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When is behind "really" behind?


When does being behind become more of a problem?  

7 members have voted

  1. 1. When does being behind become more of a problem?

    • 2nd grade or before
      14
    • 3rd grade
      36
    • 4th grade
      29
    • 5th grade
      23
    • Middle School
      76
    • High School
      17
    • Never or Other
      13


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I know this would vary a lot based on the child/children, parent and probably other factors. But I'm just looking for opinions about when it might matter more to be behind in content mastery.

 

I've always taken the track that we will just do the next thing and never worried about where we were in, say, a math curriculum or spelling.

 

For various reasons I'm starting to feel a little behind and a friend today made me feel worried about it. I've always respected her advice as she's homeschooled for many years and has younger kids as well as homeschool graduates. She's putting her kids in school now though and so maybe that skews her viewpoint a little.

 

When do you think "behind" becomes more of a problem? At what age do you think being "behind" makes it difficult to catch up--either in content or mastery of an important subject?

Edited by sbgrace
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I find the question impossible to answer. Being behind can be sign of a developmental or learning disability, in which case it would be important to address it as early as possible. Being behind can also be just having a late start or not using consistent schooling or being a late bloomer - all of which can be remedied more easily.

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Margaret,

 

Would you say that sort of thing--parent or child issue like that--is a problem at whatever age or it becomes a problem if "they" don't correct it by x period of time?

 

I find the question impossible to answer. Being behind can be sign of a developmental or learning disability, in which case it would be important to address it as early as possible. Being behind can also be just having a late start or not using consistent schooling or being a late bloomer - all of which can be remedied more easily.

 

I recognize that which is why I hesitated to ask!

 

I guess I'm thinking without organic cause in the child. I think that kind of organic cause behind is going to be a continual struggle to some degree. I have one like that in certain, non-academic so far, areas. But I think our behind has more to do with a philosophy I've had to focus on quality of our learning rather than how far we get.

 

I've also been pretty "stop and smell the roses" and I'm wondering if that needs to stop now that we're in 3rd grade.

Edited by sbgrace
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When do you think "behind" becomes more of a problem? At what age do you think being "behind" makes it difficult to catch up--either in content or mastery of an important subject?

 

These are very different questions for me. For the first question, although this will not be a popular answer, I think it is always a problem to be behind if there is any chance at all of a child needing to enter school. I believe it is unfair to not keep kids on grade level and then enroll them in school. For the second question, assuming school attendance is not an issue, I agree with Regentrude. Maybe it's a problem and maybe it's not. As to late bloomers, being allowed to be behind without judgment is a blessing. A wonderful, beautiful gift to that child.

 

Another time I think it's a problem to be behind? If I'm being totally honest...because I know people... I think it's a problem if kids are behind because their homeschooling parent can't pull it together. Plans, plans, plans and no delivery...

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What do you mean by behind?

 

I would be worried if a third grader could not read at or a over grade level and could not do basic arithmetic including some use of and exposure to division. I would not be worried about a 3rd grader just hadn't covered some of the same things their peers have, provided they have learned the basic reading and math skills to advance.

 

3rd grade, to use the cliche, is when students transition from learning to read to reading to learn. A solid reader with basic arithmetic skills will be able to advance to higher level work. But someone struggling to read afte a certain point doesn't necessarily have the tools to catch up.

 

Also, if you test you might be surprized with how your kids score. I guess because my son's verbal/reading is so much stronger, I assumed that his weaker math skills must put him behind. In reality his problem solving andath skills are ahead of grade level and place him at about the 95th percentile. So don't guess, get some grade level tests and see the results. It was a relief for me to see how well he is doing headed into 3rd year homeshool. But I truly would have assumed he was much weaker overall in math.

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But I think our behind has more to do with a philosophy I've had to focus on quality of our learning rather than how far we get.

 

I've also been pretty "stop and smell the roses" and I'm wondering if that needs to stop now that we're in 3rd grade.

 

OK, and now really quickly I want to address this. If you are homeschooling and you philosophically fall on the side of "better late than early" and you are easy, breezy but intend to ramp up, I think that can be fine. The moms I know who have dropped the ball never had a philosophy though. :001_huh: They were just making plans upon plans and never getting around to doing anything.

 

Also, regarding 3rd grade. Yes, my instinct was to check the 3rd grade box. I did notice a big change in my oldest at 8, in third grade. More maturity, capabilities, patience, work ethic. It's a good time to kick learning up a notch. :)

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[quote=sbgrace;4441479

When do you think "behind" becomes more of a problem? At what age do you think being "behind" makes it difficult to catch up--either in content or mastery of an important subject?

I answered "high school" based on the bolded part. Once in high school, it's very difficult for a student who is behind to get caught up. I'm there right now with my oldest.

 

However, I do think it's noticeable and should be addressed in middle school. That's so the student doesn't get to high school still behind.

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But I think our behind has more to do with a philosophy I've had to focus on quality of our learning rather than how far we get.

I've also been pretty "stop and smell the roses" and I'm wondering if that needs to stop now that we're in 3rd grade.

 

OK, so what do you consider "behind"? And what is "quality of learning"?

Not sure how to interpret the phrase.

I would be concerned if a 3rd grader was unable to read, and I'd have a hard time detecting "quality of learning" if he can't (assuming there are no LDs).

I would be concerned if, at the end of 4th grade, a student could not perform arithmetic with integers.

 

Beyond that, I would not give a fig about what specific topics the student has read about, what science or history topics have been covered, whether he has finished one single item of scripted curriculum - as long as learning has been taking place. But problems with reading and math abilities have a tendency to compound, rather than miraculously disappear.

