AP courses for a homeschooled student?

[Kris in Wis]

There is much talk of AP courses on this board, and it sounds like many people are having their students take them. My question is, is it possible to do AP level courses at home, and subsequently test? If so, how does one go about that?

 

In our previous experience, none of my older children enrolled in public high school AP classes, but did take courses at our local CC, which then transferred credits to their colleges. Not only that, but the content of many of their homeschool courses, history and literature especially, were of the caliber of many college courses.

 

I wonder why the emphasis on AP, and AP tests (other than the college credit they earn), rather than simply challenging course content. Do you feel students actually DO learn more from AP courses? Or are they simply geared to ensuring a high score on a test?

 

I just don't feel like going to the trouble of signing my son up for AP at the public high school, when his course work at home is just as challenging.

 

So how can that translate to a transcript, and/or an AP test score?

 

Incidentally, in our school district, the majority of the students take AP courses. I don't know how they eventually test, but it is unusual to run across a high school kid who is NOT taking AP. Which leads me to question the validity of the courses, since not everybody can be "above average."

 

Not trying to sound negative, but if you're going to home school, why opt for public school AP classes?

 

Just wonderin' . . . :huh:

[dbmamaz]

thats an interesting question. I wonder how the AP tests compare to the SAT subject tests? You might want to contact admissions at any colleges on the radar and ask them how much it counts towards admissions. Also, there are ways to do AP work at home.

[snowbeltmom]

My question is, is it possible to do AP level courses at home, and subsequently test? If so, how does one go about that? Yes, this is possible. You just have to find a school that will permit your child to sit for the exam. Each exam is given once in May. (There is also a makeup date for students that have scheduling conflicts.)

 

I pay for the exam and register my son with our local public school each September. My son then goes into the public school sometime in April to fill out the AP answer sheets and other personal information. (The time frame may vary from school to school, but I would recommend at least finding a school will to let your child take AP's sometime in the fall.)

 

I wonder why the emphasis on AP, and AP tests (other than the college credit they earn), rather than simply challenging course content. Do you feel students actually DO learn more from AP courses? Or are they simply geared to ensuring a high score on a test?

We will be doing a mixture of cc classes and AP's. I have read that college admissions folks prefer AP classes because they theoretically teach to a standardized curriculum, while the content and "rigor" of cc courses can vary widely. I am also using AP classes to validate our homeschooled program.

 

 

Incidentally, in our school district, the majority of the students take AP courses. I don't know how they eventually test, but it is unusual to run across a high school kid who is NOT taking AP. Which leads me to question the validity of the courses, since not everybody can be "above average."

If you are curious as to how the students at your public school perform on the actual AP exam, you can request The College Board Summary Report. At my public school, not many kids pass the AP exam, and with the exception of one AP class, I would never sign my kids up for an AP class taught at our local school.

 

Not trying to sound negative, but if you're going to home school, why opt for public school AP classes? There are other options besides taking the AP class at the public school. One option that I have read of students doing is taking the class at the cc and then taking the AP exam. Other students take the AP class through an online provider.

 

 

 

 

I don't know how to do the multiple quotes. Please see my responses above.

[8filltheheart]

There is much talk of AP courses on this board, and it sounds like many people are having their students take them. My question is, is it possible to do AP level courses at home, and subsequently test? If so, how does one go about that?

 

Yes, it is possible to teach AP courses at home. You can find out what is covered on the AP exams on the College Board site.

 

 

In our previous experience, none of my older children enrolled in public high school AP classes, but did take courses at our local CC, which then transferred credits to their colleges. Not only that, but the content of many of their homeschool courses, history and literature especially, were of the caliber of many college courses.

 

My experience is that CC courses are much lower in quality than what I teach at home. :tongue_smilie: However, the courses I put together and teach at home do not lead to college credit. Both CC and AP courses *may* (depends on the uni, the course, the score) lead to college credit.

 

I wonder why the emphasis on AP, and AP tests (other than the college credit they earn), rather than simply challenging course content. Do you feel students actually DO learn more from AP courses? Or are they simply geared to ensuring a high score on a test?

Um......college credit for work completed is not an issue we dismiss. Also, the score also validates the quality of the work being done at home and gives schools a baseline by which to asses the rest of the transcript.

 

I just don't feel like going to the trouble of signing my son up for AP at the public high school, when his course work at home is just as challenging.

 

I would not want to have to deal w/a ps school here for multiple reasons. First, I am not impressed w/their quality and second, they have a rotating block schedule.

 

So how can that translate to a transcript, and/or an AP test score?

