JenniferB Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 I'm considering Logic of English after unsuccessful attempts to complete SWR or WWTR. I did successfully understand and teach the phonograms to my 3 oldest children, but we didn't get much further than that. I did some spelling dictation with my oldest daughter, but she and I both found it frustrating that there were so many steps and fingers and markings, etc. etc. All that is fine, but I was never sure that I was doing it right and we didn't get far enough to see those steps become natural to either one of us. So, now that my youngest is ready to learn the phonograms and my 2 middle children didn't get much spelling instruction, but just the phonograms, I want to try again and I'm thinking Logic of English will be more successful. I'm intrigued by the scriptedness of it. Otherwise, I don't feel confident in the material to use the WISE Guide or the WWTR manual. Thoughts? Also, I'm wondering since I still have the SWR phonogram flash cards, do I really need to buy the $18.00 (yikes - expensive) set of Logic of English cards? I was going to buy the e-book, PDF A and the student workbook PDF A, which amounts to only $25.00 to try it out. Thoughts on that? I own a print shop, so I don't mind the printing cost; it's cheap for us. But, I'm hesitant to buy the whole book for $75.00 (yikes!) if I am not going to understand how to implement it. I'm a very hands on type person, so I need to "do it" rather than just read about it to know if I can learn it and succeed at it. Thoughts again? Thanks to anyone who can help, offer advice, encouragement, support, etc. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom2pandc Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 I can't answer all of your questions concerning comparisons to SWR because I'm not familiar with it, but I can say we love logic of English here. It's very simple to do even when you don't "know" a lot of it yourself before hand. I learned a lot as I taught it to my son and as I'm doing it slower with my daughter. It's gently scripted but not so much so you can't ad lib it a bit. It's very incremental and builds on itself. I love it as a whole package of phonics, spelling rules, vocabulary, grammar, etc. Spelling is a little simple for some younger kids, but there are more difficult advanced lists online that correspond with the rules each lesson that can be used. I highly recommend the whole thing. We have the flash cards and use them at least once a week to run through as review. I'm not sure if they are different than the ones you have though Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 If you own WRTR, I'm thinking it would be more profitable for you to ask some questions and learn to do Spalding, rather than investing in yet another method. It isn't as difficult as you seem to think it is. :-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted April 16, 2013 Author Share Posted April 16, 2013 If you own WRTR, I'm thinking it would be more profitable for you to ask some questions and learn to do Spalding, rather than investing in yet another method. It isn't as difficult as you seem to think it is. :-) I sold it a while ago. :/ I am noticing that I succeed with the programs that are scripted or geared toward the student for self teaching because I or we can actually "do" them. Once I can do something for a while and it becomes smooth, I don't need the script anymore, but that script is vital for me at first. I am not there yet where I can read a philosophy and translate that to actual lessons where I know what to say and what to do. I have so many philosophies floating around in my brain that they get all kerbobbled. I can get confused mid lesson thinking (day-dreaming) about a particular philosophy that is usually not the one I'm trying to teach. I find that script so helpful. By the time my students are graduated I'll probably have this homeschooling thing down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 The fifth edition of WRTR is scripted. Just sayin'... :D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFM Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I have ordered and sold (without using or returned to the company) both Logic of English and SWR. I borrowed WRTR from the library and emailed Ellie lots and have been working Spalding ever since January and have seen growth in my son's ability not only to correctly identify the phonograms but to analyze words. Logic of English for me was very expensive and it felt as if after the year I used it I would be right back where I started. Unsure how to implement spelling again. I got SWR and it felt more confusing to me than WRTR. Although, I think it they both are great for many people it seems that the WRTR offered the most long term benefits and was the most cost effective. There is a learning curve and I am sure as my other children grow I will develop into a better teacher each time. :) I don't know if that was helpful at all. I might have just rambled. I was struggling with this decision up until November of last year (that was going on a year of researching and homeschooling). Oh and I *think* that LoE has a few phonograms added or taken away if I remember correctly. And SWR has different wording for introducing the phonograms *if* I remember correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 The LOE phonograms are similar to SWR and Spalding, but not exactly the same. ( , ) Also, from what I understand, LOE is not yet a complete program. It has 1000 words, I think. But doing LOE's 1000 words is better than not doing the 2000. I have to agree with Ellie, though. SWR is also very scripted. When I started, I put my dictation script next to my spelling list, and away we went. When I taught reference pages, I always followed the script in the manual. Three years later, I don't need the script so much, anymore, but I still refer to it from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. A Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 We use SWR but I have been able to compare the phonogram cards with the LoE ones and there are some differences. LoE has some extra phonograms as well as different wording and example words and if you're going to be using the LoE script it might get confusing to use the SWR cards. I'd be happy to PM and help you with SWR if you wanted to give it another go. I'm finding a nice groove and the dictation process has become smooth, so I'd be happy to help you work through it. No pressure though. Do what you think is best. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Oh, and let me add that there are now SWR dictation videos for 3 different ages on YouTube. Let me know if you want me to link you to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted April 17, 2013 Author Share Posted April 17, 2013 I decided to buy section A of LOE to try it out. We will see what happens. Maybe the layout of the LOE book will help me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted April 17, 2013 Author Share Posted April 17, 2013 Also, I sold my SWR last fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I think you can do LoE without the phonogram cards. Or you can make your own phonogram cards on index cards once you have the full list from the PDF you just bought. There is no special marking or picture on the LoE cards. They just have the phonogram on the front and the example words on the back. All the best. Of the three programs you asked about, LoE is the easiest to understand and use from the get-go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerileanne99 Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Logic of English has a really decent app available for all of their phonograms and gives a nice overview of rules. Even though we ultimately went with a different program, I still use the app. Much cheaper than purchasing the additional materials, and the app made teaching/learning much more efficient. I seem to remember the app was $2.99? Well worth it as even I learned some things. Apologies for not linking it- I am on my phone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted April 17, 2013 Author Share Posted April 17, 2013 So far I like the layout much better. One TM: Lesson 1, Lesson 2, etc. That is how my brain works. For a huge subject like English a clear TM is so nice. Maybe after I complete the lessons I'll have the tools myself to be more self sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorisuewho Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 We do Logic of English. I love it. I'm glad you are liking the first section. I think it is a great option to be able to buy it in pieces. If you hadn't sold the WRTR I would have encouraged you to try with that again though. I do think it is best to try to use what we have instead of jumping around. Also, regarding the amount of words covered in LOE, there are many words than just her 15 word "spelling" lists. She does a lot of work with with many forms of each word, suffixes, prefixes, and vocabulary development. So with the program you cover many many more words than just the simple lists. If you haven't watched these videos put out by the Logic of English to train teachers, they will help you tremendously to get the routine down! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 If you haven't watched these videos put out by the Logic of English to train teachers, they will help you tremendously to get the routine down! Since you didn't feel comfy with the teaching aspect of SWR/WWTR, make sure you take time to watch the videos linked above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted April 18, 2013 Author Share Posted April 18, 2013 Thank you! I am about halfway through all the videos. They are very helpful. When I tried WWTR it was around 2001 - no videos but I was fortunate to watch a trained teacher teach the phonograms. I learned a bunch from that, which is probably why I'm comfortable with the phonograms. When I tried SWR that was around 2004/5 and I bought a DVD and watched it over and over, but I never became comfortable with the program. It felt disjointed and like the lessons took soooo long on dictation day or when making a journal page. I didn't see any spelling improvement with my daughter and I got discouraged. Looking back I realize we needed to persevere. I probably would have become comfortable once the retention kicked in. Discouragement got the best of me. So, I'm trying again with my two middles and my youngest. I think LOE will work for us. Today I decided to buy Foundations for my youngest. The step by step just really makes sense to how my brain works. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrirob6 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 How did LoE work for you? I am torn between WRTR, SWR, and LoE Essentials. My concern is that SWR has 70 phonograms, LoE has 74 phonograms + 37 advanced phonograms, and Spalding has 87 phonograms. Which do I need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrirob6 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Also, I believe that SWR teaches y" as only 3 sounds; no long /e/ sound. Clearly, words with another vowel (ie. baby) has the long /e/ sound. Is Spalding like this, too. I know LoE teaches "y" with 4 sounds. I am wondering what the LoE extra 4 sounds are the advanced phonograms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sangtarah Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 I haven't used SWR, but did read through Spell to Write and Read as I evaluated my options. Someone here will know for sure, but I seemed to remember an advanced phonogram list in SWR that went into foreign language roots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrirob6 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 My previous message should read LoE 46 advanced phonogram cards. Sorry:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 SWR has 'advanced phonograms', too. They aren't taught as memorized ones like the basic ones are. They include things like 'augh' (which is a basic LOE one, I think), 'gu' (/g/), and 'qu' (saying /k/ vs. /qw/, for example). Spalding doesn't teach that 'y' says /EE/. SWR agrees with Spalding on that. We don't have a problem with the 'y' /EE/ thing here, although I know it bothers a lot of people. My kids actually have more of a problem with 'ee': "E, double e, always says /EE/." They took to chanting "never says /EE/" after the word 'been,' I think. :lol: They also get a kick out of "English words never end in i, u, v, or j" because one of the first words they learn is "you." Apparently, you is not an English word. :mellow: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirstenhill Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 LoE teaches the little saying "You and I are special" to go with the I, U,V and J rule...because, you know...it is fun to be special together and those are the obvious exceptions to that otherwise fairly useful rule. A lot of the LoE "advanced" phonograms are really the same combinations of letters as the basic phonograms, but with their uncommon sounds. For example, au is normally the /aw/ of author. But in the advanced phonograms you get au as the /o/ (long o) of chauffeur (which I had to look at the back of the card to spell...clearly, I could use some practice with the more advanced words as well...LOL!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 SWR has 'advanced phonograms', too. They aren't taught as memorized ones like the basic ones are. They include things like 'augh' (which is a basic LOE one, I think), 'gu' (/g/), and 'qu' (saying /k/ vs. /qw/, for example). Spalding doesn't teach that 'y' says /EE/. SWR agrees with Spalding on that. We don't have a problem with the 'y' /EE/ thing here, although I know it bothers a lot of people. My kids actually have more of a problem with 'ee': "E, double e, always says /EE/." They took to chanting "never says /EE/" after the word 'been,' I think. :lol: They also get a kick out of "English words never end in i, u, v, or j" because one of the first words they learn is "you." Apparently, you is not an English word. :mellow: Spalding doesn't say "never." :-) And children are encouraged to look for exceptions. :-) (There are only three or four English words which end with "u.") In many English-speaking countries (and in some places in the U.S.), people do say "bEEn." Spalding doesn't teach that as a rule. It just teaches the phonogram ee; when the children meet a spelling word that doesn't say /EE/, they underline it twice to indicate that in this word the phonogram doesn't say its normal sound, and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Spalding doesn't say "never." :-) And children are encouraged to look for exceptions. :-) (There are only three or four English words which end with "u.") In many English-speaking countries (and in some places in the U.S.), people do say "bEEn." Spalding doesn't teach that as a rule. It just teaches the phonogram ee; when the children meet a spelling word that doesn't say /EE/, they underline it twice to indicate that in this word the phonogram doesn't say its normal sound, and move on. I should have clarified that unless otherwise specified, things in my post referred to SWR teachings/sayings. In SWR, when a phonogram doesn't say one of its normal sounds, students place an "x" over it to indicate it is an eXception. My overall point is that there are differences between programs. LoE, as far as I've been able to determine, is a spin off of SWR which is itself a spin off of the Spalding method. The further you get from the original (Spalding, in this case), the more differences you will find, IMO. Some people will like that & some won't, depending on what those differences are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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