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#1 kiwik

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:20 AM

I have always been inclined to interpret things is a positive light - assume misunderstanding or forgetfulness.

But today I received information from the public health nurse who got it from the school social worker who discussed it from the teacher. And quite frankly the teacher did not tell the truth. In which case has the other feedback I have got from him also lies?

I just can't see any reason for this particular lie. He is claiming none of my sons soiling accidents occur during class (he has a medical problem)and that it must happen as soon as school finishes. That is not what my son says (or what the physical evidence suggests). My son also says he is sometimes not allowed to go to the toilet which the teacher says his untrue. I had put it down to my son being a bit cautious about the rules (after checking with parents who volunteer in the classroom) but now I wonder.

Am I being paranoid do you think?

#2 jennynd

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:48 AM

DS last year teacher also lie. So, just because they are teachers doesn't mean they are all that honest. I will start to have your DS carry recording device

#3 54879525

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:58 AM

Yeah teachers don't possess an honesty chip. I think they can lie.

It may not be a lie. It may be that your son interpreted something she said incorrectly. For example, she may have a policy of not using the bathroom at certain times, but she would make an exception for him knowing his issues. Kids can be very black and white like that.

#4 MBM

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:20 AM

I have always been inclined to interpret things is a positive light - assume misunderstanding or forgetfulness.

But today I received information from the public health nurse who got it from the school social worker who discussed it from the teacher. And quite frankly the teacher did not tell the truth. In which case has the other feedback I have got from him also lies?

I just can't see any reason for this particular lie. He is claiming none of my sons soiling accidents occur during class (he has a medical problem)and that it must happen as soon as school finishes. That is not what my son says (or what the physical evidence suggests). My son also says he is sometimes not allowed to go to the toilet which the teacher says his untrue. I had put it down to my son being a bit cautious about the rules (after checking with parents who volunteer in the classroom) but now I wonder.

Am I being paranoid do you think?


Are you dealing with encopresis? One of my kids had that. IME, most people don't understand how difficult it is to treat unless they've dealt with it firsthand. We got the best information from other parents. Our pediatrician and specialist did not truly understand how to treat it.

If you are dealing with encopresis, I would guess you are dealing with a social worker and nurse who do not understand that the accidents can occur spontaneously especially after meals or activity like gym or recess. I would also guess that your son might not get much sensation to go, or is too involved in an activity and disregards the feeling to go, or he is afraid of the bathroom. If you are not dealing with this, disregard!

Good luck.

#5 swellmomma

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:48 AM

The fact that the teacher is saying none of the accidents occur during class time sounds like denial to me, he is trying to cover his arse for not dealing with it like he should. I can understand the issue of your son not using the washroom thinking he couldn't being a misunderstanding. But the teacher outright saying it never happens in his class despite having evidence that it does is a lie. Especially since he brought this up to the social worker, kwim.

We dealt with a lieing teacher/principal once. Back when oldest was 5 he went to ps kindergarten. They had a sub that never read the file the teacher left about the kids with extra issues, including that my son was a runner. He left out the back door(they were in a portable classroom), in January with no coat, his indoor shoes etc (Jan in Alberta is generally between -20C and -30C) and no one noticed. A neighbor to the school saw him, warmed him up, and brought him back to the school after watching to see if anyone would come out looking for him. Anyway, no one went looking, no one noticed his absense. Sub lied to cover her butt, principal lied repeatedly and changed the story a half dozen times trying to make it just go away, neighbor that found him told me everything. Son homeschooled for rest of the school year, and started in a new school for gr 1, I could not trust anything they said nor could I trust them to keep him safe.

