jennifer_mathew Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Hello! Im brand new to this site- and Ive read a couple of very useful threads on here already. So, Im bursting to ask all the questions that I have. I hope someone can help. Im the mother of a 4yo girl on the autism spectrum. Though she can verbalize for her basic needs by pointing and ocasional sentences starting with "I want" , teaching her new concepts take a lot of time. From what I can tell, she has significant issues with auditory processing. For example, Ive been trying to teach her colors for the past 4 months now, but it hasnt internalized much. She doesnt seem to understand what words mean. Im trying to find a good foundational program for understanding and processing words. Will earobics or other software like Hearbuilder help? Or should I start with something else. Any recommendations on the modules to start with would be helpful too! Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyslexicParent Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Have you looked into Lindamood Phoneme Sequencing (LiPS) yet? I personally would have put this thread in the Learning Challenges section, since those of us looking into Earobics and other learning-related programs are more likely to be there. The research I have read on Earobics, Fast ForWord and other software has been disappointing so far. From what I can tell, she has significant issues with auditory processing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinmom Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 If you think she has auditory processing disorder, I'd start with a full APD eval with an audiologist. However, that said, the twins' audiologist promptly suggested HearBuilder after diagnosing my twins with APD. There are several different programs, which is why having an evaluation is important. We started with the auditory memory program and will be branching off from there to different programs with each twin based on the specific problems that were found during the evaluation. We are also using an FM receiver and will be starting speech therapy after the first of the year...also recommendations from the eval. If you can't do an eval right now, HearBuilder is a great place to start, as is Earobics. I'd wait on something expensive like FastForWord until you can have it "prescribed" by someone who is sure you need it! HB is low cost, low commitment for someone getting started with APD treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyslexicParent Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 We are also using an FM receiver Has the FM receiver been helpful and worth it for your twins? We asked the ADHD specialist if we should add CAPD testing to the never-ending assessments, :unsure: and he said that if attention is a big problem, then using an FM system with the teacher would not help much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinmom Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 In our case, it has been great. It does improve attention, but not substantially...certainly not enough to justify the cost! In our case, we have kiddos with one ear functioning at a significantly lower level than the other ear. Happens sometimes with APD and an FM receiver can really help! It improves sound quality in that ear significantly, so it helps retrain the brain to "hear" sounds in that ear. It is also helping significantly with phonemic understanding, especially because we have our Orton-Gillingham tutor wear the mike during tutoring. It is a nearly $4,000 item without insurance. For us, we managed to get it covered and had a co-pay of around $740, primarily going towards the audiologist's time in fitting and training. It is definitely NOT something to run out and get unless you have had a full eval and are certain it will be useful!! Oh, and FYI...we were initially told that our twins were severely ADHD and needed heavy drugs. Turned out to be a combination of CAPD and mild developmental brain delay. We'd have missed the main issues if we had not gone for that APD eval and had a QEEG run! ADHD is often the go to diagnosis for kids whose APD has not be recognized...for what it is worth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer-72 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Hello! Im brand new to this site- and Ive read a couple of very useful threads on here already. So, Im bursting to ask all the questions that I have. I hope someone can help. Im the mother of a 4yo girl on the autism spectrum. Though she can verbalize for her basic needs by pointing and ocasional sentences starting with "I want" , teaching her new concepts take a lot of time. From what I can tell, she has significant issues with auditory processing. For example, Ive been trying to teach her colors for the past 4 months now, but it hasnt internalized much. She doesnt seem to understand what words mean. Im trying to find a good foundational program for understanding and processing words. Will earobics or other software like Hearbuilder help? Or should I start with something else. Any recommendations on the modules to start with would be helpful too! Thank you. Is she receiving speech therapy? It sounds like she may have some delays in her receptive language. A great way to teach concepts, build receptive and expressive language is through barrier games. Like this one: http://www.superduperinc.com/products/view.aspx?pid=GB181 you may also want to check out the processing program level 1 from super duper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 If you think she has auditory processing disorder, I'd start with a full APD eval with an audiologist. However, that said, the twins' audiologist promptly suggested HearBuilder after diagnosing my twins with APD. There are several different programs, which is why having an evaluation is important. We started with the auditory memory program and will be branching off from there to different programs with each twin based on the specific problems that were found during the evaluation. We are also using an FM receiver and will be starting speech therapy after the first of the year...also recommendations from the eval. If you can't do an eval right now, HearBuilder is a great place to start, as is Earobics. I'd wait on something expensive like FastForWord until you can have it "prescribed" by someone who is sure you need it! HB is low cost, low commitment for someone getting started with APD treatment. I