Would this offend you?

[UrbanSue]

I received the "case study" below today as part of an invitation to attend a seminar that has the goal of fostering healthy families and good communication between spouses with regard to how to raise their children. The invitation came from a friend and he is likely to follow up with us about whether we plan to attend. Frankly, the below case study (and the follow-up information which I won't publish here for privacy reasons) made us not want to have anything to do with this organization. This doesn't seem to be a set up that is wanting to promote a fair discussion.

 

Am I over-reacting?

 

 

An Afternoon In The Park

 

Mary and Suzy run into each other in the park. Both are young mothers with their daughters, aged

eight and ten months, respectively. While the girls are playing in their strollers, the two friends chat

about their families, the high cost of living, and the latest fashions, but above all they chat about their daughters.

 

Mary: I am so frustrated! My mother-in-law has been watching the baby for me two days a week, so I

can return to my job part-time. I have Abby on a schedule but my mother-in-law does not make any

effort to stick to it on the days she watches her. When I return home from work, the baby is crabby

because she hasn't taken her naps, hasn't eaten at her regular meal times, and hasn't had any time to play on the floor.

 

Suzy: Why does that bother you? I’m sure your mother-in-law gives Abby plenty of love! I don't have

Emily on any schedule. I let her do what she wants whenever I can. So she wants to sleep? Let her

sleep. Is she hungry? Let her eat. The time of day doesn't really matter. And even diaper changes

are no problem with these ultra-absorbent disposables that you can leave on a child for hours without leaking.

 

Mary: I don't know, Suzy, Children are not just show-pieces or part of our image. I feel a strong

responsibility to teach Abby that there's a time and place for everything. I want to train her so she

can grow up to be a happy well-adjusted adult. These early years are crucial in acquiring habits that will last her the rest of her life.

 

Suzy: But you have to realize, Mary, that these days there is no training. The most important thing is

that the child feels your affection and that you spend quality time with her, I'm sure what they say in

books about parenting ls helpful to some people, but I just don't have much use for books. My love

for my daughter makes me give her everything she needs without all the rules. Why should I spend

our time together correcting her and making her cry and be miserable? I want to do whatever I can

to make her a happy girl. Sometimes she cries at night and since I don't need all that much

sleep, I bring her into bed with my husband and me. She’s so happy with her parents!

 

The two women pick the toys off the ground, fetch the pacifier that Suzy‘s daughter let drop, and

give it back to her. Another mother nearby gives a quick spank to an eighteen month-old child,

"Some parents are so unloving to their? Children!" Suzy whispers, as she strokes her daughter.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Setting up a straw man. Prepare to see it taken down in the seminar.

[AK_Mom4]

This sounds like it should be one of those YouTube videos with the two moms with the robot voices trying to one-up each other.

[UrbanSue]

Setting up a straw man. Prepare to see it taken down in the seminar.

 

 

Which is the straw man? And in what way will it be "taken down"? Are they both straw men? Supposed to be caricatured for the purpose of discussion?

[aggieamy]

I wouldn't attend because that exchange sounds silly and contrived. I wouldn't have high hopes to learn anything at the seminar but be annoyed.

[lavender's green]

It sounds stupid and simplistic, but I wouldn't be offended by it. I wouldn't go to the seminar, either.

[elizabeth]

And the proverbial can of worms is opened. This sounds like the Pearl's and their strawman arguments to justify what is defined by law as child abuse. If you LOVE your children you will not indulge their whims(like needing to be picked up when crying and fed on demand and if they try to explore their environment like a normal human child then whack them with a plumbing line) utter hogwash and madness. But then again I do not likely ever run in circles where this would even be part of a lecture series much less would I have friends or acquaintances that would hand me anything for a seminar. But to answer your query ,yes it is offensive and both positions are exaggerated to amount to nothing more than a caricature of how real people are likely more moderate than either of these two "mothers' in such matters. Most people are middle of the road on many topics but the margin dwelling outliers are so vocal...

[maddykate]

It sounds like to me that this is coming to you from someone who doesn't have children or a clue about parenting. I doubt they could share anything that is helpful and I probably wouldn't waste my time going to a seminar they promote.

