Teaching social skills, conversation, etc.

[mommymilkies]

My 8 yo has some issues interacting with others. She doesn't understand figurative language, verbal irony, jokes (she has a sense of humor, but most jokes are beyond her). She doesn't get how to make conversation-things like letting others speak, not repeating the same things over and over, taking no for an answer, giving breathing room, etc. and she is entirely lacking in tact. These aren't things she learned at home. I'm not perfect, but I do try to model these things for her. And it's getting in the way of her making friends and getting along with the rest of us here at home. She isn't shy, and meets friends easily, but overwhelms them often.

 

To be clear:

We are a very talkative family

None of the other kids have these issues. Most of us are introverts and two of us quite shy, but these issues are different.

She gets a good deal of interaction outside the home-co-op, sports, music, etc.

We had her evaluated at the school last year for learning issues and possible dyslexia. That wasn't worth our time. We are having a terrible time getting further evaluations due to insurance.

She has profound Hashimoto's which has caused some growth delays, and the endo agrees possibly some learning delays, as well, but we need further testing.

 

I was thinking of trying something like Conversations with Character to teach her conversational etiquette more directly. Has anyone used this or something similar to teach these skills? I'm hoping shell grow out of it, but over the past 1.5 years, it has only become somewhat worse.

 

[dbmamaz]

just my experience, my boys sometimes need these things explicitly taught. but the same way you teach manners or chores. When you see her reacting inappropriately with her siblings, you stop and correct her and redirect her. if you see her interacting with people in the coop in a non-productive way, you quietly draw her aside and remind her of what she should be doing instead. my middle child went through several 'social skills' classes at public school, and none were in the slightest bit effective but me just being there and gently pointing out what he should be doing - that helped a lot more, it seemed.

[mommymilkies]

I do try, but she shuts down. Sometimes flat out drop to the floor mute or screeching. So I was thinking explicit teaching outside of when the behavior is happening. Kwim?

[Incognito]

Well, for the repeating in our house we have a mantra - not more than 3 times! So, while 3x can still be irritating, it really helps and is an easily understood rule.

 

HTH

[Catwoman]

I do try, but she shuts down. Sometimes flat out drop to the floor mute or screeching. So I was thinking explicit teaching outside of when the behavior is happening. Kwim?

 

 

This doesn't sound like a simple case of a kid not knowing when to be quiet and let others talk. Her reaction to your correction seems way over the top. I would understand if she got annoyed with you or even a little argumentative, but "mute or screeching" seems quite extreme to me.

 

Is it a control thing, where she feels like she has to constantly be in charge and in the spotlight and she can't deal with it if someone else is getting attention instead of her?

[dbmamaz]

well, honestly, with my older boy, i would ask him to tell me what happened, and i would listen sympathetically. then I would ask him "what do you think you should have done?" and he usually knew the answer - perhaps from the social skills, class, idk, but the in-the-moment reminders helped

 

my younger one is more stubborn. we had some screaming matches over the fact that i required him to say good bye to his friends . . .

 

some kids do well with 'social stories' . . . i never managed to use them. but for some kids with some issues its a really hard thing to make progress on. but i think the social stories often are drawn as pictures, sometimes even using your daughter as a character, and showing the wrong interaction and the right interaction, so she can see and hear it, when she's in a calm place.

 

good luck

[NotSoObvious]

I was just looking at the social stories books on Amazon. If you google autism and social, you'll get a lot of good ideas. (Mine isn't autistic either, but a lot of the social stuff still applies.)

[mommymilkies]

This doesn't sound like a simple case of a kid not knowing when to be quiet and let others talk. Her reaction to your correction seems way over the top. I would understand if she got annoyed with you or even a little argumentative, but "mute or screeching" seems quite extreme to me.

 

Is it a control thing, where she feels like she has to constantly be in charge and in the spotlight and she can't deal with it if someone else is getting attention instead of her?

 

Not a control thing. She does this during schoolwork, too, if any corrections are made. It's one of the reasons she went through a few evaluations. We were thinking CAPD or something to do with her delays from her severe medical issues (she didn't grow for 3 years, and we feel it hindered her in other ways than just height). She becomes completely non-verbal when she is upset. So talking to her during those times doesn't work. I am gentle with explaining things to her, but it ends all the same.

I was just looking at the social stories books on Amazon. If you google autism and social, you'll get a lot of good ideas. (Mine isn't autistic either, but a lot of the social stuff still applies.)

 

That sounds like what I'm looking for. Do you have recommendations?

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

We've used a combination of social stories, talking ahead of time how to act in certain situations, and quiet redirection when in actual social situations. For us the combination was helpful, I could redirect based on previous conversation to what is appropriate in a given situation.

[NotSoObvious]

 

 

 

These two came recommended:

http://www.amazon.com/Social-Story-Revised-Expanded-Anniversary/dp/1935274058

http://www.amazon.com/Picture-Teaching-emotion-communication-children/dp/1885477910/ref=pd_sim_b_1

 

 

I think I've decided on the second one, but it is pricey...

