scaredy cat phonics reading vs Dancing Bear

[tonygirl]

I need anyone who has used or heard of these programs to give me ALL opinions what you liked disliked how teacher intensive was it complete in instruction things like that.

[RebeccaC]

At one time I owned all the books and tapes. They did not work with my sons because of short term memory problems and due to their language delays and vision problems. My sons had receptive/expressive language delays and this program was not written for that type of LD issues. At one point my oldest son had a 4 year language delay. I bought the program in the mid 90s before I really understood all of my sons LD issues.

 

My boys needed FastForWard, AIT, and vision therapy and after that I used Reading Reflex to teach reading. Both now read at or above grade level. We are still working on writing; sentences, paragraphs and essays, but they are catching up. Scaredy Cat just did not work for us. Joyce is a great lady and I did a consult with her in person in 96 or 97 and she told me she had not ever worked with kids on the spectrum or with expressive receptive language delays.

 

HTH

[tonygirl]

Thank you.

[Ottakee]

Well, I have only used the Dancing Bears. It takes 10-15 minutes a day and is very easy for the teacher to use. The complete program is on line so you can see it from the introduction through the end of the program.

 

I think it is great for drills and getting kids blending. I would though suggest using it along with http://www.iseesam.com for reading practice.

 

I use these together and then add in the Apples and Pears spelling which is really great.

[chiguirre]

Ottakee, could you post a link to the Dancing Bears online? I googled it and got Sound Foundations, but I couldn't find any samples.

 

Also, when did you start Dancing Bears in conjunction with I See Sam?

 

Thank you!

[MNClaire]

I bought Scaredy Cat thinking that it would help my ADHD son learn to read. I saw Joyce Herzog at our homeschool convention, and her system made sense so I bought it. I hadn't done any reading research before that, and it ended up being more of an impulse purchase. First of all, I found it was WAY too busy and convoluted. I'm not sure if they have changed the program, but when I bought it, a kit was $50 and you had to buy four of them to complete the program.

 

My child may have problems paying attention, but he didn't have trouble learning to read. We used SWB's Ordinary Parent's Guide to Teaching Reading. Simple and idiot-proof. He is eight years old and right now is laying on the floor reading an adult science book about space.

 

HTH's!

[Ottakee]

http://www.soundfoundationsbooks.co.uk/ Then click on the US flag and you should see the books listed on the side. Then you can click by each book to see the entire program in PDF format.

 

My IDEAL would be:

I See Sam sets 1 and 2

Then start Dancing Bears A (or Bear Necessities if the child is really struggling)

After set 4 of the I See Sam Books (also called ARI 2) I would start Apples and Pears Spelling.

 

You then continue through the I See Sam books--at least the first 6 sets, some kids never need the last 2 sets. Go through the Dancing Bears program as well. Do the Apples and Pears program as well.

 

Likely you would finish the I See Sam books while still doing the other 2, then finish up the Dancing Bears and only have the Apples and Pears left.

[chiguirre]

Thanks Ottakee!

 

So I'd do I See Sam 1 and 2

 

-then start Dancing Bears A with ISS 3 and 4

 

-then continue with Dancing Bears, ISS and add in Apples and Pears?

 

Did you use DBA or Bear Necessities? A&P A seems to be at the same level as DBA from what I could tell. Do they go together well or does A&P assume you've done DB?

 

Thanks for all your help. Ds1 is enjoying I See Sam and seems to be happy about working with me. This is a huge change from even a few months ago so I'd like to capitalize on it. I can get him to do about 10 minutes in the morning and 10 minutes at night everyday. How long does the average lesson take with DB and A&P? Could I break them down into 10 minute chunks (maybe moving to 15 or 20 minutes eventually)?

[Ottakee]

Well, that is what I did (am doing).

 

My 11dd did Fast Track (which is like Dancing Bears A and B in one book). 12dd did Bear Necessities A and is now on the B level. We didn't do things in EXACTLY the order listed below as when I started all of this, they didn't have Bear Necessities as this is a newer program.

