Anyone unschool?

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[Corraleno]

I have to insert a thank you in this thread. The Eide's blog is very interesting. I can see my ds in these descriptions. I'm always trying to figure out how to best teach towards him.

The Eides have a wonderful video on their site called The Turkey and the Crow: The Tension Between Expertise and Creativity, which does a wonderful job of highlighting the strengths of these kinds of kids. I also highly recommend their books The Mislabeled Child and The Dyslexic Advantage. Even if you don't think your child is dyslexic (and the Eides are mostly referring to what is called dyseidetic or "stealth" dyslexia, not the more noticeable dysphonetic dyslexia), it is full of information about VSLs and how they think, as well as practical tips for teaching them.

 

fwiw him and dh both love fantastic contraption :) They are so much alike and dh felt traditional school was such a failure for him and I'm working to make sure not to repeat that mistake! Mindstorm is on our wish list and I've been waiting for his reading is solid enough for Scratch- I think it might finally be there. I need to watch more of your suggestions!

My DH was the same way — IQ of 162, but barely made it through school — I have a whole box of his school reports, all complaining that he was lazy, sloppy, never paid attention, etc., when in fact he was working his butt off just trying to keep his head above water. (And meanwhile, he was building rockets and radios and had a sketchbook full of inventions). He got 2Ds and a C on his A-level exams (in the UK) and had to talk his way into University. Luckily someone recognized the spark in him, and he ended up with prestigious research fellowships in the US, then was invited to do a PhD at Cambridge on the basis of his first publication, and now he's a software developer with patents in 7 countries. I'm sometimes tempted to send copies of his patents along with copies of his school reports to some of those teachers who were convinced he'd never amount to anything! (One of them had suggested that he become a TV repairman, since he was obviously not suited to academics, lol.)

 

Have you seen this article about Sir John Gurdon, who just won the Nobel Prize in Medicine? He has a framed copy of one of his school reports, complaining that "he will not listen but will insist on doing his own work his own way" and insisting that his ideas of becoming a scientist are "quite ridiculous" and "would be a sheer waste of time, both on his part and of those who have to teach him." :D

 

Jackie

[Alte Veste Academy]

Yay! I'm so glad that Aimee and Jackie could give you some btdt advice. Keeping you in my thoughts as you start a new approach.

 

:iagree:

 

:grouphug: Amanda.

[Soror]

The Eides have a wonderful video on their site called The Turkey and the Crow: The Tension Between Expertise and Creativity, which does a wonderful job of highlighting the strengths of these kinds of kids. I also highly recommend their books The Mislabeled Child and The Dyslexic Advantage. Even if you don't think your child is dyslexic (and the Eides are mostly referring to what is called dyseidetic or "stealth" dyslexia, not the more noticeable dysphonetic dyslexia), it is full of information about VSLs and how they think, as well as practical tips for teaching them.

 

 

My DH was the same way — IQ of 162, but barely made it through school — I have a whole box of his school reports, all complaining that he was lazy, sloppy, never paid attention, etc., when in fact he was working his butt off just trying to keep his head above water. (And meanwhile, he was building rockets and radios and had a sketchbook full of inventions). He got 2Ds and a C on his A-level exams (in the UK) and had to talk his way into University. Luckily someone recognized the spark in him, and he ended up with prestigious research fellowships in the US, then was invited to do a PhD at Cambridge on the basis of his first publication, and now he's a software developer with patents in 7 countries. I'm sometimes tempted to send copies of his patents along with copies of his school reports to some of those teachers who were convinced he'd never amount to anything! (One of them had suggested that he become a TV repairman, since he was obviously not suited to academics, lol.)

 

Have you seen this article about Sir John Gurdon, who just won the Nobel Prize in Medicine? He has a framed copy of one of his school reports, complaining that "he will not listen but will insist on doing his own work his own way" and insisting that his ideas of becoming a scientist are "quite ridiculous" and "would be a sheer waste of time, both on his part and of those who have to teach him." :D

 

Jackie

(hijack) thanks so much. I've been reading their blogs all morning(and have previously read both of those books). I've actually thought ds was dyslexic for quite awhile but some things didn't add quite up and I think he might be more "stealth dyslexic." From my reading on WTM though I've been able to accommodate his difficulties and play up his strengths. I let him dictate to me and I scribe. I read to him for word problems and such to make sure he understands. We do very little written output. I've learned to interpret his writing and can figure out his answers despite the reversals.

 

One thing I had just realized he does and I didn't know why I understand better now. He is reading longer books now and is reading about at the 4th grade level - which is amazing considering our struggles. However in individual passages and words he still adds letters, switches syllables and seems to just make stuff up at time. I thought that it was due to inattentiveness. We've worked a ton on phonics but now I read that this is actually quite common. His comprehension is great on longer passages and books but not so great for short bits.

