Posted 04 November 2011 - 09:34 PM
What helped you get over this/understand this teaching of the church?
Posted 04 November 2011 - 09:44 PM
Posted 04 November 2011 - 10:35 PM
This is different from the RC teaching of the immaculate conception, which is that she was created without original sin, basically a whole different order of sinlessness--accordimg to RC doctrine, she not only DIDN'T commit any sins herself, as in EO teaching, but because of her unique and sinless creation, she was UNABLE to sin. Doesn't leave a lot of hope for the rest of us, that view, IMO.
Posted 04 November 2011 - 10:40 PM
I actually, like that eo teaches she was without sin. It makes the idea of living a holy life a bit more attainable, not on the same level as her, but a role model; a possibility.
How did I deal with her "ever virginity?" Not well at first , but someone mentioned that Jesus passed through a wooden door into the upper room at pentecost. If he could pass through a wooden door, why couldn't he pass through a door of flesh?
Posted 04 November 2011 - 11:17 PM
Posted 04 November 2011 - 11:18 PM
Posted 05 November 2011 - 09:44 PM
Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:10 PM
Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:17 PM
Wow, that sounds harsh and cranky... lol! Sorry! I'm gonna leave it, though, cause it's the truth! I do accept that I might come to a better understanding in the future and I might change my mind I'm definitely interested in what the most common teaching is (now and through the ages).
At the risk of sounding very sola scriptura , I've felt comfortable knowing that most everything in Orthodoxy is supported by scripture. What varies is the interpretation. I don't feel that a teaching like Mary being sinless would be supported by scripture. In fact... it seems like it may even oppose it, though I'm willing to stand corrected.
Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:20 PM
Another tradition is that she only sinned once, when she slipped away from the apostles and went on a mission to the peninsula called Mt. Athos. This view is not universally held either but shows that there is disagreement on this subject.
The Mother of God is an important figure and worthy of honor but I think the church has not defined the teachings about her for a reason.
Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:26 PM
Also, I was listening to Frederica Mathewes-Green podcasts today. She mentioned planning a piece of stone from Mt. Athos next to a small statue of Mary, as something "familiar" to her, so to speak. I didn't know why she would say that, figured it must be some story that I wasn't aware of. Now I know!!
Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:53 PM
Posted 06 November 2011 - 12:05 AM
Posted 06 November 2011 - 03:34 AM
Posted 06 November 2011 - 09:27 AM
Coco, there is a lot of variation between the two priests/parishes here. For me, when I know the variation, it helps me to not get all tied up in knots over things *I* think are over-the-top (at the time). This thread is a prime example
I need to get going this morning, but remind me to PM you something later.
Posted 06 November 2011 - 12:01 PM
In Vespers, we pray that we can get through the rest of the day without sin. I used to think this was a sort of Orthodox irony or something, but I am starting to understand it as a sincere prayer, for a lot of the same reasons as I can start to see the Theotokos as sinless.
Posted 06 November 2011 - 01:10 PM
Posted 06 November 2011 - 04:33 PM
Posted 06 November 2011 - 05:56 PM
Hope that helps someone
Posted 06 November 2011 - 06:40 PM
Coco, there is a range of priests & churches in Orthodoxy, some tend toward "akrivia"=strictness and some toward "ekonomia"=mercy, flexibility.
The priest you describe is more on the "akrivia" side, but what he is saying is well within the tradition.
I asked my own priest about the issue you mentioned about 'do you HAVE to venerate icons' and his answer was interesting-- he says that as Orthodox we have to agree with the dogma that goes with the icons. The icons point to the reality of the Incarnation. (See St John of Damascus, On The Divine Images: the idea is that since God chose to depict himself using matter = the incarnation, we honor that by depicting Christ and the saints or sacred history in icons. The Incarnation was as materially REAL as the wood+paint icon you touch today.)
Posted 06 November 2011 - 06:40 PM
And, (my opinion) it is not Orthodox to force new inquirers to do anything. If people want to take on Orthodox traditions & customs, it should be an organic, natural thing.
Posted 06 November 2011 - 07:57 PM
That said, some of these issues I have learned I could be okay either way. There is no real way I am going to know if Mary was sinless.
If she wasn't that is good news. If she was that is also good news.