Processing Speed Issues

[brownie]

We just got our WJ results back and ds12 is 3 standard deviations lower on PS than his IQ, so finally an explanation! We have been trying to figure this out for awhile. I know I have posted before trying to sort it all out. We have been everywhere else besides the psychiatrist - there seem to be no other issues. So here's what we see: He works very slowly for his daily schoolwork (and chores, etc...) but has never had an issue with timed tests. He does have an issue formulating an argument and explaining his work in math. He is visual spatial and a big-picture thinker. He's very disorganized and forgetful. He is not hyperactive at all. On the other hand his achievement scores are 4 standard deviations above his Processing Speed. Is this supposed to mean it's not causing an issue? At least not at home? The neuropsych didn't say that but I read that somewhere on this board. She's talking an ADHD - inattentive type diagnosis and we're considering meds to see if they make a difference in his frustration level. Does anyone have books I should read or websites I should go to right now :) ? Here's the other thing...the neuropsych says there is no proven way to long-term improve PS, but I've been thinking about this. While he may never perform better on the PS test, there have to be a thousand ways to support that ability deficit. In fact, I would think ANY study skills gained would help. After all, the only issue is one of time and that's always going to be limited to 24 hrs a day. So where is there a list of study skills to speed up the work effort? If there's not one, there should be :) For example, the other day I walked my son through pre-reading the sub-headings and end of section questions for a science chapter. That cut the time required for him to do the assignment by TWO THIRDS!!! Schools teach this skill but most kids don't do it because they are lazy. DS needs to do this! When I pre-review a math section with DS BEFORE the math teacher teaches it online, his participation and understanding MULTIPLY many times over. The neuropsych said slow PS can interfere with class participation because they can't pull out the answer as fast as the other kids, but when ds feels confident he is an awesome participant! These look like ideas off of here: http://www.visualspatial.org/teachers.php but some of these bullet points I don't understand. So if you have any other study tools that would help a slow PS kid, or can provide more details on these ideas from the above website:

1. Expand visualization skills. Store and retrieve.
   
2. Teach how to organize information pictorially.
   
3. Teach how to take picture notes as well as word notes.
   
4. Imitate word processors in writing and editing. Cut/paste/add/reorder. Freeze Frame. Organize by graphics.
   

please list them here. Thanks! Brownie

[EdithRene]

Your son sounds a lot like mine...slow PS, inattentive ADHD, etc. One thing he's been doing is writing down the time at the beginning of each math problem. He has a lot of trouble staying focused and is seemingly unaware of time and when he's "spacing out". It's helped a lot with that.

[PeterPan]

Oops, sorry we forgot about your thread! I was just trying to be quiet and let other people jump in. Hurray to Edith for pulling it back up!

 

I think the way you're working on ways to teach him how to interact with materials is fascinating, good job. By now maybe you've gotten the final word from your neuropsych? I would challenge you on something, which is that I don't think the processing speed thing is a *deficit* so much as a *difference*. Read the Eides' book "Dyslexic Advantage" and see. There can be differences in brain structure that make the mini-columns farther apart. So when they go to make connections, it takes MUCH LONGER to get there. The wiring will sometimes take circuitous routes along the way, making all sorts of connections (feet in math, King George's feet, etc.) that you weren't expecting. Eventually the connection gets made. The path is longer, but it's more creative, with more hits in the brain. So yes lower processing speed, but it's a built-in DIFFERENCE, not a defect. Once you embrace that and leave our "only the fast are the best" culture, you open up more doors for things he *can* do well or even do *better* as a result. Makes my dd quite good at history, because she ends up with all these interconnections in her brain.

