Fathers disappear from households across America-article

[treestarfae]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/25/fathers-disappear-from-households-across-america/

[mom31257]

Thanks for sharing the article. My dh and I have been discussing this issue and how it seems no one is talking about it. We think it is because society doesn't want it to seem that women alone aren't enough (since many children are in single parent households where the mom is the parent). We also think getting married should be harder to do, such as having required counseling, waiting periods between license and ceremony, etc.. If it were a more challenging process, there might be fewer divorces.

[MedicMom]

Most of these children, however, were born to never-married parents. It crosses racial and class lines. My cousin, who grew up in a two parent, lower middle class family, has two children by two different men, who are both in prison. I can't wrap my mind around it, but it comes down to different ways that we view life and we value different things.

[mommymilkies]

It is sad. I did not know my father until I was 24 and my ex has seen our two kids together only...3 times in 7 years? And those were not his wishes, but his mother's invitation. It is terrible. Honestly, I really think they should have male birth control readily available. It takes two to tango. Unfortunately many of those parties (1/3 of dads according to the article) decide they don't want to be a parent until after the fact. And child support is laughable. Unenforced many places, and even then, they don't get to see the parent. PLEASE don't judge against those of us with children from more than one set of parents, though, MedicMom. It doesn't mean I don't value the same things...whatever that means. It just means some people are idiots and decide to leave. It's happened in more than just the past few decades. Heck, think of 16th century England and how many marriages were forced when someone found out about an out of wedlock baby. So they'd lock the wife away in the country to almost never be seen again so they could go on philandering. It's not new. People change, circumstances change. That's life.

[MedicMom]

I wasn't judging you or speaking of women who become parents with reasonable beliefs that the dad is sticking around. I see a lot of girls/women choose to have relationships with guys they KNOW are going to be deadbeats. My cousin, for instance, valued having a baby at seventeen because her best friend was(her own admission) with whoemever was available rather than wait for a solid, long term relationship. Baby #2 was because she wanted to keep boyfriend around, and that worked until he was arrested again and sent to prison for a few years. I see this in a lot of girls. They value something such as keeping a boyfriend or not wanting to bother with birh control more than waiting until a committed relationship to have a baby. I waited until marriage to get pregnant. This is a totally different scenario than having a baby in a committed relationship and dad changes his mind.

Again, in the article, the vast majority of parents mentioned had never been married.

[SKL]

I wish we could figure out how to stop all the out-of-wedlock procreating among young people in the first place. That's the real problem, and the one few people are willing to admit. Is anyone trying to help these youngsters view themselves as people with a future worth preserving? Or have we set up the system to appear, in the short run, beneficial to those who embark on parenthood too soon?

 

My kids don't have a dad, by the way, and never have and probably never will. That's not the crux of the issue. I chose to become their mom when I was old enough to "know better." I have the means and the maturity to give them a good upbringing. I have a loving support structure in case a time comes when I can't do it all.

 

I'm not convinced that it's better for kids to have their dads around without regard for what kind of support/influence they'd get from that relationship. Frankly, where the dads are very messed up themselves, I'd rather see single moms share housing with each other, to ease finances and provide more of a support system.

[KungFuPanda]

How many good people/parents wouldn't be here if their own parents were screened out of the gene pool? Would the world be better off without them?

[BarbecueMom]

How many good people/parents wouldn't be here if their own parents were screened out of the gene pool? Would the world be better off without them?

 

Ooh me! Well, I don't know about good, but I'm here! And honestly, when I look back on my childhood, your second question is one I've given a lot of thought to. Not from a depressed "woe-is-me" standpoint, but from my own thoughts on unplanned pregnancies and options and the struggle of raising an "oops" alone.

 

I really wish my mother had been honest with me and said, "Getting pregnant with you was a mistake, but we're making the best of it." Instead I heard a lot of, "You were the best thing that could have ever happened to me!" It's not entirely true, and it added another layer of confusion on the formation of my views on relationships and parenting.

 

ETA: The beginning of the second paragraph sounded odd. I meant something like, "The actions that led to getting pregnant were a mistake..." not that my entire existance is various levels of wrong.