Edited by regentrude
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I don't think it's ever "okay" to be behind. I think when a child has difficulty in an area, then you investigate why and address the problem as soon as possible. I don't, personally, agree with the idea of "better late than never." On the other hand, I also don't believe in pushing children very early, and I do not consider my educational philosophy draconian at all.

 

However, there are reasonable standards for development that I feel are good guidelines to apply to homeschooling as well. In a worst case scenario, where a child really is behind, I think that, by middle school, if the basics are not solid then progress is impeded greatly. So, if nothing else, get your middle school aged child up to speed, so that high school isn't four years of struggle and failures. It's hard enough being a teen without also being behind academically.

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Depends on the situation and why they are behind. For kids with LD as long as they are progressing I do not believe they are ever behind, they are where they are right through high school. For example, my 9 yr old up until recently could not read. The fact that he is doing so right now (grade 1 level mind you, not fluently yet) is a huge accomplishment as we were told by many of the people working with him it would not happen, and even now they aren't holding out a lot of hope for continued progress. He is a very smart, but has multiple LD, including tracking and convergence insufficiency and visual processing disorder along with a few other things. I am not worried about it at all, each day he progresses a little more. He has dysgraphia and dyscalcula too so like his reading he is at a 1st grade level in math and writing. If I was not working with the various therapists getting him help or working with him at home seeing little gains in ability I would be more worried. Now that said my oldest boy is in 8th grade. Out here high school does not start until 10th grade so we have some time but I am feeling the push to have him catch up to his peers despite his LD. I don't think we will do that, and anticipate that in math he will always be behind. He is struggling heavily with basic division right now. He just doesn't get it. We still work at it, but really that is something generally taught in 3rd grade, and here he is in 8th confused and lost with it. Even getting my sister the math teacher to work with him has not worked. I will be happy if he learns the rest of the elementary type material by the time he starts high school and doing prealg in grade 10 if need be. Again if he wasn't being worked with regularily or was NT but behind due to laziness on my part or his I would have a great concern. That would be a concern at any grade level though, from 1st through 12th.

 

So long story short I do not think there is any 1 specific grade that makes it a bigger issue. I think the reason for being behind does, and anything that is due to laziness or neglect is a problem. If due to specific philosophy, LD and the like but the parent is still teaching regularily and the student is still trying than not a problem.

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I'll just put it all out there like I did my friend. I want to know if I'm messing my kids up!

 

We are 8 and in 3rd grade.

 

My boys both read well. We are in Phonics Road 2 so behind in language arts spelling/composition. This was intentional on my part. I didn't think my boys were ready for the writing intensity of later levels but I wanted the Phonics Road approach so I delayed and went slowly. I know we don't match public school kids in writing or spelling. I have a naturally good speller and a struggler. We have done very little composition beyond sentences and extremely simple guided paragraphs. There has been very little grammar instruction so far in the program. What we have done is quite basic.

 

I have switched math curriculum more than once and went back to the beginning each time I switch. This was because what I used originally wasn't working for one child and finding what would work took some time. I didn't want gaps so I would start at the beginning with a switch.

 

So we are a bit past 1/2 way through 2nd grade math with a Singapore type approach (Math in Focus). They completed through 1/2 of RightStart C so we have a smattering of skills in other ways. They have been exposed to division but one particularly just isn't getting it solidly. I hope that will come in time. I suspect one child would test well ahead of where he really is, textbook wise, in math. The other probably would test 2nd grade. I'm thinking of parking a little and working on multiplication and division concepts with c-rods to see if it helps my struggling one. But then he'll be that much more behind in the text. My inclination in the past has always been quality over quantity so I would have stopped. Now I don't know what to do.

 

The other thing is me. We school year round and often on Saturdays. So I tend to be very flexible with our schedule figuring it will all even out eventually. For example we have something in the morning tomorrow and I know we probably won't get much if any school done. This has never bothered me but maybe it should? Maybe I'm too relaxed.

Edited by sbgrace
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I have a naturally good speller and a struggler.

..... I suspect one child would test well ahead of where he really is, textbook wise, in math. The other probably would test 2nd grade.

 

Is it possible to use different curriculum for both of your children for spelling and math? It seems to be that one is having to have to wait for the other one.

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If a child has been stimulated and exposed to the world in other purposeful ways, I would say a child could miss a lot of formal schooling through 2nd grade. Most of the academic parts of K, 1st and 2nd could be made up in a diligent 3rd-4th fairly easily. Some tasks that take a week to teach a kindergarten, could be taught to a 2nd grader in a day.

 

There is a tricky balance with certain touch points in a child's development, that really are easiest to teach at concrete points in time. ie dd5 learned her letter sounds easily at 3yo. She had complete mastery of the most common phonetic sounds for the alphabet. At 3yo, you could lift up a glass and ask her what letter it started with and she would say "g". But, she has never progressed in actual reading until this year....Kindergarten, over 2 years after learning the sounds. K, The magical year, when most kids learn to read. My older kids were both reading when they entered K, but she was just not ready.

 

To me, education isn't just about formal academics. Giving a child a rich learning experience, full of a variety of books, mathematical experiences, opportunities to write and instruction to enrich their own stories, opportunity to discover science concepts, exposure to historical concepts, among other things, can lead to a rich 'education' for the under 7yo group.

 

 

I would be concerned if my child was more than 1 year behind their age related peers after 4th grade. I would be seriously concerned if they were 2 years behind without knowing there was a medical cause and a plan in place to address their learning needs.

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I'll just put it all out there like I did my friend. I want to know if I'm messing my kids up!

 

We are 8 and in 3rd grade.

