How are you using Killgallon Sentence Composing for Middle School?

[Chrysalis Academy]

How are you using Killgallon Sentence Composing for Middle School?

 

Are you having them write out all the sentences, or doing it orally, or some combination??

 

Did you use another Killgallon book before it?

 

ETA: Which Comes First - Sentence Composing for Middle School, or Grammar for Middle School?

 

What else are you doing for writing (or have you already done?)

 

People whose opinions I respect have recommended it, but I'm not exactly sure I . . . get it. Anything you can tell me about it, how you have used it, whether you liked it, what benefits came out on the other end, would be helpful.

 

Thanks!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

How are you using Killgallon Sentence Composing for Middle School?

 

Are you having them write out all the sentences, or doing it orally, or some combination??

 

Did you use another Killgallon book before it?

 

What else are you doing for writing (or have you already done?)

 

People whose opinions I respect (yep, like you, Ruth!) have recommended it, but I'm not exactly sure I . . . get it. Anything you can tell me about it, how you have used it, whether you liked it, what benefits came out on the other end, would be helpful.

 

Thanks!

 

Not Ruth, but I'll at least give the thread a bump. :)

 

We use it for a change of pace, if we only have a short time for writing one day, to bridge the gap between programs such as when we were waiting on the new edition of MCT to be released, etc.

 

It's the first Killgallon we've used.

 

We use WWS and MCT as our main programs.

 

I have mixed feelings about it. My dd thinks it's fun, so do I. We use it so randomly that it's hard to pinpoint the benefits in DD's writing. We're using so many things that it's a little tricky sometimes to know where each skill came from--especially when it comes to style, which is the focus of this book.

 

I plan to use it more regularly during our break between WWS 1 and WWS 2.

 

Wait--we have Grammar for Middle School: A Sentence-Composing Approach. Is that something different? I would say it's mostly writing and not grammar, though. I have always found the title to be misleading.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yeah, I am finding the whole Kilgallon thing really confusing. I have the green book, Sentence Composing for Middle School. I see a book called "Grammar for Middle School" but I can't tell if it should come before or after Sentence Composing. Now I see there is a book called Paragraph Composing for Middle School, or some such thing, and *that* sounds like what I really want . . . but it sounds like from the teacher's guide I downloaded that it is at the end of the sentence composing-grammar sequence. So I'm wayyyyyyyy confused.

 

So far in the Sentence Composing book, we have just done the sentence unscrambling exercises - and I don't really get what we're supposed to be gleaning from that, exactly. Maybe I'm not teaching it right? We are doing them orally, and it is mildly amusing, but there is way to much great out there to spend time on mildly amusing! So I'm trying to figure out: do I have the wrong book? Are we missing some crucial piece? Is there some payoff that will happen if we persist with this?

[Woodland Mist Academy]

So far in the Sentence Composing book, we have just done the sentence unscrambling exercises - and I don't really get what we're supposed to be gleaning from that, exactly. Maybe I'm not teaching it right? We are doing them orally, and it is mildly amusing, but there is way to much great out there to spend time on mildly amusing! So I'm trying to figure out: do I have the wrong book? Are we missing some crucial piece? Is there some payoff that will happen if we persist with this?

 

 

Mildly amusing...lol

 

I agree mildly amusing doesn't earn much time in the day--if any! We only spend a few minutes here and there using it, and it's worth its keep for us for that amount of time. I don't think I would block off big amounts of time for it--I know I wouldn't.

 

There are other exercises in the book I have. Is yours entirely unscrambling?

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I do know I wouldn't hesitate to drop it, if needed. If something happens and we never use it again, I don't think there would be a huge loss.