In the case of a teacher saying something never happens in their class and such, I would arrange a meeting between yourself, the teacher, the principal, and if needed the nurse and social worker and get to the bottom of it. How does this teacher know 100% it never happens in his class? Clarify the bathroom usage rules. Clarify whatever it is your son needs to be successful? Why was the teacher talking about this with the social worker to begin with? Was the SW asking the teacher for an update,or did the teacher bring this up to the SW for some other reason? What are the rules about privacy and teachers gossiping about students to each other? I generally try to see both sides and assume that issues are likely due to misunderstanding not nepharious reasons but this situation has my guard up. Now whether that is because I have a son with bowel issues and have dealt with idiots who know nothing about it (mainly daycare workers when he was smaller), or not I don't know. But I have a warning bell going off that something is not right with this situation.
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#6 SKL

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:08 AM

I'm so sorry. I'm jaded; I have no trouble believing the teacher is lying. How very sad for your son. :(
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#7 kiwik

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:10 PM

Yeah it is encopresis. He is at the stage where it is mostly ok but stress or a change in diet cause bad weeks. This makes people even less inclined to believe it is not laziness or deliberate misbehavoir. The teacher basically believes I am enabling him and if I made it his problem peer pressure would sort it out. Unfortunately if one of the kids comments he keep quiet and hopes it will go away - I have suggested he waits five minutes then goes to check. The social worker went to talk to the teacher because the public health nurse requested it after I spoke with her - that is not a problem.

The teacher thinks I am the/a problem basically. He was very rude when I spoke to him about an IEP to try to get him some gifted extension. And to be honest he actually lied then too but he did backtrack a bit to provide himself an out. I am not sure I can deal with this guy for another 7 months.

#8 ashleysf

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:38 PM

He is lying (ask those same parent volunteers to keep an eye out for such things happening in the class).
In the meantime, how about getting a Doctor's note from your son's doctor, printing out some information about this condition and asking the teacher to put it on your son's file as a record that your son needs special consideration? No teacher can challenge a doctor's note if they want to keep their jobs. And discuss this issue with a copy of the doctor's note to back you up with the school principal.
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#9 MBM

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:04 PM

Yeah it is encopresis. He is at the stage where it is mostly ok but stress or a change in diet cause bad weeks. This makes people even less inclined to believe it is not laziness or deliberate misbehavoir. The teacher basically believes I am enabling him and if I made it his problem peer pressure would sort it out. Unfortunately if one of the kids comments he keep quiet and hopes it will go away - I have suggested he waits five minutes then goes to check. The social worker went to talk to the teacher because the public health nurse requested it after I spoke with her - that is not a problem.

The teacher thinks I am the/a problem basically. He was very rude when I spoke to him about an IEP to try to get him some gifted extension. And to be honest he actually lied then too but he did backtrack a bit to provide himself an out. I am not sure I can deal with this guy for another 7 months.


Ugh. Poor you. Not only do you have to keep your son on track, but you also have to deal with this teacher.

Peer pressure will make it worse and only shame your son. Your son might also just keep it in then. Kids with encopresis mix up their reflexes to go. They pinch their sphincter shut when they should be relaxing. It takes some time for them to completely unlearn this. Sorry this is so graphic! I know way too much about this topic.

I think your advice to encourage your son to go check is very good. If your son has an accident, could he change into a fresh pair of underwear and just bag up the dirty ones in a plastic bag and toss them in a garbage can in the bathroom? Maybe he could keep an emergency pair in his pocket along with a plastic bag. Is he old enough to tie up a plastic bag? Even a zip lock bag would work.

One suggestion that really helped us was to have our son do practice sits after eating breakfast, 5" before school, after school, after snacks, after dinner and before bedtime. No pressure to produce. My son eventually was going every evening or every morning before school so we were able to bypass the school altogether eventually.

You have this teacher for another 7 months? Awful. Your poor little guy. Is there any way you can switch to a more empathetic teacher?

#10 swellmomma

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:47 PM

Oh I would be livid. My son has encopresis too and so often I have come up against people that just don't get it. I would involve the principal. The teacher is endorsing bullying to cure a medical problem? I am sure the school has a bully no tolerance program, and this would be in complete contradiction to that mandate. It is time for a meeting between you, principal and teacher, making it very clear this is a medical disorder, no amount of shaming from peers will cure it, what it will do is show the kids that the teacher will endorse bullying of 1 child because of something they can not even control.
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#11 SKL

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:53 PM

My sister would say: "you want me to go slash his tires!?" How frustrating. I hope you find a resolution soon!
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#12 jdahlquist

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:25 PM

I have dealt with both--a child with encopresis and a teacher lying (about a different issue); both are difficult situations.

