tex-mex Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Hey Fellow Hivers, Got a bit of a situation for you all. Curious what y'all think... we have a young friend whose wife announced this weekend she is leaving him. We've stayed neutral over the last 6 months and counseled both kiddos (they're 25 and this is their 4th year of marriage) since Thanksgiving. He wants to give the relationship one more try and she is feeling like she needs her freedom. Here is where we need some wisdom: - The young wife is demanding the soon-to-be-ex that he pay 1/2 of her rent for a NEW rental. He makes more $$ than she does. - They have tenetively agreed on custody of their 2 year old child 50/50 -- without having gone to Family Court here in TX. (Note that TX there is no such thing as legal separation...) But the young man is nervous about agreeing to co-sign and pay for his soon-to-be ex-wife's rent... as he will have to live elsewhere. She is making it sound like he HAS to do this for the sake of his daughter. We advised the young man to not co-sign or agree to this idea. - This young man now has to look for rental housing elsewhere and has found a studio like (cheap) apartment -- but he asked us today if the Family Court Judge would look down on his choice of rental & location and he would end up losing custody of his child. He is wondering if he has to choose a nice (i.e. more expensive) rental despite his income being not so great. Does Family Court have a bias against low-income housing? These kids live in a nice (suburb of DFW) college town... not in the inner city by any means. (?????) Thanks in Advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 There will not be bias against inexpensive housing. The courts here are somewhat progressive in that they want to maximize the time/influence and PARENTING of both parents. It takes some egregious circumstances to change that. The court will honor an agreed on parenting plan, or the default (template) order will be used. Pay her rent? Um. No. Not half. Not any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingersmom Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I wouldn't sign anything and there is absolutely no reason for him to pay a penny towards her rent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 Thanks Joanne! The young man loves her -- but she just does not love him. No extramarital affairs, no abuse, and she just wants to walk away. Would appreciate any more advice for the young man regarding Family Court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Thanks Joanne! The young man loves her -- but she just does not love him. No extramarital affairs, no abuse, and she just wants to walk away. Would appreciate any more advice for the young man regarding Family Court. Tell him not to worry. The court will accept a parenting plan if they come up with one. If it gets nasty, that's a different story. He needs an attorney regardless. Please don't try to do this without one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Thanks Joanne! The young man loves her -- but she just does not love him. No extramarital affairs, no abuse, and she just wants to walk away. Would appreciate any more advice for the young man regarding Family Court. We knew a much younger couple in a similar situation (no kids). She wanted him to pay for her to have braves and lipo. Um, no. We had a mom show up at a homeschool park day once with preschoolers. she was planning to "homeschool" because she wanted to leave her dh and make him support her. If you leave your husband, then he no longer needs to support you. Work it out with him or figure out how to support yourself. Are there extenuating circumstances when a husband is expected to help his wife (or vice versa) during the divorce? Yes, but they are not necessarily the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 - The young wife is demanding the soon-to-be-ex that he pay 1/2 of her rent for a NEW rental. This young man is currently working as an asst. manager of a small coffee shop while the young lady works as an Aide in a Preschool. He makes more $$ than she does. He will owe her some amount of child support. She can use it for rent if she wants to. He will not be permitted to pay her nothing, and should not expect to pay her nothing. He should expect to pay her a good chunk of money, monthly, for the remainder of their child's minority. It's agreeing on the amount that can be challenging, and courts can be a help. Some areas even have completely transparent methods of calculation that you can run yourself. lthough, I'd lean towards saying that 'about half of the cost of an average apartment' is within a normal range of expectation. - They have tenetively agreed on custody of their 2 year old child 50/50 -- without having gone to Family Court here in TX. (Note that TX there is no such thing as legal separation...) But the young man is nervous about agreeing to co-sign and pay for his soon-to-be ex-wife's rent... as he will have to live elsewhere. She is making it sound like he HAS to do this for the sake of his daughter. We advised the young man to not co-sign or agree to this idea. 50/50 custody agreements can work, but they are challenging especially once school begins -- they only really work if both parents make an effort to live within the same range of the same schools. A 50/50 arrangement can lower his