 

If you want it labeled as AP on a transcript, you can submit a syllabus to College Board and if it is approved, your class can be technically called AP. Or, if you don't want to go through that process, you can put it on the transcript with "XYZ with AP exam). To take the AP exam, you simply need to locate a school that will administer the test and register and pay for the exam.

 

Incidentally, in our school district, the majority of the students take AP courses. I don't know how they eventually test, but it is unusual to run across a high school kid who is NOT taking AP. Which leads me to question the validity of the courses, since not everybody can be "above average."

 

If you look at the scores on the College Board site, all students are not scoring 5s. Just taking the course does not translate to a high score. http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/student/testing/ap/sumrpts/2011/NATIONAL_Summary.xls

 

Not trying to sound negative, but if you're going to home school, why opt for public school AP classes?

 

Just wonderin' . . . :huh:

 

I don't know that public school and AP courses are necessarily connected. AP courses are supposed to reflect college level mastery of subject matter. Unlike the SAT subject tests, they require non-bubble essay/proof type answers as well.

 

FWIW, based on just the 2 AP exams my 10th grader took last yr, many universities will grant him 16 credit hrs (8 hrs / test).

 

HTH

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I added a tag on this thread for Advanced Placement. There are several lengthy threads where folks discuss the positives and negatives.

 

Benefits range from quantifying the high school work completed (improving chances at college admissions), to getting credit, to achieving advanced standing (which can make it easier to get into college courses that fill up quickly), to meeting prerequisites for advanced or specialized courses in college.

 

Negatives include spending time on the requirements of the AP exam, which doesn't always line up with what families want to concentrate on (especially in history).

 

Many on the board have taken AP exams after home based courses. Others have used local support group/coop classes or online classes. I think using a public school for instruction is relatively uncommon amongst homeschoolers.

 

If you don't want to go through the CB course audit, you can't use the phrase Advanced Placement or AP on the course description or transcript. But you can say that the course was English Composition with AP English Language and Composition Exam (Score: 4) without doing the audit.

[plansrme]

I don't care how college-level your at-home classes are, no one is going to believe you 100%. Once you can whip out some solid AP scores on some of the hardest AP exams, however, people pay attention. If outside confirmation of rigor and/or talent is important to your student's plans, APs are one way to get that. My daughter is going into a STEM magnet on Monday with 5s on 5 AP exams that she took as a middle schooler. The school is granting her all sorts of waivers and special privileges that I am positive they would not do if it were just me saying, "But she's really smart..."

 

And as others have mentioned, AP classes are not necessarily taken only in public school. My daughter self-studied for four, and we outsourced one, but the classes were not taken in PS; just the exam itself.

 

Terri

Edited August 12, 2012 by plansrme

[merylvdm]

I agree with all the previous posters so won't repeat anything they have said. My oldest 3 have all taken a lot of AP exams and all ended up as AP scholars with distinction. None of them took an AP course either online or at a school. We just did the curriculum we were doing anyway (Sonlight, Thinkwell, Apologia etc) and 2 weeks before the exam they would go over Princeton Review books. I never 'taught to the test' and often the work my kids were doing was more rigorous than the work covered in AP classes at local schools. They only took an AP exam if the work we were already doing covered the AP topics for that subject.

 

My older daughter got so many credits from her AP exams that she was classified as a sophomore when she arrived at college. My son ended up at Stanford, and they basically don't accept any APs so he couldn't use any as credit BUT the fact that he had done well on so many did validate the GPA he had. It is a way of showing colleges that a homeschooled student is capable of a certain level of academic work. As a previous poster said, not all CCs are equal academically whereas everyone who has achieved a 4 or 5 on an AP exam knows a decent amount about that subject.

 

SAT subject tests are required by a few colleges and suggested by others and my kids do a few of those too. They are just an hour long and don't have any essays.

[KAR120C]

I don't care how college-level your at-home classes are, no one is going to believe you 100%. Once you can whip out some solid AP scores on some of the hardest AP exams, however, people pay attention. If outside confirmation of rigor and/or talent are important to your student's plans, APs are one way to get that. My daughter is going into a STEM magnet on Monday with 5s on 5 AP exams that she took as a middle schooler. The school is granting her all sorts of waivers and special privileges that I am positive they would not do if it were just me saying, "But she's really smart..."

This exactly.

 

If I say "we did statistics for math this year" everyone assumes I mean we just spent a year averaging things. :glare: And my saying "no really - I know what statistics means" doesn't carry much weight. But with the AP exam it's clear that we covered much more than that, in sufficient detail to get a good score.