[Crimson Wife]

The sentence unscrambling is just a warm-up exercise for each section. The "meat" of the program is the imitations of the model sentences. My DD was young when she did the two Killgallon books she's used (Story Grammar for Elementary and then Grammar for Middle School) so I allowed her to dictate while I transcribed. She did SG the semester before MCT "town" and G4MS after completing "town". In retrospect, I should have had her complete MCT "town" before starting any Killgallon because having a solid grasp on phrases and clauses from "town" made the 2nd Killgallon book go quite a bit more smoothly. The frustration she had with SG was because she had difficulty recognizing the grammatical structure of the model sentence. It often took several tries to get her imitation to match the structure of the model. After completing "town", she found it much easier to recognize the structure of the models.

 

Right now, my tentative plan is to start my DS with Sentence Composing for Elementary after he finishes MCT Grammar Town.

 

I haven't used the "sentence composing" books yet but I am interested in the forthcoming paragraphs one.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Oh, I'm definitely not opposed to dropping things - we just dropped Latin! :huh: But I want to make sure I give it a chance, first.

 

The green Sentence Composing book I have has 4 sections: Sentence Unscrambling, Sentence Imitating, Sentence Combining, and Sentence Expanding. We've done the first 4 (of 8) SU activities. The others do look meatier. Maybe I should hang in there, or skip ahead.

 

Although I'm still not sure if I should be doing the Grammar for Middle School book first, to get the full benefit . . . . Crimson, dd10 has just finished MCT Town. Do you think there is enough new stuff in the G4MS book to do after Town? She definitely could use more practice with verbal phrases.

 

Yeah, the Paragraph book looks pretty cool. Maybe I just have to get past this unscrambling thing. It feels kinda silly, to be honest.

[Crimson Wife]

Crimson, dd10 has just finished MCT Town. Do you think there is enough new stuff in the G4MS book to do after Town? She definitely could use more practice with verbal phrases.

 

 

Yes, there are definitely things covered in G4MS that are not in MCT "town". I never even heard of an "absolute phrase" until G4MS. Lots of practice with the various types of phrases and clauses as well.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Oh, I'm definitely not opposed to dropping things - we just dropped Latin! :huh:

 

:svengo: You can't just casually mention that in a post! ;)

 

But I want to make sure I give it a chance, first. The green Sentence Composing book I have has 4 sections: Sentence Unscrambling, Sentence Imitating, Sentence Combining, and Sentence Expanding. We've done the first 4 (of 8) SU activities. The others do look meatier. Maybe I should hang in there, or skip ahead. Although I'm still not sure if I should be doing the Grammar for Middle School book first, to get the full benefit . . . . Crimson, dd10 has just finished MCT Town. Do you think there is enough new stuff in the G4MS book to do after Town? She definitely could use more practice with verbal phrases. Yeah, the Paragraph book looks pretty cool. Maybe I just have to get past this unscrambling thing. It feels kinda silly, to be honest.

 

The unscrambling seems contrived to me. We like the other exercises more. What you've posted here makes me thinks the Grammar book we have might be a good fit since it deals with phrases. That's one reason I still have it on the shelf for when I can fit it in. The extra review would be good for us, too.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

Yes, there are definitely things covered in G4MS that are not in MCT "town". I never even heard of an "absolute phrase" until G4MS. Lots of practice with the various types of phrases and clauses as well.

 

 

This is good to know. Thanks!

[Chrysalis Academy]

:svengo: You can't just casually mention that in a post! ;)

 

 

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: So, how 'bout them Giants?

[Woodland Mist Academy]

:lol: :lol: :lol: So, how 'bout them Giants?

 

 

Apparently they're not speaking Latin..... :toetap05:...those Giants and their mysterious ways...

 

:smilielol5:

[Kalmia]

We have used both elementary books and are currently using Grammar for Middle School. For my handwriting-phobic son, I type selected exercises into MS Word for him to imitate. We skip the unscrambling and combining exercises, I don't think they are useful. The imitations are where the learning comes in. We use it in a supplemental manner. One exercise per week or so.

