Why does my dd have lots to say....

[5LittleMonkeys]

about her observations and opinions about everything until I ask her to write them down?:glare:

 

We just started annotating in WttW and I can tell it is going to be like pulling teeth. My copy of How to Read a Book was highlighted, circled, and had all the margins filled with notes. She sat for 15 minutes just staring at her copy. I asked her what she thought of this passage or that sentence and she said that she had no opinion. I asked her what one particular sentence meant to her and she said it meant exactly what it said. ???

 

Tomorrow we will try to annotate The Most Dangerous Game. Any advice to make this go more smoothly?

[JanetC]

What is the goal of her annotations? To get a subject for an essay? To find key ideas that will be on a test? To answer a discussion question?

 

Rather than looking at a sentence and saying, "What can we annotate about this sentence?", give her a goal: "Suppose we want to write an essay comparing Writer A to Writer B. Which passages would we mark as examples of how they are the same? Which passages would we mark as examples of how they are different?"

 

You could start with direct, concrete goals to annotate (let's mark all the new vocabulary we need to look up), then work up to more abstract ones (let's mark places that are relevant to writing a personal essay).

[regentrude]

What is the goal of her annotations? To get a subject for an essay? To find key ideas that will be on a test? To answer a discussion question?

 

:iagree:

When somebody would ask me to explain what a sentence meant, it would be perfectly possible that I answer the same thing. Just telling her "annotate" is not going to help. You need to make specific suggestions.

 

Also, why are you annotating the story? What is the goal of the exercise?

It may work better if you set an essay topic before the reading so that she can go into it knowing what she will have to be thinking about and will look for points that support what she wants to say.

This is more productive than just annotating for annotation's sake.

 

Lastly, for some people, writing in the book simply does not work well. You could offer her sticky notes to mark spots she finds relevant and put short remarks, or have her use a notebook for her observations.

I personally hate writing in the margins and circling and stuff; I can do that for non-fiction, but could never do it to a work of literature. A slight pencil underline or a single word or line in the margin is all I could manage.

[klmama]

First of all, I found How to Read a Book extremely tedious. I can't imagine how overwhelming it must be for a 14yo! I would just stick with WttW.

 

As for annotating the stories in WttW, she doesn't have to write insightful questions or comments the first time through. Just expose her to the concept of commenting and noticing things in the text. Even simply marking unknown words is a great start! At the end of the story there is a checklist which she can use to annotate it a second time. Then she'll reread the same story again in the chapter on plot analysis when she'll have to look for particular elements, techniques, etc. So, there's lots of time to get this. Be patient with her.

[Lori D.]

5LittleMonkeys said:

Any advice to make this go more smoothly?

Two pencil-phobic DSs here, who did NOT like having to annotate while doing WttW, BUT... they concede now they are very glad they learned how, as they do it all the time now for their college writing 101 and 102 classes. 😉 Also, I will say, that the first two stories are the easiest and most accessible, so you want to take them slow and really "get" annotation at this stage, as the next 3 short stories will be more difficult.

What made annotating easier here:

1. Day 1, just enjoy reading the story. DON'T annotate it. Read it, enjoy it, set it aside for the next day. (It's hard to annotate when you want to know what happens next. 😉 And, it ends up making annotation easier if you already have seen the story once; you are familiar with it and can more easily be looking around for descriptive words, repetition, etc.)

2. Starting Day 2, annotate -- but DON'T take more than 15 minutes per sitting (we were able to get through about 2-3 pages per sitting). YES, this means you will spend the rest of the week just annotating. It's okay. In fact, that's a GOOD thing. Build up your "annotating muscles" slowly so you don't end up hating annotating, AND so you can do a good job each time you come to it, since you know you won't have to put in more than 15 minutes at it.

3. Mom, YOU do it, too -- make two photocopies of the story; then you can discuss together. (Knowing I was doing the work right alongside them made a HUGE (positive) difference to DSs. Plus, I was much better able to guide discussion after the annotating was done. Plus, *I* got a lot more out of the story by doing it.) And, if you have 2 students who can do the program simultaneously -- even better. That means there will be 3 of you working at this and you'll have better discussions.

(This was ESP. helpful for my very literally-minded, logical-thinking, auditory-sequential learner -- it took a VERY long time for him to "see" anything besides what actually happened. Lots of discussion about movies and TV helped, as I could point out how in movies strong diagonal shafts of light and shadow create a visual image of tension -- similarly in literature, certain descriptive word choices create suspense and tension in a passage of the short story. It's often easier to SEE the film devices and how they are working, and then step up to seeing literary devices and how they are working. If your DD is very literal-minded, you may want to go through Movies as Literature as a first stepping stone before attempting WttW. Just a thought!)