[NotSoObvious]

Also, this is one of my favorites, but it's written for parents and teachers to help kids navigate social situations.

http://www.amazon.com/Its-Much-Work-Your-Friend/dp/B000WMOFA2

 

It has taught me empathy for what my dd goes through.

 

[Catwoman]

Not a control thing. She does this during schoolwork, too, if any corrections are made. It's one of the reasons she went through a few evaluations. We were thinking CAPD or something to do with her delays from her severe medical issues (she didn't grow for 3 years, and we feel it hindered her in other ways than just height). She becomes completely non-verbal when she is upset. So talking to her during those times doesn't work. I am gentle with explaining things to her, but it ends all the same.

 

That must be very hard for you to deal with. It's probably incredibly frustrating at the time, as well as a nagging worry about how your dd will handle similar situations as she gets older, and/or when you're not with her to try to straighten things out right away. :grouphug:

 

I don't have any advice for you, because I haven't experienced it, so I would just be making things up off the top of my head, and I'm sure I wouldn't be able to think of anything you haven't already tried.

 

I think it's great that you're trying to help her work through this.

 

:grouphug:

[Barbara H]

These two came recommended:

http://www.amazon.co...y/dp/1935274058

http://www.amazon.co.../ref=pd_sim_b_1

 

 

 

These are both good books, but they are really different books with different purposes.The Carol Gray social stories idea is something you can read about more online so it is maybe less essential to own that book. http://www.thegraycenter.org/ You can find quite a bit of information on the author's site also with googling with search terms like social stories autism

 

As a resource for kids I really like the second book - Jed Baker social skills book. I would suggest checking the library for it first though because many libraries have it and it is expensive.

 

I would also suggest looking at the Michelle Garcia Winner resources http://www.socialthinking.com/

 

One thing I'd would encourage you to be careful about. There are a lot "be nice" "don't tell lies" "share" sort of character books out there. These may be great reminders for kids who really understand how to do all of those things but are just kids who maybe impulsive or forget why it is important to pay attention to it. If on the other hand, your child just really doesn't pick up on social information very easily these books can be frustrating. They reinforce they are doing something wrong, but "be nice" may not really be telling them anything they can act on. Even if they really want to "be nice" they maybe didn't understand how to do that. So, whether the child is on the autism spectrum or not, using curriculum that is designed to teach social skills to kids who haven't picked it up naturally may be really helpful. One thing that's great with homeschooling is that you can make this a regular subject in the school day so it makes it more normal for the kid to work on it.

 

Good luck!

[Joanne]

It sounds like applied behavior analysis would be of benefit. Has a professional mentione a spectrum diagnosis?

[bettyandbob]

You might want to consider nonverbal learning disorder as well as something on the spectrum.

 

Does she also have motor skill deficits. You previously had her evaluated for LDs. Were her academic skills even or were one skills way higher and others way lower. Even if she comes out with composite scores that are within normal ranges. The scatter on different parts of testing can tell you a little more.

 

Whatever you find for a diagnosis, it sounds like you will need to direct teaching through role play and professional therapy. I'd look for a therapist/therapy group that specializes in social skills. Informally, you can practice things at home. Role play scenarios before going to gymnastic class or scout meeting.

 

leave activities before breakdowns, even if you have to leave early. Start trying to chart her behavior , sometimes kids do very well even when they are frustrated and confused, but they have a limit and the next frustration sends them into bad behavior. So, it may look to you one thing upset her and sent her down, but really it was an accumulation over the previous 90 minutes -- so figure out if you need to leave in 75 minutes even if things look good.

 

Besides charting time, chart events. Be specific about everything that is going on before one of her breakdowns. Patterns that you didn't realize existed may emerge.

[Lucy the Valiant]

One of my friends did some pretty silly stuff role-playing with her daughters - she would go outside, put on a hat to indicate her new "self," ring the doorbell, and then practice with the girls (seeing if they took her coat, how they responded when she talked about the weather, etc.).

 

She is a cool mom, LOL.

[Celia]

Sounds like you might be dealing with her being on the autism spectrum. It would be worth doing ome reading on. For resources at home, I think Michelle Garcia-Winner's stuff could be a good fit for her.

[EmilyGF]

I just teach social skills explicitly to DS8 whenever I see him make a major faux pas. The key is not to get emotional about it. He loves rules and knowing rules like how far to be from people, when to look them in the eye, rude things not to ask, etc really help him.

 

Emily

[thebacabunch]

I would agree with some who have asked if you have had her evaluated for spectrum issues. ABA has helped my 8 yr old dd blossom socially.

[mommymilkies]

It sounds like applied behavior analysis would be of benefit. Has a professional mentione a spectrum diagnosis?

For the past 2 years, we've mostly been working on the medical aspect. I brought all of these up at our school evaluation, and they told me she wasn't dyslexic because she doesn't reverse all of her letters (oh my), etc. They were not certified or trained to dx dyslexia, anyway. Her general preliminary hearing test said her hearing was fine, but she has very profound auditory sensory issues. They told us her reading was definitely a problem, though she is very good at math. but they have no idea what is wrong and told us to deal with it ourselves.