 

My boys both read well. We are in Phonics Road 2 so behind in language arts spelling/composition. This was intentional on my part. I didn't think my boys were ready for the writing intensity of later levels but I wanted the Phonics Road approach so I delayed and went slowly. I know we don't match public school kids in writing or spelling. I have a naturally good speller and a struggler. We have done very little composition beyond sentences and extremely simple guided paragraphs. There has been very little grammar instruction so far in the program. What we have done is quite basic.

 

I have switched math curriculum more than once and went back to the beginning each time I switch. This was because what I used originally wasn't working for one child and finding what would work took some time. I didn't want gaps so I would start at the beginning with a switch.

 

So we are a bit past 1/2 way through 2nd grade math with a Singapore type approach (Math in Focus). They completed through 1/2 of RightStart C so we have a smattering of skills in other ways. They have been exposed to division but one particularly just isn't getting it solidly. I hope that will come in time. I suspect one child would test well ahead of where he really is, textbook wise, in math. The other probably would test 2nd grade. I'm thinking of parking a little and working on multiplication and division concepts with c-rods to see if it helps my struggling one. But then he'll be that much more behind in the text. My inclination in the past has always been quality over quantity so I would have stopped. Now I don't know what to do.

 

The other thing is me. We school year round and often on Saturdays. So I tend to be very flexible with our schedule figuring it will all even out eventually. For example we have something in the morning tomorrow and I know we probably won't get much if any school done. This has never bothered me but maybe it should? Maybe I'm too relaxed.

 

 

There are many 8 yo boys in 2nd grade who are roughly where your sons are at, so even by public school standards, no they wouldn't be "behind" if you were to put them in PS.

 

I think you have the right idea making sure they've mastered the material before moving on. Just keep reminding yourself that this is not a race. There is no ahead, there is no behind.

 

If you were constantly slacking off and ignoring their education, THAT would be a problem. But providing consistent instruction that is sensitive to the needs and abilities of your children is never, ever a problem. You're doing a great job. Please try not to worry. :grouphug:

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I didn't vote. If there is an organic reason for delay, then delay happens for as long as it needs to. If there is no organic reason, I (personally) made sure that English and Maths were not behind, just in case the children needed to go to school for some traumatic reason. The last thing I wanted to inflict was a traumatic school experience on top of another disaster.

 

Content subjects: I didn't really worry about them until after about age 11, although the boys did have the benefit of very wide reading. Their current teachers are pleased with their overall knowledge and haven't been worried about the specifics.

 

Languages: you can't rush these easily. If they are important to you (or to the children's future careers) then I would start fairly early and be consistent.

 

Laura

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That's exactly it. In both subjects we're waiting on one or the other for mastery.

 

I don't think there is any reason to use the exact same curriculum for each. While the same age, they have different talents. Let them work at their own levels. It will help them with both their strengths and their weaknesses.

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I think in the situation you describe, I would definitely stop and cement those multiplication/division facts with your one son before he moves on. Math really compounds as they get older, so moving forward before he fully grasps the concept won't be good for anyone.

 

I would also encourage you to let your other son continue ahead; perhaps there's a math curriculum he can do more independently, or you can keep working with him in what you have, or he can work it on his own, or ??? Something so that he does not have to always wait on his brother. I realize it's more work on your end, but it will be important for each of them to work at his own pace -- neither too fast nor too slow in relation to his own abilities.

 

As for when behind is a problem.....reading and math facts (understanding how to, not just memorizing the answers) are the keys, and then everything else really builds on that. Certainly if a child hits 3rd grade or so unable to read, or 4th/5th grade unable to do math, then those things need to be caught up. As for writing, spelling, grammar -- I've found that those skills can catch up pretty quickly and think you are okay to take a better late than early approach there. At least, it hasn't hurt my boys yet; my oldest is 9th grade and doing an on-line program now and getting high marks on all his writing assignments, despite no formal writing prior and just some basic grammar, creative writing/revision work in the past.

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Quick question because I often worry about this:

 

What would "behind" look like on a standardized test?

 

The reason I ask is because I often worry about my child being behind. For the last two years she has scored in the 60th percentile on the ITBS. (Many of the questions she misses because of the time limit.)

 

I've heard from a couple people that one "should" score in the 90th percentile, or that anything below the 90th percentile means they aren't on grade level.

 

Thoughts?

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I don't really think your all that behind personally. Well, where I live 8 can very well be 2nd grade depending on birthdate and my son is an 8 y.o. 2nd grader.

 

re: Reading as long as you are working consistently and making consistent progress I don't think you are behind. You cannot rush into understanding. If there was still struggles then I would evaluate but otherwise I'd let it be.

 

re: Writing following the WTM approach they aren't even supposed to be doing full paragraphs on their own at that stage. I don't follow ps standards as I don't think it the best approach.

 

re: Spelling I think it sounds like you are laying a good foundation as with reading as long as they are making progress I wouldn't personally worry about the level.

 

Re: Math I think I would try to do some assessment and move them up where they need and concentrate on the areas where they are lagging. I do think building a foundation is paramount but I don't think it necessary to go back to the beginning every time there is a change.

 

Re: Consistency- I think only you know if this is an issue. I think perhaps it is time to do a self-evaluation. Perhaps journal what is getting done and when for a few weeks and see where you're at- perhaps you are doing more than you think or perhaps it is less. I would concentrate on the core areas in that time and see. I think then it will be more apparent if you are just (1) working with them where they are at or (2) not putting in enough consistent time and effort to accomplish what you need to do.

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For kids with LD as long as they are progressing I do not believe they are ever behind,

 

:iagree: Do you see any true signs of disabilities with your kids? If not, it sounds as if you simply need to individualize their instruction. More work for momma, but the rewards are worth it.

