Lisa R. Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I've recently been thinking about different ways people perceive the world, make decisions, communicate with others, etc. and how those differences create conflict. For instance, the black and white thinker often sees one right way to do things. The shades of gray thinker sees lots of ways and thoughtfully chooses one. Conflict comes when the b & w person feels the gray person is thoughtless or less intelligent or less enlightened or whatever. The gray person is offended or irritated that the b & w person is so close-minded as to come to the conclusion that there is only one right option. As an example, let's take homeschooling. A b & w relative might feel that homeschooling is a poor choice because public school worked for them, and therefore it should work for everyone. A gray person would feel it a poor choice for them, perhaps, but may see why someone would want to do it. To further complicate things, I think b & w people can have some issues where they see gray, and gray people have a few b & w issues on which they won't budge. For the most part, though, their thinking falls one way or the other. I am a gray person and the daughter of a b & w person. I have a grown dd that is b & w. I'm seeing that this causes a fundamental difference in the way we make decisions and communicate with each other. We all get along, but it makes for interesting and often frustrating conversations. Ever seen this dynamic I'm talking about? Any specific examples? Am I making sense? Agree or disagree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinmami01 Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I was raised by a b & w parent and have had a b&w mentality myself. As I get older, I have learned that life just really isn't b&w and it is surely shades of gray. I hope that makes sense, LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 The older I get, the more shades of gray I see. I think that generally speaking, the more information you gather, and the more you allow yourself to listen to and glean from people with different viewpoints, the more gray you will inevitably see. A black and white outlook sometimes (not always - definitely generalizing here) goes hand in hand with a certain rigidity that prevents people from seeking out more information and listening to others. They're so convinced there's only one right way that they don't see the point of even discussing it. So it can be a self-perpetuating cycle. ETA: To clarify, I'm talking about areas where there actually are valid differing viewpoints and approaches, and people just choose not to consider them. I'm not talking about things that have been established as fact. I'm also not talking about moral/ethical issues (e.g. most people are pretty black and white on murder). I think it's entirely possible to be a "shades of gray" thinker and have strongly held personal beliefs (religious and otherwise). I certainly do. IMO more information helps people flesh out their beliefs, and know with greater certainty why they believe what they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewe Mama Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I am a mixture. Some things are hills I would die on...hence the black and white, but other things that cause some people to get their knickers in a twist, don't even phase me, which is where my grey comes in. I guess I'm an aging zebra! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Well personally (not like with other people), I tend to think b&w. I have *really* had to work myself to see shades of gray. For example, the house is NOT a mess if it is within 20 minutes of being company ready (and in our case, we don't have to worry about things like citations from licensing for having soap out or plugs not covered). Seriously. Gray is good :) I majorly stressed when I was sticking with the b&w thinking. I either stressed because I gave up trying to clean it or stressed because I couldn't get it "right." A few years ago, I found this other level though....As you travel down the road of black to white, in the land of grayness, there is a sweet spot. A patch of green! I try to plant roses (to stop and have a smell) there. Oh, but I have to *way* disagree with Julie. Though I can think of many topics that black and white is based on less information, MANY topics do become more b&w because of an overwhelming amount of information if one chooses to find it and accept it. There are many such topics throughout history that some person thought to be a nut was found out to be right down the road. This person (or group or whatever) had MORE information than almost everyone else and they were right. Further research, study, etc solidifies their beliefs rather than broadens it. Well, so basically, as with most things, I think there is a balance. I think that there are probably topics we need to be b&w on (whether in general or for us personally) and others we need to be more open to find shades of gray...or even a sweet spot :) ETA: oh, and another thing....I seriously don't worry about the interpersonal part. I really want people to like and understand me; AND I think there are issues that really are b&w. However, I accept that each person has the right and responsibility to be whatever black, white, shade of gray, or green they wish to be on any topic. I can't make other people's decisions for them, nor should I try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PachiSusan Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Black and white can also be a person who knows without a shadow of a doubt that they have researched and KNOW the decision is correct for them. For me, I am totally black and white about God as expressed in the Catholic Church, I have studied other faiths, and no faith and have come to this conclusion with much discernment that my love for Christ is best expressed through the Catholic Church. I am most certainly NOT less informed because I am black and white about this. Otherwise, i live in grey, which for me means I believe that others will make equally informed decisions that I might or might not agree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 My mother used to tell me off for being so black and white. Eventually I grew up I could see what she meant, lol. I think there are societal processes in force that prevent people from developing the ability to see grey, but I've also witnessed one person who sees virtually everything as grey. He doesn't seem to get anything done. From what I can gather, whether anything should get done is also a debatable issue, except we mustn't debate it because that would be too definite. With this person, I try to restrict my remarks to the weather and everybody's health... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Oh, but I have to *way* disagree with Julie. Though I can think of many topics that black and white is based on less information, MANY topics do become more b&w because of an overwhelming amount of information if one chooses to find it and accept it. There are many such topics throughout history that some person thought to be a nut was found out to be right down the road. This person (or group or whatever) had MORE information than almost everyone else and they were right. Further research, study, etc solidifies their beliefs rather than broadens it. Actually, I think we're probably on the same page as it concerns your point above. :) In my initial post, I was thinking more along the lines of areas where there actually are valid differing viewpoints and approaches, and people just choose not to see them. When it comes to undisputed facts, I totally agree with you. More information isn't going to change the facts (and if it does, they weren't solid facts to begin with). ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa R. Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 I see miscommunication on message boards because of these differences. A gray person states an opinion, and the b&w takes immediate offense as they feel that their choice is maligned. Really, the gray person doesn't care much what others do as they just feel this choice is right for them. The gray person takes offense at the b&w persons opinion because it just seems so drastic and sweeping rather than decisive. I'm not talking about moral or ethical issues here. I'm thinking of different curricula, teaching methods, child training, food choices, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I'm a mix. I do not have many black and white issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefoot Explorer Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I am definitely both depending on the topic. I think the deciding factor for me is whether something is a moral issue or not. I believe that there are certain things that are absolutely evil or absolutely good, and other things that depend on the situation. In those situational issues, the only black and white factor is following your own conscience. An example of the first category might be something like cheating on my husband. I see that as completely black, no possibility of gray whatsoever. An example of gray would be buying organic food. If I am strongly convicted that it is the right thing for me, it would be wrong for me to go against my convictions. But I would never point fingers at someone for buying non-organic who has never been convicted in that way. As a Christian I believe that they we are meant to live in freedom and love, and eliminate any unnecessary legalism. I see people who are stuck in strict black and white thinking as people who are bound to the law, because they are trying to prove their worth by following a long list of rules. I think that the only rules that matter are those that have to do with loving other people. Everything else is pretty gray, and unique to the individual. Anyway, just my two cents. I understand that there are people from all different belief systems represented here. Emily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 When it comes to undisputed facts, I totally agree with you. More information isn't going to change the facts (and if it does, they weren't solid facts to begin with). It is just that many undisputed facts HAVE been disputed. There are things today that are disputed greatly. One group of people will be found to be right, undisputably so, at some point. It is easy to point to the past and be fine with how it turned out. But there are people TODAY that are RIGHT (about science, parenting choices, whatever) and treated poorly because their view is unpopular, hokey, weird, harsh, opens a can of worms, costly, whatever. People who believe differently, even gray thinkers, have an issue with the facts as presented; but that doesn't change the fact that b&w was right. So many topics on this board really *do* have rights and wrongs (though most topics may well be a matter of opinion, shades of gray). We just have varying views about which side *is* right (or maybe it is a shade of gray); but ONE day, someone is gonna be proved right (whether it's black, white, or a shade of gray). Boy, this is a time I really wish I could write AT ALL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Pamela - I think you and I are approaching the OP's question from two different levels. :) The OP clarified the issues she's talking about (see her quote below) and those were the types of issues I had in mind when I responded. I agree with you that there are certain "absolutes", and that's not at all what I was thinking of when I replied. I'm not talking about moral or ethical issues here. I'm thinking of different curricula, teaching methods, child training, food choices, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefoot Explorer Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Pamela, I totally get what you are saying. There are issues that people are afraid to take a hard stand on because they would stick out like a sore thumb. I have very strong opinions about these things, but I would still label them gray due to the fact I don't think a person is sinning for choosing the opposite side, unless they have the same convictions as me. Is one of us right and one of us wrong? Yes, I think so. But I think most of those issues tend to be matters of lack of knowledge. Examples of things like this might be circumcision, education, vaccination, diet, alcohol, politics. I do believe that there is a right or wrong in all of these topics, but I also try to be understanding of those who have come to different conclusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrissiK Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I am a mixture. Some things are hills I would die on...hence the black and white, but other things that cause some people to get their knickers in a twist, don't even phase me, which is where my grey comes in. I guess I'm an aging zebra! I can relate to that. I think there are some things that I am black and white about - i.e. moral issues, but other things I am gray about - ie. homeschooling (I realize it's not for everyone). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 There's a bigger palette to life than black and white and various shades of grey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa R. Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 But I think most of those issues tend to be matters of lack of knowledge. Examples of things like this might be circumcision, education, vaccination, diet, alcohol, politics. I do believe that there is a right or wrong in all of these topics, but I also try to be understanding of those who have come to different conclusions. LOL. I see this as a prime example of a b & w person regarding the issues listed above. Saying there is a right and wrong on those issues, and that people that feel differently that you do must just have a lack of knowledge or less thorough research. That is exactly the type of thinking I had in mind when I wrote this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefoot Explorer Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I didn't mean it as any kind of diss. I was thinking of myself actually, and the fact that I have changed my mind about these sorts of things as I have learned more over the years. The possibility remains that I will learn new information that could change my mind again. Hopefully that clarifies what I am saying... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misty.warden Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Pamela, I totally get what you are saying. There are issues that people are afraid to take a hard stand on because they would stick out like a sore thumb. I have very strong opinions about these things, but I would still label them gray due to the fact I don't think a person is sinning for choosing the opposite side, unless they have the same convictions as me. Is one of us right and one of us wrong? Yes, I think so. But I think most of those issues tend to be matters of lack of knowledge. Examples of things like this might be circumcision, education, vaccination, diet, alcohol, politics. I do believe that there is a right or wrong in all of these topics, but I also try to be understanding of those who have come to different conclusions. I agree wholeheartedly with the bolded, have in fact lost many friends and been told I'm childish for believing that there is any "right" way to do anything at all, but not so much the underlined. Sometimes lack of knowledge leads to holding a belief that is different than what it would be if the same person got educated, however I don't think it deserves a "most". I have had the personal experience of having more and more research lead to me changing what was once a popular and "right" opinion I had held to one that makes people look at me like I've grown a second head. This includes curriculum choice and morals, just so you all know I'm not strafing off into just morals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefoot Explorer Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I think that believing in right or wrong has gone out of fashion these days. People see it as being hateful or judgmental, because of the prevalence of black and white people who are not gentle with their views or try to push their beliefs down your throat. I think the main thing that is annoying is when people think they have everything figured out and don't have anything to learn. In my opinion, the big issue isn't whether or not you believe in right and wrong, but whether or not you are kind to others. I wouldn't care how passionate someone was about their beliefs as long as they are respectful. I see what you are saying about the "most". There are some of these issues where we simply have to make the best decision we can based on the information currently available to us, with the humility to know that we could be wrong, but we are doing the best we can. I am like that about vaccination. I believe that I am making the right choice, but I accept that 20 years from now new information could come out that proves me wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom in High Heels Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 But are there 50 shades? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm more of a gray person, I suppose. I have some B&W issues, but they are few in number. My dad is a very B&W person, which tends to make me nuts. He's crazy smart, and looks at issues carefully, but he's very immovable on certain things. Unfortunately for me, it's frequently on my B&W issues and he's almost always the opposite. My mom is pretty B&W too, but she's a bit more flexible in her thinking, especially when I make a compelling argument. If I make the argument in many shades of gray (usually not 50-again, I couldn't help it), she might be persuaded to tiptoe slightly into a gray area. I generally prefer gray people as they are IME more easy going. That's not to say I dislike B&W people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candid Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I try to view other's actions with shades of grey and give them a benefit of a doubt, but for my own ethical decisions I try to stick by black and white. I do that because I find that if I want something that ethics can easily get twisted around in my mind to help me get what I want so if I have bright line of demarcation in my mind, I find it easier to do what is ethical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I just had a long discussion with my DH the other night about this issue. He called a woman who cut in line on the BART (light rail) "evil". I said that while cutting in line was selfish and rude, it wasn't a malicious act (nobody got harmed even if they were inconvenienced) and therefore not evil. He claimed that if an act is wrong, it is automatically evil. We're Catholic and I brought up the difference between mortal sins and venial sins, or between violations of civil law that are felonies vs. those that are misdemeanors. He claimed that they are all evil, just greater and lesser evils. To me, "evil" goes beyond just being wrong to actual malice. It's very frustrating dealing with a rigid B&W thinker... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I just had a long discussion with my DH the other night about this issue. He called a woman who cut in line on the BART (light rail) "evil". I said that while cutting in line was selfish and rude, it wasn't a malicious act (nobody got harmed even if they were inconvenienced) and therefore not evil. He claimed that if an act is wrong, it is automatically evil. We're Catholic and I brought up the difference between mortal sins and venial sins, or between violations of civil law that are felonies vs. those that are misdemeanors. He claimed that they are all evil, just greater and lesser evils. To me, "evil" goes beyond just being wrong to actual malice. It's very frustrating dealing with a rigid B&W thinker... Hmmm ... when I see someone do something like this, I might be slightly irritated. But my mind goes to why they might be so self involved. Maybe they have a family member in the hospital. Maybe they have autistic tendencies. Maybe their upbringing was poor and they were never taught manners. Maybe they were raised in another culture where there is another norm. I certainly wouldn't see it as evil. I used to be more B&W when I was a child, but I find I'm much less stressed if I have a pretty high level of tolerance and don't rush to judge people. I agree. And I'm truly baffled at black and white thinking. Apparently that's just not how my brain works. I might believe something in a black and white sort of way, but I always entertain other possibilities. I can't seem to not do that. Right there with you! I'm always a bit taken aback when people take comments on the board extremely personally or attack another person who just expressed their view point. To me, there's a big difference between saying "I think X" and "I think people who think Y are stupid". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I would still label them gray due to the fact I don't think a person is sinning for choosing the opposite side, unless they have the same convictions as me. Is one of us right and one of us wrong? Yes, I think so. But I think most of those issues tend to be matters of lack of knowledge. Examples of things like this might be circumcision, education, vaccination, diet, alcohol, politics. Okay, then I think I must be more gray than I think :) I don't even think it is NECESSARY to have a belief about those things! I do, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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