 

Note: The Sentence Composing for Middle School is a step up from Grammar for Middle School in terms of sentence complexity and it introduces paragraphs for imitation.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Double post...sorry!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

Note: The Sentence Composing for Middle School is a step up from Grammar for Middle School in terms of sentence complexity and it introduces paragraphs for imitation.

This is good to know. Thanks.

 

I'm curious if there is a carryover into the student's writing. I'm wondering if we're not using it consistently enough to notice it.

[Catherine]

We are using Kilgallon sentence Composing for Middle School this year, with WWS 1. My ds is an 11 1\2 yo sixth grader. He's done all the exercises so far, but I decided to skip the last exercise in the second section, Sentence Imitating, and move on to the third section, Sentence Combining. However, as the lessons in WWS get longer, we use Kilgallon less and less. Writing is a difficult chore for him and even though I decided to make it a focus for this year, he can only do so much. We are on Week 17 in WWS.

 

I have found Kilgallon to be valuable. Although we have not used the grammar book, it sounds very good. Imitating the sentences really solidified some of the grammar he's learned, and it has also freed up some stuck creativity. I think part of the purpose of the sentence unscrambling exercises is to make some of the grammar elements more obvious. Also, the construction of well-written sentences is explored by showing both the economy of words, and the effectiveness of techniques like repetition in different lessons. There is very little actual grammar pedagogy in the book-it's all taught organically by just asking the student to make a similar sentence. IOW, rather than ask the student to write sentence with five huge adverb clauses in a row, preceding the skeleton, as in lesson 16, he is asked to simply write a sentence like the one shown. This has worked well for ds, although he finds it very challenging and it sometimes takes him a long time to do the assignments.

[Crimson Wife]

I'm curious if there is a carryover into the student's writing. I'm wondering if we're not using it consistently enough to notice it.

 

I saw a very big improvement in sentence variety after using Story Grammar on a daily basis for a semester. Prior to SG, my DD wrote in very simple S-V-O sentences. Afterwards, she used the sentence tools that she had learned via Killgallon. My DH is friends with a guy in our town who is a bestselling sci fi writer, and DH showed his friend the opening scene from DD's NaNoWriMo novella. The guy specifically praised DD's sentence structures, which I credit to the two Killgallon books she's done.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Thanks! Hmm....I'm wondering if I've underestimated the program. I'm going to re-evaluate how we're using it.

[Cosmos]

I probably shouldn't reply, since we aren't using the Killgallon books. In fact, I don't own any of them, though I keep meaning to get one. (But then I'm not sure which one, so I put it off . . .)

 

Anyhow, I found the idea of the exercises very interesting, though not the "chunking" ones that appeared prominently in some of the samples.

 

So we've been doing some exercises on our own. I think they are Killgallon-style exercises or at least getting at the same idea as Killgallon.

 

1) Sentence combining. We do something similar to what is described in this Introduction to Sentence Combining. In fact, we started with that exact example. The idea is that you (the teacher) take a sentence from good literature, pull it apart into all the separate ideas, and give that list to the student. Then he tries different ways of putting the sentence together. Finally, you compare it to the original and discuss the different effects the various combinations have.

 

2) Sentence imitation. Take a sentence from good literature and write a new one, using the original sentence as a grammatical model.

 

I find them valuable, and ds enjoys them. In our examination of the sentences in both exercises we end up talking about lots of different things -- grammar, poetic devices, rhetorical devices, vocabulary. We probably spend 20 minutes studying one sentence. He write several combinations or imitaitons and we do a fair amount of discussion.

 

I do intend to get one of the books, but I know we could never do ALL of the exercises in it. For us it's a focused exercise once a week or so in place of a regular grammar lesson, so I select the sentences carefully.

[Crimson Wife]

Sentence imitation. Take a sentence from good literature and write a new one, using the original sentence as a grammatical model.

 

This is exactly what the bulk of the Killgallon exercises have the student do. Getting the Killgallon book vs. finding one's own model sentences is like doing WWE with SWB's workbook vs. coming up with one's own narration/copywork/dictation exercises.