 

I couldn't answer your poll - IMHO, behind isn't something measured by a specific age/grade, but by how far behind they are at any point (2 years is more than concerning). Clear as mud?

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I feel like you're trying to be fair keeping them in exactly the same place even though one child is clearly ahead of the other. When you think about how you're holding one back, you should realize that isn't fair to that child. You're not allowing him to be challenged and he may never develop a feel for being so. He may always hold himself back and that won't be good in later years like high school where one really has to work hard.

 

I would suggest separate curriculums, preferably ones that do not have grade levels on the books. That way the one child who is behind the other won't feel like he's not smart. And, I would use the program assessment to place the children in the correct levels and not start at the beginning again. You simply cannot start at the beginning of every curriculum you try or you'll never advance.

 

I'd focus on math and language arts, putting the bulk of their work in those subjects. I'd use the other subjects as fun stuff. History, Science, Logic, and foreign language can be interesting if they are approached right. But I wouldn't try to do every one every day.

 

I once read that although Right Start wasn't equivalent to grade levels, the levels A through E are basically through 5th grade. If they were in Level C, that is some 3rd grade work. As for your new program, are you focusing on having every problem solved? I always allowed my kids to skip over mastered material. In other words, if the chapter was something easy that they could do with their eyes closed it was a waste of time to go through it. That allowed us to have more time on the concepts that needed true practice.

 

I personally think a child should be on grade level, for what value grade level is in your neck of the woods, in 5th grade. Going into middle school starts work that is of a higher level than just the next thing. It prepares a child for high school. There is nothing wrong with each child being on a different track either. You may find they each excel in different subjects. One might be great at Math & Science while the other rocks in Lang. Arts & History, for example. They'll likely have different strengths and weaknesses. This will hold true for any students, even a whole classroom of all the same aged kids.

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:iagree:

 

My oldest has some learning disabilities. He will NOT be on grade level with several things. He simply cannot do it, no matter how hard I push.

 

My other two score at grade level or above and are fully capable of doing the work assigned.

 

Dawn

 

I think that if a child is behind what they are capable of doing, it's important to figure out why--before high school. Maybe they have a learning glitch, maybe mom isn't being diligent, maybe child is being lazy, maybe just enough time isn't being spent. I had to have a hard talk with a mom about the fact that her kids were behind because they were spending so much time building a new church building. She was wringing her hands and wailing, but they just weren't putting in the time in the books.
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i vote middle school for my kids. at that age, i expect them to not only be up to par with their PS peers but surpassing in many areas. my daughter is 11 and i feel she would do fine in public school. my son is 8 & he is probably behind in PS writing expectations, but he's doing exceedingly well according to my own scope and sequence.

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I've also been pretty "stop and smell the roses" and I'm wondering if that needs to stop now that we're in 3rd grade.

There are no "grade levels" when you're homeschooling, especially when you remember that "grade level" varies from state to state, depending on the cut-off date for school entry. :)

 

An 8yo child is a little too young yet to be worried about being "behind." If you are happy with your methods and instructional materials, and you think your dc is making adquate progress, then that's what's important. I say this as someone whose younger dc wasn't reading at her age level until she was 9½, and was taking classes at the community college when she was 14.

 

If you think your dc could learn more, then look for a way to make that happen, but don't base it on "grade level." Base it on your dc's abilities.

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Quick question because I often worry about this:

 

What would "behind" look like on a standardized test?

 

The reason I ask is because I often worry about my child being behind. For the last two years she has scored in the 60th percentile on the ITBS. (Many of the questions she misses because of the time limit.)

 

I've heard from a couple people that one "should" score in the 90th percentile, or that anything below the 90th percentile means they aren't on grade level.

 

Thoughts?

Huh.

My dd was in brick and mortar for years and took the ITBS. I was under the impression that 60th would be fine - as in, "60th percentile" meant that your child scored that compared to other students their age/grade. In my book, 60th is perfectly fine. Here, 90th qualifies you to apply to the gifted school (don't get me started on that, by the way).

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i just realized the age of your kids. honestly, i would not gauge "behind" by comparing your kids to PS standards at all. i would base it on progress only. my son is only 8. i do have an idea of course of where he is in comparison to his PS peers, but i do not use that to determine his progress. i base his progress on his own growth throughout each school year. that is what he is evaluated on at the end of the year. that is what tells me if his learning is on track or if there are obstacles & struggles that need addressing.

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I find the question impossible to answer. Being behind can be sign of a developmental or learning disability, in which case it would be important to address it as early as possible. Being behind can also be just having a late start or not using consistent schooling or being a late bloomer - all of which can be remedied more easily.

 

:iagree: I do think up until about second grade or so, it may be harder to see what's a learning disability vs. a late bloomer, but maybe not. I think, barring any true disabilities, a child is going to be progressing at least somewhat, even if it's just a little, but I think they can make huge leaps at once, and some kids are more prone to that than others. I think barring any real issues, a child may well catch up very quickly.

 

My DD was a very early reader and has always been pretty quick to meet developmental milestones. My first son simply was not ready to read at 6, and I think if he'd gone another year, I might have started looking into testing for a disability. But in my heart, I didn't think there was a problem, and I could see him making *some* progress, even small. In a year, he's made a TON of progress in reading, math ability, social ability, etc. It seems obvious to all who know him that he's a late bloomer and is just fine but has needed some extra time.

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They don't sound behind to me. (If they are capable and you don't ramp it up soon, I do think you are shortchanging their future. If this is all they are capable of, it sounds fine.) If you are worried they are behind I would test them with the CAT and see what the numbers really are. I don't ever aim to teach writing like the public schools, but after Christmas of third grade, I have them write a paragraph a day until it is easy for them.