[Orthodox6]

To some exent, I don't have enough information for making a decision. I have not seen the advertising flyer for the event, which probably would clue me in as to the "slant" of the speaker(s).

 

As for the evidently fictional scenario. . . My honest -- (truly) -- reaction was that this was a made-up discussion between someone (Mary) who believes in the unrealistic rigidity of "Mothers of Their Homes", and someone (Suzy) who will end up as the kind of lackadaisical homeschooler who lets her child evade all unwanted assignments and mouth-off without respect, in order to be a free spirit with "Mom" as her buddy. . . . These two extremes are so incompatible, the speaker may be hoping for some type of middle ground.

 

Anyway, as said in the beginning, I don't have enough info.

 

[EDIT]: Ouch! I did not even think of the Pearls. (aaaurgh ! ! !)

[misty.warden]

Which part was supposed to be offensive (no snark, really asking)?

 

Personally it offended my intelligence that a seminar would set up with two paper-doll mother figures seemingly set up to fight about which parenting style is "better" and to imply that the presentation of this example has something to do with showing couples how to talk about parenting? FWIW, I'd be peeved if my MIL disrespected my parenting style because it's easier for her not to follow my rules.

[UrbanSue]

The follow up information made it pretty clear that the seminar leaders are on Mary's side. And if it were just that, well, I sometimes feel like I could use a few tips on setting boundaries, and establishing more order in my home. But I thought the Suzy character was so overblown as to be offensive. I wondered if I were over-reacting and, actually, this could be read as a perfectly balanced discussion starter.

[UrbanSue]

Which part was supposed to be offensive (no snark, really asking)?

 

Personally it offended my intelligence that a seminar would set up with two paper-doll mother figures seemingly set up to fight about which parenting style is "better" and to imply that the presentation of this example has something to do with showing couples how to talk about parenting? FWIW, I'd be peeved if my MIL disrespected my parenting style because it's easier for her not to follow my rules.

 

 

 

And, yes, it offended my intelligence a bit as well. Because it seemed obvious to me that this type of conversation would NEVER happen. But, again, maybe I was over-reacting?

[OrganicAnn]

Sounds like two extremes. I guess if the idea is to find a good middle ground, then it might be okay. But if they have an agenda they are going to push, then no thank you. I would not waste my time. Also i would want to know more about the person and their credentials before making a decision,

[Caitilin]

Icky and agenda-laden. I'd not attend a seminar whose promoters put out this kind of literature.

[beaners]

Ha! I laughed about the idea of either habit training an eight month old or correcting a ten month old, and I'm the type to expect things way earlier than most consider reasonable. Also, I don't bring my baby into bed with me because I don't need sleep. I do it because it's the only way for me to get any! I won't even get myself started on the rest.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The follow up information made it pretty clear that the seminar leaders are on Mary's side. And if it were just that, well, I sometimes feel like I could use a few tips on setting boundaries, and establishing more order in my home. But I thought the Suzy character was so overblown as to be offensive. I wondered if I were over-reacting and, actually, this could be read as a perfectly balanced discussion starter.

 

 

I figured it was going to be slanted in Mary's favor. There was a lot of emotionally charged language in that stilted exchange. My guess was that it was more on along the lines of Ezzo's teaching.

[Belacqua]

This sounds like it should be one of those YouTube videos with the two moms with the robot voices trying to one-up each other.

 

 

That was the first thing I thought, too. Either that or one of those re-enactments with Lego (the pouting Olympic fencer is still my favorite, but this could contend).

 

Honestly, I'm so turned off by lazy naming it colors my opinion of whatever I'm reading. Mary and Suzy? Really? I had the same response as when I read something about contemporary, hypothetical children named Johnny and Suzie. Makes me think the ideas espoused are equally entrenched in the 1950s. Now, actually naming a modern kid Johnny or Suzie would be hip and pretty fabulous, but too many writers just grab these names as if they hold some kind of iconic power.

 

Topic? I don't think I'd be offended, but I'd certainly be wary.

[Orthodox6]

The follow up information made it pretty clear that the seminar leaders are on Mary's side. And if it were just that, well, I sometimes feel like I could use a few tips on setting boundaries, and establishing more order in my home. But I thought the Suzy character was so overblown as to be offensive. I wondered if I were over-reacting and, actually, this could be read as a perfectly balanced discussion starter.

