If you're frustrated with discussing history and literature with a high school student...

[Tullia]

I wanted to share a conversation I had with one of my son's favorite instructors last spring. We were attending a large gathering at a family member's church when ds brought her over to meet me. He had taken two of her courses at the cc and had done well in both classes. She complimented him on his hard work, attention to detail, and especially his sense of humor and thoughtful contributions to class discussions. I was surprised-- but hope it wasn't obvious--because I'd had nagging doubts all along that we weren't doing enough. We did have good discussions at lunch time when we took turns reading aloud while preparing/cleaning up. But, when we were discussing books on the reading list--the attempts were often frustrating for both of us.

 

As we walked out of the building, my son grinned and told me that he could guess what I'd been thinking. His best diagnosis was that he suffered from writer's block and had the same problems with discussion. Sometimes he was just unsure about his interpretation and didn't want to "fall on his face" during his teen years. One thing that my son told me helped him gain confidence was a class he'd taken in which the instructor assigned a series of response papers designed to facilitate the writing of a research paper at the end of the semester. He thought those response papers, which were relatively informal and graded mostly on content, helped him with the writing process and made him more comfortable with class discussions. He shared the lists of questions for the response papers. They were were similar to those you'll find in The Well Educated Mind or the focus questions at the beginning of Spielvogel's Western Civilization. We've had some interesting discussions since he graduated from high school about what worked and what didn't with our home school. If I had it to do over again, I'd make make some changes.

• Work harder on mastering simple essay forms before high school but continue to write timed essays regularly during high school.
  
• Use response papers to facilitate discussion and writing.
  
• Find ways to make discussion times more informal and make more allowance for normal maturation issues.
  
• Write fewer formal essays, but make them longer, more complex, and due at the end of a semester.
  
• Work toward a goal of having a student master skills needed to work on papers, assignments, and exam prep for different classes simultaneously.
  
• Begin outsourcing earlier and outsource those subjects at which I am weakest and focus on subjects in which I'm better equipped.
  
• I'd say I wouldn't worry as much, but know myself too well to expect I'd be able to follow through on that one.
  

Edited to clarify: Ds took the class which involved response papers later on, so what I took away from the conversation was that my son had picked up more discussion skills than I thought.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Tullia

[PeterPan]

Can you share the response questions? I hadn't really thought about a distinction between informal and formal writings, but it makes sense. My dd is probably more like your ds in that sense, that informal writings would build the foundation to make the formal easier. We're just on the cusp of all this, so I'm learning. :)

[Tullia]

Can you share the response questions? I hadn't really thought about a distinction between informal and formal writings, but it makes sense. My dd is probably more like your ds in that sense, that informal writings would build the foundation to make the formal easier. We're just on the cusp of all this, so I'm learning. :)

 

I need to be away from the computer until this evening, but if I can uncover the folder in my closet I'll be happy to share. If all else fails, I know exactly where to find TWEM and Spielvogel's on my bookshelf and will give some examples from them. One of the best things about the TWEM questions is that they're divided into the trivium stages. You can focus on grammar stage questions with a younger student and gradually adjust the mix as you go. I wish I had back some of the $'s spent on Literature curriculum before I figured out that our writing curriculum plus TWEM (and a booklist) were all we needed. I'm in the position of having graduated my only child. The poor guy has been kind and says he has few regrets.

[Tullia]

If we still have the folder with specific questions tied to particular books, it's buried under stacks of stuff, and I don't have the courage or time to tackle that closet right now. However, I did look through TWEM again and it shook loose some memories of how I used the book as a guide during high school as well as my excitement later on when my son showed me the questions from his class. I realized that they are similar to the general questions in TWEM--the primary difference is that the questions from his class mention specific characters and books.

 

One thing my son told me about his class was that the instructor covered grammar and some logic questions during lectures/preliminary discussions in the first sessions devoted to each book read for the course; the response papers dealt mostly with logic level questions during the time students were reading the book, and rhetoric level questions were usually assigned near the end of the time devoted to the book.

 

The response papers were to be completed prior to discussions and turned in at the end of the class in which the questions were discussed. They were graded on content and returned promptly with feedback provided. The main purpose was to facilitate class discussions and to generate material for an end of term paper. (Students were asked to choose one book from the course and write about different aspects of that work.) I think that for middle school or beginning high school students you might assign a brief series of response papers culminating with a short essay for each book. [That wouldn't necessarily preclude writing a longer term paper.]