[Cosmos]

 

This is exactly what the bulk of the Killgallon exercises have the student do. Getting the Killgallon book vs. finding one's own model sentences is like doing WWE with SWB's workbook vs. coming up with one's own narration/copywork/dictation exercises.

 

That's sort of what I figured (that the imitation ones were the main thing). And that's a good analogy to WWE.

 

Since we're doing it so sparingly -- once a week at most -- I haven't felt the need for the book. But I think I'd like to get one at least to see what types of sentences they pick and what works and genres they are taken from. I've mostly been using sentences from literature that we're actually reading, but I can see from the samples that Killgallon uses a wide range of sources.

[danybug]

Our experience with Killgallon was great. My ds just finished "Paragraphs for Middle School". I found that his writing has definitely improved. It is more creative and he has surely utilized skills he developed from Killgallon. His writing imitates and follows more of the style and detailed description that he saw as the examples in Killgallon. Prior to using it, my ds' writing was plain and definitely not as descriptive and creative.

 

We started WWS last year towards the end of the year and my ds didn't hate it, but was not wowed with it. So, I decided to finish this Killgallon book before picking the WWS back up. My ds thoroughly enjoyed using Killgallon. He worked through most of the book on his own and showed me each days assignments. I just broke the book down in to sections for each day. And he really enjoyed the final writing assignment. I am definitely pleased with our Killgallon experience and plan to continue implementing it.

 

I have one of the high school books and I think we will begin that next month. My only complaint is that there is no teachers guide for the book I finished. I found myself wishing there was one only to make checking his work easier for me ;) I think some of the other books have online resources for that.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Danielle, where did you get ahold of a copy of Paragraphs for Middle School? I thought it wasn't out yet . . .

 

I did order Grammar for Middle School today. What clinched it for me was the fact that it seems to be the book where the tools are explicitly introduced and named. I think the practice with phrases, especially, will be helpful. I realize in reading through some of the teacher's manuals that dd's writing issues are primarily stylistic - her grammar is excellent, and the vocabulary is improving, but her sentences are pretty bare and not terribly varied. She can identify different kinds of phrases and clauses, but she rarely uses any "alternative" constructions in her writing. I'm thinking that Killgallon might really help with that.

[danybug]

Danielle, where did you get ahold of a copy of Paragraphs for Middle School? I thought it wasn't out yet . . .

 

I did order Grammar for Middle School today. What clinched it for me was the fact that it seems to be the book where the tools are explicitly introduced and named. I think the practice with phrases, especially, will be helpful. I realize in reading through some of the teacher's manuals that dd's writing issues are primarily stylistic - her grammar is excellent, and the vocabulary is improving, but her sentences are pretty bare and not terribly varied. She can identify different kinds of phrases and clauses, but she rarely uses any "alternative" constructions in her writing. I'm thinking that Killgallon might really help with that.

 

My apologies, I reversed things in my mind. We finished "Grammar for Middle School" and will begin "Paragraphs for High School". From our experience, I think that Killgallon significantly helped my ds with exactly what you stated is an issue for your dd. The effects of all the work with imitation really forced my ds out of his simple sentence box. He has added much more depth and varying style to his sentences.

 

I am not sure why it is called "Grammar". It did introduce some new sentence/stylistic vocabulary, but other than that my opinion was that it really taught to process how great sentences are constructed and promoted the learner to imitate them and then apply them. For these specific things, I give Killgallon two big thumbs up!

[SunnyDays]

Rose, since we're just tagging along a semester or two behind you with most curricula, thanks for this thread!! I've been thinking about the same thing. :) (Surprise, LOL!)

