UmMusa Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I'm a little over halfway through Dumbing Us Down by John Taylor Gatto.... I did a search for his name and came up with nothing here. I thought that was weird. Before I homeschooled (this is my 3rd year) I never gave too much thought to 'the system', to why we just go along and 'do the next thing', or to much of how I wanted things to turn out for me in a long-term goal besides being in a happy marriage with kids (naive?). From the second I started researching homeschool I began questioning a lot. I'm so glad I woke up to this. Reading this book feels like he's preaching to the choir, but it helps shape and reaffirm my goals and values nonetheless. I feel more sure of what I"m doing, and that the system is not necessarily the 'better' way. I feel confident in giving my children the environment I'm giving them. Time, materials, family. What do you think about his ideas? I certainly think something is wrong with current 'schooling' and the education system as most people do, and wouldn't it be neat if that system were radically changed! I think homeschooling is starting to change it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 From what little I've read of his stuff he was right on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 My husband agreed to homeschooling after reading Dumbing Us Down 10 years ago. Best book purchase I've ever made ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Yup, DH and I very much liked the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 The fact that this thread is right next to an impassioned discussion of the Super Bowl commercials just makes me laugh. Carry on... Terri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maela Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I like Gatto a lot, and I'm interested to hear what others have to say. I definitely think that the system is messed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmMusa Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 The fact that this thread is right next to an impassioned discussion of the Super Bowl commercials just makes me laugh. Carry on... Terri Terri, what's funny is that I opened that Super Bowl commercial thread, I thought how it related to the book. I watched a few commercials and was just shaking my head at how we're so conditioned. The farmer one (which tugged at my emotion) was appealing to that core inner nature we all have that seems to be stifled in Gatto's school system. I'd like to ask "why" does school have to be a K-12 thing? It's so rigid. Why can't we teach and raise kids in a variety of ways and then let them contribute to society earlier on before complete indifference sets in?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Terri, what's funny is that I opened that Super Bowl commercial thread, I thought how it related to the book. I watched a few commercials and was just shaking my head at how we're so conditioned. The farmer one (which tugged at my emotion) was appealing to that core inner nature we all have that seems to be stifled in Gatto's school system. I'd like to ask "why" does school have to be a K-12 thing? It's so rigid. Why can't we teach and raise kids in a variety of ways and then let them contribute to society earlier on before complete indifference sets in?? Because then they wouldn't be good "worker bees". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Yes, when I first read it, I didn't "get" it. I was a committed homeschooler, so my attitude was, "So what?" Now I teach the products of those schools at the local community college, and I understand. At the high school they're doing in honors sections what I did in middle school 30+ years ago. They don't read well, they don't analyze well, and they're used to having academic material given to them on a platter. The older students returning to college are better-prepared than the average recent graduate. "Factory" schools, indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Watching The War on Kids on netflix right now. Gatto is in this film. I hate what I'm seeing in this film because I have to believe it. The prison-school life, it's what my kids' public schooled friends report. It's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewe Mama Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I read it several years ago and it really deepened my desire to homeschool forever. I loved the Farmer commercial, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmMusa Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 Watching The War on Kids on netflix right now. Gatto is in this film. I hate what I'm seeing in this film because I have to believe it. The prison-school life, it's what my kids' public schooled friends report. It's true. In that same vein, I think I've grown up in and now live in good districts where the schools don't seem like prisons. That's one reason I was so shocked at how the system was portrayed. Even in a good district, though, you still have the same issues of having the family separated and having small networks that don't provide nourishment to the soul. Old and young should mix more. Kids should have more connections to their past and to their futures. It's true we live too much in the present. gotta run... bedtime for little ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omma Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 He also wrote, "Weapons of Mass Instruction", which came out on paperback in 2010. I only just heard about it today, though, when I saw an ad in "The Old Schoolhouse" magazine. Brenda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 It is recent, as the film claims. I was bored out of my mind in school a generation ago, but we moved freely, used the bathroom, were given the benefit of the doubt, had more time between classes, had time to eat lunch...things have changed for the worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Its' a must read