[mommymilkies]

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[Murphy101]

Meh. Almost all the single families I know are the result of the woman leaving or not wanting to commit, not the man. In most of them, the father very much wanted to be married and a fully involved and the woman doesn't want him in the picture and blocks or makes it miserable for him to do it.

 

Out of the many I know of, only maybe 3 were the men deadbeats. And of those three, 2 of the men eventually gave up after years of trying and failing to form a relationship.

 

I wish people would talk more about the man side of things instead of presuming they are deadbeats when all of the power and decisions are usually the woman's.

 

May not be a popular or PC opinion and I readily admit there are turdy guys out there. But from my limited, like everyone's I suppose, IRL experience, the problem is NOT that most men are deadbeat jerks.

[beaners]

I just did a very unscientific survey of my friends on Facebook. I have 20 friends who have children or are pregnant where the parents are still together. Some of those are married, the majority are still boyfriend/girlfriend, and more than I expected are having public issues with their relationship. I have 9 friends with children where the parents are not together. Some of those are dating new people, some aren't.

 

Now this is going to be skewed heavily by both the fact that none of those people have a child over 6, and the fact that most people I know on Facebook are still in the "settling down", pre-family mindset. So the numbers within my group of friends would probably look very different a decade from now. Interesting though. I know that one third of my Kindergarten class did not come from a single parent household.

[mommymilkies]

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[BarbecueMom]

 

I would never tell my kids they were mistakes. They aren't. I really truly believe they were the greatest things to ever happen to me, even if I didn't plan them out. I worked in infertility and I will tell you it's really hard to plan a baby. :laugh: They have their own plans! I think there's a difference between "mistake" and "unexpected".

 

I know, I had to edit because I realized it sounded bad, whoops!

 

But my parents never even dated, they were "people that knew each other" which is quite different from even a dating relationship falling apart. I don't really believe in fate or anything, so the idea that any unexpected pregnancy was meant to happen, regardless how wrong the circumstances between the parents are, sits wrong with me. Especially since the first day I ever lived in a two-parent household was the day I brought my oldest son home from the hospital.

[TravelingChris]

IF anyone is interested in this problem, read Coming Apart, the State of White America 1960-2010 by Charles A Murray. It is a frightening look at the growing chasm between the educated haves and the uneducated have nots. The chasm isn't just educational or economic but lifestyle, morality, health, etc, etc, etc.

[beaners]

Wow, another interesting thing I just realized within my own circle of friends after reading the article. Not a single black family is together, although one bi-racial family has parents still dating. That's kind of uncomfortable to say. All of these women have at least a couple years of college education, if not a degree, so it isn't a lack of education in my own circle.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Meh. Almost all the single families I know are the result of the woman leaving or not wanting to commit, not the man. In most of them, the father very much wanted to be married and a fully involved and the woman doesn't want him in the picture and blocks or makes it miserable for him to do it.

 

Out of the many I know of, only maybe 3 were the men deadbeats. And of those three, 2 of the men eventually gave up after years of trying and failing to form a relationship.

 

I wish people would talk more about the man side of things instead of presuming they are deadbeats when all of the power and decisions are usually the woman's.

 

May not be a popular or PC opinion and I readily admit there are turdy guys out there. But from my limited, like everyone's I suppose, IRL experience, the problem is NOT that most men are deadbeat jerks.

 

 

We must be in very different circles or areas.

 

When my ds was little, i nearly begged his father to take him. He was always "too tired" or "not in the mood." The only reason ds ever went his father's house was because he was dating a friend of mine and that friend would help and pick up ds. They broke up when ds was 18 months old and he has not seen him regularly since then. We lived in the same county until the summer of 2010. He had to drive through my town to get to work and get home from work, but NEVER stopped by to see ds.

 

Yes, i left him, but he never tried making it work.

 

There is a guy around here who has 5 children with 5 different women (maybe 4 women). All of these woman would drop everything to be with him. He could not care less about his kids.

 

When i was in high school, a teen parenting school, the most common theme was the guy leaving soon after pregnancy or birth.

[I.Dup.]

That's very sad. I would hate to be a single mom, although I have the utmost respect for single moms.

 

Dh and I married very young and he was your typical selfish young dude. ALL of my friends encouraged me to leave him. Some even stopped being friends with me because I didn't. But there was no way I wanted to be a single mom. They treated it all like it was no big deal but I knew it would be.