 

You can always email Hilsie (the author of these programs) and see what she says.

 

How is your child doing with the I See Sam books? If they are moving along nicely, then reg. Dancing Bears would likely be OK. If they are really struggling or needing more review then you might want to look at Bear Necessities. The nice thing is that you can see each of these online and even have your child try a few pages of each and see what is the better fit.

 

You could do Dancing Bears and Apples and Pears together but my kids seemed to do better when they were reading a bit better before starting A&P--then again they have handwriting delays (mild CP) and I didn't want to push that too much, too early.

 

Dancing Bears can be done in 5-10 minutes a day. Even if you only do 1 page a day, you will still be making nice progress. If you can do more, great.

 

We often do 1/2 level of A&P a day which takes 5-10 minutes, sometimes a bit more. Again our progress is not quite as fast but we are making steady gains every day.

 

Hilsie (the lady that wrote A&P, Dancing Bears, etc) likes to see a kid be successful for 10-15 minutes a day rather than struggle and not learn for 60 minutes a day. For kids that really struggle, slow and steady wins the race.

[tonygirl]

Ottakee

Is the DB a full teaching reading program? I noticed you said it was good for drills. Are ISeeSam books just

little books to read not a way of teaching reading. Sorry for the dumb questions but I have looked at the site and just haven't figures it all out.

Am I just to have dd read the 1st 2 set of ISeeSam books then start DBa? I am very interested in the program I just want to understand how to implement it. I have some veteran HS's that say 10-15 min a day will not work and my dd will never get anywhere in a yr.

Her dc of different sp needs FAS then my dd. She feels we should do phonincs Scaredy cat vowels then more right away to words level if it's not learned then the next yr do saxon phonics intervention and sooner or later they will get it. Just keep them moving.

I just feel that something "different" should be tried. Ok done whinning and ranting.

[chiguirre]

Thanks for the extra input Ottakee. That really helped me decide what to do. Ds is doing well with I See Sam 1 and can generally read a book with expression and no more than 3 (self-corrected) errors after 2 or 3 readings. His expression probably wouldn't pass muster with someone else, but it's about as good as his regular spoken expression which is poor. He doesn't have great handwriting, but he is capable/comfortable with writing a short sentence so I think I'll get A&P A to go along with DB A. I'm usually a "more is more" kind of gal, but I don't want to drive ds up a wall with Bear Necessities. I'm glad to hear that it's no problem to do just 5-10 minutes at a time. We can do that. Ds might like to work at our school table since he sees me working with his sibs and I think he wants to participate too.

 

Tonygirl, 10-15 minutes doesn't seem like much, but it does add up. That's all I did in any subject when my hsed ds was in K and he did learn to read. I still limit his read-aloud time to about 15 minutes so he doesn't get frustrated. In fact, that's the way most first grade programs break down their reading assignments so that the student doesn't burn out. You can do 10 minutes of phonics drill or spelling at a different time.

[Ottakee]

DB can be used as a full reading program but I like the I See Sam books so that the child is reading BOOKS---big motivating thing here.

 

You can use the I See Sam books all alone and then just add in the Apples and Pears Spelling after set 3 or so.

 

Using DB with the I See Sam books just gives more practice and variety--you could do the DB drill for 5-10 minutes at one time and then later in the day (or earlier) do the Sam books.

 

I think you will get far. You might not get there very fast with a special needs child but you will get there. My 12dd is now reading short chapter books. It has taken us several years to get to this point, but the daily 10-15 minutes 1-2 times a day has really paid off. Obviously if your child can do 15 minutes twice a day, great, if not, 5-10 minutes of real good work is better than 45 minutes of frustration and doing work that doesn't make sense to them.