imho. Gatto rocks; he's on my list of Educational Influencers. Reminds me of what Esquith is doing in L.A. though I wonder given the recent Youtube of the 2nd grade teacher on the east coast who just quite (saying he made around $70K AND that he couldn't help his poor readers on his own time, etc) makes me wonder how teachers like Esquith do what they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunnyDays Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I've read a couple of Gatto's works, and he is dead right, unfortunately. I think it takes a lot to speak out against a system you were a part of for so long, and try to influence change. My DS was in public school for a few years. His experience wasn't "bad" and we were one of the "great" schools in the area. Didn't matter... you still can't fit a square peg in a round hole, regardless of the quality of the peg board. (I just started typing a list of issues I saw, but I deleted it, because I wasn't sure where it would end, exactly.) The system is, unfortunately, broken. There are a lot of good teachers in the trenches still trying to make a difference, but they can only do so much in the confines of such a structure.... and that's not accounting for plenty of other teachers who shouldn't be in the classroom. I need to watch the movie mentioned above. We're still trying to figure out how my son's secondary years will look, but returning full time to public school is last on my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSOchristie Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I just watched The War on Kids. My six year old would be suspended or expelled by this point. All of his drawings, and they are plentiful, are of tanks, soldiers toting weapons, ninja tossing throwing stars, knights with swords, and volcanoes. He also constantly wants to play Star Wars (fighting with lightsabers), Ninjago (fighting with roundhouse kicks and swords), knights (fighting with swords), or army (fighting with pretend grenades). Having been a teacher, I knew it was not a good fit, this movie just reaffirmed all that. He also has every single "symptom", except not able to concentrate on tasks, of ADHD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistyMountain Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Am I the only one who wasn't impressed by the War on Kids. The clips the chose were the most sensationalized. I went to school with a zero tolerance policy and it we never had instances like the ones they described. I know they happen but it isn't super common. Also the ADHD section wasn't that impressive either. We do over prescribe but it isn't made up. The fact they said that the UK doesn't do Ritalin prescriptions isn't even true. They don't for children under 5. I know adults who went on medication as adults and the difference in their ability to function improved dramatically. My dh has been realizing he is having trouble at certain tasks at work and is thinking of going to see someone about ADHD.I know there are too many people getting diagnosed but it isn't made up to keep kids in control at school. Then they have Alfie Kohn do a lot of speaking. He distorts statistics to fit his ideas like with unconditional parenting. It was OK but I rather focus on facts and a closer look at issues than the way this documentary was. John Gatto is the guy behind the unschooling movement right? So I'm not sure I would love his books either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessa516 Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Its' a must read imho. Gatto rocks; he's on my list of Educational Influencers. Reminds me of what Esquith is doing in L.A. though I wonder given the recent Youtube of the 2nd grade teacher on the east coast who just quite (saying he made around $70K AND that he couldn't help his poor readers on his own time, etc) makes me wonder how teachers like Esquith do what they do. Thanks for the link to your blog post. I have a bunch more reading to do now! :thumbup1: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I would suggest being a bit leery of Gatto as he tends to play fast and loose with his source material and statistics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunnyDays Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 John Gatto is the guy behind the unschooling movement right? So I'm not sure I would love his books either. No, you're thinking of John Holt. John Taylor Gatto used to be a teacher in NY, and eventually resigned from teaching to speak out about the problems in public schools. I would suggest being a bit leery of Gatto as he tends to play fast and loose with his source material and statistics. Interesting, I haven't heard that... do you have any links or recommended reading on that?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PachiSusan Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I would suggest being a bit leery of Gatto as he tends to play fast and loose with his source material and statistics. I'd be interested to see some links on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Thanks for the link to your blog post. I have a bunch more reading to do now! :thumbup1: ymvw! I'm a reading fool. Education and educational anarchy are 2 of my fav subjects :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavender's green Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I've read some excerpts on his books and thought they were excellent. However, I do think he sensationalizes some things and isn't too careful with his facts. I don't have have any links about it, I just know I've read things of his where he cites things that I know to be true but misrepresented (either exaggerated or not taking everything into account) to bolster his argument. Still worth reading, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Well I guess I won't be watching that movie. I am ADHD (not on medication, but am considering it since my perimenopausal state has made