[Murphy101]

Wow, another interesting thing I just realized within my own circle of friends after reading the article. Not a single black family is together, although one bi-racial family has parents still dating. That's kind of uncomfortable to say. All of these women have at least a couple years of college education, if not a degree, so it isn't a lack of education in my own circle.

 

 

It's not a question of education or income in my circles either. Some are actually very well educated and have very good incomes. That doesn't seem to make any difference. Well, if anything, the better the income and education the LESS likely they are to stay together because they can certainly afford to walk away. Whereas I know many couples that openly admit they are only together because they can't afford to live separate or divorce. None of that seems to be the big factor in the men being involved either.

[beaners]

Meh. Almost all the single families I know are the result of the woman leaving or not wanting to commit, not the man. In most of them, the father very much wanted to be married and a fully involved and the woman doesn't want him in the picture and blocks or makes it miserable for him to do it.

 

Out of the many I know of, only maybe 3 were the men deadbeats. And of those three, 2 of the men eventually gave up after years of trying and failing to form a relationship.

 

I wish people would talk more about the man side of things instead of presuming they are deadbeats when all of the power and decisions are usually the woman's.

 

May not be a popular or PC opinion and I readily admit there are turdy guys out there. But from my limited, like everyone's I suppose, IRL experience, the problem is NOT that most men are deadbeat jerks.

 

 

I know women who had abortions rather than start a family with their boyfriends, but they obviously aren't raising single-parent families.

 

I only know of one mother who was a deadbeat, and my male friend (the father) is raising their child.

 

In the other cases, it was not that the father wanted to be married and the mother blocked his every offer. Quite the opposite. In fact, one of the couples I know that is still dating now broke up for a while when their daughter was only a couple months old because the father stopped coming by to see the daughter. They're back together now, but he seems barely there at best. I'm not 100% sure they live together. He has another child with a different woman also. There are a few others like that where they are together for now, but I won't be surprised if they split up soon. The ones that are already split up are pretty similar stories with a few different twists here and there.

[mom31257]

Okay, I'm going to add some thoughts here that others may not like, but I really am concerned for our society as a whole and don't think I have all the answers. Be kind!

 

Our society has been so focused on making females the equal of males, that I believe it has almost made men feel not really necessary. Women don't financially "need" men anymore because so many work. The workforce increased so much with women going to work, yet are there almost twice as many jobs as there were when primarily men worked? Men are having to compete with women for jobs, and honestly, women will be hired before men sometimes so that the company won't be accused of discriminating or can say they are "diverse".

 

When men don't have purpose or direction, I don't think there can ever be a good ending. I believe it is how they function. Women have become so critical of men. So many commercials make the woman look smart and the man dumb. Why would a man want to stay around where he's being put down, not needed, or neglected? I will say I can't see how your kids aren't enough to want to stay. My dh and I have talked about that, too. We've said even if we hated each other we both wouldn't want to be away from the kids, so we'd stay together. Thankfully, we don't!

[kewb]

 

Our society has been so focused on making females the equal of males, that I believe it has almost made men feel not really necessary. Women don't financially "need" men anymore because so many work. The workforce increased so much with women going to work, yet are there almost twice as many jobs as there were when primarily men worked? Men are having to compete with women for jobs, and honestly, women will be hired before men sometimes so that the company won't be accused of discriminating or can say they are "diverse".

 

When men don't have purpose or direction, I don't think there can ever be a good ending. I believe it is how they function. Women have become so critical of men. So many commercials make the woman look smart and the man dumb. Why would a man want to stay around where he's being put down, not needed, or neglected? I will say I can't see how your kids aren't enough to want to stay. My dh and I have talked about that, too. We've said even if we hated each other we both wouldn't want to be away from the kids, so we'd stay together. Thankfully, we don't!

 

I don't think society has focused on making females the equals of males so much as making sure females have equal access. However, I agree that there are many male issues that have arisen from this. Man bashing and being shown as incompetant in tv shows and commercials is a definite factor. I believe there does need to be some focus on the males roles in the family and society.

[MedicMom]

 

 

We must be in very different circles or areas.