 

So that's thing one, think difference, not defect. Thing two. Focusing in a boring class is not processing speed but attention. Boring is still boring. Even if he doesn't *look* hyperactive, he may benefit from sensory input or a fidget toy. I'm not sure it's worth it to plunk my dc in front of long, boring, non-interactive screen sessions AND have to preteach, all to cover what I could cover in 1/3 of the time doing it myself. There *is* therapy that attempts to bore them out of their skull by forcing the brain to attend and thereby lengthen focused attention. (can't remember the name, we've been talking about it on the SN board lately and that's my bad summary of it) I had a friend make the argument that watching boring, non-interactive video classes was therapeutic and that they NEEDED to or they wouldn't be ready for college. That's a bunch of ridiculousness. The therapy actually puts sensors on, measures brainwaves, and has them interacting with the device, actively teaching the brain how to make the type of waves and focus. Sitting watching a dvd or whatever is PASSIVE. Their mind wanders, and they go into lull land. A little can be good. If it's something longer like a TC lecture, my dd will put it on while she does something like clean her room.

 

Organization, working memory, etc. are EF, and that you CAN make progress in. There are EF workbooks from Linguisystems, metronome options, etc. etc. The changes you make there are therapeutic changes working on making more wiring in the brain, more pathways, more function. Those results carry over to ALL areas of life, not just academics. Study skills are more focused. I don't do a cyberschool, so I'm not much help to you there. One thing your np may point out to you is that kids with low processing speed are working MUCH HARDER than other kids. So it's not that there are so many hours in the day and he better cram all the academics in. It's that the academics need to trim down and be more efficient to fit what he can actually DO and still have a life. It IS possible to do an exceptionally good job and spend a sane amount of time. Our np's #1 bit of advice was NOT TO WEAR HER OUT. So I chose not to. It's a very hard line to walk. Our np suggested the dividing line was whether our approach leaves her with energy to do her joy and creativity things (sewing, fan fiction writing, etc.). If I wear her out, she has no energy for that, and then it degrades to potato chip reading and vegetation. So there has to be a balance. My goal is NOT to make her like someone else in the NT high school rat race, because she's not going to win at that. My goal is to let her become unique and let that open doors. You may choose differently. I'm just saying that is what has brought peace at our house. She can't win at the rat race of high school by pressing harder and harder to keep up with people who process 3-4 times faster. She's going to have to be herself. There is a sort of counter culture, ditch the rat race movement out there. You might check out Cal Newport's book, which I haven't read yet but find intriguing. http://www.amazon.com/How-High-School-Superstar-Revolutionary/dp/0767932587/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361203867&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+be+a+super+star+student

[brownie]

OK thanks!So I'll add to the list:

 

Time awareness

Don't wear them out

 

I do have a linguisystems workbook and we tried it last year. I think he found it kind of silly. So did I so it dropped off the radar, but I plan to pull it back out this summer.

[PeterPan]

It's ok to test through the book. Some of the tasks should be easy for him. Make sure he's doing the task the way the book describes, not using his giftedness to work around it.

[brownie]

How much does processing speed impact composition speed? This is the one piece I still can't figure out. Seems to me processing speed (at least the types of tests ds took) would most impact his ability to take tests quickly, participate in class, and most significantly study time since he has trouble filtering out the impt info and learning without understanding.

 

I do NOT understand why it takes him half an hour to compose an 8 sentence journal entry when the teacher says only to take 15 minutes. This was AFTER I read the assignment with him, discussed it and had him put his head down to think about what he wanted to write about. Is this connected to PS in a way I am missing or is this just another issue all together?

[PeterPan]

Sorry, but I've just spent the whole day working with my dd on a project that is hard for her that involves writing, processing, thinking up things to say, typing them. If you're asking whether you should wonder if your dc is being bad or lazy and that that's part of why it's taking so long, personally I don't think so. I think if the assignment is STUPID or disinteresting or not well-structured it can *aggravate* low processing speed. Then you have multiple things going on.

 

You may find that customizing his work lets you create assignments that are more targeted to his needs and interests and issues. I think ps teachers use journal entries like that because it's a blanket way to bulk up writing. You could do something totally different, if bulk is the only point. And if working on getting it out (thought to word, word to written) is the point, then cut the assignment in half and give him the same amount of time. Or you give him the 15 minutes, tell him to write as much as he can as fast as he can, stop when the timer goes off, and he gets an M&M for every word.