As far as the encopresis, it is difficult for most people who haven't experienced it to understand. We even had trouble with pediatricians, and even GI specialists, not understanding until we found a GI that specialized in encopresis issues. I would have school nurses and teachers who would tell me that they knew how to solve the problem--if only I gave my child prune juice, didn't let them eat gluten, etc. They thought they knew more than the MDs treating my child. I even had one teacher tell me that she could tell by looking at my child's eyes that he didn't really need to go to the bathroom--this is a child who had been through extensive testing and hospitalization and had some nerve/muscle coordination problems that made it impossible to detect with internal monitors when he needed to go to the bathroom! The GI doctors we have dealt with have said that it is common to have constant problems with schools regarding this issue. If you need to talk to a parent who has been through this, feel free to pm me.

A lying teacher was a difficult situation. When we tried to deal with it, the principal began covering up and life at school became miserable for our child. This is when we began considering homeschooling.
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#13 SKL

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:08 PM

I'm kind of glad you brought this up, though, because my daughter also has a lying teacher. I don't know the right words to say about that. Anger, frustration, sadness, even fear, because what else will they do and lie about, and how much will the school protect them? And powerlessness to change it. It stinks. However, I do not mean to compare my daughter's problems to your son's. I feel like your son is enduring child abuse when he's not allowed to go to the toilet. I only wish I had some useful advice.

#14 Uff Da!

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:25 AM

:grouphug:

#15 kwg

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:40 AM

How horrible! When I taught first grade one little boy had one accident in my class and I did not even know until the next day (i was working one on one with a child and did not see him raise his hand to ask permission). After that, his mom and I agreed he should just get up and go to the bathroom when he thought he needed to without bothering with the permission part. It never caused any problems. I still feel badly about it!
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#16 MBM

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:11 AM

I have dealt with both--a child with encopresis and a teacher lying (about a different issue); both are difficult situations.

As far as the encopresis, it is difficult for most people who haven't experienced it to understand. We even had trouble with pediatricians, and even GI specialists, not understanding until we found a GI that specialized in encopresis issues. I would have school nurses and teachers who would tell me that they knew how to solve the problem--if only I gave my child prune juice, didn't let them eat gluten, etc. They thought they knew more than the MDs treating my child. I even had one teacher tell me that she could tell by looking at my child's eyes that he didn't really need to go to the bathroom--this is a child who had been through extensive testing and hospitalization and had some nerve/muscle coordination problems that made it impossible to detect with internal monitors when he needed to go to the bathroom! The GI doctors we have dealt with have said that it is common to have constant problems with schools regarding this issue. If you need to talk to a parent who has been through this, feel free to pm me.

A lying teacher was a difficult situation. When we tried to deal with it, the principal began covering up and life at school became miserable for our child. This is when we began considering homeschooling.


I often wondered if some of these kids just don't *hear* the signal that they need to go. I used to belong to an encopresis support board and it seemed like some of the parents were dealing with a kid who just didn't get the feeling to go to the bathroom. How frustrating.

In our case, my youngest does not feel thirsty much. As a toddler, I noticed he was drinking very little during the day. We had to get him to drink water even though he didn't want it. Now that he's 15, he knows he has to drink a certain amount each day but he is rarely thirsty. I guess that's just how he's wired.

#17 Slipper

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:05 AM

Teachers can lie, unfortunately. However, if your son notices the accident AFTER class, the teacher (out of ignorance) may think it's happening after class. I'd give the benefit of the doubt ONE more time but make things perfectly clear so there is no room for misunderstanding.

Does he have a 504? 504 Plans are usually for medical conditions. This would make things crystal clear with everyone. Have your doctor/gastro send a note providing the problem and what needs to happen to make things easier for your son. Soiling accidents are humiliating for the child and humiliation makes the problem worse.