 

I was reading there where it talks about dyslexia more common from parents that are engineers. That is not dh's official job but that is what he does. He couldn't make it through college but works circles around all the "official" engineers. Dh scribes to me at times as well, well anytime that I will he much prefers that I write for him. I never thought about it but it makes me wonder.

 

Anyway, much thanks. I really want to be able to play up to his strengths. Thank goodness to this board for so much great info. We started first grade math despite that he couldn't count past 3 and he has excelled. He started to learn to read even though he couldn't say the alphabet and still cannot always say it correctly, even now reading at the 4th grade level. Right Start Math and now Beast Academy have been a blessing to him.

 

The experience of others that have been there and can offer suggestions is so fabulous. All kids are different but to at least have a starting point is monumental.

(hijack)

[Soror]

sign him up on this "maker" site for kids and let him do the challenges and earn badges

Jackie

 

this site is totally awesome!

[Saddlemomma]

Okay, you said he likes anything to do with video games. Then why not explore a curriculum that teaches how to design video games? Something like the following:

 

http://www.computerscienceforkids.com

http://www.homeschoolprogramming.com/teencoder/teencoder_games.php

http://www.c3cyberclub.com/

 

There are many more sites out there. It might be worth a try. :grouphug:

[5LittleMonkeys]

Amanda - I'm so glad you are feeling a bit of relief and have, hopefully, some new hope. Your posts have brought some memories forward of when I was trying to learn enough about my dd in order to help her and one thing that seemed to be a huge issue in the beginning was this....

 

If she felt I was directing her toward getting interested in something or in any way trying to guide her down one path or another (unless she specifically asked for guidance in smoothing out her thinking) she would shut down and shut me out. I can't tell you how many times I would show her something and try to be enthusiastic about it and she wouldn't want anything to do with it...until months later when she would happen upon it again and then dive into it without saying a word to me about it. It had to be on her terms, her time frame, her idea. I'm not saying that she was being purposefully difficult, she wasn't trying to be obtuse or contrary, it is just the way her brain works. If her brain wasn't ready to receive that information it would turn off. I don't know how else to describe it.

 

So, in the beginning, don't get discouraged if he turns his nose up at most of what you place in front of him. Just keep putting things out there and tell him that there's no pressure, just to take a look at some point and see what he thinks. When he does find something that creates a spark DON'T grab the reigns from him. Let him go and just watch, be the spectator. Later when he has his teeth fully sunk into it then become the student. Ask questions, take interest, share his enthusiasm, but stay out of the driver's seat.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to put that out there. You know, that whole try to learn from other's mistakes thing. I told dd once that if she could survive me trying to figure her out I would do everything in my power to continue homeschooling her through highschool. There were a couple years that I didn't think we would ever be able to row in unison but, like I said earlier, this year we seem to finally be in harmony and it is soooo wonderful. Hang in there.:grouphug:

[Alte Veste Academy]

Amanda - I'm so glad you are feeling a bit of relief and have, hopefully, some new hope. Your posts have brought some memories forward of when I was trying to learn enough about my dd in order to help her and one thing that seemed to be a huge issue in the beginning was this....

 

If she felt I was directing her toward getting interested in something or in any way trying to guide her down one path or another (unless she specifically asked for guidance in smoothing out her thinking) she would shut down and shut me out. I can't tell you how many times I would show her something and try to be enthusiastic about it and she wouldn't want anything to do with it...until months later when she would happen upon it again and then dive into it without saying a word to me about it. It had to be on her terms, her time frame, her idea. I'm not saying that she was being purposefully difficult, she wasn't trying to be obtuse or contrary, it is just the way her brain works. If her brain wasn't ready to receive that information it would turn off. I don't know how else to describe it.

 

So, in the beginning, don't get discouraged if he turns his nose up at most of what you place in front of him. Just keep putting things out there and tell him that there's no pressure, just to take a look at some point and see what he thinks. When he does find something that creates a spark DON'T grab the reigns from him. Let him go and just watch, be the spectator. Later when he has his teeth fully sunk into it then become the student. Ask questions, take interest, share his enthusiasm, but stay out of the driver's seat.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to put that out there. You know, that whole try to learn from other's mistakes thing. I told dd once that if she could survive me trying to figure her out I would do everything in my power to continue homeschooling her through highschool. There were a couple years that I didn't think we would ever be able to row in unison but, like I said earlier, this year we seem to finally be in harmony and it is soooo wonderful. Hang in there.:grouphug:

 

Yes. Yes, yes, YES! I tried to draw my right-brain/VSL DS9 back into "purposeful" learning after his first grade year and he was suspicious of my efforts, to say the least. :lol: If I suggested something, it couldn't possibly be fun or worthwhile. ;) There was (and still is, to a lesser degree) an inverse relationship between my interest in a subject and his interest in the subject and, of even greater importance, his sustained engagement in that subject.