 

When my ds was little, i nearly begged his father to take him. He was always "too tired" or "not in the mood." The only reason ds ever went his father's house was because he was dating a friend of mine and that friend would help and pick up ds. They broke up when ds was 18 months old and he has not seen him regularly since then. We lived in the same county until the summer of 2010. He had to drive through my town to get to work and get home from work, but NEVER stopped by to see ds.

 

Yes, i left him, but he never tried making it work.

 

There is a guy around here who has 5 children with 5 different women (maybe 4 women). All of these woman would drop everything to be with him. He could not care less about his kids.

 

When i was in high school, a teen parenting school, the most common theme was the guy leaving soon after pregnancy or birth.

 

This really seems to be more my experience. I will fully admit though to not knowing too many people who are single parents. Not everyone is married but most are living together with the intention of marriage. I do know a few people who are divorced and remarried, but stepdad is active in raising the kids. I suspect this is mostly due to my socio economic setting more than anything however. The ones I knew who got pregnant in high school and early college, without fail, have since been abandoned by the father.

[DarlaS]

Thanks for sharing the article. My dh and I have been discussing this issue and how it seems no one is talking about it. We think it is because society doesn't want it to seem that women alone aren't enough (since many children are in single parent households where the mom is the parent). We also think getting married should be harder to do, such as having required counseling, waiting periods between license and ceremony, etc.. If it were a more challenging process, there might be fewer divorces.

 

Or more people simply cohabiting...

[kalanamak]

 

 

Our society has been so focused on making females the equal of males, that I believe it has almost made men feel not really necessary.

 

Any evidence for this?

[butterflymommy]

If it were a more challenging process, there might be fewer divorces.

 

Fatherless households aren't caused by divorce, at least not among black families (which this article says are impacted the most-- at nearly 90% fatherless households for those in poverty). It's caused by the never-marrieds or never-even-committeds. So it would be a bad idea to make marriage harder because in these segments of the population (and I would include poor whites with low education levels in this) it would put the marriage rate at near zero.

 

Having lived for many years in neighborhoods with high poverty and single mother households I don't see "fatherhood initiatives" making any difference... the horse is out of the stable so to speak.... there's no real turning back at this point. Our society will become all the more fragmented because (and I'm not sure if the article mentioned this-- I read quickly) the marriage and in-wedlock birthrate has remained stable in the affluent & educated segments of society while the rest of the population increasingly sees single mother households and out of wedlock birth as the norm.

[mommymilkies]

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[butterflymommy]

How many good people/parents wouldn't be here if their own parents were screened out of the gene pool? Would the world be better off without them?

 

Excellent point! I have one grandparent who definitely would have been screened out (he was a married, but absent, father) and I personally would have been screened out; yet I have seven gorgeous kids.

 

As far as child support being unenforced-- I don't know if anyone here follows the 11onmyown blog (she may even be a member here, she homeschooled her kids) but she has an absolutely orwellian tale of being abandoned by her husband who managed to weasel out of child support despite making, at times, 6 figures. It's just mind boggling how a man could act that way.

[SKL]

I think we may be giving too much importance to the fact of the absence of the dads as opposed to the correlating factors, i.e., low education, low self-esteem, early sexuality, low income, etc. Interposing the guy who irresponsibly created this child into his life when he isn't already interested is really going to accomplish . . . what?

 

And I'm sorry, but I do not worry about the downfall of men due to the fact that they now have to compete with women in the workplace. Or because women don't need them for their earning potential (as much as they used to). There is nothing new about women contributing to the material well-being of the family. If anything, the idea of chaining a man to that constant role is more novel.

[beaners]

 

I['m thinking a lot of this conversation is really dependent on where you live, how old you are, and socioeconomic status. I grew up in Inner City Cincy and most of my friends were not white. I only remember one of those families being one-parent. I was a total freak. lol And then when we moved to a rural area with a college, there were fewer minorities, but ALL of my black friends in school had a two parent household. And I only know, personally, one family where the mom left, but my mom also left my brothers (partly her choice-long story) after I moved out and they were raised by their father (my step-father). So really it's all so different depending on who you talk to!

 

I think a lot of the reason that my numbers are so skewed is because most of my friends are just starting to settle down. I'm sure I have many friends who will have kids in a two-parent household, but they are either not pregnant yet, or even not in a serious relationship yet. In my circle, if you have children, you either got started young, or had an unplanned pregnancy. My parents divorced when I was in late elementary school. I don't have any friends with children that old yet.