Suggestions for accommodations:

1. Child will arrange with teacher for a signal that will let the teacher know the child needs to use the bathroom at any point. (My daughter, by the way, used to say that she wasn't allowed to go - sometimes the teacher would ask her if she could wait five minutes until recess and my daughter would always agree, even if she couldn't. We asked the teacher to quit asking her that and she was happy to comply. Other times, the 'class rule' was to not allow potty breaks and the teacher was told to make sure she told my daughter that the rule didn't apply to her. )
2. If child notices that clothing is soiled, child is allowed to go straight to nurse/guidance counselor's office to retrieve spare clothing (left in advance by parent) and change. Soiled clothes will be kept in nurse's office and retrieved by parent at the end of the school day. (This allows the child to NOT have to explain to the teacher they had an 'accident').
3. Child will be allowed to keep a water bottle at their desk and drink throughout the day (this helps relieve constipation issues that are common with soiling).

Also, provide handouts for the teacher and request that he read them. If you are sitting at a table with the principal and other school members, he is far more likely to smile and agree than if you simply send to school one day.

Good luck :)

#18 kiwik

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:06 PM

Last year I had regular meetings with the head of the junior school, the teacher and the public health nurse - he had occasional accidents but he dealt with them. He carries an emergency bag which contains clothes, flushable wipes, Ziploc bags for dirty undies, larger bags for wet clothes etc. There was also teachers aide in another class who would come if the teacher asked (she was needed once). This year he is having frequent soiling of the kind you get when you are holding on and not really being aware of it - but I would expect the teacher to notice the smell.

All the parents I know who help say the kids signal and then go. My son says you have to wait until the teacher acknowledges your signal and that takes a while.

I just don't get good vibes from this teacher. Oh well it is the holidays now I will see what happens next. I wish I had some more concrete evidence to ask for a class change because a child has left from a class one of his friends is in that would be a lot better academic fit.

#19 Slipper

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:01 PM

My middle daughter had a 504 for Celiac Disease. It was written into her 504 that if she should try to ask permission, but if she needed to leave, she was able to leave immediately without waiting for the teacher. I stressed to her to not abuse it, but always leave if she needed to go immediately. It's a reasonable accommodation.

#20 kiwikate

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:07 PM

Given the situation and the fact there are still three terms of this year to go, if it were me I would be approaching the principal over these holidays and asking for a class change. I would take it from the perspective of a "fresh start" for your son which would allow him to set up a new system with a new teacher allowing him to deal with the issues of his medical condition. People request class changes all the time for far less important concerns, so I wouldn't hesitate in this case where both you and your son obviously feel uncomfortable continuing on in this teacher's care.

As for the concerns over an IEP for gifted extension, in my experience the only way to really get this going (unless the teacher is identifying your son as in need) is to get an independent psych evaluation done that will clearly outline the areas in which he needs to be supported (i.e. extended). Teachers, especially in the junior school, are often very reluctant unless you have some outside testing done.

#21 kiwik

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:39 PM

Given the situation and the fact there are still three terms of this year to go, if it were me I would be approaching the principal over these holidays and asking for a class change. I would take it from the perspective of a "fresh start" for your son which would allow him to set up a new system with a new teacher allowing him to deal with the issues of his medical condition. People request class changes all the time for far less important concerns, so I wouldn't hesitate in this case where both you and your son obviously feel uncomfortable continuing on in this teacher's care.

As for the concerns over an IEP for gifted extension, in my experience the only way to really get this going (unless the teacher is identifying your son as in need) is to get an independent psych evaluation done that will clearly outline the areas in which he needs to be supported (i.e. extended). Teachers, especially in the junior school, are often very reluctant unless you have some outside testing done.


Which is why I had testing done by an approved tester and supplied a copy of the report to the teacher as last year (I had this year's class placement already) as soon as I got the report, the report stated the need for an IEP and i waited 9 weeks for him to address it. I think I will have to bite the bullet and ask for a transfer to a class with a teacher I trust because at this point I can't see us establishing a satisfactory relationship.