it worse for me and everyone in my family is complaining. I used to be pretty well functioning just with massive amounts of coffee and/or iced tea). So are at least two of my kids and my final is being evaluated for it now. My middle one cannot function as an adult without medication. SHe has it so severely. My oldest has refused medication in the last few years and is surviving but not thriving as well as he would be if he was on medication. In terms of school, my dh has always called schools "prisons" and prisons "schools" as we pass by them on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Yes, the critics I've read of Gatto complain that he broad-brushes too much. Of course that is true of so many things that we agree need change. There are decent politicians out there, but the system is non-functional and aloof in some ways. There are decent doctors out there, but healthcare in the U.S. is too expensive and uneven. And so with the schools. There are pockets that are OK, but the overall direction just isn't good. Here's a decent outline of some of the issues: http://gaither.wordp...blic-education/ I still like his work. Some years ago it kept me from enrolling in a "career changers" program to get a teaching credential. I've been much happier teaching in situations other than public K-12. The friend who told me about him prior to that period did enroll eventually in that program after homeschooling, and she is very, very unhappy as a public school teacher. She has told me over and over that Gatto got it so right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I enjoyed listening to Gatto speak a few years ago in person, but he tends to go off on tangents and is lax about facts and citing sources to back up his claims. (See Milton Gaither's post here for specific examples.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewe Mama Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I watched War on Kids earlier today. Alvin would have been bounced out of Kindergarten on Day 1. Why? Every drawing he makes involves knights with swords, cowboys with guns, or David and Goliath, complete with the slingshot. He also loves to give hugs and pretend he's a snake (flicking his tongue out and tasting the air.) All of these things would have him suspended or expelled. This is nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Am I the only one who wasn't impressed by the War on Kids. The clips the chose were the most sensationalized. I went to school with a zero tolerance policy and it we never had instances like the ones they described. I know they happen but it isn't super common. Also the ADHD section wasn't that impressive either. We do over prescribe but it isn't made up. The fact they said that the UK doesn't do Ritalin prescriptions isn't even true. They don't for children under 5. I know adults who went on medication as adults and the difference in their ability to function improved dramatically. My dh has been realizing he is having trouble at certain tasks at work and is thinking of going to see someone about ADHD.I know there are too many people getting diagnosed but it isn't made up to keep kids in control at school. Then they have Alfie Kohn do a lot of speaking. He distorts statistics to fit his ideas like with unconditional parenting. It was OK but I rather focus on facts and a closer look at issues than the way this documentary was. John Gatto is the guy behind the unschooling movement right? So I'm not sure I would love his books either. No, you're thinking of John Holt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamppost Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 If you're looking for threads here and you don't find what you're looking for, try a "site search" on Google: https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=iw#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=site:http%3A%2F%2Fforums.welltrainedmind.com+john+taylor+gatto&oq=site:http%3A%2F%2Fforums.welltrainedmind.com+john+taylor+gatto&gs_l=hp.3...134.7383.0.7639.28.25.2.0.0.0.157.1687.20j5.25.0.les%3Bepsugrpq2high..0.0...1.1.2.hp.MRvBNzpYDKk&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41867550,d.aWM&fp=1ad428cbc129307b&biw=1366&bih=643 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I just finished this one a couple of days ago. I thought that he had some interesting insights into the school system, if a bit extreme, but then I got to the chapter/speech on how the Puritans were wonderful and if we could just have homogeneous communities where people are all the same and we could kick out people with different values it would fix all our educational problems. At that point I was more than a little :blink:. I'm still not quite sure what he was trying to say there. I certainly wouldn't want to live in a community where everything thinks the exact same things as me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof3littles Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I think he can be thought provoking. I haven't read Dumbing us Down in years though. I certainly think he has a lot of things worth consideration, but there are definitely portions that I choose to disregard and leave behind. Same for Holt. DuD definitely had some good nuggets worth ruminating over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Twain Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 If you would like to read an excellent book which chronicles the changes in the educational philosophy of the public school system over the last 100 years and the results of the changes, read Hirsch's The Knowledge Deficit. It includes relevant data and research, explaining why schools formerly produced better results than currently. I found Hirsch's book to be the best so far in helping me decide on education philosophy. If you dislike homeschool advocates who promote emotional arguments devoid of accurate statistics, then you should read Hirsch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistyMountain Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 