don't know if this will be interesting to the op, but what are the differences between HearBuilder and Earobics? I've got my ds (and actually my dd too, just for good measure) going through Earobics right now. I'm curious what HearBuilder would add if we pursued that at some point. And you know, I think you just sold me on something. We did dd's eval with a regular np (no QEEG), but I *did* find one recently who does it. Might be extra fascinating with ds with his apraxia. I figured the QEEG was just a perk, but you're saying it allowed him to identify things it would have taken multiple other visits to other practitioners to catch (if they were worth their salt and caught it at all!). That's amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinmom Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Elizabeth, I've used both programs and both are good. The biggest difference between the two is probably what my audiologist said: Hear Builder can be done in 4-5 weeks of 20-30 minutes a day, Earobics can go on much longer than that. Most likely the reason for this is that HB breaks skills down into separate units whereas Earobics has everything in one program. This is an advantage cost-wise, but I prefer HB's more targeted approach for individualizing programs for each of my children. Also, Earobics drove them crazy! Took too long, I think. My audiologist says that is common...kiddos can see an "end" coming with HB, Earobics seems endless. Both are HARD work for the kids on the upper levels. This is even more critical with my kiddos' developmental delays, as they need longer than the typical 4-5 weeks to finish each CD-ROM. I'm always really glad to hear of someone considering a QEEG! For us, it was the one piece that brought it altogether. It also saved us a lot of trouble! During the Q wrap up sesson, we learned that with the way that Twin A's brain "overreacts" in the area around the brain stem (too complicated to fully explain...I'm not feeling well!), ADHD medications would have been a serious mistake, possibly resulting in a permanent disability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Twinmom, sorry you're not feeling well! Maybe the issues you were having with endless Earobics were in the older version? In the current version, I can go into the parent section and change what tasks/components are assigned and remove others. I can also change the amount of time it waits for answers, etc. My dd has been doing really well with the intermediate level and finished out 3 of the things completely. It still keeps having her do them, even though she has maxed them out, so I just removed them. She'll double up the others and move on to the advanced level (where I'll put back all the components). For my ds, the rhyming is finally coming. If he had continued not to be able to hear it, I would have removed it entirely so it wouldn't have frustrated him. Yup, I did find a np who does the QEEGs. He's very alternativey (which in general I like), so I wasn't sure what to make of that. It's an interesting option to have when my ds comes of age. Ok, I went over to the Hearbuilder site, and now what you're saying makes sense. It's like they're for two totally different markets. My ds is not necessarily discriminating sounds correctly, but he doesn't have any developmental delays. Hearbuilder is targeting a slightly different audience, and, as you say, breaks the skills down so they can focus. I'll go watch some more, but now it makes more sense. Just watching the videos, I think it probably goes *farther* on the skills than Earobics does. Of course I haven't seen the advanced level of Earobics yet, and there's an Earobics 2 I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyslexicParent Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I'm always really glad to hear of someone considering a QEEG! For us, it was the one piece that brought it altogether. It also saved us a lot of trouble! During the Q wrap up sesson, we learned that with the way that Twin A's brain "overreacts" in the area around the brain stem (too complicated to fully explain...I'm not feeling well!), ADHD medications would have been a serious mistake, possibly resulting in a permanent disability. I would also love to hear more about your qEEG experience later when you are feeling better, maybe in a new thread or if you have discussed it before in an existing thread (search does not work well). We went for a neurofeedback assessment, but it was one-cap so I'm not sure if that can be considered a qEEG. I was shocked that DD did okay on the ADHD-related tests and her theta/beta ratio was lower than others with ADHD. It seemed that she may fit the EEG profile of Asperger's Syndrome more than ADHD, which is one possible explanation why none of the four ADHD medication we have tried seems to have significantly improved ADHD symptoms. We are also told that it would probably take more than 80 sessions instead of the 40 that we had budgeted for. We are now confused whether or when to proceed with the full-cap assessment, ERP analysis (Event Related Potentials), Reference EEG to try to find out the best medication through CNS Response, and the potential $10,000 total cost of 80 sessions over ten months! :scared: :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geodob Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 You wrote that: 'She doesn't seem to understand what words mean.' But perhaps you might consider 'what words mean'? Words are just abstract sounds and symbols, that we use to represent things and concepts. Where this abstraction is reflected in the multitude of spoken and written languages. Though we take for granted, the ability to understand this 'abstract use of sounds and symbols'? For example, I have been involved with a number of children aged 6 to 9 diagnosed with Dyslexia. Who still had a difficulty with knowing 'letters' ? But it turned out, that when they looked at a letter, such as B ? They couldn't understand why it sounded like a B? It doesn't look anything like the sound? Yet it suddenly made sense to them, when they understood that B is just an abstract symbol to represent a sound. Which came as a great surprise to them. Where it is difficult for most of us to appreciate how they didn't understand that B is just an abstract symbol. But spoken words are equally abstract sounds to represent 'things'. So that when you wrote that: 'She doesn't seem to understand what words mean.' ? Taking your example of her difficulty with colors? That color doesn't 'mean' yellow? It is rather represented by an abstract sound , that is pronounced as yellow. So that perhaps it is not so much that she doesn't understand what words mean? But rather, that she doesn't understand that words are just sounds that we use to represent things and ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennifer_mathew Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 @geodob How do I help my daughter understand that "sounds that we use to represent things and ideas". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I would also love to hear more about your qEEG experience later when you are feeling better, maybe in a new thread or if you have discussed it before in an existing thread (search does not work well). We went for a neurofeedback assessment, but it was one-cap so I'm not sure if that can be considered a qEEG. I was shocked that DD did okay on the ADHD-related tests and her theta/beta ratio was lower than others with ADHD. It seemed that she may fit the EEG profile of Asperger's Syndrome more than ADHD, which is one possible explanation why none of the four ADHD medication we have tried seems to have significantly improved ADHD symptoms. We are also told that it would probably take more than 80 sessions instead of the 40 that we had budgeted for. We are now confused whether or when to proceed with the full-cap assessment, ERP analysis (Event Related Potentials), Reference EEG to try to find out the best medication through CNS Response, and the potential $10,000 total cost of 80 sessions over ten months! :scared: :unsure: So was the adhd diagnosis through a psych or a ped? And is the person doing the neurofeedback a neuropsych or something else? Think I'd get the diagnosis sorted out before I paid $$ for anybody's therapy, mercy. The qEEG options I found in our area were with neuropsychs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyslexicParent Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 The first ADHD diagnosis came early from a paediatrician, and we got the same opinion from two psychologists doing psychoeducational assessments, a doctor and most recently, a pyschiatrist who specializes in youth ADHD. Is anybody aware of studies that indicate that ADHD medication is less effective the more co-morbidities you have? The neurofeedback director is a clinical psychologist who has written a book on ADHD. DD has started getting free visits from an occupational therapist through her school, so we'll see how that goes before making the FIVE-FIGURE commitment for neurofeedback. So was the adhd diagnosis through a psych or a ped? And is the person doing the neurofeedback a neuropsych or something else? Think I'd get the diagnosis sorted out before I paid $$ for anybody's therapy, mercy. The qEEG options I found in our area were with neuropsychs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinmom Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I don't mind telling about our NF experience at all, with apologies to the OP! If this is too off topic for your thread, let me know and I'll create a new thread. We paid around $15,000 to send four family members through a 50-60 session round of NF. We did get a small group discount, though. It was worth every penny, despite the fact that most of it is still sitting on a credit card! ;(. For us, it was a game changer...completely altered our family makeup! When you have three kiddos with unbalanced brains (another long story) and a DH with chronic sleep deprivation as a result, you have to do something drastic if you want to have your family start to heal. We threw everything we had at NF with the best provider we could find, even though it meant a 3hr round trip with a 2 hr session twice a week. School got delayed, everything else was put on hold and we focused solely on tx. It took a few months to see a change, but then all of the sudden the lot of them started to improve. The dynamic of our household began to change, we began to see calmness and focus begin to develop in our kids, grades improved, DH began to sleep again...hope returned. All three kids who did the treatment had issues that were not identified until we had the Q. Two had been diagnosed severe ADHD and borderline IQ, due to prenatal drug exposure...the Q clearly showed that their issues were developmental in nature, could be managed without drugs and the neuropsych could offer us hope that they would eventually catch up to their peers. He also believes that they have normal range IQs but have a brain maturation delay that makes IQ testing fallible...his rec was to try testing them as two years behind and see how they do! Not necessary after we saw them start making dramatic improvements...his diagnosis proved correct. The third kiddos had been diagnosed conduct disorder, generally defiant, needing a kick in the behind, whatever you want to call it! This despite the fact that she had known LDs and SPD...people were giving up on her. The Q showed an abnormal EEG in her working memory area...this led to the discovery of a mild anoxic brain injury from birth (meconium, we believe), that caused her brain to overcompensate with a severe anxiety disorder. The defiance was actually panic! Good anxiety meds and a round of NF later and we have a functioning child. She has a way to go, but she is well on her way to a normal life. We have also thrown in some additional therapies that I've not mentioned here...we've been through OT, Speech, VT, Orton Gillingham, etc. All have made a difference, but the key to our success finds its root in it the underlying brain work we did in NF. All the therapies worked to develop new pathways, but NF worked at what seemed like light speed, giving us the jumpstart we needed to make real change. HTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 The first ADHD diagnosis came early from a paediatrician, and we got the same opinion from two psychologists doing psychoeducational assessments, a doctor and most recently, a pyschiatrist who specializes in youth ADHD. Is anybody aware of studies that indicate that ADHD medication is less effective the more co-morbidities you have? The neurofeedback director is a clinical psychologist who has written a book on ADHD. DD has started getting free visits from an occupational therapist through her school, so we'll see how that goes before making the FIVE-FIGURE commitment for neurofeedback. Pretty wild. Just as a totally aside thing, how does