 

She is finally to the point where she doesn't run out of the room before requesting I flush for her, but even a kid humming in another room sends her in a downward spiral. She has noise reduction headphones for this. We went to an audiologist for a CAPD evaluation, but we could not do it because our insurance "accidently" cancelled our insurance for the second time this year. So we have been trying desperately to get any sort of treatment or evaluation for her. Our doctor ATM refuses to refer us to anything except the school even though the school flat out told us they can't do anything for us. With insurance issues, were having trouble getting any help. Our ped endo at Riley's does agree with us that the 3 years she went with a non-functioning thyroid most certainly could have caused some delays, but it no longer seems to be the reason for her behavioral issues as her levels have been stable for a year.

 

Nobody has mentioned ASD because she is not shy, honestly. I know the symptoms are different for girls, but she doesn't entirely fit the profile. She is outgoing, though has boundary issues and some trouble with nonverbal communication (like getting that someone is trying to be polite but wants her to go away). She doesn't stim, but definitely has anxiety. For about a year she slept on my floor in the middle of the night with a fully packed supply bag on case of storms. She has an imagination. She writes poetry for me (minus the fine motor and spelling woes) and plays those terribly disturbing Lego games with the other kids (you know, the kind that make you wonder if your kids will be serial killers ;) ) and dresses up to play "school" or "house".

You might want to consider nonverbal learning disorder as well as something on the spectrum.

 

Does she also have motor skill deficits. You previously had her evaluated for LDs. Were her academic skills even or were one skills way higher and others way lower. Even if she comes out with composite scores that are within normal ranges. The scatter on different parts of testing can tell you a little more.

 

Whatever you find for a diagnosis, it sounds like you will need to direct teaching through role play and professional therapy. I'd look for a therapist/therapy group that specializes in social skills. Informally, you can practice things at home. Role play scenarios before going to gymnastic class or scout meeting.

 

leave activities before breakdowns, even if you have to leave early. Start trying to chart her behavior , sometimes kids do very well even when they are frustrated and confused, but they have a limit and the next frustration sends them into bad behavior. So, it may look to you one thing upset her and sent her down, but really it was an accumulation over the previous 90 minutes -- so figure out if you need to leave in 75 minutes even if things look good.

 

Besides charting time, chart events. Be specific about everything that is going on before one of her breakdowns. Patterns that you didn't realize existed may emerge.

 

Her math skills were advanced, but her reading levels were abysmal. It was only a couple months ago that she finally started to grasp simple rhyming rules, like cat rhymes with bat. The testing they did was very basic-grade level standardized test for reading and math, simple hearing and vision exam, one game on Earobics. There are no opportunities for therapy here, within 1.5+ hours, besides basic OT/PT/SLP at our small hospital. I have friends with kids on the Spectrum going through hoops right now to find anything at all.

 

I will definitely try charting. Good idea. I did one chart for school time behavior, but we haven't started a new one up. We just so busy. I am not the only one she does this for, too. A doctor, her SLP (she had speech issues), her ex-piano teacher (also a child psych from the school) and a co-op teacher have all gone through this with her, too. She has some fine motor issues for her age, IMo. She likes to write but her handwriting is atrocious. She is not clumsy and actually pretty good at softball batting and likes sports. She's not great, but I have a son with SPD of the gross motor kind, so she looks like a ballerina in comparison. ;)

 

Eta: Wow, thanks for the NLD suggestion, y'all. It's really not something I had even considered. We thought worse case she's ADD like ds and myself, but that's pretty spot on. She's not clumsy, but the rest fits.

[Dandelion]

Nobody has mentioned ASD because she is not shy, honestly. I know the symptoms are different for girls, but she doesn't entirely fit the profile. She is outgoing, though has boundary issues and some trouble with nonverbal communication (like getting that someone is trying to be polite but wants her to go away). She doesn't stim, but definitely has anxiety.

 

This perfectly describes my DS9. He was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome at age 7. He's extremely outgoing, has no shy bone in his body, and wants to make friends. But he struggles socially, mainly due to his inability to read nonverbal cues. Personally, I don't think the label really matters. What's more important is identifying what your DD needs and how to meet those needs.

 

You've received some great advice above. The only thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the importance of teaching social skills in context. Some of the latest research on social/cognitive issues pertains to something that's now being called "context blindness". Here's a brief article that explains (the author of the article, Dr. Peter Vermeulen, has also written a book on the topic - I have not yet read it, but plan to).

[thebacabunch]

 

http://www.theautismprogram.org/ This is a link for the autism program of IL. My dd8 has autism and does not stim. She is very social. Please know that there are resources available to you with insurance or not. I had to call the CA regional center on my own, tell them" I think that my dd might have autism" and they started the ball rolling. The school district won't be able to do much and won't want to without a diagnosis. BIg hugs to you and your kiddo.

[Jennifer-72]

_{A book I have found helpful for ds is Social Rules for Kids-The Top 100 Social Rules Kids Need to Succeed http://www.amazon.com/Social-Rules-Kids-The-Kids-Succeed/dp/1934575844/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362452524&sr=8-1&keywords=100+social+rules+for+kids#_}

_{I like that I can photocopy a page from the book and put it on the fridge and we practice that rule for the week.}