If you would like to read an excellent book which chronicles the changes in the educational philosophy of the public school system over the last 100 years and the results of the changes, read Hirsch's The Knowledge Deficit. It includes relevant data and research, explaining why schools formerly produced better results than currently. I found Hirsch's book to be the best so far in helping me decide on education philosophy. If you dislike homeschool advocates who promote emotional arguments devoid of accurate statistics, then you should read Hirsch. Thank you. That one sounds like a book I would find interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I know just in the 13 years of teaching at my local public high school kids are learning less - at least in math/science. Switching to block scheduling hasn't helped and has caused many to cut up to a third of their questions off the final exam due to not covering the material. Others have given up on giving finals. The other difference is in the kids. When I first started, the average student would actually try a difficult question - they'd sometimes get into groups and try to figure something out. Now, the average kid will look at something for a minute (maybe). If it's deemed "too difficult" they'll write down some garbage to show they "tried" and move on. They won't even care if they get the solution later. According to our policy, credit has to be given for "trying" and as long as they get credit they don't care about whether they actually learned anything or not. It's sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterflymommy Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 It's interesting how pervasive dumbing down is reaching even to this day. Remember the recent threads about the reduced standards of proficiency for different races? The idea of egalitarianism gets perverted to Orwellian proportions. I was also thinking of DD during the SB commercials... lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristinannie Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I think Gatto needs to be read in light of his life. This is a man who left a high paying job to work in the public school system to try to change the lives of kids. He fought the system and really tried to "educate" kids instead of "school" them. I don't agree with all of his ideas, especially about the Puritans. However, he is passionate about a subject that many people try to dismiss out of hand. I have to appreciate his tenacity. His book Weapons of Mass Instruction is a much better book IMHO. I did not realize all of the problems with public schooling until very recently in my life. I didn't realize all of things that I had been "socialized" to believe. It was very hard for my to overcome some of the programming I received in PS (excessive tolerance for all lifestyles no matter how sinful they may be, thinking that having more than 1 or 2 kids was irresponsible for the environment, extreme feminism where I had to try to be the same as a man, thinking that happiness comes from material success, thinking that I would never have an abortion but I can't tell someone else what to do, thinking that sex was almost mandatory before marriage, thinking you should focus on being happy and get rid of anything in your life that doesn't make you feel good, etc). These things were deeply embedded in me. On top of that, I didn't realize how pathetic my education was. I went to a great college and a top law school, but I have not been educated. Most of my education came from reading great books on my own time. Now that I am preparing to teach my kids, I realize that I have to teach myself first. I just started Analytical Grammar. At age 36, I finally understand what an adverb is! Things have gotten much worse since I was in school. I teach faith formation at our parish. I work mostly with middle school and high school kids. We will often be discussing a passage of Scripture and I will use the Socratic method to try to get kids to go deeper into the meaning of the passage. They cannot and will not do this, even the gifted kids. One time I even had a gifted 8th grader say, "Just tell me what I am supposed to think." That was the scariest sentence I have ever heard. These kids have been conditioned not to think for themselves. In high school, they are given a sheet of paper for every class that tells them exactly what they need to know for the final (although most of the kids don't have to take the final and can choose to keep their grade as long as they didn't miss too many days of school). The best and brightest of our future leaders have not been taught to think or to create. It is a very scary situation. So, I would not throw Gatto out just because he is extreme. He lived this. I know many people who have gone to war who are extreme because they lived it. It is hard for us to understand what they went through. It is the same for Gatto. He presents things in a way that is most shocking because he is trying to open the eyes of people who refuse to see things as they really are. We don't need to be shocked because most of us already have open eyes. However, he has a lot of great things to say. I will not, however, be dropping my 4 year old off downtown in London and having them find their way home... :crying: As far as Alfie Kohn, his book Punished by Rewards is an excellent read. The first half of the book was extremely enlightening to me. I really disagreed with his solutions, but I think the book is worth reading just for the first half. It is very well researched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwallowTail Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 My dh and I read his book when I was pregnant, and it was the tipping point for our decision to homeschool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistyMountain Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 As far as Alfie Kohn, his