cjzimmer1 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 5 1/2 years ago I went to my parents house (they weren't home) I was there with my 4 kids, only adult on the property. I was distracted nursing my youngest and my then 4 year old snuck into the room where my mom had locked the dog (because she knew we were coming and was trying to prevent issues because the dog is exuberant). My daughter wanted to hand feed the dog (something that was normal for her and we never had issues with) but couldn't reach the bag, instead she reached into the dish that the dog was currently eating of to get some pieces. Dog took a single snap at her as a warning. Daughter had 2 small bite marks on her face. I cleaned her up and didn't really worry about it because it wasn't serious, do was just giving a warning for something daughter shouldn't have been doing etc. One of the bites got infected and we ended up taking her in to get an antibiotic. Police were notified, dog was quaranteed and it was a mess. Once they could provide copies that dog was up to date with rabies, daughter healed fine, no lawsuit etc. Insurance company said it was no big deal. Now insurance company has questioned whether my parents still have the dog. Yes, there have been no further incidences, she doesn't even growl at the kids, she is a nice dog. Insurance company has stated that some new federal law has been recently passed. The gist of it is that if a second instance would happen, the insurance company has to pay a fine of 3x some amount of $ (not sure 3 x what), as a result the insurance companies are dropping policy holders who have a bit with a "known" issue. My parents have talked to several companies in their area (and their agent represents multiple companies as well). It pretty much sounds like they can't even obtain insurance if they keep the dog on the property. So they have to choose between the dog or having insurance. Does anyone know of this law or if there is any loopholes? I have no idea if this applies to all policies or not. They live in the country and are zoned agriculture. I'm am so sad they will have to put their dog to sleep because of something that happened when I was in charge. I wish we hadn't taken her in but she really needed the antibiotic and I don't know what other choice we had. I never dreamed this would come back 5 years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloversandlions Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 I hope someone can help! I know that when we were shopping for insurance for the house we bought this year, we were asked by several companies if any of the dogs we had were of several breeds, or if any had been known to bite. My Great Pyr can be frighteningly fierce, but the dog I worry about the most is the little one we inherited from my MIL - she's a Lhasa Apso and she growls at everything, and has nipped - the air so far - at my cats, my other dogs, and my youngest dd. ETA: Perhaps you can contact a rescue that works with breeds known to be aggressive; I remember seeing a query from someone who had a Pit Bull about finding insurance that would allow them to keep their pet, so perhaps they might have some recommendations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfarmhand Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 I haven't heard anything of the sort. Basically our homeowners insurance told us we were on our own (as far as medical payments and lawsuits) if our dog bit anyone else. Do thay have Farm Bureau or Farmers insurance? They may be more understanding of animal issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjzimmer1 Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 The dog breed is an American Eskimo, so not an aggressive breed at all. They got her BECAUSE she was so good with kids. It was just she felt threatened when my daughter was trying to take her food. Totally normal dog behavior and like it said it was a single warning snap that happened to catch her cheek, dog was definitely not trying to attack. But the insurance companies count all incidences the same irregardless of the details. I believe what they are carrying is a farm type of insurance but it's a little different because they don't actually farm and a small portion of the land was used for their greenhouse business (which is closing as of the end of the year). I will have to ask her to see if the insurance company would consider insuring them but not anything related to the dog. They have may have tried that already but it can't hurt to ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 5 1/2 years ago I went to my parents house (they weren't home) I was there with my 4 kids, only adult on the property. I was distracted nursing my youngest and my then 4 year old snuck into the room where my mom had locked the dog (because she knew we were coming and was trying to prevent issues because the dog is exuberant). My daughter wanted to hand feed the dog (something that was normal for her and we never had issues with) but couldn't reach the bag, instead she reached into the dish that the dog was currently eating of to get some pieces. Dog took a single snap at her as a warning. Daughter had 2 small bite marks on her face. I cleaned her up and didn't really worry about it because it wasn't serious, do was just giving a warning for something daughter shouldn't have been doing etc. One of the bites got infected and we ended up taking her in to get an antibiotic. Police were notified, dog was quaranteed and it was a mess. Once they could provide copies that dog was up to date with rabies, daughter healed fine, no lawsuit etc. Insurance company said it was no big deal. Now insurance company has questioned whether my parents still have the dog. Yes, there have been no further incidences, she doesn't even growl at the kids, she is a nice dog. Insurance company has stated that some new federal law has been recently passed. The gist of it is that if a second