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This has given me a bit to think about.

We were/are considering enrolling our dd next year in a local Catholic school. The head of the school suggested holding her back a year because of language arts and dyslexia. She appears to be "ahead" in math and scientific understanding; behind in most areas of language arts and reading *on* grade level (though not easily). She is technically a 6th grader.

She was a pre-term birth (by a bit more than a month. I say this because it was something we were told we *should* take into consideration given her birthday. She only makes the cutoff by a week or so; had she been born on time, she would be a grade lower than she is now.

The only reason I'm mentioning/noticing this now is because, at times, I question the dyslexia diagnosis and wonder if she isn't, possibly, simply functioning where she *should* be functioning, biologically - as a bright fifth grader. Her friends are in fifth grade and she doesn't appear, despite the dyslexia dx, to be struggling at all compared to her friends and is making significant progress in line with a fifth grade level, despite us having dropped all dyslexia specific learning materials. In other words, she is able to easily do the fifth grade material she is presented with now, that she wasn't able to do last year.

:glare:

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I didn't vote in the poll. But being behind at any age can be a problem. My nephew is five and he's very behind in his speech. Still very difficult to understand and doesn't speak in multiple sentences. But if he were only slightly behind, I wouldn't be worried about it. I don't think it's a matter of what age you start to worry, it's a matter of how behind the child is and in how many areas.

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I don't think there is any reason to use the exact same curriculum for each. While the same age, they have different talents. Let them work at their own levels. It will help them with both their strengths and their weaknesses.

:iagree: Saying this gently, I really think you need to separate language arts and math. Treat them like you would if they were years apart because from the sounds of it they are skills apart and need to work on their level. I have twins too and it's hard to compare them because one has LD's. The 3R's should also be your focus right now - other subjects can be combined and you can rotate them. :)

Edited by Just Jane
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I hesitated to start this thread and now I'm so glad I did. I really appreciate the responses and feel I've received a lot of wisdom.

 

I think my inclination is I've got a child who is both a later bloomer and very likely has some underlying deeper learning issues that are starting to show.

 

I think I have probably made a mistake keeping them together in curriculum. That includes keeping my more challenged child with his twin in language arts. He probably has an inclination there I should be fostering more purposefully. I certainly need to pull them apart in math as much as I wish we could stay together.

 

In my gut I believe I have been too relaxed with pacing. I think, reading this thread, that my adjustments in pacing for mastery or developmental stuff is probably ok or even good. But I think some of our pacing is because of my thinking that, because we school year round and etc., it's been no issue to take a day to just read books and go to the park. Some of that is ok but I think I need to be more disciplined with myself. I like the idea of keeping a record for a bit and seeing how the time spent really averages.

Edited by sbgrace
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Well, based on my experience, being behind is a warning signal up to second grade. By third grade, it needs to come together and the child needs to catch up or you can have a serious problem on your hands.

 

If you get too far behind, you will never get caught up. I've seen it too much with homeschooling friends of mine. Their philosophy was very laid back, let's just explore our world and take our time, smell the roses, lay outside on a blanket and read a fun book. That's great occasionally, but if that's your educational philosophy, your kids are going to be in a world of hurt by junior high age, and they may never catch up unless you're willing to school all year around through high school and increase your workload and intensity dramatically.

 

Unfortunately, school is work. Hard work. And kids don't like it. They whine, they complain, they dawdle, and for some reason homeschooling parents think this means they need to readjust their entire curriculum. "Oh, but little Suzy isn't enjoying her math, I need to switch." Uh, no you don't, you need to get a backbone and make Suzy do her math. I'm not saying be a hard nose about it, just be sensible. My kids whined about their work constantly....the only thing they loved was KONOS. My response when the math whining started was (and still is with my youngest), "Yep, it's hard and it's no fun. Tough. You have to do it anyway. Then we can do the fun stuff."

 

And it's important to remember that being rigorous and keeping your kids on grade level (or above, which is what I prefer, since I think grade level academics in PS these days are much below what grade level was when I was in school thirty years ago) doesn't mean that school is not enjoyable. We have a blast doing school. We're dissecting sheep hearts this week, and my son (and his PS friends who are joining us) can't wait. We do projects, play games and have enjoyable activities every day. We also do drill and kill in math, Latin, grammar, etc. And I think it's necessary. Life isn't always fun. School isn't always fun. Work isn't always fun. Guess what, you still have to do it.

 

If the child is behind because of mom's lazy habits, then she needs to get her rear in gear. She is solely responsible for the education of her children. If she can't work up enough self-discipline and organization to give her child a decent education and keep them on task and progressing, maybe she's not cut out to be a homeschooling mom. It is not fair to the child and will put him or her at a disadvantage throughout life because mom wasn't committed enough to that child's well being to get off the internet and actually educate him. It's sad, but I've seen it happen more than once. These kids are now struggling through life, unable to cut it at college, struggling to hold down a minimum wage job, and having difficulty doing anything that's "hard", because mom dropped the ball and let them play all day, doing only minimum work, and using books a grade or two below where Suzy was supposed to be, because they never finished the work from the previous year.

 

There comes a point where being behind is really educational negligence in disguise.

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I think it depends too much on individual factors to really say. Learning disabilities, different scopes and sequences of skills and information, b&m school vs. homeschool... Those are all huge factors.

 

I think it's never too late to catch up. But I think b&m school tends to make that difficult pretty early on, with a big bump in 3rd/4th grade and another big leap in middle school. But those aren't hurdles in homeschooling, so there's no reason it would be an issue if you're just homeschooling.

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I agree with the PPs about separating them for language arts and math. These are the skill subjects and the only ones I'd worry about being "behind" in for elementary school because (a) skills build on each other and (b) being behind in these skills can sometimes be a sign of LDs.