4. Each time you go to both annotate, before you start, go over the list below to remind yourselves of the kinds of things you are "looking for", or could be thinking about to help see "below the surface" story at what else is in the story.

5. REMEMBER: While annotating, you are just interacting with the story -- marking what stood out to you, you liked, caused a reaction in you, made you question something, seemed ominous or tense for some reason, etc. You are NOT expected to ALSO know what it "means" at this time! You are NOT necessarily going to "get" WHY it stood out to you WHILE you are annotating -- you just know it made you pause a moment mentally while reading.

REMEMBER: it is LATER that you begin to make connections, see patterns, ad are able to analyze what was going on -- when you go back over your annotations and re-read. That's when you begin to see that you marked a similar thing several times in the story. That's when you think about "why"?

6. Each time AFTER the annotating session, compare what stood out to each of you. REMEMBER: this is NOT a "who is right/who is wrong" thing!! It is a joint project; more like: "What clues did you find on this page? This is what stood out to me. I'm thinking it might mean something because I marked something similar on the last page, too. What do you think?"

7. Hints to get you started as you look for clues and the "buried treasure" 🙂 in "The Most Dangerous Game":

- circle descriptive words -- note what mood it creates
- look for repetition of colors -- what might different colors symbolize or suggest in the way of mood?
- look for other repetitions (actions, choices, etc.) -- repeated things are important things
- look for similarities and contrasts (opposites) -- in setting, choices, manner of dress, weather, etc.
- look at weather and setting -- it often reflects the internal emotions/state of mind of a major character
- look for the repeated descriptions of sounds -- why the repetition? what might that mean?
- objects, images, stories, memories, etc. connected with hunting
- if need be, do a little quick Wikipedia search on WW1; Cossacks and Russians -- these are mentioned for a reason in the story

Below is a more general list of things to think about/look for when annotating. Hope something here is of help! And, DO stick with it -- WttW was a GREAT program for helping DSs stretch their analysis muscles a bit, and for learning the value of annotation (even if they disliked it). BEST of luck! Keep us updated how it goes! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

What am I looking for when annotating?
• Note the point of view, the setting, and major choices by characters.
• What might the title/chapter title mean? (could it be a symbol,a summary, foreshadowing, ironic?)
• Where is the action taking place? Does the weather seem to reflect a character's mood?

• Do you notice any:
- repetition (image, choice, action, object)
- similarities / contrasts
- powerful or vivid images
- themes or big ideas / symbols
- plot twists / surprises
- juxtapositions (side-by-side placement of two things — often clashing things)
- allusions to other works, people, historical events, etc.
- word play
- poetic or figurative language
- particularly beautifully-written passage

• Mark what is confusing, interesting, surprising, significant to YOU!
• Jot down your questions — and any attempts at answers.
• Write personal connections or personal applications you discover with the text.

PS:

5LittleMonkeys said:

My copy of How to Read a Book was highlighted, circled, and had all the margins filled with notes. She sat for 15 minutes just staring at her copy. I asked her what she thought of this passage or that sentence and she said that she had no opinion. I asked her what one particular sentence meant to her and she said it meant exactly what it said. ???

Not read through How to Read a Book, BUT, I imagine I'd have the same reaction as your DD... It's a non-fiction "how to" is my understanding; why would you be marking it, other than highlighting key concepts, as with any other non-fiction textbook? It says what it means -- as opposed to Literature, which is about description and word choice, images, symbolism, metaphor, etc. where you would need to wrestle with the author to making meaning... Just the way I see it... And I may be way off the mark of the content of How to Read a Book, so if so, please disregard this PS. 🙂

Edited July 8, 2021 by Lori D.

[1Togo]

Aimee,

 

 

The following links about marking books and literature analysis might be helpful to you. Andrew Kern has posts on the Circe yahoo group about how he has used this method when he teaches.

 

http://circeinstitute.org/2012/08/on-teaching-literary-analysis/

http://circeinstitute.org/2011/07/on-wrecking-books-to-bring-them-to-life/

Edited September 14, 2012 by 1Togo

[5LittleMonkeys]

Okay, first of all it was "How to MARK a Book", the essay, not "How to Read a Book"...sorry, I had the book on my mind and confused the titles. Oh, and the reason we (I) annotated it is because the syllabus told me to.;)

 

Secondly, thank you all so much. Lori, as usual, your information is invaluable. 1Togo, thank you for the links. I'm always excited to read information from Circe.