 

I found that many other phonics programs teach the short a sound and then suddenly expect the child to apply that sound to ALL short a words. Well, here that didn't happen. My girls needed more time to process that and apply it. The I See Sam books move slow enough so that they can apply what they know to just a few new words, not 10 or more per story that they might not see again for weeks.

[Ottakee]

DB will move a little more slowly by only doing 5 minutes a day but I think you will gain valuable skills in that time. It might take you longer but that is OK.

 

My 12dd's last IQ test came out at 38. She should NOT be able to read yet she is starting to read short chapter books. We still have a long ways to go but if she can get some basic reading skills down, that would be great.

[tonygirl]

Ottakee,

 

If you don't mind then I would like to run by you my plan:001_huh:

 

I will get the ISeeSam books (1st 3 sets) for reading (not sure if it will work for comprehension) Also do either of these programs help kids who only memorize words instead of read them? I really want dd to be able to sound out unfamiliar words instead of only reading the ones she has memorized.

I will also get DBa for phonics and Apples and Pears for spelling.:) (when should a person start to combine all 3 of these things together for a school day? I assume these should be taught and worked on daily.

 

Are the ISeeSam books just for reading practice after you know the

sounds or do they teach reading?

Thanks Teresa

[Ottakee]

The books are VERY good for comprehension as well. The sets from Roads to Everywhere have comprehension questions in them as well. You can discuss the pictures, the why did they ............., etc. Very easy to do with the books.

 

On the memorizing, check out the introduction sections to the Dancing Bears program where they discuss the CURSOR. This is a KEY element to their program and very helpful for the I See Sam books too. It is basically a notched 3x5 card that you move from left to right so the child has to blend the sounds to read the word. So, if the word is sat, you show the s, child says /s/, you show the a and child says /a/ and then you show the t and they say /t/---done slowly at first so they get the concept of blending but then later you do this fluently so they read the words at a normal speed. This way they have to pay attention as the word could be sat, sam, sad, sap, sacks, etc.---they can just guess from the first 2 letters.

 

I would start with the First set of Sam books, then start Dancing Bears (or you could start them at the same time) and then after set 4 of the Sam books, start the Apples and Pears spelling. I do it this way as my kids have a lot more confidence with the spelling once they can read better. I am sure you could start it slowly earlier if you wanted.

 

My 11dd is done with the Sam books but does 1-2 pages of Fast Track a day (she got started on this late but likes it so we keep going) and then does 1/2 level of Apples and Pears spelling a day (almost done with book B).

 

My 12dd will re-read set 5 (ARI 3) of the Sam books this fall, do 1-2 pages of the Bear Necessities book B and then start Apples and Pears spelling--doing 1 page to 1/2 level per day. She has severe trouble with writing so we aren't pushing that a great deal.

 

My girls aren't on my "ideal" schedule as we found the DB and A&P stuff later and the Bear Necessities is a newer program.

 

Feel free to modify it though for your kids. If they don't have much trouble with writing they can do more with the A&P. They can cruise through the I See Sam books at the rate of 1-2 a day at first or much slower if needed.

 

The KEY with the Sam books is not to move to set 3 until they can read the 1st 2 sets fluently without having to sound out many words. Going too fast just really sets you back in the long run.

 

And, as weird as it seems, the 1st set of books is the HARDEST and it does get easier as you go.

[tonygirl]

Ottakee,

 

Thank you once again you have been such a BIG HELP with this. HW for my dd is very difficult and so slow do you think doing the Apples and Pears orally or using letter tiles some of the time would still be as beneficial as writing?

Also as far as DB is it safe to start DBa if she can read some even if most of it is memorized?

Are all these programs broke up into lessons or do you just do as much for yr time lot?

I am going to order but have not decided if I want to just order one book 1st or do the pkg deals for the programs.

I also wanted to know if it confuses the kids if you had supplements such as games or cut n paste phonics books things like that. I was just wondering for a little variety sometimes.