 

If Mom liked it a lot, was super excited, and had the nerve to announce something so annoying as, "This is gonna be fun!!!" DS9 gave it the stink eye.

 

If Mom couldn't care less (and, best of all, when she concerned/busied herself with other things), DS9 loved it and made it into a pet project, with all the bells and whistles. Mom was allowed to ooh and aah, but that was the absolute, upper limit to my involvement. This was made crystal clear by the reappearance of the previously mentioned stink-eye when I made any "helpful" suggestions or recommendations. :D

 

Some of these kids really need a reason to learn everything and resist anything we put out there without a purpose they can see at that moment. Without a link to any concrete and incredibly interesting real life learning opportunity or connection, my DS is skeptical of the usefulness of a great deal of information. :tongue_smilie: I now see his skepticism as a form of innate intelligence though, a sort of intellectual assertiveness.

 

After a little while of me handling him with kid gloves, he has learned to trust me. He is willing to learn simply for learning's sake because he trusts me not to have him work without a purpose. I do always take pains to express the purpose with him, though, even now. I don't ever hand him work without giving a reason. These days, I would say we're balancing at about 50/50 between child-led and teacher-directed, with lots of give and take. I might direct and then let him lead or provide a bit of direction after he leads us to a new place. My-way-or-the-highway would never work here, but that's not really my nature anyway. There has got to be a good relationship and mutual respect. And it can be exhausting to get that back but we have to and we have to be the ones to take the first step. I've said it before, but I'll say it again, the first move toward change is not going to come from the kid. Kids make the choices of kids, leaving adults have to make the choices of adults...even when we want to act like kids. Boy, do I need to hear these words myself from time to time...

[Corraleno]

I've actually thought ds was dyslexic for quite awhile but some things didn't add quite up and I think he might be more "stealth dyslexic." From my reading on WTM though I've been able to accommodate his difficulties and play up his strengths. I let him dictate to me and I scribe. I read to him for word problems and such to make sure he understands. We do very little written output. I've learned to interpret his writing and can figure out his answers despite the reversals.

I think in some ways gifted/dyslexic/VSL kids are "twice cursed," because their dyslexia doesn't manifest in the typical dysphonetic way, plus their giftedness allows them to compensate just enough to keep them below the cutoff for gifted services and above the threshold for LD services. The educational psychologist who tested my son recognized that he had significant verbal processing issues, but said that he "couldn't be dyslexic because his phonemic awareness is fine." She'd never heard of dyseidetic dyslexia and was quite adamant that the only diagnostic for dyslexia was lack of phonemic awareness. :glare:

 

The main verbal processing problem that VSLs have is that English is not their first language — images are. Because they think in images, they often really struggle to put their thoughts into words, and they struggle to read texts where it's difficult to "picture" what's going on. That's why they can be avid readers of adventure stories (where colorful, descriptive language helps them "see" the story), or of well-illustrated books on history or science, and yet when they're faced with having to summarize a short passage of text taken out of context, or memorize dozens of discrete facts from a textbook chapter, they can draw a total blank.

 

It really makes me sad when I see parents or teachers interpreting this as a "character issue" — i.e. that the child is just "being lazy" or "refusing to work," or whatever. I wish I could sit them down and read them some physics in Spanish (or some other language they don't speak fluently), and then demand that they quickly summarize it, and criticize them if they take too long or draw a blank. Maybe then they'd realize that these kids are not just lazy or disobedient. :(

 

Jackie

[5LittleMonkeys]

Y He is willing to learn simply for learning's sake because he trusts me not to have him work without a purpose. I do always take pains to express the purpose with him, though, even now. I don't ever hand him work without giving a reason. These days, I would say we're balancing at about 50/50 between child-led and teacher-directed, with lots of give and take. I might direct and then let him lead or provide a bit of direction after he leads us to a new place. My-way-or-the-highway would never work here, but that's not really my nature anyway. There has got to be a good relationship and mutual respect. And it can be exhausting to get that back but we have to and we have to be the ones to take the first step. I've said it before, but I'll say it again, the first move toward change is not going to come from the kid. Kids make the choices of kids, leaving adults have to make the choices of adults...even when we want to act like kids. Boy, do I need to hear these words myself from time to time...

 

I agree with all of this, but I bolded and increased the font on one particular phrase. Children like this MUST see a purpose for what they are tasked to do. This is why learning things out of context is especially frustrating for them - until, as Alte Vista describes, they reach a point of trust that you won't give them busy work or work that has no meaning. Writing out of context should be turned into writing about what they are learning or passionate about. Language Arts should be learned while writing. Math needs to be taught with real world applications.