financial obligation, but it will not lower it to nothing. It is really hard for people in the situation to be impartial -- I don't know why they want to avoid court? - This young man now has to look for rental housing elsewhere and has found a studio like (cheap) apartment -- but he asked us today if the Family Court Judge would look down on his choice of rental & location and he would end up losing custody of his child. He is wondering if he has to choose a nice (i.e. more expensive) rental despite his income being not so great. Does Family Court have a bias against low-income housing? These kids live in a nice (suburb of Dallas) college town... not in the inner city by any means. (?????) Court will look at the actual conditions of the apartment -- specifically, the child needs a bedroom. Getting an apartment without a bedroom that will be the child's own will be a no-overnight situation by the courts in most jurisdictions... although it might be OK for a 'visitation' sort of arrangement... perhaps depending on the gender of the child?... but definitely not for a 50/50 arrangement. This place is expected to be the child's home. It should meet that standard. It should definitely be in the same school zone as the mother's home. He will not "loose custody" -- it's hard to loose all rights if you are a decent human being.... but he may well fall short of getting 50% because it's also hard for a dad to prove he is ready and able to provide full time nurture to a child for 50% of the time all the time. Chances are he will need to arrange at least some daycare on his days anyways (depending on his work schedule) and courts will rarely grant custodial time to "Parent A" to spend a chunk of a day in daycare or with a care-giver if "Parent B" would be doing direct care and wants that time. Since they both work, probably that would apply to either side, so it's worth thinking through. It's also best to minimize the number of house-to-house transitions in their custody plan. Switching every day or two is harder on a small child that switching on a weekly, half-weekly or even up to biweekly basis. It's the transitions that are hard at the young ages -- the total time-per-parent isn't something that registers quite so strongly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Also, if he wants to envision this (as a godly man) as a temporary situation, a marital setback from which he would ideally like to re-win her heart and re-build their relationship -- I'd advise generosity, flexibility, respect and good boundaries. Generosity with money and parenting time might go a long ways to convince her of his goodwill towards her and his general reliability and resolution to treat her with every kindness -- in spite of her own choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 He will not "loose custody" -- it's hard to loose all rights if you are a decent human being.... but he may well fall short of getting 50% because it's also hard for a dad to prove he is ready and able to provide full time nurture to a child for 50% of the time all the time. Chances are he will need to arrange at least some daycare on his days anyways (depending on his work schedule) and courts will rarely grant custodial time to "Parent A" to spend a chunk of a day in daycare or with a care-giver if "Parent B" would be doing direct care and wants that time. Since they both work, probably that would apply to either side, so it's worth thinking through. I have not found this to be true at all. Not personally, and not with my clients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Well, Canada *is* pretty far away from Texas -- in more ways than one. I'm just sharing how it is here. Probably the most accurate info will come from people who have experience within the state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Also, if he wants to envision this (as a godly man) as a temporary situation, a marital setback from which he would ideally like to re-win her heart and re-build their relationship -- I'd advise generosity, flexibility, respect and good boundaries. Generosity with money and parenting time might go a long ways to convince her of his goodwill towards her and his general reliability and resolution to treat her with every kindness -- in spite of her own choices. I don't think paying her rent is good boundary setting. It creates a bad precedent. They are young and both working. Generally in 50-50 custody cases here, the higher earning spouse pays the lower earning spouse some child support. Gender has nothing to do with it in my state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 My advice is to quickly, loudly, and repeatedly say, "You need an attorney. Now." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 I live in TX. There is no alimony here. The best soon to be ex can have is child support. The guy needs a lawyer immediately to protect his and child's rights and so he knows his and child's rights. Really??? :huh: Wow. And yes, I agree... our friend needs to see a lawyer ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I agree with the pp, there needs to be a bedroom for the child. I also agree that it's crazy to get this legal advice from a chat forum. The kid needs a lawyer. I feel bad for him but he needs to protect himself. He is looking at paying child support and being in a very close logistical relationship with this woman, who will likely remarry, until he is in his 40s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 He needs a consult with an attorney. He doesn't need to hire an attorney, but a few hundred dollar's worth of legal advice would help him determine whether what he is considering for alimony, child support and division of property is reasonable. In general, I would advice against deals like paying a percentage of rent. Rather, he might want to determine a fair dollar amount for child support and alimony (the latter which would be little or nothing) and pay her that. She can use it to pay her own rent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 The unfortunate thing in these circumstances is that people who cannot afford attorneys think that by being reasonable they can avoid court. The young man does need to visit a GOOD attorney and get a reasonable idea of what child support he will be paying and pay it, but he should not sign up on his ex's lease or any of her other bills. IME, there may be no adultery, but she has someone she want to see when they are separated. He will get angry when he is paying for their love nest. OR, the person she wants to see has not interest in her and when she realizes this she will be ugly when he moves on without her. She is probably expecting him to just be there for her when she wants him. That is not realistic and will turn into a court situation so he needs to have consulted with a GOOD attorney (you do not save any money be seeing a cheap lawyer, you do not) for when things go even farther south. Which they will. These people are young and have a big learning curve ahead of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Agree 100% with posters who said young man needs an attorney. PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE THE FOLLOWING. Just for comparison purposes -- I know someone in TX whose wife left. She left, he stayed in the house with multiple children. After divorce, he ended up with kids most of the time and with house. Even though wife had no income at time of divorce, she was made responsible for small amount of child support. It's not an exact parallel, of course, but the young man should realize that he has rights too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 And just to throw in another wrinkle. Just because things are mutually agreed upon now, doesn't mean good feelings will always be there. For me, things got very difficult when my ex remarried and that woman interfered with our happy arrangement. It was a nightmare. He needs to protect himself and get everything in writing. Do what is best for the child, follow the standard requirements for custody. Since there is no alimony in TX, he should not be agreeing to paying her rent. She could get a boyfriend who may move in with her and he'll be supporting the two of them. I'd find out the state's recommendation for child support and not offer more than that. He'll need money to support himself and his child. It doesn't seem fair, but divorce isn't easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I was divorced in Texas and had a 50/50 child custody arrangement. This is with my almost 18 year old. I don't believe that low income apartments are an issue. I would get a two bedroom apartment. My ex and I went through mediation while separated, prior to our divorce. Mediation (once the papers are signed) is legally binding. We found it very helpful. If the situation can remain amicable, the parents can work out any arrangement they like in mediation and it will typically be honored by the court, which is exactly what happened in my case. Child support for either party is not a given if mediation is used. My ex and I worked out a minimal child support arrangement in spite of the fact that we had shared custody. Our situation worked out pretty well for the better part of the past 16 years. We did not live in the same school district, but we chose for our dd to attend a private school. She began in kindy and just graduated from the same private school. He should not agree to pay for any of her rent. If she wants out, she pays. Period. I do highly recommend mediation, though. It is important to keep in mind that mediation is not what is "fair or equitable". It is solely about what people can agree on. Mediators are often attorneys. I hired our mediator to be my attorney after the mediation was concluded. Prior to the mediation, I did consult an attorney to ask some basic questions in order to have information to make decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 A lawyer is essential when children are involved. Yes, it will cost money; however, it will save on enormous legal costs potential for the future if the parents come to war about the child (including child support). Pray that the young man agree to find a recommended family lawyer. He must not promise, either verbally or in writing, to anything that has not been discussed and agreed upon through consulting a lawyer. They need all manner of issues hammered out, including how far away one parent can move (in-state, out-of-state, out-of-country). Down the pike, there will be issues regarding what kind of education the child will receive. You mention a college town (Denton?), so I'm wondering whether he is a student. If so, a judge ought not to penalize him for needing affordable housing. I should think that what