 

I was also going to ask what you use or have used for math. I know you responded to that thread but I can't find it. I am really thinking of trying MCP math I just need to decide on the rt level to start at. Teresa

[Ottakee]

On the Apples and Pears, you can reduce some of the writing easily and do some orally. Some exercises have the child trace the sounds/words, then copy them and then write them from memory--you could pick 1 or 2 of these to do with writing and then the other orally or with tiles. I also modify things and do only 1/2 of a level a day with my 11dd and likely will do only 1 page a day with my 12dd. If she can do more, we will do 1/2 level then but I would rather make good progess with minimal frustration (where she shuts down) than to push things and stop our progress.

 

I would do Dancing Bears A but make sure to use the cursor as they direct and NOT give her tick marks or allow her to move on too fast. It is tempting to allow a few extra mistakes but like the instructions say, it really does hurt them later one.

 

Dancing Bears is mostly 1 activity per day and each activity is only 1 page. Some days you might be able to do just 1 page (or even 1/2 page if it is a tougher drill page) where other days she might be able to do 2 pages when it is filling in the blanks or a story. I just strive for 5-10 minutes for Dancing Bears.

 

Sorry I can't help you with the package vs. 1 at a time thing. I got mine one at a time and then when Hilsie was visiting the states last year she brought me some samples of some books as well.

 

Math, I WISH there was a Dancing Bears or I See Sam for math. My 11dd is doing pretty good with ACE paces for math. She will be in the 4th grade ones in the fall. I do cut back on the number of problems she does each day---like if she gets the first 15 right she can skip the last 10, etc.

 

My 12dd has been SO hard with math. We tried Math U See, Right Start, Rod and Staff, Touch Math, ACE, and others. NOTHING really worked for her. Over the summer she is showing much more skill in math--doing some adding and subtracting, etc. I bought the 1st grade ACE paces she had done to review and will go from there. Honestly, I don't know what will work, if anything, for her.

[tonygirl]

OK,

Thank you again I am going to order I will check out the return policy. These programs don't sound to difficult for me to teach. The way I am understanding is the TE lays it all out for you I need and like that.

Math as been awful here to the ones that should of worked have not but I have only tried a few.

Thank you again for all yr time and help you may hear from again in the fall if you don't mind

Oh ya what was yr thought on adding some games or cut n paste phonics books for some variety?

I don't want to confuse her but she has been working on cutting n pasting in OT so I thought I could give her extra practice and do some academics with it. Do these programs have suggestion for games and such, I would want to make sure whatever we were doing game or otherwise was the same concept she would be learning in the other programs so as not to confuse her. Have you yourself had any luck with games?

Teresa

[Ottakee]

The programs are VERY easy to teach. Make sure you join the yahoo group for the I See Sam books (called Beginning Reading Instruction). There is a wealth of information there. The Apples and Bears is scripted so you just read from the teacher's book.

 

Sorry I can't be more help with math. The BEST thing we did for math was let 12dd get a "job" scooping poop where we board our horses. She gets $1/week but has learned to count money, figure out how many days to pay day, how much more money she needs, etc. This fall we will see if it carries over to her math books though.

 

 

Honestly, we never did many games/activities. I just didn't have the time/desire for them. I would hold off at least a bit as many of them would have sounds/combinations she wouldn't have covered yet in the other programs.

[tonygirl]

The programs are VERY easy to teach. Make sure you join the yahoo group for the I See Sam books (called Beginning Reading Instruction). There is a wealth of information there. The Apples and Bears is scripted so you just read from the teacher's book.

 

Sorry I can't be more help with math. The BEST thing we did for math was let 12dd get a "job" scooping poop where we board our horses. She gets $1/week but has learned to count money, figure out how many days to pay day, how much more money she needs, etc. This fall we will see if it carries over to her math books though.

 

 

Honestly, we never did many games/activities. I just didn't have the time/desire for them. I would hold off at least a bit as many of them would have sounds/combinations she wouldn't have covered yet in the other programs.

 

Thank you so much. I am going to give it a try

Teresa