Dropping out of classes while using grant money

[mom31257]

Is there a limit to the number of times students (who are on grant money) can't drop classes before they are cut off from financial help? My dh is laid off and going to the local technical college. He is amazed at the number of students who are enrolled at the beginning of semesters compared to how few are there later in that term. In his own classes, he's been able to see that many drop out.

 

I understand that students may find that a class is not for them and drop out; however, I am concerned that young people are using this as a free ride to avoid growing up (at the tax payers' expense). I am hoping that there is some kind of limit to catch this kind of behavior, but I fear the government wouldn't be wise enough to put something like that in place.

 

If they drop out past a refund time, does the money stay with the college or go back to the funding source? If they drop out before the refund time, does it go to the student or back to the funding source?

[LucyStoner]

I generally think it best to not dwell on other people's actions. You don't know if they transfered to a different program, are paying themselves, have a private scholarship, are on VA funding, are a trust fund kid who can't pick a major, are getting loans not grants or are dealing with a health or family situation unexpectedly. The possibilities are endless.

 

But to answer your question, of course there are limits. Why wouldn't there be? Congress in the 1980s and 1990s made a big deal out of blocking the "professional student, student for life" stereotype. The federal government doesn't give grants for more than 9 quarters at the 2 year community college level to the same person and there are rules about finishing a min. number of credits per quarter. You need to maintain "satisfactory academic progress" which is a combo of grades received and credits completed. I believe this is still 12 credits and a 2.0 or 2.5 gpa. I believe it is similar everywhere due to federal regs. If a student doesn't finish 1 quarter, they can often get 1 quarter on financial aid probation. If they drop 2 quarters or fail to meet the requirements for satisfactory academic progress while on fin. aid probation (which can result from grades or too few credits completed) they are ineligible for aid. Typically to become eligible again, they must pay out of their pocket for 1 quarter and demonstrate satisfactory progress and then they can apply to potentially receive aid again. In addition to limits on the number of quarters of aid for a community college level, they are limits on the number of quarters total for all types of schools. This may reset after 5 or 10 years from the last quarter attended in retraining and other sorts of situations. Dropping within refund time, means that the refund returns to the source and the student may need to pay back any portion they personally received (for books etc). Dropping after the refund period I THINK (still) means the school retains the tuition. If incomplete are granted, probation is generally an option. All of this information (including anything I am recalling incorrectly) is in the financial aid packet your husband should have received (assuming that he is on financial aid, if not, you'd have to specifically request it from the school.) I have been done with school for a long time so forgive me if my information is way off but I used to work in the first generation student office helping other students navigate these rules etc. I can only imagine if rules have changed that they are stricter and not more lenient now due to budget cuts and such. I also had one quarter where I had to take incompletes because I was working too many hours and taking care of my younger sibling during a time he had a severe health crisis. I was out of school for 2 quarters and when I returned, I was back on the dean's list straight-a-way. I recall going over those papers very carefully to ensure I was covering all my bases.

[lynn]

I don't know but ds attended tech college and said many young adults drop out as soon as they get their money. They know the system and work it. I'd like to think that there has to be some kind of consequence for not staying the course.

[Jane in NC]

As a former CC instructor, I know that students sometimes end up enrolling in courses as place holders. For example, some students prefer to keep their classes on two or three days of the week in order to work. But the only section of the Math course that they need with openings does not fit into their work schedule. Nonetheless, they sign up for the class but attend a different class during the first week in the hope that they can pick up a place taken by someone else who is essentially doing the same.

 

My son, a junior in college, wants desperately to take a course next semester that is sold out. His advisor pointed out that some of the students will have second thoughts when they realize that they really don't want to be in an 8 AM class. He has been advised to attend the class--even though he is not enrolled in it--for the first couple of classes to see if a place opens.

 

That said, as a math instructor, I have seen high attrition rates in some classes. Full time students who are over their heads may drop out of a class but still maintain full time status.

 

As an instructor, I never knew how my students paid for college--by scholarship, grant, loan, their own sweat or their parents.

[mom31257]

I'm glad to know there are limits. I've also been concerned about the amount of debt these young people may be taking on. If it doesn't end in them getting a good job, how are they going to pay it off? I just hope that our college systems are truly advising students well, and not just "raking in the dough".

 

Dh does see more than just the students dropping out of his classes. He says there are remarkable differences in the parking lots as far as space availability during the first month or two of the semester compared to the latter part of it. He says there are big differences in the hallways as well. They are really crowded those first couple of months, but much less so by the end of the semester.

[Dana]

It used to be that some students getting Pell Grants (in particular, I believe) would drop soon after they got the check. Checks are now disbursed closer to the middle of the semester. There are also much more stringent guidelines for "satisfactory academic progress", including number of credits attempted.

 

Our cc has a pretty strict attendance policy & after a student has missed 3 classes for any reason in a 2-day a week class, I drop them. The college wants the last date of attendance reported clearly as well for financial aid purposes.

 

Some of the parking lot crowds also can be because some of the classes may be practicums where students meet on campus at the start of the semester and then are at a different location much of the semester.

[SKL]

It could also be some folks taking extra classes so they can quit the ones they like the least.

 

But yes, there are folks who play the system. Not much new about that.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm glad to know there are limits. I've also been concerned about the amount of debt these young people may be taking on. If it doesn't end in them getting a good job, how are they going to pay it off? I just hope that our college systems are truly advising students well, and not just "raking in the dough".

 

Dh does see more than just the students dropping out of his classes. He says there are remarkable differences in the parking lots as far as space availability during the first month or two of the semester compared to the latter part of it. He says there are big differences in the hallways as well. They are really crowded those first couple of months, but much less so by the end of the semester.