matters more is his lifestyle. (no immediate move-in of six girlfriends, or some other such outlandish situation) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 perhaps he is equating getting a lawyer with going to court and fighting. he might be more open to it if he approaches it as getting the legal advice from someone who is qualified and not emotionally invested, that he can use himself in negotiations or mediation. he could also have the lawyer read whatever they come up with before he signs to make sure there isn't anything disastrous which he has missed or which they have forgotten to address. having a bedroom for the child, for example, may matter with some judges as they might see it as a sign of care and concern for the child. the child might feel the same way! (that has been my experience with some judges in some places some of the time. re boundaries: one of the things his soon to be x-wife needs to understand is that part of a divorce means he is no longer responsible for her financially. (for the child/children, yes, but not for her. and that may well even out or close to it if its 50/50. if he doesn't want her to leave, then he shouldn't help her leave above and beyond the care of his child, kwim? she is employed, at a job of her choosing, so her income is her call to a certain extent.) @bolt.... in ontario, canada, where i was divorced, the amount of money a spouse gave to another during the initial separation but before an agreement was factored in to deciding how much should continue. ditto for the amount of time with the children. best to start off as you mean to carry on. is there any chance he can stay in the house short-term? that would help the child with the transition. please, please help him choose to see a lawyer, if only for a one hour consult. (two or three times would be better, but one is a good start). hth, ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 i forgot - separating out money and credit cards NOW, before anyone runs amok is important. she will have her income, he will have his. he will have his bank account, she will have hers. sorting out how the mortgage gets paid could be interesting... he really does need to see a lawyer at least once, and you (and the hive thru this message) can contribute areas he should ask about before he goes. maybe your dh can go with to listen, record answers, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I definitely agree with getting a lawyer and making some sort of financial separation now. I have joint custody of my 19 year old. Because we were both working, with nearly the same salary, and had 50/50 joint custody neither of us ever paid child support. We had a separate clause about splitting the cost for her dance, since that was a considerable expense and something that was important to her. We did not live in the same school district. I agreed to have her continue in the school she attended when we divorced and when I lived out of the district, I drove her to school every day during my weeks. In high school she switched to my district (much better school) and he had to drive her during his weeks. At one point in time, we rented a one bedroom house. I don't know if it made a difference that her and I were the same gender or if it could have been a problem if he wanted to make it one. If she is already making demands (paying 1/2 her rent) I would not treat this as an amicable situation since she might get quite nasty if she doesn't get what she wants. My biggest mistake in my divorce was trying to be nice because I felt guilty. Even if they child is very young, I would have things spelled out clearly. We are fighting about college 11 years after our divorce because some things were left vague. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Spending money on a lawyer now will likely save the young massive amounts of money and massive amounts of aggravation in the future. The cost of a decent attorney may seem like a lot, but it can really be a very small price compared to what can happen, especially with someone who thinks she entitled to have her rent paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbeym Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Texas does have alimony and legal separation, but they both have to be court approved and are usually granted only in extenuating circumstances. He needs to get a good attorney, someone he can at least meet with who can tell him what to do or not do, and that can serve as a mediator between him and the ex-wife. He should not, under any circumstances, agree to pay any of her expenses. If he has concerns about the child's welfare while with mom, he can buy things online for the child and have it shipped directly to mom's new residence. Texas child support for only 1 child is usually about 20% for a non-custodial parent. I think it's somewhere in the 10-15% range for true 50/50 agreements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuirkyKapers Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 And just to throw in another wrinkle. Just because things are mutually agreed upon now, doesn't mean good feelings will always be there. For me, things got very difficult when my ex remarried and that woman interfered with our happy arrangement. It was a nightmare. He needs to protect himself and get everything in writing. Do what is best for the child, follow the