won't attend a church where everyone homeschools. Why? Because even monolithic thought that makes the same choices I do or has the same motivations I do is monolithic thought. It's always better to spend some time around groups of people that have different ideas than me.

 

However, for our family homeschooling will be best. Homeschooling isn't something I know next to nothing about. As I said before, I have been highly involved in our homeschooling community for over ten years. It isn't something that I would ever give up because of other's opinions. And the idea that one needs to justify what works for their family is ridiculous to me.

 

I hear people say this all the time and I have to ask, Do people really demand you justify your choices? Every situation I've been in people were just making chit chat about what they do. Anytime I've seen anyone justify their behavior, no one ever actually NEEDED to. They did it on their own. I've heard many a ps parent go off for a long time on how great their ps is when all that happened was, they asked me what school my kids went to. I said, "We homeschool." and bam! On and on they go with endless details about their school. The "need" to explain was a product of their imagination. I've watched homeschoolers do the same thing. If no one asked, "Why do you homeschool?" or "Why are you homeschooling that particular way?" then no one cares. No need to volunteer an explanation.

 

Would be nice, but this problem is more about MIL/my relationship than the issue at hand. My MIL's diatribe against PS last night sparked a bit of thought in my head about mommy wars and it extending far past the young child age (where it seems like it would stop). It extends into when children are grown, and mothers who are unsure in their past decisions (could I have done it better?) need to justify it to nobody but themselves that they did the right thing.

 

Or they're simply talking about things based on their genuine convictions and not based on an insecurity. Some people do it out of conviction and some out of insecurity. It's a bad idea to lump them all together.

 

So what if they're doing it for any given reason? Shutting down debate or discussions people choose to participate in is unnecessary. Simply decide for yourself if you're going to participate or not. If people want to argue about something I think is pointless, then they can. I'm not their referee, their mamma, or their Holy Spirit.

 

Overall, it is a complaint of our very conservative, Christian homeschooling community and their view on homeschooling versus public schooling. As someone else mentioned, it's a "holier than thou" perspective.

 

If someone does something because they believe it's the right thing is it automatically holier than thou? When you do something you believe it is the right thing to do are you being holier than thou? And so what if they are? Do you really think people who genuinely do have a sinful, pride based, holier than thou attitude are going to change their minds if you point it out?

 

Around here, there is also a large element of elitism present- we can afford to do this, look at us. In MIL's case, she just can't see why anyone (single mothers included) can't just quit their job so their kids don't have to go to the terrible and evil government run schools. That sort of thinking is obviously delusional (which isn't uncommon).

 

Really!?!? I have never once heard anyone say they think a single mother could homeschool. Most can't. I've also heard people sound shocked at hearing about the very few single mothers I've known that were able to manage working and homeschooling. I've heard plenty of people claim they couldn't possibly afford to homeschool and then look surprised when I point out that there are people with more kids than they have homeschooling on one income that was less than their profession usually makes. When they ask how I point out the lifestyle norms of most of the homeschoolers I know, they seem surprised people would be willing to live so humbly without any extras. So there's a lot of discussion than can happen either way on that.

 

You seem to make a lot of assumptions about the mindset of the people you disagree with. Elitism, delusion, insecurities, etc. Be very careful when telling others what someone thinks when they haven't told you directly themselves. That's a recipe for trouble. I don't know anyone who would like it.

 

To address the last sentence- as I said it would be nice to have a list of things to talk about and actually be able to use it. My MIL is all about herself and has a list of unimportant, ridiculous things to "talk" (one sided) about for hours at a time. I honestly had a recent conversation (well, I listened to her conversation with herself) that lasted about 20 minutes as to what color she should paint her front door. As I listed above, I also listened to her talk for over 10 minutes about what her instagram account name will be- she has been debating this for months (seriously? who has time for this?), but as I said that issue is another issue altogether and shouldn't really be lumped into the homeschooling demonization topic.

 

One person's demonization is another's legitimate criticism. I would bet most people on this board would have different criteria for what is "demonization." In general, using such dramatic, subjective language doesn't set up a productive, constructive discussion. It's usually better to stick to direct quotes and specific philosophical points of view.

 

There are plenty of threads here about annoying relatives incapable of back and forth, give and take, 2 way conversations. You're not going to change your MIL. You can have a generous attitude and listen to her talk for what ever amount of time you and your husband have specified for your visit and later spend time with people who appreciate your input or you can sit there and resent her monologues. You can set limits with her about unwanted advice and frequency of visits and take the consequences or you can let people overstep their boundaries and take the consequences.

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So? What does doing a bad job with academics have to do with thinking education isn't a proper role of government? She doesn't think it's a role of government. There are homeschoolers I know who do an outstanding job with academics who think education isn't a proper role of government. If you would like to make the case that it is a proper role for government go right ahead. My point is, she has different convictions and the topic. So do other homeschoolers. Why does this bother you? Why do you think verbalizing different views is a bad thing?

 

 

 

 

I think you are taking my words out of context- I replied that she was of the second type (someone opposed to government run schools), not of the first who homeschools to primarily completely customize the curriculum and educational choices of her children. This is not her. That is why I said if she was of the first type, she would have cared more about the academic offerings (of which there were none) to her children. I don't care that she has a different opinion. I care about vehement, angry arguments... especially when they are presented in front of my children. I also care because my husband was "educated" by her and had a serious problem when he entered college. It took him an extra year to catch up with high school (and lower) level classes to be able to attend. I also have several brothers and sisters in law who are still under her wing. They have a long road ahead of them. I care about under-education of children, whether public, private or home and I certainly care about it when it is our own family. Using the guise of "homeschooling" to keep your children home, isolated (the only friends the siblings need are each other), and uneducated is abhorrent. To think that is better than public schools, just because? Plain sad for the children who have no choice in the subject. Anyway, that is all I will say on that subject.