 

It seems though, with my own dd, that once she reached a certain maturity level, she is more easily able to learn things out of context if she understands and agrees with the purpose behind doing so. Dd is using a grammar text this year as well as WWS, per her request, and doing fine with it, BUT she still applies those concepts to her own (personal) writing in order to cement them. The grammar text has meaning and purpose to her now because she wants her writing to improve. WWS has purpose because she now has the maturity to see that it too will help her improve her writing. I don't know if this is the case with other children like this or not...just my own experience.

[Corraleno]

Dd is using a grammar text this year as well as WWS, per her request, and doing fine with it, BUT she still applies those concepts to her own (personal) writing in order to cement them. The grammar text has meaning and purpose to her now because she wants her writing to improve. WWS has purpose because she now has the maturity to see that it too will help her improve her writing. I don't know if this is the case with other children like this or not...just my own experience.

The same thing happened with my DS; in his case, he learned grammar because he wanted to learn Greek. I could have forced him through years of grammar drill, with little effect because (1) he had no interest in it, (2) he could see no use for it, and (3) parts-to-whole drill & kill is the exact opposite of the way he learns.

 

When he decided he wanted to learn Greek, I told him he would need a crash course in grammar, so he did Lukeion's Barbarian Diagrammarian course as a 4-week summer intensive. Because the class was very intensive/immersive and very visual (lots of color coded charts and diagrams), he not only learned and retained English grammar, he found it so interesting he started reading linguisitics books, watching TC linguistics lectures, and doing computational linguistics exercises for fun! Now he's passionately interested in languages, has added Latin to Greek this year, and plans to learn Turkish, Mongolian, Sanskrit, Hittite, Arabic, and as many other languages as he can!

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

After a little while of me handling him with kid gloves, he has learned to trust me. He is willing to learn simply for learning's sake because he trusts me not to have him work without a purpose. I do always take pains to express the purpose with him, though, even now. ... There has got to be a good relationship and mutual respect. And it can be exhausting to get that back but we have to and we have to be the ones to take the first step.

Children like this MUST see a purpose for what they are tasked to do. This is why learning things out of context is especially frustrating for them - until, as Alte Vista describes, they reach a point of trust that you won't give them busy work or work that has no meaning.

 

I just wanted to further emphasize what Kristin & Aime have said about the need for trust and a good relationship based on mutual respect. I think when parents have been battling a child over these issues for several years, it can be really really hard to step back and trust the process that we're describing here. I can imagine many parents thinking "well, my child does nothing unless I force him, so if I stop forcing, then things will only get worse."

 

And to begin with that might be true ("worse" meaning nothing that looks remotely like academics gets done), but once that pattern of parent pushing/kid pushing back is broken, and the child starts to relax and realize he doesn't have to put all his energy into resisting what's being forced on him, then things will get much much better. Eventually, you'll both learn to trust each other, and then once you start working as a team, there's truly no limit to what these kids can accomplish. They will often push themselves harder and go in directions you would never have imagined!

 

Jackie

[rafiki]

nt

[rafiki]

nt

[PeterPan]

Amanda, you were so low in this thread, I hope you're doing a bit better! I just wanted to come in at the tail end here and say that when you've got something that has been going on for THAT LONG, sometimes it's time to do some evals. When you say he has some OCD traits and is distractible, those things have names. And sometimes when you get the evals and get those names, it helps you start putting your energy into what to DO about it instead of just being frustrated wondering what it is.

 

And for the record, my dd couldn't do WWS at 10, 11, or 12 like your kids. She's doing it now at 13. There's a whole lot in WTM that is a good way of seeing the sequence of skills but a crummy way of teaching a specific child. Some things are so DRY they tend to SUCK THE LIFE out of a child. HO would be in that category. I could never have handed that to my dd. At that age she was doing snap circuits and kits and computer history (VP self-paced) and laughing grammar with me as we did it together on a whiteboard. Nuts, she's still doing hands-on science and computer subjects and things on the whiteboard. She's just not a dry kind of person.

 

Shake things up, drop a couple things, drop anything that's dry, drop anything that has you saying your kid is BAD, and see where that gets you. Sometimes one or two changes can have a radical improvement in your day. I don't think kids at this age are BAD, they just aren't connected with. Meanwhile start looking into evals. Typically takes 1-3 months to get in, and it sounds like it's time for some answers. Then you'll know where to funnel your energy. You might need more changes than you realize, things you haven't thought of.

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[~Amanda~]

Now that I'm not at work, I'm able to look some of this stuff up, and check into stuff.