 

Last night after reading the questions posted by JanetC and regentrude I started asking myself if I made it clear to dd exactly why we were annotating. I explained to her that it was important for her to be able to really understand what she was reading, to look for literary elements, note the tone, understand the theme or message...mostly all very vague things for her. I can see how I'm going to have to be much more specific and model this for her. (Okay, who said that once they get into highschool they are working more independently??:tongue_smilie:)

 

The Movies in Literature is something I've had in my Amazon cart for over 6 months now. I definitely planned on using it with dd13 since she is an extremely literal child. I may go ahead and get it to work through with dd14 too. Thanks for the reminder.

[samba]

I'll second the recommendation to ease into the lit analysis with Movies as Lit. I'm going through this with dd12 now. We started with Emma and dd's weaknesses in analysis or expression of her ideas quickly became obvious. I think it could make for a smoother transition and give her maturity a little nudge.

[Elinor Everywhere]

Lori,

 

Can you please take that teeny weeny ol' drive once a week and teach WttW to my daughter? :D I'm printing out your post because I've not done a great job of teaching it so far, I think.

[Lori D.]

Elinor Everywhere said:

Lori,

Can you please take that teeny weeny ol' drive once a week and teach WttW to my daughter? 😄 I'm printing out your post because I've not done a great job of teaching it so far, I think.

Hey, now, why not drive my way and she can join my co-op class on Lord of the Rings once a week! 😉

Edited July 8, 2021 by Lori D.

[Elinor Everywhere]

Hey, now, why not drive my way and she can join my co-op class on Lord of the Rings once a week! ;)

 

Waaaahhhh, we did that last year. Boo!

[Lori D.]

5LittleMonkeys said:

Okay, first of all it was "How to MARK a Book", the essay, not "How to Read a Book"

Ah, then definitely delete my PS -- I am not familiar with the How to Mark a Book essay. 🙂

5LittleMonkeys said:

Tomorrow we will try to annotate The Most Dangerous Game.

So, how did your adventures go today in reading The Most Dangerous Game?? Hope it was a good literature day! 🙂 Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

Elinor Everywhere said:

Waaaahhhh, we did that last year. Boo!

LOL! :lol:

Elinor Everywhere said:

I've not done a great job of teaching it so far, I think.

I do find this hard to believe; you and your DD were delightful, knowledgeable, enjoyable people to chat with when we got to visit with you last year. She is very bright young lady, and the two of you have a great relationship... Seriously, I think you'll have a lot of fun doing WttW together. 🙂 Just don't sweat the analysis so much -- remember, this is a process! And enjoy your lit. journey together! I have every confidence in you, Elinor Everywhere! 🙂 Hugs, Lori D.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Lori D.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

So, how did your adventures go today in reading The Most Dangerous Game?? Hope it was a good literature day! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

It didn't happen at all because life happened and, well, you know the rest. It is on the schedule for tomorrow (Tuesday). I will post back tomorrow to update on how it went. I'm hopeful because I did have her read through it and she commented that she liked the story...so at least I have that going for me.:D

 

 

So, Lori...has anyone ever talked to you about doing a class over Skype or Oovuu? ;)

[Lori D.]

5LittleMonkeys said:

So, Lori...has anyone ever talked to you about doing a class over Skype or Oovuu? 😉

LOL! :lol:

That would be fun, but couldn't happen this year. I am a newbie teacher at our homeschool co-op, teaching 2 classes, plus writing the curriculum for both as we go. Both are for grades 7-12, with an option for high schoolers to take for credit:

- Journey Through Middle Earth (Lit. & Comp., Lord of the Rings)
- Understanding Movies (film analysis and worldview, with a focus this semester on film elements, and a focus next semester on genre)

Hey, I know! Just come on over west my way and join us! We're only about 1600 miles apart. 😉 And if that doesn't work out, well, hopefully I'll get this curriculum done by the end of the year and can look towards publishing...

But, I DO think it would be LOADS of fun doing a class with all you lovely WTM friends! Oh, okay, and I guess we can include the kids, too... LOL! :tongue_smilie:

Do tell us how the annotating goes! Wishing you the BEST! Warmly, Lori

Edited July 8, 2021 by Lori D.

[Elinor Everywhere]

LOL! :lol:

 

 

I do find this hard to believe; you and your DD were delightful, knowledgeable, enjoyable people to chat with when we got to visit with you last year. She is very bright young lady, and the two of you have a great relationship... Seriously, I think you'll have a lot of fun doing WttW together. :) Just don't sweat the analysis so much -- remember, this is a process! And enjoy your lit. journey together! I have every confidence in you, Elinor Everywhere! :) Hugs, Lori D.