 

While I'm not hs-ing my 9 y.o. twins, they are at different places in math and language arts at school (one further ahead in math though they are both ahead to some extent, the other further ahead in language arts). It's funny, because on the one hand their abilities are not all that different on paper (test results from private testing around first grade) but their different personalities (and different teachers) have caused their skill development to occur at different rates

 

With regard to being behind in 3rd grade, I would take that as a sign to do something (consider whether the curricula are working, consider the overall student with regard to possible testing, etc.), with the goal being to make sure the student's skills are no longer behind by the end of middle school, so that they can reach their full high school potential for college admissions purposes.

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I'll just put it all out there like I did my friend. I want to know if I'm messing my kids up!

 

We are 8 and in 3rd grade.

 

My boys both read well. We are in Phonics Road 2 so behind in language arts spelling/composition. This was intentional on my part. I didn't think my boys were ready for the writing intensity of later levels but I wanted the Phonics Road approach so I delayed and went slowly. I know we don't match public school kids in writing or spelling. I have a naturally good speller and a struggler. We have done very little composition beyond sentences and extremely simple guided paragraphs. There has been very little grammar instruction so far in the program. What we have done is quite basic.

 

I have switched math curriculum more than once and went back to the beginning each time I switch. This was because what I used originally wasn't working for one child and finding what would work took some time. I didn't want gaps so I would start at the beginning with a switch.

 

So we are a bit past 1/2 way through 2nd grade math with a Singapore type approach (Math in Focus). They completed through 1/2 of RightStart C so we have a smattering of skills in other ways. They have been exposed to division but one particularly just isn't getting it solidly. I hope that will come in time. I suspect one child would test well ahead of where he really is, textbook wise, in math. The other probably would test 2nd grade. I'm thinking of parking a little and working on multiplication and division concepts with c-rods to see if it helps my struggling one. But then he'll be that much more behind in the text. My inclination in the past has always been quality over quantity so I would have stopped. Now I don't know what to do.

 

The other thing is me. We school year round and often on Saturdays. So I tend to be very flexible with our schedule figuring it will all even out eventually. For example we have something in the morning tomorrow and I know we probably won't get much if any school done. This has never bothered me but maybe it should? Maybe I'm too relaxed.

 

Maybe now it's time to schedule your flexibility? :D We are pretty casual here and take lots of time to smell the roses too, but it's also kind of built into the schedule. I did feel like 3rd was starting to get serious and with DS9 in 4th now, even more so, and 5th is looming... LOL So, think about how you want to feel in August of 2013 and make goals to create that.

 

I hesitated to start this thread and now I'm so glad I did. I really appreciate the responses and feel I've received a lot of wisdom.

 

I think my inclination is I've got a child who is both a later bloomer and very likely has some underlying deeper learning issues that are starting to show.

 

I think I have probably made a mistake keeping them together in curriculum. That includes keeping my more challenged child with his twin in language arts. He probably has an inclination there I should be fostering more purposefully. I certainly need to pull them apart in math as much as I wish we could stay together.

 

In my gut I believe I have been too relaxed with pacing. I think, reading this thread, that my adjustments in pacing for mastery or developmental stuff is probably ok or even good. But I think some of our pacing is because of my thinking that, because we school year round and etc., it's been no issue to take a day to just read books and go to the park. Some of that is ok but I think I need to be more disciplined with myself. I like the idea of keeping a record for a bit and seeing how the time spent really averages.

 

Don't beat yourself up for keeping them together. It would be my natural desire too. When kids are exactly the same age, I imagine it might be hard on the self-esteem of one for the other to be ahead. Is your strong language student also your strong math student? Do you have one who is stronger in all ways? Ideally, they would balance out somewhat but if this is the case, I would bend over backwards to find less obvious, not necessarily academic strengths in the child who is struggling more and give high praise in those areas, point out that there are all different kinds of strengths. I would strongly consider teaching them skill subjects at completely different times, working one-on-one with LA and math. My kids are each 19 months apart and we do content work together, folding in some skill work, but all "official" curriculum for skill work is done at separate times and, yes, DD is gaining on DS9 rapidly in the LA department. It is a natural gift for her. But he has other gifts and there is balance, so no hurt feelings.

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Well, part of it is a point at which being behind can really start causing issues. The other is how much "behind" one is. As a person with a child who was behind quite a bit, I worried. But I also knew he'd do what he could when he could. I knew also that many kids are just late bloomers then bloom pretty fast. This is what he did. Starting 7th grade, he was about a 3rd grade level (maybe a tad lower in some ways). By the end of 7th grade, he was low 7th grade level. He did WAY more in that one year than he had in all the years before, academically speaking. It is like all that exposure "clicked."

 

As for "neglect" causing a child to be behind? I think that most of those kids can catch up in a year or two in terms of level of 3R's. Of course, there are other benefits to homeschooling consistently during those years too though.

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I've heard from a couple people that one "should" score in the 90th percentile, or that anything below the 90th percentile means they aren't on grade level.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think that's silly and piling an unrealistic expectation on and I say that as someone whose son does score in the 90s for each achievement test he has taken. Usually 99% for anything related to reading and 93-96% for math. It is a nationally normed test. Most kids will be below 90% and personally I just would not worry if a child was consistently about the 60th percentile. The only time I'd worry is if I was told my kid was scoring far below where he had been scoring. That is different for each kid.

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When do you think "behind" becomes more of a problem? At what age do you think being "behind" makes it difficult to catch up--either in content or mastery of an important subject?

 

Elementary aged children are all over the map when it comes to ability.