[SKL]

That's very sad. I would hate to be a single mom, although I have the utmost respect for single moms.

 

Dh and I married very young and he was your typical selfish young dude. ALL of my friends encouraged me to leave him. Some even stopped being friends with me because I didn't. But there was no way I wanted to be a single mom. They treated it all like it was no big deal but I knew it would be.

 

Parenting singly isn't bad per se. The pros and cons tend to even out (no need to work on marriage issues etc.). I'm a single mom, and I've never "hated" it, but then, it was my choice.

 

I think being single and sharing parenthood with a difficult ex, or being a single and poor mom, or generally having huge regrets, are what makes single parenthood such a scary thought.

[Melinda in VT]

Our society has been so focused on making females the equal of males, that I believe it has almost made men feel not really necessary. Women don't financially "need" men anymore because so many work. The workforce increased so much with women going to work, yet are there almost twice as many jobs as there were when primarily men worked? Men are having to compete with women for jobs, and honestly, women will be hired before men sometimes so that the company won't be accused of discriminating or can say they are "diverse".

 

If this is true, that men feel like they aren't necessary because women aren't as financially dependent on them, then I think the problem is not that women have increased financial power, I think the problem is that previously men thought their value was only in their earning potential. Society needs both men and women to see value in parenting.

 

I am grateful that as my husband and I build and lead our family, we can take advantage of many ways of providing for our financial needs, just as we have a variety of ways of dividing up other parenting and familial responsibilities.

 

Likewise, at work, I am thankful to work with many talented men and women.

 

When men don't have purpose or direction, I don't think there can ever be a good ending. I believe it is how they function. Women have become so critical of men. So many commercials make the woman look smart and the man dumb. Why would a man want to stay around where he's being put down, not needed, or neglected? I will say I can't see how your kids aren't enough to want to stay. My dh and I have talked about that, too. We've said even if we hated each other we both wouldn't want to be away from the kids, so we'd stay together. Thankfully, we don't!

 

I agree with you 100% about the Dumb Dad commercials. Those have got to go.

[SKL]

 

I agree with you 100% about the Dumb Dad commercials. Those have got to go.

 

Of course we could just decline to watch the type of TV programing and chick flicks that contain that kind of stereotype.

 

But on the other hand, we women lived through seeing thousands of ridiculous commercials etc. about the stupidity and frivolity of women. They are still out there, too. Just recently I saw one of those "white shiny counters excite me" commercials. Thank goodness I hardly ever have the TV on.

[KungFuPanda]

Okay, I'm going to add some thoughts here that others may not like, but I really am concerned for our society as a whole and don't think I have all the answers. Be kind!

Our society has been so focused on making females the equal of males, that I believe it has almost made men feel not really necessary. Women don't financially "need" men anymore because so many work. The workforce increased so much with women going to work, yet are there almost twice as many jobs as there were when primarily men worked? Men are having to compete with women for jobs, and honestly, women will be hired before men sometimes so that the company won't be accused of discriminating or can say they are "diverse".

When men don't have purpose or direction, I don't think there can ever be a good ending. I believe it is how they function. Women have become so critical of men. So many commercials make the woman look smart and the man dumb. Why would a man want to stay around where he's being put down, not needed, or neglected? I will say I can't see how your kids aren't enough to want to stay. My dh and I have talked about that, too. We've said even if we hated each other we both wouldn't want to be away from the kids, so we'd stay together. Thankfully, we don't!

 

Men will always have excuses for their bad behavior. Sometimes women even provide excuses for them.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I see a lot of girls/women choose to have relationships with guys they KNOW are going to be deadbeats. They value something such as keeping a boyfriend or not wanting to bother with birh control more than waiting until a committed relationship to have a baby.

 

I agree and would add other reasons as well. Our area (small town midwest) is an example. We have the highest teen/unwed pregnancy rate in the state. I personally know more than 20 young women who are single mothers. Each of these women is under the age of 23.

 

The list of reasons for being a single mom varies considerably but, yes, some of the women chose to have babies with deadbeat baby daddy's because there was some gain in it for them, whether the gain was real (parent's bought her a house so she could live on her own) or imagined (he'll come back to me if I have his baby). For others, my DD included, the father left her during the pregnancy citing 'not ready to be a father' as the reason for leaving.

