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Latin pronunciation--Classical or Ecclesiastical?

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#1 Maisy

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 07:27 AM

Is there a compelling reason to choose one over the other. We have to pick a path, and I have experience with neither.

Thanks!

#2 Janet in Toronto

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:07 AM

I chose Ecclesiastical because I pray and sing in Latin from time to time (Catholic church) and so that is what I was familiar with and what I would be using (orally) going forward. Barring those kind of circumstances, I'm not sure that it really matters.

Janet

#3 Janie

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:31 AM

:001_smile:

#4 TracyR

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:43 AM

We use the Ecclesiastical , because we hear it in church (Catholic) , and just because we like the sound of it better( more Italian sounding).
In all honesty I've heard it doesn't matter.

Classical pronunciation is more like what the scholars believed the Romans spoke.
Ecclesiastical pronunciation was developed in the middle ages for church purposes.
(in a nut shell:>)

#5 Paula in PA

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:53 AM

I think it's just a matter of preference. I chose classical because I wanted a secular curriculum, which usually use it, and a more 'authentic' feel to our studies, i.e. how it may have sounded in Ancient Rome.

#6 hs_gram

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:56 AM

We chose Ecclesiastical because both of the Latin programs we used recommended it and had pronunciation guides for it. It worked well for us. I think whatever you choose, the greatest help is to be consistent.

Blessings,
Darlene

#7 MomOfOneFunOne

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:14 AM

We chose ecclesiastical b/c we're Catholic and hear it at church, we have a monthly Latin chant class, and b/c it sounds prettier to our ears. However, it seems to me that classical is more prevalent outside of the Church.

We really like LfC but as hard as they try on the ecclesiastical pronunciation CD, they can't quite do it. Online resources are almost all classical.

I would emphasize, however, that in my experience it doesn't matter that much b/c it doesn't matter how you pronounce it, caelum is still sky. I think choosing one is what you just have to do to make it consistent in your home but you have to be familiar with both b/c no matter which you choose, you'll run into the other. So, we chose ecclesiastical and we'll stick with it but we also don't get in a dither when we hear classical.

#8 Cadam

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:26 AM

We use Ecclesiastical because that is what I learned in HS choir. I have heard that most (all?) College latin courses use Classical but I think you would need to check into that because there is a good chance I am wrong.

It really doesn't matter unless you plan to use it in church or choir.

#9 elegantlion

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:32 AM

We chose Classical. We are using LFC and it has both options.

#10 clwcain

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 10:03 AM

We use both.

The only place that I have found it to really matter is once you get into classical authors. The rhythm and meter of the prose and poetry of antiquity "works" better with the so-called Classical pronunciation.

Ecclesiastical music, poetry, and the secular Latin poetry from the late medieval era on is best tackled with Ecclesiastical pronunciation.

So, really, your choice depends on your goals. If you want your children to be able to speak and understand spoken or sung Latin, as well as read the last millenium or so of Latin literature, go with Ecclesiastical.

If you're focus is on Latin for the reading of classical authors, you could go with either, but the Reformed Classical would probably serve you best. This is especially true if you have an aspiring classicist.

If you're just doing Latin as part of a roots of English/SAT prep component of your homeschooling, it really doesn't matter.

If you're looking for auditory reinforcement, both are widely available. See Bolchazy-Carducci publishers for Reformed Classical pronunciation resources.

HTH

#11 latinteach

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 10:03 AM

Is there a compelling reason to choose one over the other. We have to pick a path, and I have experience with neither.

Thanks!


Think of the difference between Classical and Ecclesiastical as the difference between British and American English. Both are proper and correct pronunciations, but different. You can even choose to learn both. But when you are using one, be consistent and don't mix them together.

You can hear audio files of Restored Classical (the most prevalent Classical pronunciation used today) at the Wheelock Latin site. If you've always wondered what the difference is between the long and short vowels, this is the place to find out! Restored Classical pronunciation is based on the book Vox Latina: The Pronunciation of Classical Latin by W. Sidney Allen. This is the pronunciation you will hear at most universities and also at the growing number of conversational Latin conventicula being held in the United States and around the world.

http://ccde.umb.edu/...ute/latinbysea/
http://www.uky.edu/A...ics/videocasts/
http://www.classics..../buffaloniense/
http://www.wenval.cc...nventiculis.asp
http://www.uky.edu/A...estivumeng.html

The Ecclesiastical pronunciation is the Church Latin that Catholic, Anglican and other denominations use when singing or chanting in Latin.

#12 Maisy

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 11:02 AM

Dh was raised Catholic and had Latin in HS, so I think I will put this decision on him. :lol:

But I know he was wondering if anyone here had an opinion.

Thanks a bunch!

#13 Janie

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 11:56 AM

...he was wondering if anyone here had an opinion.


Sometimes there are too many opinions!

I needed the chuckle! :001_smile:


#14 AudreyTN

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 12:57 PM

I chose the curriculum I wanted to use and went with that pronunciation.

#15 Annie N

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 01:11 PM

Just wanted to add one note about Ecclesiastical pronunciation: there are some US sites which say that the accented e should be pronounced /ay/. However, in most of the world, this is not the case, e continues to be pronounced as a short e (/e/ as in red), so I emphasize that this is how it should be pronounced to my children. It's the difference between Yay–soos and Ye–soos (Jesus). Maybe I'm just a bit of a nut...