 

Looking at this

 

http://child-1st.typepad.com/my_weblog/2010/01/is-my-child-a-visualspatial-learner.html

 

THIS describes my DD; at least the first 6 or so do. The last 2 (about building and construction) fit my son

 

However, I found a link describing gifted children that describes my son to a T; I can't find it now though :-/

[~Amanda~]

Found it.

 

http://www.byrdseed.com/five-unexpected-traits-of-gifted-students/

[elegantlion]

I'm another mom with one of those "quirky" learners. Ds didn't read well until almost 9, still struggles with writing and some easy math concepts. He's VSL, but not been tested for anything. Between ages 9-11 I pulled my hair out trying to figure out HOW to teach this child.

 

Many of Jackie's prior posts were so helpful to me. They helped me embrace this child that seemed so smart, yet gave me a blank stare when I asked him to write a sentence.

 

We're in our first year of high school and it looks quite different than what I had imagined only a few years ago. However, it's a direct reflection of who he is and how he learns.

 

English has always been a struggle for him, yet he relishes studying other languages. We're doing Japanese and Russian, both his requests, both languages I know little about it. We're learning together and he is enthused. He's learning computer programming on his own. This year he is going to do Nanowrimo with me (we're collaborating for his project).

 

I'm a very creative person, but I learn in a linear way. I was a good student in school and it pained me to not be able to translate that to a way to help ds. I spent many days in tears wondering why the methods I knew weren't working for ds.

 

I feel like Alice in Wonderland. We've had to turn everything upside down and backward for ds to truly understand. It's a wild ride and really very cool once you take the stress away.

 

It really does help if you can take some time and see what approach works for him. I still never really know if a particular curriculum will work until we try it. We take a break every 6 weeks so I can tweak or redirect subjects if necessary. It takes some time to realize that's okay. It's like creating a specialized personal evolving curriculum.

 

My picture of homeschooling when we started was vastly different than how it looks today. Hang in there, it will be okay.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Now that I'm not at work, I'm able to look some of this stuff up, and check into stuff.

 

Looking at this

 

http://child-1st.typepad.com/my_weblog/2010/01/is-my-child-a-visualspatial-learner.html

 

THIS describes my DD; at least the first 6 or so do. The last 2 (about building and construction) fit my son

 

However, I found a link describing gifted children that describes my son to a T; I can't find it now though :-/

 

Found it.

 

http://www.byrdseed.com/five-unexpected-traits-of-gifted-students/

 

The plot thickens! :D If your library has it, check out Upside-Down Brilliance. If they don't it is well worth requesting through ILL if your library offers that service. Dreamers, Discoverers & Dynamos was also extraordinarily helpful to me.

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[Corraleno]

We've had to turn everything upside down and backward for ds to truly understand.

Yesterday (while wasting time on Pinterest :tongue_smilie:) I noticed this poster of Bloom's Taxonomy, but because it was a long skinny strip and I was scrolling down, I read it in reverse order — from top to bottom instead of from the "foundation skills" at the bottom to the "higher order thinking skills" at the top. And it suddenly hit me that that's basically the way DS learns — Bloom's Taxonomy turned upside down!

 

The "normal" — verbal, sequential, parts-to-whole — learning sequence, (using the terminology from the poster; there are other versions with slightly different labels) is this:

 

Step 1. Remember (list, name, describe, label)

Step 2. Understand (summarize, rewrite, interpret, restate)

Step 3. Apply (manipulate, examine, change, modify)

Step 4. Analyze (compare, contrast, investigate, infer)

Step 5. Evaluate (question, assess, argue, critique)

Step 6. Create (invent, formulate, compose, construct)

(Notice the similarity to the 3 "stages" of neoclassical education: Grammar focuses on 1 & 2, Logic on 3 & 4, and Rhetoric on 5 & 6.)

 

Now flip that upside down, and you have:

 

1. Create/design/construct (an idea, a model, a novel, a machine, whatever)

2. Assess/evaluate/question (pull it apart, figure it out)

3. Make inferences and investigate further (look for patterns and connections)

4. Change, modify, and examine

5. Understand (the "light bulb" moment when you see how everything fits together)

6. Remember — now you can remember and retain it!

 

The more I've thought about it, the more I think that this is how it works with DS: he needs to start at the top (creation, evaluation, analysis) and work backwards when he's first getting into a subject, but once he's worked his way to the "Remembering" part, he can then go back up the ladder, adding additional levels of understanding, analysis, etc. IOW, I think it's an iterative process for all kinds of learners, it's just that the starting point is very different. Does that make sense?

 

For example, the way DS really came to understand grammar was by (1) jumping in at a very high level of analysis (intensive class + very technical/advanced TC linguistics lectures), and (2) inventing his own language! After he'd worked through that, he has had no trouble at all understanding even the most complex rules of Greek & Latin grammar — he can just immediately see where they fit into the system and what the underlying logic is. I honestly don't know if he would have ever gotten to that point if he'd tried to do it the "usual" parts-to-whole way, drilling grammar concepts bit by bit, year after year.