[EdithRene]

Oh yes...that sounds very familiar. When my son is stuck and not able to write I have him say his thoughts out loud and I type what he says. Then he edits and rearranges it into something readable.

[Guest brooklyn mom]

i recently had my son (8) tested (original thought from teacher was dyslexia and it runs in the family) but his results show low processing speed -- 36 point spread between verbal comprehension and processing) -- So while he clearly does not have dyslexia, school work has been very difficult for him and homework a nightmare for us (the tester also believed him to have attention issues with which i concur). We have an iep meeting with school this week and i plan to ask for OT (they recommended for week motor skills) but other than extra time on tests are there any specific recommendations for low processing speed that the school should be able to provide.

Thanks.

[PeterPan]

i recently had my son (8) tested (original thought from teacher was dyslexia and it runs in the family) but his results show low processing speed -- 36 point spread between verbal comprehension and processing) -- So while he clearly does not have dyslexia, school work has been very difficult for him and homework a nightmare for us (the tester also believed him to have attention issues with which i concur). We have an iep meeting with school this week and i plan to ask for OT (they recommended for week motor skills) but other than extra time on tests are there any specific recommendations for low processing speed that the school should be able to provide.

Thanks.

 

 

Don't know if you're open to the thought, but homeschooling is a huge help for this. If they go to school, they spend all that time there, not necessarily fully attending (in attention, brain engaged), then they have to come home and do MORE homework. Wears them out because, as you're find, they're actually working 2-3 times harder to accomplish the same task! So you bring them home, spend less time, do it once, and you're done. With a dc that age, his core work can be done in 2-3 hours. Gives him lots of time to be creative, build, and do other things. There actually are UP sides to the profile these kids have, and they don't show it if they spend their whole day getting worn out by a system.

 

So anyways, it's just something to consider. :)

[brownie]

OK so I guess you're saying it can impact his writing speed :)

[PeterPan]

ADHD involves executive function deficits. It means in addition to processing more slowly, he's also probably 30%+ behind on EF. EF is a portion of the brain, and you can read about it. It affects how he organizes information, impulsivity, transitions, etc. etc. Basically every step of the writing process is being affected, and more than you realize.

 

BTW, I don't know if you know about Inspiration yet, but I finally broke down and bought it. They still have it 50% off, so it's $30 for a single computer or $45 for a household. That's the computer version. The app version has a lite for free or full for $10.

 

I find my dd has to have the info very in her head for it to come out well. The time they spend mindmapping and discussing the work ahead of time helps them organize it in their brain so they can write more easily when they sit down to do the act. Also, it's something age and time can help. My dd through 7th was pencil phobic, and now this year she has blossomed and writes for pleasure. We did some work with a metronome, got her an ipad that she can use with a keyboard (Dvorak, not QWERTY), etc. but I think it was all that plus time. So don't be too distressed.

[brownie]

Interesting. I have found that ds does infinitely better in math if I give him a 15 minute preview of the lecture the night before. It requires being organized and he is somewhat resistant, but wow! he is fully engaged in class if I preview the purpose and overall strategies that will be covered. Clearly I cannot cover an hour lecture in 15 minutes, but that is generally all it takes. Then his understanding is there after class and in the long run it is a time saver! He can do most of his homework himself and it takes less time, so he gets the 15 minutes back and then some.

 

Seems like LA may require some kind of parallel approach.

[doxa]

Hello everyone,

 

I am new here, and not really a classical homeschooler, but I was interested in hanging out on this forum since it's always fun to "meet" other homeschoolers and find out what is working for different people.

 

I have really enjoyed following this thread and hearing what others have learned about approaches to managing processing speed and executive function issues.

 

Regarding the opening post, my son also took the Woodcock Johnson test (and a full battery of neuropsychological tests) last year and also showed very low processing speed along with some working memory and executive function problems. His diagnosis was definitely ADHD-inattentive.