 

The passage in TWTM that pulls things together best for me is on page 19. The general topic is a differentiation between classical methods and how things are done in typical classrooms today. This one sentence stands out: "To tackle a course of reading successfully, we have to retrain our minds to grasp new ideas by first understanding them, then evaluating them, and finally forming our own opinions." Of course TWEM is directed toward adults, so where SWB says "retrain" I substituted "train."

 

TWEM has good examples of how to apply general questions to particular books. In Chapter 5 which deals with novels there is a set of logic stage questions beginning on p. 73. There are examples given for how you might respond to questions about Elizabeth Bennet or other characters. Ds saw similar questions in his class:

• What does the central character(s) want?
  
• What is standing in his (or her) way?
  
• And what strategy does he (or she) pursue in order to overcome his block?
  

A paraphrase of some of the rhetoric level questions from TWEM which my son also saw in similar forms in his class assignments:

• Which characters evoke sympathy and why?
  
• How did the larger cultural/historical context experienced by the author affect this particular work? [From his class; how did context affect the author's depictions of women, minorities, indigenous peoples, etc.]
  
• Is there an "argument" in this book? [sometimes rendered in class assigments as "crisis point".]
  
• Do you agree with this book? [From his class; Has something about this book affirmed or challenged your opinions about questions of __________ which were raised by _______ in ___________?]
  

This is only a small sample; TWEM has sets of questions for autobiographies, historical works, drama, and poetry. My favorite is the question on p. 268 suggested for rhetorical level inquiry: How would you direct and stage this play? The topic is further broken down into questions about casting, staging, costumes, use of music, comparing the ways different directors have staged this play, etc.

 

I used a lot of the questions from TWEM while my son was in high school, and that method worked far better than some other things we'd tried. What I'd change is instead of merely discussing those topics, I'd assign the questions in the form of a response paper to be completed prior to discussions and reduce the number of formal essays required. Assuming the student is making notes and writing short chapter summaries along the way, having the response papers (with feedback) will reduce the time and effort needed to write a formal essay.

 

For history, I often used the focus questions at the beginning of Spielvogel's Western Civilization (5th ed.) A student who makes notes on the reading assignments and answers the set of focus questions preceded by a blue dot in a series of response papers will then have the raw material needed to write an essay. Those questions lead fairly well into the final, more complex question preceded by an orange square. [Note: the format may have changed in later editions.]

 

One key to writing a good response paper and formal essay is learning to cite the text in the answer rather than merely describing something or stating an opinion. A student who makes notes while reading will be able to find and include good examples automatically when writing response papers and/or essays. My son did not appreciate being sent back to add more citations and specific examples to his writing when he was in high school. He found out his first semester in college that possessing that skill made his life easier.

 

My apologies for the length of this response. I'll close with one of my son's favorite discussion questions. Can you name any fictional characters from later works who remind you of Odysseus? One suggestion was Capt. James T. Kirk. I was skeptical at first, but when ds went through the ideas shared by his classmate I had to admit there might be something to the comparison. Who knew? :coolgleamA:

[Joan in GE]

Thank you for discussing this - it's helpful for us....

 

Joan

[Elinor Everywhere]

Thanks so much for taking the the time to write this detailed response! It's really helpful for me, since literature discussion is my weakest area. I use TOG for the most part, but I'm not enamored with Year 1 so I am adding in a lot of my own stuff, and not sure how to go about discussing it without my TOG notes. I have TWEM, but forgot about the awesome questions in there.

 

Very inspiring!

[Tullia]

There were years when I was too busy to participate fully in the WTM community due to what seemed like a never-ending series of family crises, and it felt like I was always on the take...kind of like the slackers/moochers described in the thread on the holiday potluck on the chat board. Whenever I needed encouragement or specific help I could always count on finding what I needed on these boards. I have a large debt piled up, and need to start paying something back before I forget all the details! I'm already out of the loop on new curriculum options.

 

I've especially appreciated all the posts here about math because that was our problem subject for a lot of years, and also threads on the pros and cons of community college. Reading about people's good experiences helped me get past the thought that CC wasn't part of "my" plan for the next step after home school. Reading about negative experiences helped my son avoid things that could have caused problems.