 

I think it's easy to panic when these kids seem "behind" grade level compared to kids who are starting at the bottom of Bloom's and slowly working their way up — and yet when they're ready for it (and are allowed to learn the way they learn), these kids often tend to jump in right at the top.

 

Jackie

[PeterPan]

Yesterday (while wasting time on Pinterest :tongue_smilie:) I noticed this poster of Bloom's Taxonomy, but because it was a long skinny strip and I was scrolling down, I read it in reverse order — from top to bottom instead of from the "foundation skills" at the bottom to the "higher order thinking skills" at the top. And it suddenly hit me that that's basically the way DS learns — Bloom's Taxonomy turned upside down!

 

The "normal" — verbal, sequential, parts-to-whole — learning sequence, (using the terminology from the poster; there are other versions with slightly different labels) is this:

 

Step 1. Remember (list, name, describe, label)

Step 2. Understand (summarize, rewrite, interpret, restate)

Step 3. Apply (manipulate, examine, change, modify)

Step 4. Analyze (compare, contrast, investigate, infer)

Step 5. Evaluate (question, assess, argue, critique)

Step 6. Create (invent, formulate, compose, construct)

(Notice the similarity to the 3 "stages" of neoclassical education: Grammar focuses on 1 & 2, Logic on 3 & 4, and Rhetoric on 5 & 6.)

 

Now flip that upside down, and you have:

 

1. Create/design/construct (an idea, a model, a novel, a machine, whatever)

2. Assess/evaluate/question (pull it apart, figure it out)

3. Make inferences and investigate further (look for patterns and connections)

4. Change, modify, and examine

5. Understand (the "light bulb" moment when you see how everything fits together)

6. Remember — now you can remember and retain it!

 

 

That's very interesting! I've heard Bloom's taxonomy mentioned but never knew exactly what it was. Your flip is certainly right on for our house!

[Alte Veste Academy]

1. Create/design/construct (an idea, a model, a novel, a machine, whatever)

2. Assess/evaluate/question (pull it apart, figure it out)

3. Make inferences and investigate further (look for patterns and connections)

4. Change, modify, and examine

5. Understand (the "light bulb" moment when you see how everything fits together)

6. Remember — now you can remember and retain it!

Wow, Jackie, I think you're right! This is my DS9 in a nutshell! And he doesn't ever forget...

[Soror]

Jackie- You are brilliant. I was talking to dh about school and the way he learns and that certainly describes him. He is a strong VSL. He thinks of whole to parts. He sees everything in pictures. When I was talking to him about his schooling he could not think of a single teacher or class in school that spoke his language. He said either he already understood what they were talking about and was bored or they would just repeat things over and over the same way which he didn't understand the first time, let alone the 3rd.

 

Ds gets frustrated having to break things down as well, he wants to see the whole picture first, examine it and then figure it out. I have a hard time following his brain at times as well. Like Paula I did good at school but I am a linear thinker, so I try to explain things in that way. I was telling dh I need him to jump in with ds more. He understands how he thinks in a way that I never will. They speak each others language. Ds can already understand a lot of the engineering type things that dh tells me about better than I can. I cannot picture it, whereas they form complete functioning models in their heads that they can manipulate. Ds has already turned my original vision for hs'ing upside down. Not so much in what my goals are but how we are going to get there. I had in my mind that hs would be great because then we could school the way I wanted to learn, so my kids wouldn't miss out. Somehow I forgot to think that my kids might not learn the same way!!! Dd already seems much more like me though, so we will have a chance to test out some other methods and such.

 

eta:

Not that I'm qualified to speak on such things as my eldest is 8. However, I was thinking of you and your kids Amanda when reflecting on my talk with dh. I was thinking how incredibly frustrating and discouraging it must have been for him to never feel like he could do well at anything, even though he was really bright. For your interests and the way you learn to be classified as the wrong way continually must be maddening. I think I would be frank with both of your kids. I would acknowledge the struggle from their perspective. Talk about how you are trying to figure out how to best teach them. Ask them what they think are their strengths and weaknesses. Ask them what they are interested in and let them devote time to studying it, no matter what it is. Solicit their help in reviewing programs you think might be a help. I think some time off would be good as well but I would frame it as such, you are going to take some time away to try and figure out how you can help them learn the best. I'm excited for you to hear that renewed enthusiasm in your voice, good luck to you! Oh, and when you find different things that do work with your kids you need to come back and share :)

Edited October 23, 2012 by soror

[elegantlion]

Funny you should mention Bloom's, Jackie. We spent several days discussing that very thing earlier this year. We being ds and me. The creating part was easy for him to understand. He does that in many subjects. The evaluate and analyze part he has a harder time with.