Our son didn't learn to read well 'til about age ten-ish. His reading ability now is unbelievable. There is no way I could have had him at what we consider an adequate writing ability in elementary. We're using this year to get him on track for high school. It is SO incredibly easy to bring a middle school aged child up to speed.

 

With our daughter Elizabeth we very intentionally chose to delay formal mathematics until fifth grade. We did NO formal math. I would assume that would be "behind" in most folks' minds. She started with a fifth grade textbook this year and so far we haven't had any problems. I don't foresee "catching up" to be an issue.

 

I see pushing elementary children before they are capable as a serious problem.

 

I see having high school children who aren't in any way prepared to function outside the home as a serious problem.

 

But I see middle school as the perfect time to bring our children up to speed in any areas they will need in order to be prepared to take on the classes they'll need in high school. :001_smile:

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Well, based on my experience, being behind is a warning signal up to second grade. By third grade, it needs to come together and the child needs to catch up or you can have a serious problem on your hands.

 

If you get too far behind, you will never get caught up. I've seen it too much with homeschooling friends of mine. Their philosophy was very laid back, let's just explore our world and take our time, smell the roses, lay outside on a blanket and read a fun book. That's great occasionally, but if that's your educational philosophy, your kids are going to be in a world of hurt by junior high age, and they may never catch up unless you're willing to school all year around through high school and increase your workload and intensity dramatically.

 

If the child is behind because of mom's lazy habits, then she needs to get her rear in gear. She is solely responsible for the education of her children. If she can't work up enough self-discipline and organization to give her child a decent education and keep them on task and progressing, maybe she's not cut out to be a homeschooling mom. It is not fair to the child and will put him or her at a disadvantage throughout life because mom wasn't committed enough to that child's well being to get off the internet and actually educate him. It's sad, but I've seen it happen more than once. These kids are now struggling through life, unable to cut it at college, struggling to hold down a minimum wage job, and having difficulty doing anything that's "hard", because mom dropped the ball and let them play all day, doing only minimum work, and using books a grade or two below where Suzy was supposed to be, because they never finished the work from the previous year.

 

There comes a point where being behind is really educational negligence in disguise.

 

 

I always find posts like this incredibly interesting, especially because in almost all homeschool communities other than this board, all I ever hear is to "not worry at all about how much you do" or "you could do nothing but read aloud to them all year, and they would be fine" or "if all you did today for school was Bible and devotion, it's been a good school day."

 

Also, generally speaking, I never hear about homeschool grads struggling or having minimum wage jobs as adults. The assumption is that if you're caring parent, homeschooling will be a fabulous success, end of story.

 

People will probably get mad at me for saying this, but I believe Todd Wilson is a big proponent of the "Don't worry about it; whatever you're doing is fine; just the fact that God gave you children means you're a perfect homeschooling parent," etc mindset.

 

If there are, in fact, "homeschool failures," it almost feels a dirty little well-kept secret. Or maybe many people don't realize it's possible?

 

Anyway, I'd be curious if you could elaborate a little on what you've seen.

At what point does it become "educational neglect"? Where do you draw the line between having a relaxed style and being lazy and neglectful?

 

Could you give more details on these things you've "seen happen more than once"? Why did it happen? Did the family not know they were behind, or did they know, but dismiss it? And when it did, was the family surprised? {I have, for example, known unschooling families who kids ended up with minimum wage jobs, but everybody in the family said that was perfectly fine, because the grown kids were happy.}

 

What would you consider a specific "Mom lazy habit"? Uh ... so I can see whether or not I'm doing them.

 

Or maybe this needs to move to start a new thread ...?

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I don't think it's ever okay to be behind where the public schools would be on basic skills, unless there's an identified reason and one is doing what one can to remedy that.

 

Given what you've written though, it isn't at all clear that that's the case. Just because a given home school book says "3" on it doesn't mean that it's 3rd grade for your area, ykwim? I'd probably work on accelerating things a bit though, especially the math.

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If a parent subscribes to "better late than early" I think a child can make up K-5 pretty quickly. After that, it become increasingly harder.

 

I need clarification - do you mean a child can make up Kindergarten through 5th grade pretty quickly during 5th grade & beyond or do you mean something else?

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What would "behind" look like on a standardized test?

 

The reason I ask is because I often worry about my child being behind. For the last two years she has scored in the 60th percentile on the ITBS. (Many of the questions she misses because of the time limit.)

 

I've heard from a couple people that one "should" score in the 90th percentile, or that anything below the 90th percentile means they aren't on grade level.

 

I thought that, by definition, "on grade level" was the 50th percentile?

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I need clarification - do you mean a child can make up Kindergarten through 5th grade pretty quickly during 5th grade & beyond or do you mean something else?

 

I think your average 5th grader could easily learn the reading and arithmetic from grades K - 4 in about a month, especially if tutored (ie. home-schooled).

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I think your average 5th grader could easily learn the reading and arithmetic from grades K - 4 in about a month, especially if tutored (ie. home-schooled).

 

It took my tutored student 6 months to go from first to fourth in math. That doesn't disprove your theory, of course, especially since she is 16 and had a lifetime of wrong ideas about math to correct. She also has to overcome some math phobia stemming from years of trying to hide her confusion.

 

I'd guess an actual fifth grader would have much less to un-learn.

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I always find posts like this incredibly interesting, especially because in almost all homeschool communities other than this board, all I ever hear is to "not worry at all about how much you do" or "you could do nothing but read aloud to them all year, and they would be fine" or "if all you did today for school was Bible and devotion, it's been a good school day."

 

Also, generally speaking, I never hear about homeschool grads struggling or having minimum wage jobs as adults. The assumption is that if you're caring parent, homeschooling will be a fabulous success, end of story.