 

There are young men in the area with multiple baby's with multiple women. I don't know how common it is but I can tell you that it is a reality in our town and not just something to be viewed on Jerry Springer. What I don't understand is why these young women find these guys attractive. Why would a deadbeat dad with two babies from two different women treat you any differently because you became pregnant with his baby? The baby drama around here is out-of-control.

 

The issue of single parent families definitely breaks SES barriers. The majority of the young women I know who have found themselves as single moms all came from two-parent, middle class homes. These are girls who were good students, community volunteers and productive workers. All of them are caucasian. Many of them profess to be Christian.

[mommymilkies]

...

There are young men in the area with multiple baby's with multiple women. I don't know how common it is but I can tell you that it is a reality in our town and not just something to be viewed on Jerry Springer. What I don't understand is why these young women find these guys attractive. Why would a deadbeat dad with two babies from two different women treat you any differently because you became pregnant with his baby? The baby drama around here is out-of-control.

 

...

Sometimes the men lie. I once dated a guy who professed to be a loving single dad and all of the horrors he went through to see his son. Yeah....then his brother AND ex told me the truth. My ex likes to buy rounds for people at bars (and refuse to pay cs) and tell everyone what a great father he is. :glare: I know this because my best friend goes to the same bar. lol

[kalanamak]

Men will always have excuses for their bad behavior. Sometimes women even provide excuses for them.

 

If I were to lean on a social theory for this, it wouldn't be "unneeded men", but unneeded children. If a society if affluent enough to NOT have to depend on your children to house and feed you in your old age, there will be those who do not value a child. Just as not all people love cats, not all people like kids.

 

But more people remember to shut the back door and not let the stray in than remember to get snipped before answering a most profound call of nature.

[Stacy in NJ]

IF anyone is interested in this problem, read Coming Apart, the State of White America 1960-2010 by Charles A Murray. It is a frightening look at the growing chasm between the educated haves and the uneducated have nots. The chasm isn't just educational or economic but lifestyle, morality, health, etc, etc, etc.

 

 

I second the Charles Murray book.

 

If we truly want to reduce the number of children born to single women then we need to stop subsidizing their behavior. It's an economic truism that you get more of what you subsidize. Want more single women having children? Subsidize it. I'm in favor of restricting social welfare programs to limited amounts of time and restricting what can be purchased with food stamps, but then I'm a meanie Libertarian.

[Audrey]

Ideally, a child should have an excellent female role model and an excellent male role model constantly in their lives. However, I don't think those necessarily have to be the parents. The stigma against single parent and non-birthmommy-married-to-birthdaddy families is a bigger problem, IMO.

[Ottakee]

I didn't read the article but this "wanting a baby" is very true in the circle dh and I are working with right now. These are mid teens that want a baby so that they will have someone to "always love them". These are not accidental pregnancies in a committed relationship but rather a girl hooking up with a guy, any guy, in order to get pregnant.

[Anne in CA]

IF anyone is interested in this problem, read Coming Apart, the State of White America 1960-2010 by Charles A Murray. It is a frightening look at the growing chasm between the educated haves and the uneducated have nots. The chasm isn't just educational or economic but lifestyle, morality, health, etc, etc, etc.

 

I have read Coming Apart and it is disturbing on many levels. I agree with all the trends Charles A Murray is seeing (those are fact and easily observable), but I do not agree with most of his conclusions.

 

Mr. Murray believes the educated "haves" are actually smarter than the middle class. He uses SAT scores as an example. The reality of that situation is that good SAT scores can be purchased by any parents with a self disciplined teen who will study for those tests. A good SAT score is a not the same thing as high intelligence. Wealthy parents have been making sure their kids have great SAT scores for a long time now.

 

Mr. Murray also believes that the issue with the decline in middle class values stems from the upper class keeping good values "secret". (Well, he says they are silent on the issue.) I completely disagree with Mr. Murray on this point also. The decline in middle class values comes from the watered down secular human values that are the supposed benchmark in public school, IMO. I am a Christian and I work around many secular humanists who hold a high personal standard of behavior because they know what they believe and why they believe it. Their beliefs do not "trickle down to the masses" in the watered down forms they are provided in public school, any more than Christian values do not trickle down to children that are not taught apologetics or exposed to dynamic communities of faith.