 

Thanks to everyone for your insights. I think this would be good for DS for the stylistic reasons mentioned. One question - do we need to do at least one elementary book first, or can I jump right into Story Grammar for Middle School?? This would be next year, 5th grade, after finishing MCT Town.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Cris, hopefully Crimson Wife will tell you what she thinks, since she's used the Elementary books, but my impression from reading other threads is that the exercises aren't that different, it is just the content/literature chosen is more "grown-up" in the MIddle School books - nothing remotely offensive in content, but it does have authors like Stephen King and Michael Criton, definitely more "adult" books. I think the elementary series is more drawn from children's literature.

 

Dd is really enjoying the passages in Sentence Composing for Middle School - in fact, she started a commonplace book to write down her favorites!

[Annabel Lee]

After reading through this thread, I'm still not clear on which book to use first: the one with Grammar in the title or the one that *only* has Sentence Composing in the title. Which comes first?

[Chrysalis Academy]

LOL!!! I still don't know, either! When my Grammar book arrives, I will let you know what I decide to do . . .

 

Reading the Paragraphs for Middle School teacher's guide, it sounded like Sentence Composing comes first, then Grammar, then Paragraphs, but reading what people are writing here, I think it makes more sense to do the Grammar book. I'll let you know what I think when I have them both in front of me, but I would love to hear from someone - anyone? who has used them both!

[Crimson Wife]

I haven't actually used the sentence-composing books yet, but it appears from the previews that at least at the elementary level the SC book is easier. That's why I went with the middle-school grammar book after the elementary one. The challenge level is similar in the two books, but the middle school one uses the proper grammatical terminology (e.g. appositives rather than "S-V splits") and as mentioned by a PP, the sources of the model sentences are books aimed at a more mature audience. With the elementary book, I had no problem allowing my DD to read any of the titles that Killgallon used as sources. With the middle school book, I required her to ask me for approval as there were a few that I felt the full novel was age-inappropriate for her. The sentences in the Killgallon book were innocuous, but I don't want her reading Stephen King or Michael Crichton until she is in high school.

[SunnyDays]

Is it the Sentence Composing book at the elementary level that uses proper terminology? I was thinking that I recall that from another thread. I'm wondering if I should start with Elementary... I think DS could handle the work at MS level, but I'm with Crimson in that I'd rather hold off on him being introduced to some of those authors, since I wouldn't let him read the real books yet!! :)

[lewelma]

Sorry, Rose, that I did not see this earlier. We have been at summer camp! :hurray:

 

Let me preface this by saying that I am *terrible* at using a curriculum as written. Last year when my ds was in 7th, I started using the Sentence Composing for Middle School and just skipped to the imitation sections. I'm sure that some kids would need help taking apart sentences and putting them back together, by my ds did not. But what we quickly found out is that my ds likes to have more clarity in the grammatical structures that he is imitating. And the middle school book has lots of different types of sentences mixed together in the same sections. So we simply jumped into the Sentence Composing for High School book.

 

In the High School book, each section focuses on a single type of grammatical structure worth adding, like appositive phrases or adverb clauses. So you can actually see how different authors use the same constructions for various effects. Yes, the book has more difficult concepts than the middle school book, but we are moving through it quite slowly. And might go back and just do the whole thing again when we finish.

 

My son is not a big writer, so we are doing it orally together. We spend a LOT of time discussing various uses of the same grammatical technique. Well, not lots of time in total, but definitely lots of time for each sentence. Like 20 minutes for 3-5 sentences. We do 20 minutes 2x per week, so it might take us a decade to finish!! Here is just a bunch of questions off the top of my head. I don't use a list, I just go with the flow of the discussion:

 

Why does it work?

Do you personally like how it is used in this sentence?

How is it used differently by different authors?

What happens if you put the phrase/clause in a different place?

Does it put the subject too far from the beginning of the sentence? or too far away from the verb?

Does it change the power of the sentence?

When might you want a rambling sentence vs a sharp one?

How could you construct one for your purpose?

When do you personally feel it is less effective?

Is it ever used in a manner that is unclear?

What makes it unclear?

Which of the sentences would be easiest to imitate for you personally? Why?

Is there a type of sentence that you would like to come back to because it is interesting but currently too hard?