standard requirements for custody. Since there is no alimony in TX, he should not be agreeing to paying her rent. She could get a boyfriend who may move in with her and he'll be supporting the two of them. I'd find out the state's recommendation for child support and not offer more than that. He'll need money to support himself and his child. It doesn't seem fair, but divorce isn't easy. :iagree: My friend thought things could be worked out amiably. They had talked, but after a few months, tide turned. I agree with getting a lawyer now. What someone says now can change down the road especially if a new person enters the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I am acquainted with a good family law guy in the Fort worth area. He is a nice guy. PM me if you want his phone number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Thank you everyone for the words of wisdom. I am having my husband read all of your replies and it has been very reassuring for him to see that you all concur with what he advised to our young friend. It just hurts my heart to see so much pain with this situation. I do appreciate your advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I would strongly encourage him to 1) seek legal counsel 2) fight for his child to have a father in her life as much as possible 3) pay her NOTHING toward her quest to blow up her child's FOO He probably will be legally obligated to pay her some cs since he makes more. But her entitlement attitude that he should pay half her rent for the good of their child.....even if it means he has to live in a studio.....so she doesn't care about the child's well being when child is with the dad? Yeah, more and more of these type of women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I don't think there is anything ethically wrong with a lower-income spouse beginning to talk about a 'ballpark' for child support payments at the beginning of a separation. The truth is that the lower-income ex-spouse *is* entitled to child support. What's the big deal about knowing that's the case? It's not an "entitlement attitude" if the "entitlement" in question is actually real and reasonable, and in divorce cases an actual legally binding obligation. Now, I don't know if 'half of the rent on an apartment' is a perfect way to target the 'ballpark' -- but it doesn't strike me as a bad starting point, given the other general factor given by someone in the know upthread was 10-15 percent of the greater-income ex-spouse's income. Since the average cost of housing is 30 to 40 percent of income, there is a rough mathematical correlation between 'half of the cost of rent' and '10 to 15 percent of income'. (Though I suppose net or gross would make a big difference in that calculation.) It's certainly not a perfect target, because real situation calculations can be complex -- but it's not a patently unreasonable amount. ((For more info on reasonable expectation amounts, try this... I just googled it... http://www.supportstudies.com/TexasChildSupportCalculator.aspx )) I just don't see how her ideas about child support payments make her "one of those type of women." As nearly as we can tell the details of this situation if she is one, then "those type of women" are ones that end marriages that they find intolerable and begin reasonable discussions about child support before involving lawyers... which seems like a pretty normal "type of woman" to me. This young man doesn't seem to be facing a fight to be in his child's life (at present) since the proposal on the table is 50/50 parenting time... and while her proposed level of child support bears investigation, it's not a financial obligation he will be able to avoid, at whatever levels are normally assigned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I don't think there is anything ethically wrong with a lower-income spouse beginning to talk about a 'ballpark' for child support payments at the beginning of a separation. The truth is that the lower-income ex-spouse *is* entitled to child support. What's the big deal about knowing that's the case? It's not an "entitlement attitude" if the "entitlement" in question is actually real and reasonable, and in divorce cases an actual legally binding obligation. Now, I don't know if 'half of the rent on an apartment' is a perfect way to target the 'ballpark' -- but it doesn't strike me as a bad starting point, given the other general factor given by someone in the know upthread was 10-15 percent of the greater-income ex-spouse's income. Since the average cost of housing is 30 to 40 percent of income, there is a rough mathematical correlation between 'half of the cost of rent' and '10 to 15 percent of income'. (Though I suppose net or gross would make a big difference in that calculation.) It's certainly not a perfect target, because real situation calculations can be complex -- but it's not a patently unreasonable amount. ((For more info on reasonable expectation amounts, try this... I just googled it... http://www.supportstudies.com/TexasChildSupportCalculator.aspx )) I just don't see how her ideas about child support payments make her "one of those type of women." As nearly as we can tell the details of this situation if she is one, then "those type of women" are ones that end marriages that they find intolerable and begin reasonable discussions about child support before involving