 

 

 

I did not care for either woman's "style". Suzy sounds chaotic and spineless, whereas Mary sounds priggish. . . . If the program is free, and might include something useful to you go. I don't think it would be worth paying for. (I prefer books for this type of subject!)

[Paige]

It would depend on the person and what I know of him and the presentation. I would not want to attend the seminar because as a mom of older kids, all of that seems irrelevant to me. If I was a younger mother, on the surface I would think it is stupid and annoying. It is obvious that the author has no respect for Suzy. That annoys me. I can't tell if he's making fun of Mary too or not. If I suspected that the author was a fan of Mary, I would be completely turned off. If it was a poorly written example of 2 extremes and the presentation is based on quality material I'd consider going but not enthusiastically. I really doubt I would go at this point in my life even if I had an infant, however, because I am not into the Mommy wars and don't care what anyone else thinks and I'm comfortable with where I am.

[UrbanSue]

So the consensus seem to be that it's not offensive, just unintelligent and unhelpful.

 

The seminar is not free--in fact it's kind of expensive. And. for many reasons, we are definitely not going. I was more looking for how to respond to the friend that invited me. I'm just sort of disturbed that something like this would have been passed on to us as an intelligent, reasonably offering.

[Brenda in FL]

 

I figured it was going to be slanted in Mary's favor. There was a lot of emotionally charged language in that stilted exchange. My guess was that it was more on along the lines of Ezzo's teaching.

 

This was my thought as well. And though I agree the story is ridiculous, I lean more towards Mary's point of view and so I might attend the seminar (in fact - I probably have in the past!) If a parent leans more towards Suzy - then there's no sense in them attending.

 

There are so many flavors of parenting philosophy - but in the end - mom knows best how she should raise her children. Thankfully, there's lot's of support out there for all the different philosophies.

[SproutMamaK]

Ugh, that was so stereotypical and syrupy that I think I lost a few brain cells just READING it. Aside from that.... I would be offended merely by the idea that a friend wanted me to attend a seminar on proper parenting. If I don't ask for your advice on parenting, I'd appreciate you not trying to shove your opinions down my nose (and then trying to charge me for sitting through them).

 

I mean really. Who would be like "Hey, I came up with this idea on how people could parent their children better and thought you could benefit from it! Come and pay me money!" I don't care if I'm 100% in agreement with what they're saying, that's just obnoxious.

[catz]

Ugh, that was so stereotypical and syrupy that I think I lost a few brain cells just READING it. Aside from that.... I would be offended merely by the idea that a friend wanted me to attend a seminar on proper parenting. If I don't ask for your advice on parenting, I'd appreciate you not trying to shove your opinions down my nose (and then trying to charge me for sitting through them).

 

I mean really. Who would be like "Hey, I came up with this idea on how people could parent their children better and thought you could benefit from it! Come and pay me money!" I don't care if I'm 100% in agreement with what they're saying, that's just obnoxious.

 

 

This. Exactly. The tone comes off like some middle grades role play garbage. Ridiculous.

 

And I'm of the school that no one method of parenting and discipline is going to work for every family and child. Some kids crave more structure than others. Some adults require more order than others. The idea that we should all be cookie cutter families raising our kids in the exact same way is absurd.

[Parrothead]

So the consensus seem to be that it's not offensive, just unintelligent and unhelpful.

 

The seminar is not free--in fact it's kind of expensive. And. for many reasons, we are definitely not going. I was more looking for how to respond to the friend that invited me. I'm just sort of disturbed that something like this would have been passed on to us as an intelligent, reasonably offering.

 

Simply respond with, "I'm sorry, but we won't be attending. We have other plans for that day/evening/weekend." Your friend doesn't have to know that your plans are to continue on as you normally would.

[mommaduck]

Ack! This smacks of the Ezzo's!!! Run away, far and fast!

[hillfarm]

When I read it, the first word that came to my mind is smarmy. It seemed like a blatant attempt to manipulate women to have an opinion against liberal child rearing philosophies.