 

We also take the sample sentences and imitate them using the topic for his weekly essay to practice using it in context. He does some and I do some. We compare. We laugh. It is actually a lot of fun.

 

Like a pp said, I could go and get good sentences to imitate from the literature we are reading, but boy is it easy just to open a book that has done all the work for me.

 

HTH,

 

Ruth in NZ

[Chrysalis Academy]

Thanks, Ruth! Summer camp - I'm so jealous! It's just so very gray here right now, and we are starting a case of the February doldrum, I think . . . though it is California, so I know I shouldn't be complaining!

 

Your explanation of how you are using the program is very helpful, so thanks! I skipped ahead through the rest of the unscrambling exercises today, and we did an activity on comma splices - although this is not an error I've ever seen dd make. I'm going to skip ahead in this book to the imitating section, I think, and eagerly look for the Grammar book. Sometimes I worry about skipping lessons when I haven't seen the "big picture" yet, because I wonder if it's an important building block for later, but I'm feeling pretty confident from reading responses in this thread that I can let the sentence unscrambling stuff go, and head for the more "meaty" sections I see coming later.

 

 

Good to know that you have found the SC for HS more helpful. I think it is really unfortunate that there isn't better consistency in the content of the books across levels! Most of the thread I've read about Killgallon, it seems like we're all just trying to figure out which the heck book we want, and the answer is different in different levels!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Thanks, Ruth! Summer camp - I'm so jealous! It's just so very gray here right now, and we are starting a case of the February doldrum,..

 

Here too.

 

Ruth, you could offer writing and science summer camps to WTMers! ;)

 

Thanks for your input regarding Killgallon!

[SunnyDays]

LOL... Ruth, I think we'd all LOVE to join you at summer camp right about now. :D I just keep reminding myself that in a few short weeks, March will be underway and that means spring has to come!!

 

That is interesting about the inconsistencies of the books. I'll peruse some and see what might work for us. Thanks for the info!!

[Chrysalis Academy]

Ok, I just got Grammar for Middle School, and I think I see the issue: Sentence Composing was written in 1997. Grammar was written in 2006. Grammar is much better - more explanation, fewer repetitions of the same activities, more variety. I don't think using both makes sense, I think Grammar is clearly the better product. So we're going to shelve Sentence Composing, and do the Grammar book. We're going to do it after we go through Grammar Voyage, and I think it will be perfect, adding a lot of practice with verbal phrases, which is the one area dd to practice more.

[Saddlemomma]

From one of the other threads regarding Killgallon, I read that the schedule should go like this:

 

1. Sentence Composing for Middle School
2. Grammar for Middle School
3. Paragraphs for Middle School

I don't know anything about Story Grammar or where it would fit in.

 

I have both #1 & #2.  I had DD do some of #1 the last few weeks of school this year.  She greatly enjoyed it.  I plan to continue with it next year along with Jump In.  DD is non-fiction writing phobic so I though pairing the engaging style of Jump In with continuing #1, which she likes, might get her to enjoy non-fiction writing a little more. Then next year for 7th we could try WWS1 (which I have) and #2 (also on the shelf).

[Chrysalis Academy]

This is an old thread, but I'll chime in to say that we ended up getting rid of Sentence Composing for Middle School and using Grammar for Middle School instead.  Using both would have been redundant for us.  She's not done with the book yet, she has used it sporadically throughout the year - basically, on days when she doesn't have a significant writing-across-the-curriculum assignment going on I've assigned her to do a few exercises.  She does it totally independently.  The good news is that I have definitely noticed an improvement in her writing style! More sentence variety, more use of phrases and interesting constructions.  So it's definitely rubbing off.  Copywork for big kids, kind of . . . anyway, we're putting it aside for the summer and will finish it next year, and I have the Paragraph for Middle School book to do next.  I think we'll just continue using it sporadically as a fill-in/break as we have been, it seems to be working!