 

We do AP at home - not at school - and it's not a matter of teaching to the test but of recognizing where the things he is already doing could be confirmed by an exam. Environmental science next year is a huge bunch of things he's continuing from Field Ecology last year, well beyond the syllabus, and we're adding in a little bit of textbook to fill in a gap or two. But really the bulk of the course is research, not test prep. Physics and Calculus are closer to the syllabus because they're more textbook courses, but actually we're rearranging a lot to fit another project - again, research, backed up by a little test prep.

[Gwen in VA]

I agree with everything above. I just want to add my 2 cents --

 

My dd did a double degree with a minor in four years -- thanks to numerous AP credits.

 

My ds did a triple major and spent his junior year abroad -- thanks to numerous AP credits.

 

Acceptances to elite colleges, merit aid, skipping various 100-level classes....I can't say enough good about AP exams!

 

My kids did have other sources of outside verification -- SAT-2's, SAT's, NMF, grades from classes taken at 4-year colleges, etc. -- but AP exam scores are an easy way for colleges to see the rigor of your curriculum.

[merylvdm]

Gwen in VA just reminded me in her post above that getting out of Gen Ed courses is an excellent reason to take APs. My oldest told her siblings to do as many APs as possible so they could get out of all the boring Gen Ed classes.

She also completed a double degree plus minor in 4 yrs because of all her AP credits.

Another reason to get your kids to take APs is to see if they do know how to study and take reasonably hard exams before they get to college. If they fail at their APs (and two of mine did the first time round!) you can work with them and help them succeed before they get to college.

[Wildiris]

To answer the question:

 

My question is, is it possible to do AP level courses at home, and subsequently test? If so, how does one go about that?

 

Yes, one can cover the material on an AP level course at home and take the test. Taking an AP class is not mandatory. The AP study guides sold are an excellent way to prepare for the exam, as well as looking over course outlines and sample tests at the College Board web site.

 

Taking an AP exam and or an SAT II subject test does meet the requirements of some colleges and universities. For example, the University of California will not accept any online fine arts or online laab science classes for their A-G requirements; however, they will accept an AP or SAT II subject test of high standing. No doubt an online class or a homeschool co-op class will prepare a student for the exam. The test ensures a certain body of information is known.

 

About AP classes. My DD~15 signed up for AP English and Composition through K12 (She has since un-enrolled from K12 ). The books sent to us were were very good, freshman in college level books. I suspect it would have been a challenging class with lots of learning.

 

Why would a fifteen-year-old sign up for an AP class? Regular sophomore classes were too easy. The bar is set at floor level.

[creekland]

I'm not repeating what everyone else has said (I agree with it all), but I just want to add NOT doing more AP tests is one thing I highly regret with my guys. We did the classwork and would have only needed to study review books just a little.

 

Oldest did none and really wishes he had taken Calc as he was bored having to retake the class (non math heavy major - just needed the credit for business).

 

Middle took two and has credit for both at his college. His college does NOT give credit for any dual enrollment classes (he has 3 of those).

 

The VAST majority - VAST, VAST majority - of kids applying to upper level colleges (not meaning just tippy top colleges) will have a decent number of APs. If your student does not, they are at a disadvantage. My middle son did well, but he also was tippy top with his ACT score. Even then he was waitlisted at one school - who knows what could have happened if he'd had more than the 1 AP he had at the time. (Should note he'd probably still be going where he is even if he'd gotten into his waitlist school, but still...)

 

As others have said, AP is dependable for content. Dual enrollment classes are not. Therein lies the difference for colleges. Fewer and fewer privates are accepting dual enrollment classes for credit each year due to their experience of having under-qualified students from them.

 

We chose to self-study AP at home, then took the tests at a nearby Catholic high school that, fortunately, welcomed my guy with open arms. To find the school I had to call collegeboard in Jan of the year he wanted to take his first test. They gave me a list of schools to call to see if they'd allow a homeschooler to sit in.

[southcarolinamom]

Instead of going the AP route, to "validate" my son's high school transcript, he studied for, and passed 7 CLEP exams during the spring/summer of his senior year. He entered his freshman year of college with 21 college credits under his belt. It was awesome!

 

His senior year, he used Sonlight's Brit Lit, and then he took the CLEP English Literature exam. He also passed the CLEP "Analyzing and Interpreting Literature" - the equivalent of a typical freshman "Comp and Rhetoric" class.

 

We used Sonlight's General Psychology curriculum, and then he took the CLEP Intro to Psych CLEP exam. Sociology is an easy spin-off of Psych, so he also studied for, and passed that CLEP.

