s/o Paleo: why not legumes?

[Jane in NC]

A poster in the debunking "paleo" thread mentioned her love of legumes which I share. In fact, I have a cupboard filled with all sorts of interesting beans from ordinary black beans and lentils to beautiful yellow eyes and mayacobas.

 

Beans are fiber filled, tasty and nutritious. Beans may not be paleolithic but archaeologists have found anasazi beans in a clay pot that are over 1500 years old. If we are looking to the past for elements of a good diet, why not beans?

[poppy]

Paleo is just the currently trendy way of saying "low / no carbs". Legumes are not low carb, so, they are forbidden or only allowed in very limited quantities.

[Matryoshka]

Paleo is just the currently trendy way of saying "low / no carbs". Legumes are not low carb, so, they are forbidden or only allowed in very limited quantities.

 

 

They are cultivated, I think that's the Paleo objection. They are not higher carb than fruit, which is allowed as much as you want on Paleo, as I understand it.

 

I often do the South Beach diet, which is fairly low-carb, and it allows me as many legumes as I want, even in Phase 1 - but no fruit, and later only in limited quantities.

[JuanitaL]

A poster in the debunking "paleo" thread mentioned her love of legumes which I share. In fact, I have a cupboard filled with all sorts of interesting beans from ordinary black beans and lentils to beautiful yellow eyes and mayacobas.

 

Beans are fiber filled, tasty and nutritious. Beans may not be paleolithic but archaeologists have found anasazi beans in a clay pot that are over 1500 years old. If we are looking to the past for elements of a good diet, why not beans?

 

My mom thinks I'm really adventurous because I regularly buy black beans, garbanzos and lentils - growing up, beans for dinner meant a bag of navy beans, maybe pinto beans with a generous helping of catsup. (When I was about 12 my older brother had a Hispanic friend who lived with us for a little while - I can still remember his baffled look when we poured catsup all over our beans.) I would love a little instruction from a bean Yoda ... do you buy all your beans locally, or do you have a favorite site you order some of them from? Any easy but unusual recipes to try?

[Jane in NC]

They are cultivated, I think that's the Paleo objection. They are not higher carb than fruit, which is allowed as much as you want on Paleo, as I understand it.

 

I often do the South Beach diet, which is fairly low-carb, and it allows me as many legumes as I want, even in Phase 1 - but no fruit, and later only in limited quantities.

 

The cultivation issue was my initial thought but most modern produce is highly cultivated. In the video that Michelle had attached to her thread, the archaeologist mentioned how different modern avocados and lettuces are from their ancient ancestors. So I did not think cultivation would be permitted for one type of produce, but not another. Sweet potatoes, for example, have been cultivated for thousands of years.

[Murphy101]

I copied this directly from the website. Edited to add: I got this from the whole9life site, which is the basis for whole30.

 

Legumes

 

Legumes are a botanical family of plants that include dozens of varieties of beans, lentils, garbanzos, peas, soybeans, and peanuts. (Note, the coffee, cocoa, and vanilla “beans†are not, botanically speaking, legumes, and thus are excluded from this particular discussion.) While eating plants would generally be thought of as healthy, the part of the legume that we eat is actually the seed of the legume plant. As with grains, the seeds of legumes store a large amount of energy in the form of carbohydrate, which may or may not support healthy metabolic function (pending your individual context and health history).

 

Legumes are often recommended as a healthy dietary choice, based on their fiber, vitamins and minerals, and “high†protein content. But legumes aren’t really a dense protein source (most contain two to three times as much carbohydrate as protein), and they’re nowhere near as dense (or complete) as the protein found in meat, seafood, or eggs. In addition, when compared to vegetables and fruit, legumes pale in comparison in both micronutrient density and fiber.

 

Some legumes also contain considerable amounts of phytates — anti-nutrients which bind to minerals in the legumes, rendering them unavailable to our bodies. (This means some of the minerals technically present in the legumes aren’t able to be accessed by our bodies — and means that legumes aren’t as micronutrient-dense as nutrition data might suggest.*)

 

*Ancient cultures figured out that rinsing, prolonged soaking, cooking, and fermenting legumes reduces the anti-nutrient content. If you choose to eat legumes, we highly recommend you also take these steps to mitigate some of the potential downsides.

 

In addition, because some of the short-chain carbohydrates (sugars) found in legumes aren’t properly digested and absorbed in the digestive tract, they can act as food for bacteria living in the intestines. These bacteria then “ferment†these carbohydrates, which can create unpleasant symptoms like gas and bloating, and potentially contribute to gut dysbiosis – an inherently inflammatory condition.

[Murphy101]

And whole30 isn't entirely no legumes, tho they are generally.