 

Mr. Murray also believes the large number of white males on disability is tied to lower intelligence. I know several middle class men on disability and ALL of them could not physically work. Every man I know on disability would much prefer to work and is reasonably intelligent. They are victims of the poor health that some people fall victim to when they eat mostly processed food and drive trucks, or lift things they should not, or work jobs that drained them physically and they did not get good medical care.

[Murphy101]

Ideally, a child should have an excellent female role model and an excellent male role model constantly in their lives. However, I don't think those necessarily have to be the parents. The stigma against single parent and non-birthmommy-married-to-birthdaddy families is a bigger problem, IMO.

 

I don't see any stigma at all here. It's a very common and open situation here and they sure don't act like they have any shame about it. Which frankly bothers me more much of the time.

[kalanamak]

I didn't read the article but this "wanting a baby" is very true in the circle dh and I are working with right now. These are mid teens that want a baby so that they will have someone to "always love them". These are not accidental pregnancies in a committed relationship but rather a girl hooking up with a guy, any guy, in order to get pregnant.

 

I've also seen a disgusting amount of women eager to be grandmothers. Daughter pregnant at 16 and they are over the moon with delight. I even heard one woman tell a nice handsome co-worker she'd *just* met she would love it if her daughter had a baby by him. :svengo: She remarked on his physical traits as if she were planning a designer dog. I was really happy I wasn't the only shocked by the whole thing.

Her daughter eventually did get married and have a baby. Hubby is currently in jail for road rage and resisting arrest. But, GM goes on and on about "the cutest most wonderful baby in the world" and shows up pictures regularly. Daughter isn't in any of them.

 

*I solemnly swear to never ask kiddo, ever, ever, ever, when he is going to make me a grandmother.* :patriot:

[butterflymommy]

Mr. Murray believes the educated "haves" are actually smarter than the middle class. He uses SAT scores as an example. The reality of that situation is that good SAT scores can be purchased by any parents with a self disciplined teen who will study for those tests. A good SAT score is a not the same thing as high intelligence. Wealthy parents have been making sure their kids have great SAT scores for a long time now.

 

Actually, SAT scores are a good approximate for IQ, as are wordsum puzzles. SAT scores can be raised-- slightly-- by prep courses, but no one can "buy" a good score unless you commit outright fraud by paying someone to take the test for you (which has happened, but it's rare).

[Murphy101]

 

Sometimes the men lie. I once dated a guy who professed to be a loving single dad and all of the horrors he went through to see his son. Yeah....then his brother AND ex told me the truth. My ex likes to buy rounds for people at bars (and refuse to pay cs) and tell everyone what a great father he is. :glare: I know this because my best friend goes to the same bar. lol

 

Sure some men lie. So do plenty of women. Nothing new there. Usually though not hooking up for a good long time while a couple gets to know each other will bring most liars to light. Too many people are hooking up and then four months later are all, "wahhh I didn't know he was a two faced jerk and now we're having a baby!" Maybe if they hadn't jumped in the sack so quick, they might have learned that before making a baby. And of course the same goes for men who suddenly find their unexpected fatherhood held hostage by a woman they can't stand.

[Mona100]

I always hate when this topic comes up. I am one of those single, never married teen moms. I am seen in the eyes of society as a failure. I came from a rural background with a 2 parent household that had an older father who didn't think much of my abilities growing up and mother just went along with it. When I was a junior in high school and thinking about going to school, my dad told me that all I was good for is answering phones. So, at that time, I saw no future. There was nothing for me to do so I didn't pay attention to birth control issues. I honestly didn't think it could happen to me. There was also no discussion of sex by my parents. They really didn't know what I was doing

 

I had very low self esteem. When I got pregnant, I wasn't too worried about it because "hey, now I have something to do now as an adult." The boy and I weren't really dating so he wasn't ever involved in the picture. So, what was I suppose to do? The alternative in my mind was something I wouldn't do and adoption was never mentioned as an option. Basically, I was told to lay in the bed I had made. My parents did help out and I went on to get an associate's degree and a bachelor's degree in laboratory sciences. I stayed with my parent's until my daughter was 4 (now she's 17) and the only public assistance I had was prenatal care, birth, and WIC.