#22 kiwikate

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:09 AM

Which is why I had testing done by an approved tester and supplied a copy of the report to the teacher as last year (I had this year's class placement already) as soon as I got the report, the report stated the need for an IEP and i waited 9 weeks for him to address it. I think I will have to bite the bullet and ask for a transfer to a class with a teacher I trust because at this point I can't see us establishing a satisfactory relationship.


Oh for sure. That sounds like a totally bad situation and i would be making contact tomorrow to meet with principal. Be firm in what it is you want- be polite and calm but entirely insistent. Good luck!

#23 Chrysalis Academy

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:16 PM

There is lying by comission, and there is lying by omission, and sometimes teachers communicate badly, or use shame, to such an extent that kids are really confused. They all suck.

My first grader wet her pants a couple of months ago. She was embarrassed and didn't say anything to the teacher - she tied her shirt around her waist. When I realized what happened and asked her about it, she told me that the teacher had said she couldn't go to the bathroom. I confronted the teacher about this the next day, and she said "No, I would never tell a kid they can't go to the bathroom!" So who was lying? I went back to Mo for more info:

They have a hand signal they are supposed to use when they go to the bathroom. I asked Mo if she had used it. She said she did and that the teacher said "No, that was just at the beginning of the year. Now you should know better and should go at recess." Could my six year old have made that answer up??? I ask you.

From talking to other parents who have been in the room when kids have asked to go to the bathroom, apparently the teacher shames them when they ask to go, and makes them give up their puppy paw reward bucks. So, technically, she lets them go, but she makes it so awful and embarrassing and punishing, that my dd doesn't want to ask.

So, again, is the teacher lying? Technically maybe not, but yes, in my book, she is lying because she tells me that kids are free and welcome to go to the bathroom whenever they need to, but the reality is they are shamed and embarrased when they need to go.

This teacher has turned my dd from a school-lover to a school-hater who can't wait till the year is over. It makes me sick to think about it. I feel so guilty for leaving her in the school this whole year, but I have had no choice because of work and financial demands. It's horrible. I'm so sorry for your son.

#24 SKL

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:25 PM

Speaking of the bathroom. One of the things my kids' (1st grade) teacher complained about early in the year was how often my kids asked to go to the bathroom. "I don't want to tell them not to go, but . . . ." Well, I was very glad to hear that she was in fact letting them go (assuming that was the truth!). I told her that one of my kids is part camel, but the other one does need to go more often than some kids. More likely, though, both kids were using frequent bathroom breaks as an excuse to escape the classroom. At some point (October I believe), Miss Camel asked to go to the toilet while in gym, and instead of the restroom she snuck up to the classroom and was caught trying to sneak some smarties from the teacher's stash. I'm told she no longer has bathroom privileges except at lunchtime. Which I can honestly understand, especially since I said she could hold it a long time if necessary.

#25 kiwik

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:23 AM

I don't think it is a good idea to force a child to wait - in fact it seems a bit abusive. Could they not send a buddy with her to make sure she doesn't give in to temptation?


#26 SKL

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:14 AM

I don't think it is a good idea to force a child to wait - in fact it seems a bit abusive. Could they not send a buddy with her to make sure she doesn't give in to temptation?

For some kids, this would not be acceptable, I agree. My kid really can wait and I do make sure she goes before school. I have had so many issues with this teacher, we are at a "pick your battles" stage. She does agree that my kid does not steal and sneak any more but after the rant she went on a couple weeks ago, you'd think she was on the waiting list for JD. (You have to be 7 to go in to JD or so I hear, thank goodness . . . .)

#27 readinmom

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 09:15 PM

In that situation, teacher is probably playing the denial card. ...but earlier poster, to say that teachers don't possess an honesty chip is over the top. Sorry, just my two cents...

#28 kiwik

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 11:46 PM

I do think when a child asks to go to the toilet the teacher may say "can you wait until we have finished ...". The odds are the child will say yes but sometimes they can't wait or it is longer than they think it might be. It also depends on a whole bunch of other stuff that I am not aware of (and the teacher might not be either).

#29 stoverdavid30

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:32 PM

That's sad but you have to report it.




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