 

I need to revisit my notes. This is neat website that some ideas on using apps to support Bloom's.

Edited October 23, 2012 by elegantlion

[Greenmama2]

Oh. My goodness!thank you for this. I also saw that on Pinterest last night and didn't even notice that I read it upside down because that is EXACTLY how DD learns. This has been such an epiphany for me :D

Yesterday (while wasting time on Pinterest :tongue_smilie:) I noticed this poster of Bloom's Taxonomy, but because it was a long skinny strip and I was scrolling down, I read it in reverse order — from top to bottom instead of from the "foundation skills" at the bottom to the "higher order thinking skills" at the top. And it suddenly hit me that that's basically the way DS learns — Bloom's Taxonomy turned upside down!

 

The "normal" — verbal, sequential, parts-to-whole — learning sequence, (using the terminology from the poster; there are other versions with slightly different labels) is this:

 

Step 1. Remember (list, name, describe, label)

Step 2. Understand (summarize, rewrite, interpret, restate)

Step 3. Apply (manipulate, examine, change, modify)

Step 4. Analyze (compare, contrast, investigate, infer)

Step 5. Evaluate (question, assess, argue, critique)

Step 6. Create (invent, formulate, compose, construct)

(Notice the similarity to the 3 "stages" of neoclassical education: Grammar focuses on 1 & 2, Logic on 3 & 4, and Rhetoric on 5 & 6.)

 

Now flip that upside down, and you have:

 

1. Create/design/construct (an idea, a model, a novel, a machine, whatever)

2. Assess/evaluate/question (pull it apart, figure it out)

3. Make inferences and investigate further (look for patterns and connections)

4. Change, modify, and examine

5. Understand (the "light bulb" moment when you see how everything fits together)

6. Remember — now you can remember and retain it!

 

The more I've thought about it, the more I think that this is how it works with DS: he needs to start at the top (creation, evaluation, analysis) and work backwards when he's first getting into a subject, but once he's worked his way to the "Remembering" part, he can then go back up the ladder, adding additional levels of understanding, analysis, etc. IOW, I think it's an iterative process for all kinds of learners, it's just that the starting point is very different. Does that make sense?

 

For example, the way DS really came to understand grammar was by (1) jumping in at a very high level of analysis (intensive class + very technical/advanced TC linguistics lectures), and (2) inventing his own language! After he'd worked through that, he has had no trouble at all understanding even the most complex rules of Greek & Latin grammar — he can just immediately see where they fit into the system and what the underlying logic is. I honestly don't know if he would have ever gotten to that point if he'd tried to do it the "usual" parts-to-whole way, drilling grammar concepts bit by bit, year after year.

 

I think it's easy to panic when these kids seem "behind" grade level compared to kids who are starting at the bottom of Bloom's and slowly working their way up — and yet when they're ready for it (and are allowed to learn the way they learn), these kids often tend to jump in right at the top.

 

Jackie

[rafiki]

nt

[TippyCanoe]

nm

Edited November 21, 2012 by Doodler

[Corraleno]

.

That's what's been the real epiphany for me — that his invented language was not the end goal, but just one of the processing steps. Having actually built a working model of a language, he now "gets" languages on a level that I don't think he would have been able to achieve in any other way, and he can easily transfer that knowledge to any language he chooses to study. But he needed the proper tools to do that. Some kids may want, or even need, to be able to just "play" with their interests without any outside help or "interference," but other kids want tools and resources and involvement. There is no single path that's right for "all right-brained kids" — there may be similar paths, similar tendencies, but each child is different.

 

 

Anyway, I'm now looking at other subjects to see if there might be equivalent resources for each of the components he used to work his way into foreign language. E.g.:

 

(1) an intensive, immersive, and very visual overview of the subject (like the Lukeion grammar course)

(2) a technical resource that provides tools & terminology (TC linguistics course)

(3) challenging material to pull apart and practice on (computational linguistics exercises from NACLO)

(4) some kind of manual or handbook he can refer to on his own, as he's building his own model (in the case of languages, this was The Language Construction Kit)

 

I'm currently pondering whether a similar approach would be viable for science, math, and writing, and if so, what resources would fill those functions. This afternoon, I've been playing around with the idea of building a color-coded lego model of a 5 paragraph essay. :D

 

ETA: I'm also considering the idea of separating the abstract structure of writing entirely from content, and teaching those individually. E.g., since the invented language thing worked really well as a stepping stone to real foreign languages, I'm thinking of letting him practice the structure of essays using totally imaginary topics, and even made-up words. That might remove some of the deer-in-the-headlights panic that sets in when he has to write about something and needs to juggle content, structure, correct spelling & grammar, etc., all at once. Hmmmm....