 

People will probably get mad at me for saying this, but I believe Todd Wilson is a big proponent of the "Don't worry about it; whatever you're doing is fine; just the fact that God gave you children means you're a perfect homeschooling parent," etc mindset.

 

If there are, in fact, "homeschool failures," it almost feels a dirty little well-kept secret. Or maybe many people don't realize it's possible?

 

Anyway, I'd be curious if you could elaborate a little on what you've seen.

At what point does it become "educational neglect"? Where do you draw the line between having a relaxed style and being lazy and neglectful?

 

Could you give more details on these things you've "seen happen more than once"? Why did it happen? Did the family not know they were behind, or did they know, but dismiss it? And when it did, was the family surprised? {I have, for example, known unschooling families who kids ended up with minimum wage jobs, but everybody in the family said that was perfectly fine, because the grown kids were happy.}

 

What would you consider a specific "Mom lazy habit"? Uh ... so I can see whether or not I'm doing them.

 

Or maybe this needs to move to start a new thread ...?

 

You bet, I'm happy to explain more. But I do want to preface this post by saying that I am NOT in any way referring to anyone in this thread or on this board or passing judgement on the homeschooling methods of anyone on this board. I don't know anybody here well enough to know how you homeschool or how that looks in your home. This post is based on personal experience I've had with people IRL. And since I've been homeschooling since the Stone Age :lol:, I've been lucky enough to see children who've "grown up" homeschooling and are now adults.

 

So, yes, you're right, I do think homeschooling failure is a "dirty little secret". I also say "HA" to all the people who repeat the mantra of "just keeping your kids at home means you're doing a better job", "reading aloud all day is good enough", "the baby IS the lesson", "just let them explore their own interests and they'll learn much more than they would in PS". Baloney. It's a lie, and I'm sorry that so many young homeschooling moms have bought into it.

 

The homeschoolers I've come across who were raised that way are now all adults or in their high school years. Most are struggling. A few are not, because they are exceptionally intelligent (far more than average) and have excelled IN SPITE of educational neglect, not because of it.

 

Family A had children who were all neurotypical, except one who had Down's Syndrome. The family did not believe in formal schoolwork. The children could still not read fluently by the time they were in the fifth grade. In fact, they could barely read at all. They could not do even the four basic math operations by high school age. They are now working in minimum wage jobs (pizza delivery, fast food, etc.), because they do not have the skills necessary to deal with life.

 

Family B embraced an educational philosophy that is very popular here in Utah...Tjed. While it sounds great on the surface, in practice it's an abysmal failure. The children are all behind in their work, and since there seems to be no formal instruction on the part of the mother...kids are supposed to WANT to learn because they see the mother's example of self-education...no learning is taking place. These kids are struggling with trying to catch up in a public high school (mom puts them in there in ninth grade), and with now feeling like failures. They are disillusioned with the entire homeschool way of life and feel like their mother has cheated them out of an education.

 

Another family fully embraced the whole "oh, just read aloud, play, take walks and enjoy being together" philosophy of homeschooling. Guess what? Now the kids are in junior high and nobody is enjoying the frustration, anger, resentment, moodiness and lack of self-esteem that rules their home. Johnny and Suzy have figured out that they know very little compared to their friends in church and in the neighborhood and they are now being teased for it. The mother called me in tears the other day because children were making fun of her son and he is now growing very angry. He wants to go to public middle school and the mother doesn't want him there for two reasons. One, it's a terrible environment (which I agree with) and two...he can't do the work. It breaks my heart.

 

What really makes me sad is that I feel that when these women felt or expressed doubt in what they were doing, or where their children were...education-wise, they were fed that same tired old line by other well meaning homeschooling moms..."Oh, don't worry, you can catch up. You're still doing much better than anything the public schools are doing."

 

I learned my lesson very quickly when my son was in fifth grade. I'd just given birth to my third child and school definitely took a back seat for awhile. Not so much when he was an infant (that was easy), but when he turned one. He was a very busy kid, always into everything, and my oldest son's education suffered because the toddler took all my attention. HUGE mistake!! Thank goodness I had started my son earlier than he would have started in PS (late birthday), because I needed to hold him back a year to get him caught up. I think it's a myth that an entire elementary school education can be caught up in one good seventh grade year.

 

What I have learned over 18 years of homeschooling is that it has to be rigorous. It has to be thorough. It takes time...lots of time. It is inconvenient. It's not always fun. It's expensive. It is mind numbing, physically exhausting, head bangingly frustrating and will suck out every ounce of energy, enthusiasm and joy you have in you at times. It is also the BEST decision I ever made in my life. My oldest two kids are such a joy. They have a zest for life and a love of learning that I know would have been destroyed in an institutional school setting. They are excelling in their university work. Their professors compliment their work ethic, knowledge and communications skills constantly. As my dd's history professor said recently, "How did you learn so much history?" :lol:

 

This makes me happier than you know, because I was always the parent in my homeschooling circle who was "mean". I made my kids work. They had to learn Latin for gosh sake. :D They diagrammed sentences. They did A LOT of math. They had to read a ton of books. They had a real microscope, bunsen burners, and their own disection tools. They worked when their other friends didn't. And it was worth every second. We also did lots of fun activities, field trips and read alouds. They kept nature notebooks and spent hours outside. In spring and fall, we did ALL of our schoolwork out of doors. But we did work.

 

I guess I would say that if any mother is concerned that her kids are behind, aren't doing enough work, or need to be more diligent, then she's probably right. If she thinks she's spending too much time on the internet, or on her Kindle, or scrapbooking, crafting, shopping...whatever...then she's probably right. We know what we need to do as homeschooling moms. The trick is doing it. :D

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