 

I just wanted to add that in our case, treating this with medications has made a night/day difference. Yes, they are extremely intimidating when you read about all the potential side effects, but my husband talked to some people with whom he works who told him stories of the enormous difference it had made in their lives, so we decided to give it a try. Our son's focus improved dramatically as did his processing speed. Although we still have some days that are slower than others, (the disability doesn't completely disappear), it seemed to pretty much put him on a much more even footing with others within his age range.

[Faithr]

While medication is great for some, some can't take the medication. So we have to learn to deal without that help.

[nancyb]

Hi ladies,

 

I started a new thread but nobody answered. I'm looking for good books on processing speed. Actually, it doesn't have to be completely about processing speed; it just needs to be helpful for dealing with processing speed. Anything you recommend?

[PeterPan]

Doxa, hi and welcome to the boards! Our np didn't recommend meds for us, but yeah that miracle change sometimes sounds very inviting. I'm glad to hear how well it's working out for you! :)

[doxa]

Thank you, OhElizabeth. I have enjoyed your posts on this thread so much that I've been taking notes! :-)

[PeterPan]

Thank you, OhElizabeth. I have enjoyed your posts on this thread so much that I've been taking notes! :-)

 

Oh yeah, I have pages and pages of notes of studying people's posts, hehe... You can find someone who seems to have a similar situation and search the boards with advanced search, limiting it to a term. If that doesn't show it up, you can also use a site:welltrainedmind.com search on google with your terms. Anyways, I've spent hours and hours and hours doing that over the years. It's a TREMENDOUS way to learn. And I love doing that with a person because you start to see how something went over the years with them. So you might google JennW in SoCal writing and read all her posts for the last how many years on writing. Or you might search LoriD on history. Or Janice in NJ on, well on just about anything, hehe.

 

:)

[brownie]

We got our report! Assessment was Asp (already had that) and ADHD-Inattentive with mood and oppositional issues likely caused mainly by frustration due to the academic issues. I'll tell you which scores were really low and you can explain to me if you understand :)

Stroop word-color score: delayed I remember this one. You had to read color words printed in a different color. This was the processing speed score

 

Retrieval Fluency - how fast you pull info from long term memory Borderline Impaired (4th %ile)

Visual Matching - Don't recall what this is?! Functioning Low (2nd %ile)

 

Most every other score is above the 80th %ile and well beyond. If anyone has any idea ho WJ calculates GAI, I'd like to know. He dropped just below the gifted range, unlike testing 5 years ago with WISC so I am wondering if it is integrating more exec function stuff because his achievement score still indicates 99%ile. And this is where the school is going to give me a hard time with the IEP. Our school district says they don't care about diagnoses if it doens't affect their grades.

[wingedradical]

Hi. I was happy to see the terms "processing speed" and "executive function." I only learned about recently so I am hoping some of you have some wisdom, resources and reading matter for me.

 

Let me first explain that I have two grown sons, both homeschooled using classical method, mostly pre-TWTM. After that, we had an empty nest for almost 10 years. Then---it's a long story, but I now have guardianship of a 15, almost 16, year old girl.

 

She has been with us almost a year and this was my first year homeschooling her as well as her first year outside of public school. She has many problems .. I am just not sure what they all are. :-/ She has been diagnosed as bipolar - I am not sure that is the case and if it is, that isn't her only problem, but I will say that adjustments made 4 months ago on her medication does seem to be helping her. She is a recovering self-abuser (cutting -her last time was a month after she came here) and has attempted suicide twice (before coming here) She was also abused (physically and sexually from a young age), neglected and bullied in the past so it is hard to separate which of her problems are due to nature and which are due to nurture (or lack thereof).

 

At first she seemed quite smart -- indeed, I believe she is in some areas. She has a better than average vocabulary, does well in sciences and very well in maths. For example, this year (grade 10), she has been going through Lial's precalculus on her own. She has asked for an explanation just once - but she always gets perfect scores except for the occasional small arithmetic error.