 

For the thousandth time, I really wish these forums had a "like" button. :D

[Elinor Everywhere]

But, I DO think it would be LOADS of fun doing a class with all you lovely WTM friends! Oh, okay, and I guess we can include the kids, too... LOL! :tongue_smilie:

 

Lori

 

:lol: This is exactly what I was thinking - I want to be the one to take your classes!!

[5LittleMonkeys]

Just updating to let ... well anyone interested...how it has gone so far.

 

We were only able to work on this twice since I posted. The first day she and I re-read the story and then I asked her to go through and highlight then define any words she was unfamiliar with. She found 5 and jotted down their meanings. Next I asked her what her first impression was of the story. She said she liked it, that very soon after starting it she knew what the jist of it was going to be and that it was similar to a plot in a quest from one of her console games. I asked her to jot down how they were similar and different. I asked her how she knew what the twist was going to be and she said she's read other stories and was aware of movies with the same plot line. I didn't make her write any of this...it was just conversation. That's where we stopped for the day.

 

 

The next time we worked on it, today, I talked to her about the types of general things Lori mentioned looking for and we started with the first page and I pointed out a few things in the first few paragraphs, descriptions, foreshadowing and so on. At this point it was still like pulling teeth. I felt like I was working alone. She marked a few things on her copy but still seemed lost as to what she was looking for...I feel she thought she was going to do it wrong. I assured her that she couldn't do it wrong. She asked me if I had a list of things to look for...I said I did. She asked for the list and disappeared upstairs. Later she came down and handed me the first 3 pages and she had marked about 5-6 things on each page. She got it! She marked personification, onomatopoeia, foreshadowing, descriptive simile, some sentences that she said she just really liked with a comment on why she liked them. A few places she marked comments like "he really knows his weapons" when the character could tell what type of gun was being used by the sound it made. Some other comments were, "Why would you swim toward something like that?" and "This is an obvious indication that something bad is going to happen". So, I was very pleased!

 

We compared notes and discussed a few of each others observations. I asked her if she felt better about the process (which I knew she must since she actually exceeded my expectations so quickly), and she said, " Yah, I got this. If you'd given me the list to begin with I'd not have been so lost. Tell whoever gave it to you thanks.":glare:

 

So, LoriD, thanks from both of us! :D

[Lori D.]

:hurray: Aime this is SO AWESOME! :hurray:

5LittleMonkeys said:

The first day she and I re-read the story and then I asked her to go through and highlight then define any words she was unfamiliar with. She found 5 and jotted down their meanings.

Next I asked her what her first impression was of the story. She said she liked it, that very soon after starting it she knew what the jist of it was going to be and that it was similar to a plot in a quest from one of her console games.

I asked her to jot down how they were similar and different.

I asked her how she knew what the twist was going to be and she said she's read other stories and was aware of movies with the same plot line.

I didn't make her write any of this...it was just conversation...

Aime, what you initiated here with your DD was PERFECT! A SUPER way to gently move into the work. 🙂

5LittleMonkeys said:

The next time we worked on it... I talked to her about the types of general things ... [to be] looking for and we started with the first page and I pointed out a few things in the first few paragraphs, descriptions, foreshadowing and so on...

She asked for the list and disappeared upstairs.

Yea! Just the right amount of introduction and hand-holding by you needed by this student to give her the confidence to move into annotating on her own!

5LittleMonkeys said:

Later she came down and handed me the first 3 pages and she had marked about 5-6 things on each page. She got it! She marked personification, onomatopoeia, foreshadowing, descriptive simile, some sentences that she said she just really liked with a comment on why she liked them. A few places she marked comments like "he really knows his weapons" when the character could tell what type of gun was being used by the sound it made. Some other comments were, "Why would you swim toward something like that?" and "This is an obvious indication that something bad is going to happen".

We compared notes and discussed a few of each others observations.

Wow! Those are absolutely SUPER annotations! Good job, Mama! And good job Daughter! 😄 Warmest regards, Lori D.