lawyers... which seems like a pretty normal "type of woman" to me. This young man doesn't seem to be facing a fight to be in his child's life (at present) since the proposal on the table is 50/50 parenting time... and while her proposed level of child support bears investigation, it's not a financial obligation he will be able to avoid, at whatever levels are normally assigned. I didn't read that it was a discussion of child support, but rather a DEMAND that he pay half of her rent. ( and did I read correctly that she wants him to co sign the lease?) Her rent is her problem. She can pay it with the cs that she will probably get. He is 25 years old...doubtful he is making a ton of money. If paying half her rent will put him in a studio apartment then I see that as unequal and unfair. I have seen many men try to play nice with women like this and it comes back to bite them. He can be respectful while standing up for his rights as a father and as a human. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Thanks Joanne! The young man loves her -- but she just does not love him. No extramarital affairs, no abuse, and she just wants to walk away. Would appreciate any more advice for the young man regarding Family Court. I very much doubt there is no one else. Most women with two year olds don't leave good men unless there is another man waiting in the wings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 "Paying her NOTHING" is not one of his rights as a father and a human. If he'd rather not accept her rent-based proposal for child support amount, perhaps he should do some calculations and let her know what she can count on him for on a monthly basis from his own perspective. Many people consider assertive women "demanding" -- she has made a proposal regarding a benchmark for future financial support. Perhaps she has even said what she will or won't do if he fails to agree. If he agrees to her terms, that means he accepts her proposal. If he refuses her terms, he can make a counter-proposal. Her rent is her problem only if he pays her a reasonable amount of support money -- based on state guidelines or mutual agreement -- consistently and reliably. Amounts are negotiable, but if he is not making reasonable efforts, then he is intentionally impoverishing her and their child and is definitely accountable for that choice. I didn't read anything about signing the lease, but if the lease is at issue, a good counter proposal might be, "The amount is fine, but I will give it to you personally, rather than being obligated on the lease." --- That's easy. If 'half of her rent' exceeds 15% of his monthly net income, under a 50/50 arrangement I'd tend to agree that it would be 'unequal and unfair'. Since I don't have any reason to know what he does with the other 85% of his income, nor do I have any idea of housing costs or wages in that area... I just don't know if it's 'unequal and unfair' or not. I don't think anyone knows. Which is why I object to the idea that the estranged wife in this situation is being characterized as a money-grubbing home wrecker, throwing away a perfectly good husband on a whim, while trying to keep her paws on his money... just because she asked for what MAY WELL BE a perfectly reasonable or even low-ball amount of financial support at the beginning of this separation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Most women with two year olds don't leave good men unless there is another man waiting in the wings. Unless, of course, this particular good man is not actually that good at being husbandly... or perhaps he is not even actually that good of a man. Marriages become intolerable for a variety of reasons, yet here we are randomly assuming she's interested in another man? What about trying to see the good in people? If she had another man, I expect she wouldn't be quite so concerned about how costly it is going to be for her to be a single parent in an apartment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 :iagree: He needs to get an attorney asap... :iagree: They both need an attorney imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 "Paying her NOTHING" is not one of his rights as a father and a human. If he'd rather not accept her rent-based proposal for child support amount, perhaps he should do some calculations and let her know what she can count on him for on a monthly basis from his own perspective. Many people consider assertive women "demanding" -- she has made a proposal regarding a benchmark for future financial support. Perhaps she has even said what she will or won't do if he fails to agree. If he agrees to her terms, that means he accepts her proposal. If he refuses her terms, he can make a counter-proposal. Her rent is her problem only if he pays her a reasonable amount of support money -- based on state guidelines or mutual agreement -- consistently and reliably. Amounts are negotiable, but if he is not making reasonable efforts, then he is intentionally impoverishing her and their child and is definitely accountable for that choice. I didn't read anything about signing the lease, but if the lease is at issue, a good counter proposal might be, "The amount is fine, but I will give it to you personally, rather than being obligated on the lease." --- That's easy. If 'half of her rent' exceeds 15% of his monthly net income, under a 50/50 arrangement I'd tend to agree