book Punished by Rewards is an excellent read. The first half of the book was extremely enlightening to me. I really disagreed with his solutions, but I think the book is worth reading just for the first half. It is very well researched. I did read Alfie Kohn. His research is very cherry picked and does not prove anything. I read it starting using some of it felt guilty when it didn't work and went back to really think about things and analyze them. He picked things to prove his point. He picked a few studies many of which didn't even fir the right age group. There are plenty of studies out there that contradict his view that were ignored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHASRADA Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Has anyone mentioned his enormous tome, "The Underground History of American Education"? I read it back when it was just being published in the early 2000s. It's long, some sections can be dry, but I had a lot of Aha! moments going through that book, particularly as someone who earned a bachelor's in education without learning any of this historical background of our education system. I am looking forward to watching The War on Kids. BTW, I graduated 20 years ago, and we only had 3 minutes between classes, 25 min. for lunch and the vice principal guarded the cafeteria door to make sure we didn't leave until the bell rang, we needed hall passes for everything, and couldn't exit the building during school hours. It was a senior privilege to eat lunch on the front lawn during the last couple months of school. This was a top-notch, safe middle-class school. I don't see this lack of freedom of moment as anything new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Has anyone mentioned his enormous tome, "The Underground History of American Education"? I read it back when it was just being published in the early 2000s. It's long, some sections can be dry, but I had a lot of Aha! moments going through that book, particularly as someone who earned a bachelor's in education without learning any of this historical background of our education system. I am looking forward to watching The War on Kids. BTW, I graduated 20 years ago, and we only had 3 minutes between classes, 25 min. for lunch and the vice principal guarded the cafeteria door to make sure we didn't leave until the bell rang, we needed hall passes for everything, and couldn't exit the building during school hours. It was a senior privilege to eat lunch on the front lawn during the last couple months of school. This was a top-notch, safe middle-class school. I don't see this lack of freedom of moment as anything new. I just started that one today. I'm intrigued, but also a bit confused by his statements that the book is "speculative history" and that he mostly "uses his intuition." Is that his way of saying that he read a few history books and then made up the rest? :confused1: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof3littles Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I read the Underground History of American Education, but that was probably in 2005 or so. It would be interesting to reread at this point in my life after HSIng a few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girl Power Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Saw this today and it made me think of this thread:) Beck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiana Daniels Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Watching The War on Kids on netflix right now. Gatto is in this film. I hate what I'm seeing in this film because I have to believe it. The prison-school life, it's what my kids' public schooled friends report. It's true. I think this will be my next Netflix pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PachiSusan Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 I just watched it. Wow. I finished it and just sat with the credits rolling and had tears rolling down my face and a sick feeling in my stomach. I know that he used more extreme situations than most school districts, but when they went through a typical child's school day and then talked to kids about it I was so sad. SO SO Sad that we put our kids through this. For what? This documentary put me on my ear about some beliefs and misconceptions I had about schooling and cemented to me why I have to make my daughter's experience of learning better than what I had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirch Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 I just watched The War on Kids (finished it yesterday). Some of it I think was a bit sensationalized. I thought the two main teens they interviewed kind of seemed like they liked hearing themselves talk and were milking the attention a bit (which would actually tend to support the idea that they're not feeling heard). The stuff about ADD/ADHD and the drugs I thought went a bit far. I agree that meds are waaay over-prescribed un the US, and I don't doubt that the drug companies have a huge hand in that, and I know some kids are overmedicated to the point of being zombies. But I've also heard stories of kids whose lives have been radically improved by meds, and not just in terms of functioning in a classroom. But I think the points about the idiocy that is zero tolerance and the antagonistic, authoritarian atmosphere of many schools were right on the mark. The points about the lack of due process, using statements against kids, and police questioning without parental presence or notification or a lawyer made me wanna sue somebody! I sub at our local high school (well, I did before baby), and it's a comparative paradise. But even there, the bathroom policies are ridiculous and there's often an us vs. them atmosphere. Expectations are waaaaay lower than when I was in school 18 years ago (no way it was that long ago!!!). And the testing is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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