instance would happen, the insurance company has to pay a fine of 3x some amount of $ (not sure 3 x what), as a result the insurance companies are dropping policy holders who have a bit with a "known" issue. My parents have talked to several companies in their area (and their agent represents multiple companies as well). It pretty much sounds like they can't even obtain insurance if they keep the dog on the property. So they have to choose between the dog or having insurance. Does anyone know of this law or if there is any loopholes? I have no idea if this applies to all policies or not. They live in the country and are zoned agriculture. I'm am so sad they will have to put their dog to sleep because of something that happened when I was in charge. I wish we hadn't taken her in but she really needed the antibiotic and I don't know what other choice we had. I never dreamed this would come back 5 years later. No, there is no loophole. It's the "one bite" law, or "dangerous propensity" standard. The dog is on record as a biter now. Some states permit punitive damages or treble damages if a known biter bites another. It's unfortunate for them, but they need to get rid of the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjzimmer1 Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 No, there is no loophole. It's the "one bite" law, or "dangerous propensity" standard. The dog is on record as a biter now. Some states permit punitive damages or treble damages if a known biter bites another. It's unfortunate for them, but they need to get rid of the dog. Thank you for explaining. At least it makes a little more sense to me now. The worst part is that their policy will end Dec 27 if the dog is still there. So basically sometime before Christmas they will have to put the dog down. What a cheery way to have to go into Christmas. The really frustrating part is the dog they had before her bite us all the time (I was a kid and we were always rough housing with the dog and things would go to far) but of course no one got an infection so we never had to see a doctor so all those bites went unreported. This dog has a very sweet dispostion compared to the last one and has one bad moment but now has to lose her life over something that was 5 1/2 years ago. I really do hate bureacratic absolutes where no one is even allowed to use common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elinor Everywhere Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Can they keep their policy if they give the dog away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjzimmer1 Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Can they keep their policy if they give the dog away? Yes, but if the insurance agent is correct, they are simply passing the problem on to someone else (i.e. trying to keep coverage). Also the breed of dog has a life expectancy of 12 years and she is now 14. She is still healthy but that could change at any time given her age. I guess I would be surprised that someone would even be willing to take a dog already 2 years past life expentancy with a known "history". Also given her age I'm not sure how easily she'd adapt to new surroundings. I will suggest it to my mom in case she hasn't considered the possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I know this is dishonest, but can't they just lie and say the dog died? If not, can you take the dog? I would never put my dog to sleep over an insurance matter. There has to be another way to handle this. I wish I knew more about insurance regulations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjzimmer1 Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 I know this is dishonest, but can't they just lie and say the dog died? If not, can you take the dog? I would never put my dog to sleep over an insurance matter. There has to be another way to handle this. I wish I knew more about insurance regulations. Well since the insurance company just asked less than a month ago if they still had it and they said yes, having no idea what was going on, it would look pretty suspicious now. No I can't take the dog. I'm due with our 6th child in less than 8 weeks and due to health issues I'm barely keeping my family going as it is. Also we have allergies and while I can spend a few hours at my mom's house, overnight visits leave me miserable (this dog has long hair which bothers me much more than short hair dogs). Finally, we have a small city lot and have no fence (because we have never been able to afford the kind allowed by the covenant for our subdivision) and since my parents have several acres, the dog is used to have a pretty large area to roam and obviously I'm not in any shape to retrain a dog right now. My mom had said the insurance agent (who represents multiple companies) has said pretty much all insurance companies have this clause in them now. I was really hoping to hear he was wrong or there was some loophole. I think we are out of luck there. I will suggest rehoming to her but I suspect she will not want to pass the burden of insurance on to someone else. Believe me she doesn't like the choice at all, but their only other option seems to be not having any insurance. Which if something went wrong (fire, tornado, someone has a serious accident on the property etc) would leave them completely wiped out financially. They are both retired, so they are not at the stage where they can afford to take financial gambles either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Well if you are sure that the dog is not really a biter, why would your mother have to say she was a biter if she gave the dog away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMA Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 http://www.latitudes...