 

To be honest, I am pretty conservative myself when it comes to parenting. However, I completely resent attempts at manipulating me, particularly when they are so obvious and heavy handed. I am a strong, evangelical, fundamentalist Christian and I fully respect the right of other mothers to chose their own path when it comes to parenting.

 

If the person who gave you this information follows up and asks whether you will be attending, I wouldn't have a bit of difficulty telling him no, that this parenting philosophy is not my cup of tea. Better to let this person know now rather than later that you are not interested in legalistic parenting.

[besroma]

My reply would fall somewhere in between hillfarm's and parrothhead's, depending on how the conversation flowed.

 

I know people who strongly believe that the book "Growing Kids God's Way" teaches how to parent God's way. We have friends who are firm with schedules to the point that the the parents become slaves to the schedules. These friends also believe that people who engage in attachment parenting (Dr. Sears) are harming their children as well as idolizing them.

 

While I do not mind telling them that I do not agree with their beliefs, I also do not want to engage them on the topic. For us, politely turning down the free copies of books, offers of advice, etc., and continuing to parent our way made our beliefs clear to them without harming the relationship.

[stansclan89]

I tend to lean more towards a Dr. Sears philosophy in parenting, so I found this somewhat offensive. The language is obviously trying to steer you away from the way I think and insult the way I think. No way I would go. I would just tell your friend that you aren't going to be able to make it. She doesn't need to know why.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

I figured it was going to be slanted in Mary's favor. There was a lot of emotionally charged language in that stilted exchange. My guess was that it was more on along the lines of Ezzo's teaching.

 

 

Agreed. Growing Kids God's Way was my first guess, not the Pearls on this one.

[UrbanSue]

Thanks everyone. It is somewhat reassuring to know that we weren't alone in how we read this.

[Halftime Hope]

For the OP, I'd "eat my hat" (quoting my dear FIL) if you told me that wasn't an advertisement for an E*zo product/service, there are too many hallmarks that remind me of their materials. Again, quoting a dear, wise friend of mine, "the good parts of their materials are not original nor unique to them, and the parts that are original can be dangerous." You can find much better, balanced, healthy materials on parenting elsewhere. (new paragraph) I wouldn't read the invitation as though your friend who invited you was automatically making a value judgment about your family's "need of instruction" or anything like that. I think that is reading too much. However, if the friend is teaching E*zo, know that often times once E*zo is introduced, relationships end badly, because the material tends to produce judgment and an "us vs. them" manner of thinking. (See your case study which, ironically, portrays the "crunchy mama" as the one being judgmental.) If you value your friendship, you may want to think about how to put your cards on the table and have open, proactive discussions with the friend.

[UrbanSue]

For the OP, I'd "eat my hat" (quoting my dear FIL) if you told me that wasn't an advertisement for an E*zo product/service, there are too many hallmarks that remind me of their materials. Again, quoting a dear, wise friend of mine, "the good parts of their materials are not original nor unique to them, and the parts that are original can be dangerous." You can find much better, balanced, healthy materials on parenting elsewhere. (new paragraph) I wouldn't read the invitation as though your friend who invited you was automatically making a value judgment about your family's "need of instruction" or anything like that. I think that is reading too much. However, if the friend is teaching E*zo, know that often times once E*zo is introduced, relationships end badly, because the material tends to produce judgment and an "us vs. them" manner of thinking. (See your case study which, ironically, portrays the "crunchy mama" as the one being judgmental.) If you value your friendship, you may want to think about how to put your cards on the table and have open, proactive discussions with the friend.

 

 

Thanks for this. The friend isn't running the seminar and, honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they hadn't even read this part of the materials before passing it on. But they are heavily involved with the planning and hosting end of things. It's not a dear friend but, bleh, I just hate when this kind of thing comes between a friendship.

 

For the record, I am a big Dr. Sears fan but, really, I'm incredibly moderate (I think!). I like balance and order and all that. And I'm well aware that different families thrive on different models. And I would NEVER go all day without changing a baby's diaper! (That's the part that really got me steamed).

 

I feel reassured that I'm not over-reacting and I will proceed carefully and, I hope, charitably, with this friend.

 

Thanks all.

[Danestress]

No I would not be offended in the least. I don't understand why people are. I wouldn't attend, mind you. I am not big on seminars in any subject, really.