that it would be 'unequal and unfair'. Since I don't have any reason to know what he does with the other 85% of his income, nor do I have any idea of housing costs or wages in that area... I just don't know if it's 'unequal and unfair' or not. I don't think anyone knows. Which is why I object to the idea that the estranged wife in this situation is being characterized as a money-grubbing home wrecker, throwing away a perfectly good husband on a whim, while trying to keep her paws on his money... just because she asked for what MAY WELL BE a perfectly reasonable or even low-ball amount of financial support at the beginning of this separation. Did I say anything about 'paying her nothing'. No. I said he will probably be obligated to pay her some cs. All we know is what the OP said about this couple. Based upon that description of both of them I certainly would characterize her as selfish and entitled. Not being in love with the father of your child is not a good enough reason to break up a family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Yes. Just upthread at 8:59 you post reads: "Pay her NOTHING towards her quest to blow up her child's FOO." It was point 3. If he "will" be obligated to pay cs, it is because that is the right and proper thing to do. He doesn't need to wait until a court makes him do the right thing. He is free to start now. In my opinion he should. And I would find being in a lifelong sexual and cohabitation and co-parrnting relationship with someone I didn't love to be very nearly intolerable. I would tend to be one who tries, even in that situation... But the turmoil would be intense. I can ser how it could become intollerable. The man would have to be a saint about it, in spite of my non-love, if there was going to be any chance of staying sane, year after year, in a situation like that. And, come to think of it, what kind if 'saint' would even WANT an ongoing sexual relationship with an unwilling woman who didn't love him? Unless you are suggesting sexless marriage? Or 'open' marriage??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Yes. Just upthread at 8:59 you post reads: "Pay her NOTHING towards her quest to blow up her child's FOO." It was point 3. If he "will" be obligated to pay cs, it is because that is the right and proper thing to do. He doesn't need to wait until a court makes him do the right thing. He is free to start now. In my opinion he should. And I would find being in a lifelong sexual and cohabitation and co-parrnting relationship with someone I didn't love to be very nearly intolerable. I would tend to be one who tries, even in that situation... But the turmoil would be intense. I can ser how it could become intollerable. The man would have to be a saint about it, in spite of my non-love, if there was going to be any chance of staying sane, year after year, in a situation like that. And, come to think of it, what kind if 'saint' would even WANT an ongoing sexual relationship with an unwilling woman who didn't love him? Unless you are suggesting sexless marriage? Or 'open' marriage??? I stand corrected.....I did say that. To clarify, pay her what he is legally obligated to. Not half her rent and not consigning. Love is an action word. People love and stop loving and thus can begin again. She isn't old enough to have given it enough time. He should not be guilted into making things easier on her bailing on such a young marriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 She isn't old enough to have given it enough time. He should not be guilted into making things easier on her bailing on such a young marriage. :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Unless you are suggesting sexless marriage? Or 'open' marriage??? I'm guessing she doesn't believe in divorce. This particular topic has been hot in the past. I'm not surprised it popped up in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 How can anyone "not believe in divorce"? It's not like its a debatable. Clearly people can and do get divorced. Perhaps you mean that there are people here who pre-judge, sight-unseen, all divorcing people to be inherently in the wrong? Is it that kind of "disbelief" you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 There are so many ins-and-outs to this, an attorney needs to be involved. They know the local norms and what goes and what doesn't. Locally where I am, the courts tend to assume that the ex-spouses are self-supporting unless there is some disability. It is *very* rare for there to be any spousal support (which includes rent) in the package. Sometimes if a stay-at-home parent is involved, they'll specify a monthly amount for a year or so to get the person on their feet. That is uncommon though. A friend of mine was the primary breadwinner while her ex ran a home business. When they divorced, the business was in the process of being liquidated, so the ex had no job prospects. And the judge specified no spousal support for him because he was a healthy male capable of getting a job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 A person is free to spend child support on rent, aren't they? Why does "rent" seem to mean "spousal support" rather than "child support" in this thread? Isn't the need for a home considered one if the child's needs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 I'm not sure how and why this topic turned. In anycase, the OP read, to me, that the sbtxw expected a lease co-signer and that he'd pay half, distinct from child support. Speculation about where she may be coming from is not going to glean any useful info. Marriages are intensely and inherently private. Though, given the ages of the persons involved, including the child, I'd be curious about how they navigated the transition to parenthood and also if she had PPD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 I'm guessing she doesn't believe in divorce. This particular topic has been hot in the past. I'm not surprised it popped up in this thread. 