-2010-07-27.pdf I wonder if the dog can be "grandfathered" in though depending on when the one-bite law started. I mean if the one-bite law started last month and the incident was 5 1/2 years ago, I don't know if the insurance company can apply the law to 5 1/2 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Well since the insurance company just asked less than a month ago if they still had it and they said yes, having no idea what was going on, it would look pretty suspicious now. "Gosh, the dog just ran off. Darndest thing. Huh. Oh well." Problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Catwoman':I know this is dishonest, but can't they just lie and say the dog died? No, this would be fraud. The parents could be criminally charged if anything happened, as well as the insurance invalidated if an event occurred. If not, can you take the dog? Wouldn't the OP have children in the home? This is not a risk to pass on. An elderly dog with a history of biting. I was kind of surprised when OP chimed in to say this dog was better than a previous one that bit them all the time, but it went unreported! Don't keep biting dogs. Period. I would never put my dog to sleep over an insurance matter. There has to be another way to handle this Maybe someone who is experienced with dogs like this might offer, but full disclosure is a necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 "Gosh, the dog just ran off. Darndest thing. Huh. Oh well." Problem solved. No, not solved. Fraud (unless actually true). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I know what I'd do in her shoes -- I'd lie and keep the dog. A 14-yo dog isn't likely to bite anyone. 14-yo dogs sleep almost all the time. It's not much, if any, hindrance to their quality of life to let them sleep in a crate, where they and everyone around them are perfectly safe and the chances of another incident, especially after this long w/o another bite, are about less than zero. Would I euthanize an otherwise good and loyal 14-yo dog because of one bite that happened years ago and, from a training standpoint was human error MUCH more than an indication of a vicious dog? No. Just . . . . no. But . . . if your parents haven't called State Farm, I'd give that a try first. From everything I've heard on various dog message boards they tend to be the most dog-friendly insurance company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissad2 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I know what I'd do in her shoes -- I'd lie and keep the dog. A 14-yo dog isn't likely to bite anyone. 14-yo dogs sleep almost all the time. It's not much, if any, hindrance to their quality of life to let them sleep in a crate, where they and everyone around them are perfectly safe and the chances of another incident, especially after this long w/o another bite, are about less than zero. Would I euthanize an otherwise good and loyal 14-yo dog because of one bite that happened years ago and, from a training standpoint was human error MUCH more than an indication of a vicious dog? No. Just . . . . no. But . . . if your parents haven't called State Farm, I'd give that a try first. From everything I've heard on various dog message boards they tend to be the most dog-friendly insurance company. This is what I would do. Even though I know it is wrong but so is making someone put their beloved dog down because of something stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjzimmer1 Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 To all who sujessted lying, my parents won't do this. Aside from the potential legal ramifications, morally they wouldn't do this. It goes against everything we were raised to be and who they are. They will put the dog down before they lie. I was kind of surprised when OP chimed in to say this dog was better than a previous one that bit them all the time, but it went unreported! Don't keep biting dogs. Period. Let's just say we (as kids) were less than kind to the other dog. Bites were the result of provocation never an attack. Also it was 30+ years ago, and people weren't lawsuit happy then so reporting a dog who only ever bit the kids when they were being mean to said dog really wasn't something that crossed anyone's mind. The dog never bit anyone else just us kids, even she wasn't a threat to outside people. Also it may have been the mentally of living in the country. I captured wild kittens all the time to tame them. I was bit and scratched on a regular basis. But that was my own fault for messing with them when they didn't like people. I never sought treatment for anything because it was never anything that a bacterial spray and a bandaid couldn't handle. I realize that in today's society it sounds crazy, but really in our life back then it was normal. I had other relatives who lived on farms and yes you did sometimes get bit handling feral cats. I think that's way we had such a laid back attitude about dog bites too. But I also think that's why I find the currently circumstances so upsetting. I do understand the reasons for not allowing aggressive dogs to remain, but there is a huge differeence between a dog that is aggressive to others or known to attack people and a dog that is defending itself when PEOPLE are the cause of the problem. I have to take a kid to the ortho later and when I get home, I will talk to my mom about some of the suggestions here and see if there is anything she hasn't tried yet. I do appreciate the suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoughCollie Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 How about calling the consumer reporter/helper at your local tv news station, if there is one. Sometimes these folks can get the job done when nothing else works! This would be a great human interest story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justLisa Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 No, not solved. Fraud (unless actually true). Yeah insurance fraud is pretty serious. I have an uncle that did something similar and it was not pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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