PS
Just to let you know -- one of the future stories, "Jury of Her Peers" is TOUGH (at least it was for my DSs). You will definitely want to do this one WITH your DD, and use those informal conversations like you did above to guide her thinking. It is a story that is all about what is IMPLIED and what is INTERNAL, which is hard for students new to literary analysis to pick up on. So your questions and ideas of what to look for will be very helpful to your DD. Here are some helpful things to look for, and what they suggest.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Lori D.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

 

PS

Just to let you know -- one of the future stories, "Jury of Her Peers" is TOUGH (at least it was for my DSs). You will definitely want to do this one WITH your DD, and use those informal conversations like you did above to guide her thinking. It is a story that is all about what is IMPLIED and what is INTERNAL, which is hard for students new to literary analysis to pick up on. So your questions and ideas of what to look for will be very helpful to your DD. Here are some helpful things to look for, and what they suggest.

 

 

Thanks for the kuddos...I attribute our success mostly to dd. I don't think it would have been that painless with my other dd.;)

 

I will look ahead to "Jury of Her Peers", thanks for the heads-up and the tips.

 

I'm thinking that Jill Pike needs to include your general list of things to look for when annotating in the next revision of her syllabus. OR you could just publish your own literature curriculum.;)

[Lori D.]

Bumping this thread, in case it is of help to others who are starting to move into annotating and literary analysis. 😉

[Shelydon]

On 7/11/2021 at 11:28 AM, Lori D. said:

Bumping this thread, in case it is of help to others who are starting to move into annotating and literary analysis. 😉

 

On 7/11/2021 at 11:28 AM, Lori D. said:

Bumping this thread, in case it is of help to others who are starting to move into annotating and literary analysis. 😉

Thank you!

[Janeway]

On 9/13/2012 at 8:12 PM, 5LittleMonkeys said:

about her observations and opinions about everything until I ask her to write them down?:glare:

 

We just started annotating in WttW and I can tell it is going to be like pulling teeth. My copy of How to Read a Book was highlighted, circled, and had all the margins filled with notes. She sat for 15 minutes just staring at her copy. I asked her what she thought of this passage or that sentence and she said that she had no opinion. I asked her what one particular sentence meant to her and she said it meant exactly what it said. ???

 

Tomorrow we will try to annotate The Most Dangerous Game. Any advice to make this go more smoothly?

What is WttW?

[Lori D.]

15 hours ago, Janeway said:

What is WttW?

Windows to the World, for grades 9-12.

[CAtoVA]

AGGHHH! I will be trying this with one of my DD's (grade 8/9) in about a month....

 

 

[Lori D.]

32 minutes ago, CAtoVA said:

AGGHHH! I will be trying this with one of my DD's (grade 8/9) in about a month....

Providing a lot of specific ideas and guidance of things to look for "while reading" really helps with students just beginning to "dig deeper." 😉 Even just going into a work by saying something more general like: "There is a lot of suspense in this short story; while reading, be thinking about why you might have felt tense at certain parts of the story -- what was the author doing there that made you feel suspense..."

[kiwik]

On 9/14/2012 at 1:39 PM, regentrude said:

 

:iagree:

When somebody would ask me to explain what a sentence meant, it would be perfectly possible that I answer the same thing. Just telling her "annotate" is not going to help. You need to make specific suggestions.

 

Also, why are you annotating the story? What is the goal of the exercise?

It may work better if you set an essay topic before the reading so that she can go into it knowing what she will have to be thinking about and will look for points that support what she wants to say.

This is more productive than just annotating for annotation's sake.

 

Lastly, for some people, writing in the book simply does not work well. You could offer her sticky notes to mark spots she finds relevant and put short remarks, or have her use a notebook for her observations.

I personally hate writing in the margins and circling and stuff; I can do that for non-fiction, but could never do it to a work of literature. A slight pencil underline or a single word or line in the margin is all I could manage.

I could never bring myself to write in  a book.  Luckily I have never been asked to commit such an act of vanda!ism.

[Lori D.]

11 hours ago, kiwik said:

I could never bring myself to write in  a book.  Luckily I have never been asked to commit such an act of vanda!ism.

😂  I, too, am not fond of writing in books. In college I bought very old beat-up books and texts so I could annotate or highlight without anxiety. And even then, in the literature, my annotations were like what @regentrude described above. 😉 

And, there are many ways of annotating -- marking in the book is only 1 way. 😉
- For poems or short stories, you can photocopy and mark the photocopy.
- For any work, you could jot your notes and annotations in a notebook (just make sure to start with the page number beside the annotation).
- You can also use post-it notes, jot the annotation on the post-it, and stick it next to the text with an edge of the post-it sticking out of the book. 
- Or, use those flag or page-marking post-its with a symbol that is meaningful to you, or with no marking at all -- just "bookmark" a passage you want to think about or come back to.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Lori D.