 

I can still have green beans, snap peas (but not just peas, the thinking being that snao and snow peas are mostly pod than pea, thus im actually eating the plant part, not just seed) and iirc a couple other things.

 

ETA: it's not been too hard for me. One, the only bean I like are black beans. And two, I can't have them in any of the forms I enjoy them and otherwise stick to the plan. No rice, no chips, no tortillas... :)

[Mnemosyne]

The phytates in legumes is the reason I've most seen for not allowing them in a Paleo diet. They aren't the worst thing you can eat, but just aren't the best source of any nutrient. They are a bit higher in carbs and many people aren't willing to prepare them properly, leaving the 'good' stuff hard to digest and not very bioavailable due to the phytates.

[Jane in NC]

Off to read about phytates. Thanks ladies.

[Greta]

Paleo is just the currently trendy way of saying "low / no carbs". Legumes are not low carb, so, they are forbidden or only allowed in very limited quantities.

 

 

Not really. Paleo diets are not necessarily low-carb (they include more root vegetables and fruits than most low-carb diets allow) and low-carb diets are not necessarily paleo (often include dairy and things like whey protein and other processed foods that most paleo people would shun).

 

Paleo diets, in my understanding, shun legumes because they contain three things that are questionable: phytates, lectins, and oligosaccharides. People have varying degrees of tolerances to these, so some people can eat legumes without any problems. Others like myself pay a price of abdominal pain and digestive problems. If you google "paleo and legumes" you can find some articles about it. It's not something I've read much about, to be honest, because I just know that I can't eat legumes, even though I'm not on a paleo diet.

[Murphy101]

So far my experience of whole30 is not that it says everything is awful evil to eat scare tactics. It's more that it's a way of making sure what you eat is very high in protein and nutrients. That's why you can have sweet potatoes, but not the other potatoes, for example.

 

And that does fit my general philosophy about eating. Everytime we eat something we shouldn't, it is taking the place of something we should. So it's sort of a double wammy to the diet. We are only going to eat so much on any given day. Having cake isn't just bad for its lack of nutrient value, it's bad because chances are if I eat cake, I'm not also eating eggs or avocado or whatever. Whereas if I eat a quality meal, I should be full enough to not be able to eat much cake, if any. (I'm just using cake as a simple example. I don't even like cake. Replace with whatever whole30 says is verboten.)

 

To me, it's no different than saying to not drink your calories. It's not necessarily bc what you want to drink is some awful evil bad for you thing that couldn't possibly have anything good about it. It's because drinking your calories tends to take the place of actual food that is healthier and better for you. So coffee might be okay, but never has a replacement for an actual decent breakfast.

[Murphy101]

I don't feel low carb at all. I do feel high quality carbs. Just like I don't feel I'm eating a fatty diet in the way most people think. Extra lean meats, nuts, and fatty foods like avocado are high fats, but it's good fats. The kind that fight bad fats. To me, this isn't some crazy wackado fad diet with weird arbitrary rules of what to eat when. It's really very simple:

 

Avoid heavily processed food (which cuts out pasta, rice, dairy, grains, and sugars)

 

Avoid foods with lots of additives and preservatives (which is just another way of saying to seek whole foods)

 

Seek foods that are high in protein and nutrients (which means if given a choice between sweet potato or white potato, you eat the sweet potato)

 

There's a few other odds and ends in there that explain things like legumes, but the above seems to be the general basis. And I don't think that is particuliarly faddish or unreasonable.

 

I sound like a sales person. LOL. Really I don't care how other people eat. Im just saying why i am doing this and how it's affected me. One of the things I do like about whole30 is it starts as an elimination. After the 30 days, you see a big difference. Maybe you give a nibble of rice a try and see how it treats you. Or dairy. Some people won't feel like poo and will decide to reintroduce that in limited amounts. Some people will and then know their body needs to avoid it. For me, I had no idea that the foods I was eating were apparently a major contributor to feeling like crap in several ways. I feel like I was poisoned! And the few times I've gone off the path, I regretted it. Idk why so many people these days are not able to tolerate wheats or dairy or whatever their thing is. But it's impossible to ignore that it's a growing problem. There's something wrong with our food and how we consume it and it's making us sick and we don't even know it bc it's all most of us have ever known.

 

Off my soap box now. :)

[Jane in NC]

I am all about whole foods and have been for decades (old hippie that I am). So that I comprehend.

 

My cursory Internet reading on phytates and lectins leads to greater confusion. These are present in grains but also nuts and seeds--OK in the latter but not the former?