'Believe' in divorce? I AM divorced and I married a divorced man and I am child of divorce. So I certainly know it exists. If you are saying I think there is no acceptable reason for divorce that would be incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 How can anyone "not believe in divorce"? It's not like its a debatable. Clearly people can and do get divorced. Perhaps you mean that there are people here who pre-judge, sight-unseen, all divorcing people to be inherently in the wrong? Is it that kind of "disbelief" you mean? I don't know what Night Elf was trying to say but clearly none of us know this couple. All we know is what the OP said ( and I have no reason to believe she would lie). She said she and her husband have been counseling this young couple for 6 months. There was no abuse on the husbands part and that the wife just 'didn't love him'. Obviously he could actually be a very bad man and the wife is lying but since she has already agreed to give him 50% parenting time with their two year old I doubt that is true. And while what Joanne says is true, that marriage is complicated and private, the world is full of people who have done what this young wife is doing and later very much regret it. As far as his obligations I think he should seek legal counsel and pay her only what he is obligated so that he will have the funds to properly care for his dd on his time. If she wants to pay half her rent with that amount that is her business. I don't believe he should risk anything to make life easier on her now...such as signing her lease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 A person is free to spend child support on rent, aren't they? Why does "rent" seem to mean "spousal support" rather than "child support" in this thread? Isn't the need for a home considered one if the child's needs? Yes a home is a need but the mother is responsible for providing that home for the child on her time and the father is responsible for providing that home on his time. Cs is calculated by the state and has nothing to do with the cost of her rent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 'Believe' in divorce? I AM divorced and I married a divorced man and I am child of divorce. So I certainly know it exists. If you are saying I think there is no acceptable reason for divorce that would be incorrect. Sorry, I must have confused you with someone else. Maybe it was someone else with a name that started with an S. Whoever that was, I remember that the person said there were very few extenuating circumstances in which a couple should divorce. Not against all divorce, but a loveless marriage would not be an extenuating circumstance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Oh dear, how off topic to go into the ins and outs of someone's marriage whom we do not even know. The bottom lines are this: The young man needs legal counsel. He should not set a precedent at this point by cosigning the young woman's lease or paying half of her rent. If he was the one who wanted out of the marriage, then that might be different. But it is not. In Texas, in my own personal experience, everything is somewhat up in the air and subject to change during a separation until either mediation, which is legally, and/or a divorce hearing. I have watched more than one divorcing person, out of guilt, spite, pain or fear, agree to things that were not in their long-term best interest. Whatever the outcome of this situation, it would be a shame for this young man to commit himself to something out of guilt or ignorance. I think he is very fortunate to have the OP and her dh for help and counsel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbeym Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Oh dear, how off topic to go into the ins and outs of someone's marriage whom we do not even know. The bottom lines are this: The young man needs legal counsel. He should not set a precedent at this point by cosigning the young woman's lease or paying half of her rent. If he was the one who wanted out of the marriage, then that might be different. But it is not. In Texas, in my own personal experience, everything is somewhat up in the air and subject to change during a separation until either mediation, which is legally, and/or a divorce hearing. I have watched more than one divorcing person, out of guilt, spite, pain or fear, agree to things that were not in their long-term best interest. Whatever the outcome of this situation, it would be a shame for this young man to commit himself to something out of guilt or ignorance. I think he is very fortunate to have the OP and her dh for help and counsel. Very well stated, Texasmama. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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