she react to caffeine? I was told most people and kids with adhd will have reverse reactions to caffeine (a stimulant obviously), getting more tired with it. It's pretty pronounced when I've seen it. It would be interesting to know if people with aspie + adhd symptoms have the caffeine reaction or not. It would be a totally different brain process, similar exterior symptoms. (assumption) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennifer_mathew Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 @Jennifer-72, yes, she is receiving speech therapy. She picks up words quite slowly though. Receptive language is quite delayed. And she resists anything that feels like work- So, thank you for the suggestions for the barrier game and the processing language book. I dont understand why its called a barrier game though :-). Does the processing language book also give guidelines about to teach concepts like color and wh questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennifer_mathew Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 @Twinmom My daughter has fairly significant issues with receptive language. Some basic statements like "Give apple to dad" can get awfully confusing for her. So, we are starting with the very basics of vocabulary for her- Action verbs and following basic directions. We also have seen auditory memory issues. Though we would love to, we wont be getting an audiologist assessment any time soon. Trying to save some $$$. Would you suggest "auditory memory" module or the "following directions" module first in the Hearbuilder program? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer-72 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 @Jennifer-72, yes, she is receiving speech therapy. She picks up words quite slowly though. Receptive language is quite delayed. And she resists anything that feels like work- So, thank you for the suggestions for the barrier game and the processing language book. I dont understand why its called a barrier game though :-). Does the processing language book also give guidelines about to teach concepts like color and wh questions? Here is a good description of how barrier games work. http://www.playingwithwords365.com/2011/11/barrier-games-great-for-language-enrichment/ With the barrier, you are forcing her to really clue into your words to figure out what to do. As the linked blog post says, anything can be a barrier game. The ones at super duper will provide you with lots of ideas and ways to target basic concepts. The processing program is listening to basic concepts instructions and pointing to the correct picture. You should be able to see some sample pages at super duper. From what you are describing of where she is at with her language, I am thinking you may need to help prompt her in the beginning with both the barrier game and processing program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinmom Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Jennifer, I'd start with auditory memory. It is really the core of several of the other skills! Our audiologist says that if you have auditory memory issues, you can't easily remediate the other issues. So, if only for the sake of playing it safe, I'd start there! FWIW, our next module will also be following directions for Twin A! Bless his heart, the kid can't figure out what we want most of the time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer-72 Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 I have both following directions and auditory memory. Following directions is by far easier. I really don't think either would be helpful to you at this point. From what you described her language level to be I think you would be better served playing lots of matching activities and sorting category type stuff. If you think she would be very motivated by a computer program, I would start with following directions. It goes over color concepts, basic vocab, some positional concepts. A couple of the language concept are ones that typically come at around 5-6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NittanyJen Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 We had great results from Earobics (the level 2 CD). He actually enjoyed most of the work on it, though parts of it were very hard work. His next step probably ought to be FastForward or LindaMoodBell, but I will wait for a re-eval to get an updated recommendation first, because I hate to put him through the work of the wrong therapy unnecessarily! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyslexicParent Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 None of us drink coffee or caffeine, and the disadvantages seem to outweigh the anecdotal benefits of giving caffeine to a child. Pretty wild. Just as a totally aside thing, how does she react to caffeine? I was told most people and kids with adhd will have reverse reactions to caffeine (a stimulant obviously), getting more tired with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geodob Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Perhaps you consider teaching her to use 'sign language'? This is often used with children that have significant speech issues. Where it provides them with an opportunity to develop a way to fluently communicate and express themselves. Which then carries over into their speech, as it develops. Where you wrote that she verbalizes her needs by pointing. So that she might take quickly to adding sign language to pointing ? "Give apple to dad", might no longer be confusing for her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Well absolutely pursue sign, but ASL still requires expressive language. My ds does not technically have a language delay, but there was a point where we (I) sort of waited, wondering why he wasn't USING the signs and initiating them. So any delays the dc has with expressive or receptive language would probably show up with the signs as well. If the motor control of speech is the problem, then you can get a situation with a child signing way beyond his ability to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer-72 Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Just came across this link http://innerchildfun.com/2012/11/diy-cardboard-toy-gingerbread-house.html on pinterest today, and thought how fun this would be to do as a barrier game to target colors and positional concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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