 

It is hard to be a single parent but once you are in the situation, what do you do? How do you go back? You can't.

 

Like I said, I think there is a huge huge issue of esteem by young people today. If you don't value yourself, how are you going to value others.

[Audrey]

I don't see any stigma at all here. It's a very common and open situation here and they sure don't act like they have any shame about it. Which frankly bothers me more much of the time.

 

That society thinks they should have shame about it is the stigma, Martha.

[mom31257]

I didn't read the article but this "wanting a baby" is very true in the circle dh and I are working with right now. These are mid teens that want a baby so that they will have someone to "always love them". These are not accidental pregnancies in a committed relationship but rather a girl hooking up with a guy, any guy, in order to get pregnant.

 

This is definitely true, too. We live in a county with a very high teen pregnancy rate. Dh is laid off from teaching at one of our high schools. He actually overheard several conversations in which girls were discussing getting pregnant so they would get more money from welfare. It doesn't help society when the government rewards the behavior.

[Stacy in NJ]

Sure some men lie. So do plenty of women. Nothing new there. Usually though not hooking up for a good long time while a couple gets to know each other will bring most liars to light. Too many people are hooking up and then four months later are all, "wahhh I didn't know he was a two faced jerk and now we're having a baby!" Maybe if they hadn't jumped in the sack so quick, they might have learned that before making a baby. And of course the same goes for men who suddenly find their unexpected fatherhood held hostage by a woman they can't stand.

 

 

 

Other than in instances of rape, child abuse, and incest, women have almost total control in whether or not they get pregnant. They can choose to abstain or use birth control which is very effective if used properly and consistently. It's also readily obtainable and cheap. You can purchase condoms in every drug store in American for about the same amount of money as a McDonald's super value meal.

 

I think men who abandon their children are pretty awful. Having said that, feminism is about having agency in one's own life. Women who have sex with unreliable partners and then rely on social welfare programs to support themselves and their children aren't taking responsibility for their own lives.

 

I don't consider the sex lives of other people any of my business, but I draw the line when others expect me to subsidize their poor, selfish choices.

 

I have sympathy for teens who aren't mature enough to fully grasp the consequences of their actions. But, if they were aware that if they do engage in unprotected sex there will be only a very limited safety net available many (not all) would probably make different choices.

[Hunter's Moon]

I did not read the article, but have read the thread.

 

I would not be able to count how many times I have heard the phrases "baby momma" and "baby daddy" while on the bus or walking down the street. The teen pregnancy rate where I live is HIGH. I know (personally) a few people who have had babies with someone they haven't known long, and the father either ends up in jail or they split up and both parents end up on public assistance. It is an epidemic here. And it is sad.

 

One young woman I know (again, personally) has a baby with a man who has a child with another woman and is now on his way back to jail. She has another boyfriend now.

 

It is a sad reality that many teens and young adults do not realize te gravity of their decision - On their lives and their innocent child's life as well. I am married but we are choosing to wait until we are done with college and can solidly support ourselves and another human being. God knows how I long to be a mother. But wanting and being ready are two completely different things. If only more teens understood this difference. Sadly, it seems to be a pattern within a family (not generalizing, just wht I have seen).

[mommymilkies]

Sure some men lie. So do plenty of women. Nothing new there. Usually though not hooking up for a good long time while a couple gets to know each other will bring most liars to light. Too many people are hooking up and then four months later are all, "wahhh I didn't know he was a two faced jerk and now we're having a baby!" Maybe if they hadn't jumped in the sack so quick, they might have learned that before making a baby. And of course the same goes for men who suddenly find their unexpected fatherhood held hostage by a woman they can't stand.

 

But people change! Or don't show their true face. It is sooooooo common. Heck, look at the Green River Killer. Everyone thought he was the nicest quiet sweet husband. But he killed 48 women in his free time! It's a major reason a lot of people get divorced. I mean, think of how many people have marital strife because their dh suddenly is done having kids or mom is done, or they had an unexpected pron addiction, etc. People are unpredictable and weird. And some people are eternal optimists thinking that teeny strange habit or personality trait is nothing to worry about.