#16 Maisy

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 03:44 PM

I chose the curriculum I wanted to use and went with that pronunciation.

That's the promblem--Lively Latin comes with both on the pronunciation guide CD. Ugh--it was tough enough settling on a program!

Thanks!

#17 AudreyTN

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 05:39 PM

That's the promblem--Lively Latin comes with both on the pronunciation guide CD. Ugh--it was tough enough settling on a program!

Thanks!


That's tough! What do you think you might use after that? If anything...

#18 iwka

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 01:40 AM

Just wanted to add one note about Ecclesiastical pronunciation: there are some US sites which say that the accented e should be pronounced /ay/. However, in most of the world, this is not the case, e continues to be pronounced as a short e (/e/ as in red), so I emphasize that this is how it should be pronounced to my children. It's the difference between Yay–soos and Ye–soos (Jesus). Maybe I'm just a bit of a nut...


You are not a nut...I was listening to few demo in Latin curriculum's websites and I couldn't understand much...:tongue_smilie:

I found out that this is English - Latin pronunciation, and that there are quite different ways of pronunciation...
second page of this threat:
http://www.welltrain...ad.php?t=101153

I will have a hard time with Anglo Saxon pronunciation IF we choose to study Latin (still thinking)...

#19 srlpenny

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 07:23 AM

I was taught Classical myself, and planned on teaching the kids that way. But I feel weird in church whenever I'm pronouncing something differently than the rest of the parish, so I think I'll stick with ecclesiastical in the beginning and then if I have any Latin nuts like myself I'll teach them classical as well.

#20 Classical Katharine

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 11:58 AM

I think it depends on your setting and your goals. There've been lots of good answers already; I'll just add that in restored classical pronunciation, the sound of a word almost always tells you the spelling of a word, which offers some advantages for parents and children. (Ecclesiastical pronunciation has more sounds which can be spelled more than one way.)

If you choose classical, yet want your children to be able to sing choral music using ecclesiastical pronunciation, it's not difficult for children to learn the pronunciation for a musical piece while they are learning the tune, whether it's ecclesiastical Latin or another language entirely.

#21 Ali in OR

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 02:03 PM

We did Prima Latina with Ecclesiastical and then Minimus with Classical. We are using LFC now which gives you the option of either pronunciation. Dd preferred Classical so that is what we are using. She knows the difference between the two and doesn't seem to be thrown off when a word is pronounced Ecclesiatically. I don't think it's a big deal--whichever way you go, I don't think you'll kick yourself later and wish you'd done it the other way.

#22 latinteach

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 06:10 PM

You can easily learn both pronunciations. Classical is best if you plan to continue Latin into advanced reading (Vergil, Cicero, Ovid, etc.) university studies. Ecclesiastical is best if you plan to use the language mostly in a church setting. But you can easily switch between them.

Edited by latinteach, 16 May 2009 - 06:13 PM.


#23 Eva

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 05:52 PM

http://www.memoriapr...s/whichpron.htm

I ran across this when looking up this same question online.

Eva

#24 Audrey

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 12:03 PM

Is there a compelling reason to choose one over the other. We have to pick a path, and I have experience with neither.

Thanks!


Classical. Because it is the preference of scholarship. Try speaking Ecc. Latin in university and see if they don't snicker. You'll get far more respect with classical.

#25 Aurelia

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 12:46 PM

I will probably go with Classical when we get to that point, because that's what I learned in high school.

#26 Eva

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 01:08 PM

If you are going to study Latin at a university level, especially if you major in it, Classical is the way to go. However, they made a good argument for starting with Ecclesiastical. It is easier for beginners, it is what the Latin music is based on, is sounds wonderful for poetry and music, is was good enough for Dante.... lol

Since we don't know that we will go beyond 2 years of high school Latin and we are all beginners, we would love to understand Latin music and read prose with eloquence, AND since we can always learn the classical pronunciation later, we decided to begin with Ecclesiastical.

Just my 2 cents.

#27 Spy Car

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 01:09 PM

Think of the difference between Classical and Ecclesiastical as the difference between British and American English. Both are proper and correct pronunciations, but different. You can even choose to learn both. But when you are using one, be consistent and don't mix them together.

You can hear audio files of Restored Classical (the most prevalent Classical pronunciation used today) at the Wheelock Latin site. If you've always wondered what the difference is between the long and short vowels, this is the place to find out! Restored Classical pronunciation is based on the book Vox Latina: The Pronunciation of Classical Latin by W. Sidney Allen. This is the pronunciation you will hear at most universities and also at the growing number of conversational Latin conventicula being held in the United States and around the world.

http://ccde.umb.edu/...ute/latinbysea/
http://www.uky.edu/A...ics/videocasts/
http://www.classics..../buffaloniense/
http://www.wenval.cc...nventiculis.asp
http://www.uky.edu/A...estivumeng.html

The Ecclesiastical pronunciation is the Church Latin that Catholic, Anglican and other denominations use when singing or chanting in Latin.


Thank you for all these links!

Bill


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