 

Jackie

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[Corraleno]

This blog post may be of interest regarding unschooling/interest-based learning in a right-brained/VSL kid.

 

http://patriciazaballos.com/2012/05/04/these-are-all-things-that-i-just-do-for-fun/

I love that graph — so cool!

 

http://patriciazaballos.com/2012/09/24/how-talking-to-your-kids-about-their-interests-can-make-them-better-writers/

This is so true — DS can do an hour-long monologue on topics that interest him, but put a sheet of paper in front of him and he totally freezes. I keep hoping that the speech recognition software for Mac will improve, but maybe I'll just get him a cheap laptop just for writing. The trick, though, will be to make him face me and just talk, rather than face the screen thinking "OMG I have to write a paper, I have to write a paper, I can't write a paper, arrrghhhh...." :lol:

 

Jackie

[Colleen in NS]

also he's 11 I just haven't updated their ages

 

Thanks.

 

what you've suggested above is what I've been thinking about doing with him; just stopping it all, and then saying "ok, you have to pick one thing to learn about in science and history, etc" and then go from there. He does "ok" with the WWS, he's very rudimentary in his sentence formation.

 

This is what I do with science, history, and literature; within a bigger frame. For example, I still will say, "OK, this year we are studying ancient history. Here is the spine - read a few pages each week." But then my kids pick topics/people/events they are interested in, find library books about them, and do their writing practice (whether they are working on narration skills, or outlining skills, or whatever) on that reading.

 

Even though your son is 11, he doesn't *have* to do WWS yet, if you don't think he's up to it. He could continue practicing skills from WWE for awhile, until he's more comfortable with putting sentences together via narration.

 

I'm also wondering if he's possibly frustrated with trying more difficult skills without a good foundation, and if that's making him non-motivated, as you say. Might he get a little more motivated if provided with some engaging-to-him reading material from which to practice WWE skills? Let's say he picked some library books about Egyptian tombs and plowed through them. He could then write a simple narration about part of one of the books; you could call the narration (in your mind) his "history output" for the week; and he could be satisfied having read something of interest to him. Then let him go nuts on a history project or something if he's so inclined. Same idea with science or literature. Then I wonder, if he got more interested in learning, if the appeal of video games might taper to a point where you could say, "OK, son, since you've been doing so well with your schoolwork and chores, you are allowed an hour on Saturday and an hour on Sunday" or something like that. Just some thoughts.

 

it feels silly to be getting onto him for reading.

 

Yup, keep feeding his reading habit. One suggestion I have is to institute a regular daily reading time so he doesn't feel he's missing out. My kids have two hours after lunch every day, and at bedtime. Sometimes they do other things during those times, but knowing the routine is helpful.

 

Have you listened to SWB's lecture on homeschooling the real child? I found that one very helpful.

 

:iagree: Oh my, yes. This lecture is VERY realistic. And funny!

 

Without a link to any concrete and incredibly interesting real life learning opportunity or connection, my DS is skeptical of the usefulness of a great deal of information. :tongue_smilie: I now see his skepticism as a form of innate intelligence though, a sort of intellectual assertiveness.

 

My son has been like this, too, since around age eight or nine. I've had my brain challenged many times about how to explain why something is or will be important to learn (mostly skill-wise, though, not so much particulars of information/content). :svengo: I've been forced to think through why I think something is important for him to learn, and to learn how to explain it to him in a way he can understand and work with.

 

Jackie, I remember telling you when your ds first got into inventing his language a year and a bit ago and you wanted him to do the linguistics readings and courses first, that he might NEED to go about learning in this way, to engage himself creatively first, before having the level of internal motivation to go after the more formal learning. This is not an "I told you so," but a recognition of the pattern so many VSL/right-brained kids tend to develop along.

 

If this conversation is on the forums, will one of you please link it so I can read it? Thank you.

 

Amanda, I hope your Monday was good! :D

[Colleen in NS]

I know this is a classical board, and I've for the most part been attempting to follow that, but I'm really struggling with my son...

 

p.s. A poster who has been very helpful to me over the years, Nan in Mass, used to describe what she did (some resemblance to what I just posted) as "classical unschooling." When my oldest was very young, I devoured many books about unschooling - they were really helpful to me in seeing how learning was actually fun. Then the WTM book became helpful to me in seeing how I could create frameworks for that fun learning. Then I saw Nan marry the two concepts under that label, and it hit home for me. The idea behind the WTM book is general learning principles and general age brackets for various subject areas; but once you understand that, you can adjust the ideas to your individual son. That's why I said that for example it doesn't matter if he puts WWS off for awhile while solidifying WWE skills.

 

hth