 

However, her approach to maths (and science) is very different than mine or my husband's. I am not really a maths person but my husband was a maths and physics major. It almost seems to us that she does maths -even advanced maths - rather rotely and without understanding- but it may be that she just can't put it into words.

 

She has a great vocabulary and even a good "voice" and mechanics when it comes to writing, but she seems to have trouble organizing and processing her thoughts. She also has trouble when you ask any question that requires her to think something through.

 

After seeing this for a while, I began to read and discovered the terms "executive function," "processing speed" and "working memory" and although I am not a professional, these seem to be an issue.

 

She is also very impulsive and does not seem to always understand (at least, emotionally) the concept of cause and affect irl. She also has difficulty with peer relationships. She wants to make friends but doesn't know how. She either clams up or acts childishly silly around other kids. Or she tells them her whole life story and scares them off! She has occasional asperger-like meltdowns (fewer as she has been with us longer) and she has trouble with impulse control at times. She just plain isn't prone to thinking ANYTHING through. When you ask her to, it's as if you are asking her to speak a foreign language.

 

She does go to a counselor (and a psychiatrist for meds). All I hear from the psychiatrist is that her problems are all chemistry and all I hear from the counselor is that her problems is all her early environment. I think it is both but the mental health field is mess for many reasons and there is currently a chasm of separation between psychiatry and psychology/counseling and education theory which makes is very difficult on a parent/guardian who is trying to help a whole person.

 

This year for school, I decided (rightly or wrongly) to not teach science (which she is good at but doesn't care for) and have her continue to do math (which she is good at and feels a sense of satisfaction about -- mostly because she IS good at it). Instead, we have concentrated more on social studies, composition and reasoning/logic and study skills. Social studies are my forte plus they require the kind of reasoning skills she lacks (at least, the way I teach them, they do). She doesn't seem much able to appreciate the great books I read with my sons during their high school. She is able to read them and understand the basic story and even recognize the more obvious iterary devises but she can't understand the deeper things that they of which literature speaks. She has a hard time making inferences, etc. So, I have gone back to the easier but well-written books one reads in middle school and tried to begin from there so as not to overwhelm her. We also read aloud as a family several times a week, but she has difficulty keeping track of what's going on unless she does is the one reading aloud to us.

 

After several failed attempts at "assigning" themes and research papers, I have resorted to helping her through every step in an attempt to help her learn how to compensate for lacks in executive function and working memory. It's hard work. As for Socratic conversations -- her response is usually "I don't know" to anything. I try to guide her but it is like pulling teeth. My husband and I try to have them at the dinner table and engage her - this has shown some small fruit, I think.

 

I should also add that she is disorganized in some, though not all, areas of her life, is very, very slow about completing chores, etc. Sometimes this is because she get easily distracted but usually, she is really trying. I told my husband the other day that watching her is like watching a movie is slow motion.

 

Things I have considered she may be affected by include Aspergers, ADHD and some kind of affective disorder and more. I am not a professional, of course and haven't had much testing done. The public school she was in was downright irresponsible toward her, imo (I know of people whose special needs and abused students were much helped by public school personnel, but this didn't happen in her case). Right now, we have guardianship -- we are considering seeing a lawyer and trying to change that to foster child because our state has good resources for kids in the foster system that we can't personally afford to provide for her. So prayer is needed there. We'd have to go through the program and to be honest, it's hard to contemplate foster kid classes. She is keeping me busier than I've been in years already and I am 61 years old, my husband is 64.

 

Still, the difference love, care, affirmation and a lot of affection has made in her is very noticeable, both to us and to people who knew her before. She has a very long way to go, though.

 

Are there words of wisdom out there or suggestions for websites/books? I know most of you don't have children with mental health issues like this, but perhaps you do know something about the learning process that she was denied as a child that can help me.

[PeterPan]

I started a new thread for you so you could get more responses. :)

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/466209-pulling-up-wingedradicals-thread-on-bipolarfosteradhd-teen-that-needs-help/

[Heathermomster]

Bumping for me ...