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when she did a terrible job of it herself. She tells us to not to academics, because character training is SO much more important. DH and I don't have to see why it is either/or... all or nothing. We plan to have a strong academic background for our children, as well as character studies. What it comes down to is- listening to her babble is annoying. But, ultimately I don't really care what she thinks.

 

Your post does not at all give the impression you don't care. You said before it's hard for you to hear people (especially close relatives) criticize you when they don't meet your criteria for opinion formation. If you're having boundary issues with your MIL then you need to set the boundaries and enforce them. You can simply tell her what you just told us one time in a calm, pleasant tone of voice and then refuse to talk about it more. There are plenty of threads about setting boundaries with relatives. You and your husband have to set limits about spending time there are how you will act and react when you're there.

 

 

I don't care that she objects to strong academics. She would never, ever be able to change my mind that academics are not an important part of homeschooling. That is specifically what I ultimately do not care about. She will object to our homeschooling method, and I don't care.

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I haven't read all the other replies because I'm sure everyone has had different experiences with this sort of thing.

I will say that I get really annoyed when people assume things about the public schools that are not necessarily correct. To the point that when we decided to homeschool, I emphatically pointed out that it had NOTHING to do with our public school experiences with the boys, but was a decision based solely on what worked for us. We have had people in our area who say things like, 'Well, the public school is not even an option' in a very snotty tone when I know for a fact that they are basing their opinion of it on hearsay. I think it's a stupid way for those people to act. I've ALWAYS felt it was a stupid way for those people to act, when I was a public school parent and as a homeschool parent.

I try to make sure that people know that our experience with the public schools (though limited) was great. I make sure not to say bad things about the school because, honestly, what do I actually know about it? I get so annoyed with that around here... we have a couple of private Christian schools and a private non-Christian school and people are constantly talking about how bad the PS system is here. Educationally I know that it isn't up to great standards (I know that much from the facts reported in the newspaper, etc) but I do see a whole lot of demonizing of the school here, as well as the 'public schooled kids' around here.

I'll also point out that before I understood the full workings of HSLDA (I wasn't a member, but got their emails or something, which I no longer do because I can't stand them) and got their correspondences, I saw a whole heck of a lot of demonizing of PS there. A lot of the talk was about how bad the government is and how they are consistently trying to take away our rights and how terrible the PS is because of XYZ... It was obnoxious.

It's ALL sickening and obnoxious. I can't stand that there are people who are so judgmental of it.

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I think you are taking my words out of context- I replied that she was of the second type (someone opposed to government run schools), not of the first who homeschools to primarily completely customize the curriculum and educational choices of her children. This is not her.

 

You missed my point entirely. BOTH groups have categorical philosophical objections to ps. Which ever category she's in, she has a completely different set of convictions and you're not going to change her mind. Stop wasting your time on this with her and everyone else. It's as pointless as trying to convince someone of a different denomination that your Scriptural interpretations are right an theirs is wrong. It's like trying to get someone to change their political convictions-they're not going to. It's like trying to convince someone who schedules crib sleeping to co-sleep. It's like trying to get a bottle feeder to relactate and breastfeed. You're just volunteering yourself for another battle in the mommy wars.

 

That is why I said if she was of the first type, she would have cared more about the academic offerings (of which there were none) to her children. I don't care that she has a different opinion. I care about vehement, angry arguments... especially when they are presented in front of my children.

 

Then you and your husband need to set healthy limits about what you are going to allow around your kids and what you aren't. You'll have to plan ahead when you will leave or ask her to leave. Don't keep going back there and trying to get her to behave or trying to convince her to behave. She's not going to. Stop trying to manage other adults-you can't. You can only manage yourselves.

 

I also care because my husband was "educated" by her and had a serious problem when he entered college. It took him an extra year to catch up with high school (and lower) level classes to be able to attend. I also have several brothers and sisters in law who are still under her wing. They have a long road ahead of them. I care about under-education of children, whether public, private or home and I certainly care about it when it is our own family. Using the guise of "homeschooling" to keep your children home, isolated (the only friends the siblings need are each other), and uneducated is abhorrent. To think that is better than public schools, just because? Plain sad for the children who have no choice in the subject. Anyway, that is all I will say on that subject.

 

You can't control other law abiding citizens just because you strongly disagree with them. If you have grounds for accusing them them under your state's educational neglect laws then go ahead, but if it falls short of that you can't fix everyone else's bad decisions. You can't make someone else a good parent. There are things other people do that I consider bad and damaging to children, but it's not my job to intervene unless it's criminal. I've seen crappy homeschooling but nothing criminal. If I did, I'd turn them in and let the state handle it.

 

Your MIL has made her parenting decisions and now you make your parenting decisions. You can offer tutoring to your husband's siblings, but inserting yourself between your MIL and her minor children is asking for serious trouble that can permanently damage your extended family relationships. Do you think other people should intervene in how you parent?

 

I ask that as someone who has had to look up how to turn in my brother's spouse for what might have been abuse and put him on notice that if he didn't intervene with his spouse I would absolutely do it. He got it together and reigned her in more forcefully and my sources of information closer to the children are on notice to inform me if they see anything that crosses the legal line. If any abuse ever happens I'm obligated to immediately intervene legally. Until then I simply pointed out my concerns once and explained what I would do it ever became legally recognized abuse. I volunteered to help with the kids any time in any way. Then I kept it to myself and kept my eyes and ears open.

 

You can volunteer to help with academics with your husband's siblings to give your MIL a break, but short of that there's not much you can do. Pouring all this emotional energy into being upset about her homeschooling views and practices and other homeschoolers' views and practices is a decision that will only cost you in the long run.

 

 

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