 

 

Some classes don't have attendance requirements. As an English major, I was required to attend most of my classes because discussion was a large element of our grade. However, my dh had a lot of lecture classes for which attendance was not required. He turned in papers and went to take tests, and that was it for some of his classes. He made decent grades, graduated and has a well-paying job. Neither of us ever took on any student loans. We attended the same 4 year university, it wasn't a cc. I really think the variables are more than you realize.

[Miss Mousie]

I'm glad to know there are limits. I've also been concerned about the amount of debt these young people may be taking on. If it doesn't end in them getting a good job, how are they going to pay it off? I just hope that our college systems are truly advising students well, and not just "raking in the dough".

 

Dh does see more than just the students dropping out of his classes. He says there are remarkable differences in the parking lots as far as space availability during the first month or two of the semester compared to the latter part of it. He says there are big differences in the hallways as well. They are really crowded those first couple of months, but much less so by the end of the semester.

 

 

I am getting the impression that you are somewhat suspicious of the school - maybe a quality issue, diploma-mill thing? Is it a for-profit? I know those kinds of schools have been subject to some media scrutiny lately.

 

Apologies if I am completely missing the mark. But I can't think of any other reason why it would matter what other students are or are not doing, as long your DH is getting sufficient education.

[Crimson Wife]

Some of those "students" are recruited by scammers in exchange for a portion of the scammed money. They are called "Pell Runners".

[magnificent_baby]

In regards to Pell grants, I *think* that if grades are not kept up, or the student drops out, they are then billed by the college for the course and they lose the grant money.

 

I did a tiny amount of research about a year ago regarding this, because step Ds failed numerous classes and dropped out mid-term, so I was curious.

[Murphy101]

Yes. You must keep your credit completion rate at 60% or better and only classes they pass with a C or better count towards that completion rate. If you don't maintain the grades or the completion rate, you will not be allowed to claim any grants or most scholarships until you bring up your status. Usually that means you have to get a loan to cover everything you need for school until you bring up your completion rate/grades.

[Murphy101]

So dropping his courses might or might not seriously hurt his future grants. Depends on where that puts his GPA and completion rate.

[Murphy101]

I suppose some people just scam it for a few hundred bucks.

 

But there is also some truth to these schools screwing them over too. Many of these schools fully expect a huge drop out. The grant money to cover classes and books usually goes straight to the school and the student only gets what is left, if anything. So from another perspective. A college gets thousands for tuition and so forth and after a month they send a refund for what's left in the student grant account. Without a doubt, the school is racking in the $ on students that bail the first few weeks.

 

And there are lots of reasons they bail.

Class schedule changes to a time they can't attend.

Or they are badly advised on what courses to take and quickly find themselves drowning.

Family/work situation changes.

 

These are very common reasons people start and seem to quickly bail.

[mom31257]

 

I am getting the impression that you are somewhat suspicious of the school - maybe a quality issue, diploma-mill thing? Is it a for-profit? I know those kinds of schools have been subject to some media scrutiny lately.

 

Apologies if I am completely missing the mark. But I can't think of any other reason why it would matter what other students are or are not doing, as long your DH is getting sufficient education.

 

 

No, I'm not necessarily suspicious of this particular school because it's part of the state system. I just wonder if colleges in general are more concerned about their school getting money and not caring if students are truly successful at finishing classes or acquiring good jobs.

[Mergath]

There's no way for your dh to know if these students have actually dropped out, or are just not showing up for class. If it is the former, you might want to take a second look at the school- the good ones are full from the beginning to the end of a semester, and generally have wait lists for many classes. Actually, if it's the latter, you might want to reconsider his choice of school, as well.

 

You seem to be spending an awful lot of time and thought worrying about other people and their money.

[G5052]

No, I'm not necessarily suspicious of this particular school because it's part of the state system. I just wonder if colleges in general are more concerned about their school getting money and not caring if students are truly successful at finishing classes or acquiring good jobs.

 

I'm a community college professor, and we CONSTANTLY talk about this. It comes up in faculty meetings, strategic plans, you name it. We have open admission as long as you can pass some basic entrance tests. We offer remedial math and English for students who aren't up to the college level, but students who take these classes are not allowed to take most of the regular college classes until they pass the remedial ones. At the college I work for, only about 21% of the students who enroll in a degree program graduate, and because of budget issues all of the programs that lead to degrees that don't offer ready employment or transfer to a 4-year school have been eliminated. Students who receive grants or loans are required to go to a seminar that talks about the risks of that approach. The financial aid people are very blunt about the problems they will face if they drop out and have to repay what they received. So not all schools are being irresponsible about this.

 

As far as retention, it is impossible to tell if a student will make it. Some have top-notch entrance scores and start out well, but their work and personal problems overwhelm them. I teach a core course that everyone takes, and I can never predict who will fail even though sometimes 1/3 of mine do. Then I'll have a semester where only one or two will fail. Sometimes my top student at mid-terms begins to tank and fails even if they take the final. Sometimes a reluctant student picks up the pace and aces the final. I can't figure it out. We have a retention system where I actually report students who start lagging. The college contacts them and offers tutoring and academic counselling to get them back up to speed, but only a few take them up on it. I nag them too and offer all of the help that I can, but very few take me up on it.

 

The only way that will change is if we go to selective admissions, and sometimes that actually screens out people who ultimately will do fine. I've taught students who would never be admitted to a 4-year school because of extremely poor grades in high school, never graduating from high school, prison terms, etc. Most countries would never allow these types of people to go to college. I'm not sure that I'd like a system that shuts the door on someone because of past failures.