 

Further, some of you have a far greater understanding of biochemistry than I do. I cannot begin to understand the scholarly articles on the subject! So I'm with you, Wendy. I will eat a diet that I feel is best for me which includes whole grains, legumes, tons of veg, fish (usually local), fowl (usually local), some fruit. My tastes have changed over the years (or another topic--have fruits changed?). I don't really care for most grocery store fruit so I usually eat what is in season locally or what I have preserved, adding some citrus or bananas in the winter months. I'm pretty healthy so I guess it works for me.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Robb Wolf talks about the lectin content of beans being a bad thing for many people. I think he says lectins are gut irritants that lead to inflammation (although I may be remembering incorrectly). I think many paleo followers are more concerned about lectins than phytates.

 

And while paleo can be low carb, they are not synonymous. I am currently following autoimmune paleo and I am eating plenty of fruit and sweet potatoes. I want to get more yucca and parsnips, too.

[MIch elle]

According to Mark Sisson in his book The Primal Blueprint: "While legumes can serve as a decent source of protein, fiber, potassium, and antioxidants, they also provide significant levels of carbohydrate and those pesky antinutrient lectins." p. 174

[Greta]

Really I don't care how other people eat. Im just saying why i am doing this and how it's affected me.

 

I will eat a diet that I feel is best for me...

 

You know, I really think that is what this boils down to. We each have to find what works for us, and what doesn't. And that involves some experimentation. I was a vegetarian for five years, and I've experimented with veganism, macrobiotics, blood type diet, all kinds of things. Those examples all involve learning what does NOT work for me! :lol: In experimenting with WAPF and Nourishing Traditions, I learned that soaking, sprouting, or fermenting grains does not make them any more edible for me personally. It works for a lot of people, but not for me. I simply have to avoid grains. Period. Okay, good to know! I also learned that fermenting vegetables and eating high-quality yogurt really helps my digestion. Great! I experimented with Paleo and when I ended the experiment and added some foods back, I learned much to my delight that I tolerate dairy very well. Well, I'm rambling now but you get the idea.

 

Point is, yes human beings are omnivores, but no that does not mean that everyone can eat every food and be well and healthy. Different people having varying degrees of tolerance for foods like grains, legumes, and dairy because those are all relatively recent additions to our diets. And that's why Paleo can be so beneficial - experiment and you may find that the joint pain you've been suffering from for years goes away when you give up wheat, or that your chronic allergies disappear when you give up dairy, or whatever. Or you may find that you tolerate those foods quite well, and that's great news! (I just don't like it when people think that because they tolerate those foods well, then everyone else is just imagining their problems with these foods. But that's another topic.) Find what works for you, and do it.

[Greta]

I hear ya, Wendy! :laugh:

[Alte Veste Academy]

One of the things I do like about whole30 is it starts as an elimination. After the 30 days, you see a big difference. Maybe you give a nibble of rice a try and see how it treats you. Or dairy. Some people won't feel like poo and will decide to reintroduce that in limited amounts. Some people will and then know their body needs to avoid it. For me, I had no idea that the foods I was eating were apparently a major contributor to feeling like crap in several ways. I feel like I was poisoned! And the few times I've gone off the path, I regretted it.

 

This is me. This is the benefit of eliminating foods by doing something like the Whole30. You can say, "I've always loved ____. Why are they no good?" But all the researching and chatter don't matter. It only matters how that food makes you feel and you won't know that unless you quit and then reintroduce. I mean, if you have aches and pains in your joints, tummy, wherever...if you have, as I did, year-long "seasonal" allergies and are sick to death of getting several sinus infections a year and taking medicine every single day that doesn't even help you avoid it...if you just generally are feeling blechy and don't know why and don't think you're really old enough to feel so blechy every day so start wondering why...

 

Anyway, forget the reading. Cut your diet back to the most basic, least allergenic and just see what it tells you. Then, as Martha says, reintroduce foods one at a time. Your body will do your research for you. ;)

 

But if you are feeling perfectly fine? Just enjoy your beans. :D

 

You know what...don't. Seriously. I stopped going crazy over this stuff. I do tend towards lower carb because it helps with my low blood sugar crash problem. Plus I happen to like low carb foods more than high carb foods. But I no longer go crazy over these details.

 

I agree with this. I'm glad I feel so much better because of the Whole30/(mostly)paleo eating. But if I could go back in time, I kind of wish I could unknow a lot of the details I know. Too much knowledge. Want eating to be easy again. :( My grocery budget is expanding faster than the universe (I think that's a lot based on my cursory knowledge of astrophysics... :tongue_smilie:). Jane, if you like beans, eat beans. If, however, you generally feel worn and tired, achy, whatever and think maybe it's diet related, take them out of your diet for a while and then reintroduce them. It really is that easy. As you describe your diet here (I think it's you anyway), I can't imagine beans being a huge problem for you. But reading research won't tell you.