 

But just based on this, it doesn't seem offensive to me. I know women in real life who fall close to either of these positions, and that is fine. It takes all kinds of parents. But if the seminar itself is respectful of perspectives, I don't have any major issues (other than finding endless discussions about mothering boring). So I guess I would need to attend in order to decide if I should be offended. And since I wouldn't want to attend, I would decline and would assume the best about the guy who invited me.

 

 

[KungFuPanda]

It sounds like a man wrote it.

[AnIslandGirl]

I'd write back something along the lines of, "Wow, the Suzy character sounds like such a great Mom! I hope my children know just how much they are loved too." :)

[magnificent_baby]

I wouldn't be offended, but irritated for the solicitation. I have family members that attend seminars free if they get others to sign up. It's likely he has sent this to several people, and not targeting you specifically.

[Impish]

blech.

[Miss Mousie]

If the person who gave you this information follows up and asks whether you will be attending, I wouldn't have a bit of difficulty telling him no, that this parenting philosophy is not my cup of tea. Better to let this person know now rather than later that you are not interested in legalistic parenting.

 

I'm with Hillfarm. When you are declining the invitation, don't dance around the reason, and don't make wishy-washy excuses. "Not my cup of tea" would work beautifully, I think, especially if your friend's take is more "it's something about parenting so I thought, you know, you're a parent, you might like it" as opposed to "OMG I love these people and think everyone should study their every word!"

[Halftime Hope]

And I would NEVER go all day without changing a baby's diaper! (That's the part that really got me steamed).

 

Nitpicking now: the parts in the original "scenario" about the mom going all day without changing the diaper and about her picking up the paci and giving it back to the baby are just off-the-wall. What is the writer trying to accomplish?

[Night Elf]

Well, it made me laugh. Except for the diaper part, which borders on the completely ridiculous, I side with Suzy. That is very indicative of my parenting philosophy. I'd feel like a person walking into that seminar with a target on my rear end. I'd honestly tell the friend that the seminar doesn't sound like something I would enjoy.

[PachiSusan]

I wouldn't be offended but I also would decline to go.

[TravelingChris]

I wasn't against schedules but never had any need for them, either. My kids always seem to have a schedule of their own by the time they were about a month old- what is so magical about having them eat at 10am versus 9am or 11am.?? I really didn't understand the schedule thing and feeding babies at all. I understand that maybe some kids want to eat every thirty minutes or something but then I would probably be going to the doctor and trying to find out why the very frequent eating? My kids like my pets just seemed to want food at regular times without me having anything to do with it.

[Murphy101]

If someone who knows me sent me that, which was foolish of them, and was even more foolish to follow up with me on it instead of respecting my ominous silence - they would not ever repeat their error.

 

It takes a special kind of someone to suggest I need a seminar about how to care for little kids. ;p

[kalanamak]

It wouldn't offend me. Seems rather insipid, but I don't think anyone intended to insult you.

[Murphy101]

The writer is trying to portray mothers who don't get all anal scheduled tight discipline as lazy and stupid. It is insulting.

 

Note there is absolutely nothing mentioned about the actual character of the children. The 8 month old dropped her paci. Guess she's going to hell in a hand basket. *eyeroll*

[bolt.]

I would be offended -- both for myself and others. For myself, since it makes many of the things I believe to be sensible and well founded sound like idiotic claptrap spouted by an idiot... and I am not an idiot... and I learned those things from books... and from scientific study information too.

 

And for others, since it sets people up for the kind of adversarial minding of other people's business that is going to destroy their relationships... and I second that those babies are far to young for any kind of teaching or correction. It's clear that most mommies manage to know their babies and treat them well. Some babies thrive on routine, and *are* crabby if someone won't accommodate their pro-routine preference. Some babies thrive on free-form days. Some babies crave strong physical attachment. Other babies can do with less. Some people believe that it is beneficial to use physical pain to deter misbehavior in children. Other people take that option out of their tool box because they feel corporal punishment is an unnecessary and unkind thing.

 

It is entirely possible to just say that and leave other people to choose among their own options. Nobody's babies are 'show pieces' and it's ridiculous to set people who are only trying to do their best at each other's throats over these things.