 

Having studied Psych and Apologia Human Anatomy in 12th grade, and knowing that he was going to be a nursing major, he studied for, and passed the Human Growth & Development CLEP.

 

He then studied and passed both History of Civ CLEP exams.

 

This is an alternative route you can use to add college credit to your child's transcript, while studying at home. I spent about $20 per CLEP subject book buying them from Amazon or ebay, and then the actual CLEP test is done at a local testing center, costing $100. The students know immediately how they scored. The testing centers send a copy of the test results to the college of your choice, and the student brings home a print-out of his score.

 

PM me if you have anymore questions!

[8filltheheart]

 

As others have said, AP is dependable for content. Dual enrollment classes are not.

.

 

I think this statement needs be qualified as saying dual enrollment courses taken at CCs are going to be variable in quality/content. Not all students are dual enrolling at CCs and some do take their courses at universities. Whether or not the courses are accepted at tippy top schools, that is another matter. But our experience has been that courses taken at the CCs have been substandard in quality, but those taken at local universities have been fine.

[Joan in GE]

I just don't feel like going to the trouble of signing my son up for AP at the public high school, when his course work at home is just as challenging.

 

While the coursework could be as challenging, there are two additional aspects for me (besides what people have covered already for other aspects of the whole AP testing possibility): the testing situation and scheduling...

 

'testing situation'... having to deal with the stress of testing with all those strangers, not having delays in start time (normally they are pretty rigorous though there have been some abnormal examples), dealing with unexpected questions or manner of presenting the question, sometimes what seem like unfair questions or situations, etc, etc...to me were all part of valuable life experience learning...

 

I wanted ds3 to have as many opportunities as were reasonable to have to deal with more stressful testing situations because here (and I think in the US in some state universities) the issue is not so much 'getting into' school (which is more difficult here than the US in general) as 'staying' in school (with an approx 50% - varying depending on the major - first year failure rate).

 

'scheduling'....Personally I would have found it challenging to maintain the pace we did if there wouldn't have been a fixed exam date and a certain amount of material to cover that couldn't flex with trouble understanding a concept, illness, or whatever ....

 

We had requirements for AP exams for entry here, but even if we hadn't, I would have had him do AP exams.

 

HTH,

Joan

[AngieW in Texas]

I regret not doing any AP exams with my oldest. She did take a lot of cc classes and I feel confident that her cc classes were good quality. Our local cc has a good reputation. She had 45 college credits from cc classes and all but one of the classes (3 credits) transferred to her university. The one class that didn't transfer didn't have an equivalent in the transfer equivalency chart.

 

My middle dd has done one AP test so far (physics b) and will do another one in May (calculus ab). She has done two SAT-II (US History and Chemistry). I do wish that I had thought about having her do a CLEP for US History. She doesn't really have any desire to sit through US history again, but she's likely to go to the same school my oldest is at, so at least we do know who one of the good teachers is. This dd will have 44 credits from cc classes when she graduates high school. I actually taught a class in my home for the ap physics b test (didn't get it certified by college board, so just listed as Honors Physics on her transcript) and I'm teaching that class again this year for other students. My dd is going to use Thinkwell to study for the AP Calculus AB test.

[Kris in Wis]

When I said my children did CC classes which transferred, I should have clarified. We do NOT have community colleges in our region. Our children took courses at the local branch of our state university. There was no doubt whatsoever that these were challenging college courses. The credits transferred, and, in addition, my children were all able to test out (for credit!) of the next level in several disciplines.

 

Also, both my college graduates finished their degrees in 4 years, with no summer school. One child was a double major; the other majored and minored. While they may not have attended "top tier" colleges (neither wanted to - they sought a school that fit their goals and personalities), they did choose somewhat selective private colleges with high standards, and did exceptionally well. Not only that, but they were accepted at every school they applied to and basically had their pick!

 

So I'm not concerned about the quality of their homeschool education. Homeschoolers have made broad strides in college admissions over the last 5-10 years, and many colleges actively seek them.

 

Why I like the idea of college coursework (rather than AP) before college: your homeschooled student gets the feel of a REAL college classroom/lab before actually going off to college. I think that's so much better than the public high school environment, and certainly good experience for a homeschooled child aiming for college.

 

I know many parents on this board are aiming for "top tier" schools, and want the advantage of AP credits, but that is neither my nor my son's ultimate goal. There are hundreds and hundreds of excellent colleges and universities in this country that AREN'T the "best" schools, but still provide a wonderful education, and graduate successful, employable people.

 

I think there is a great deal of subconscious pressure put on parents of homeschooled children to compete with their public schooled peers, and AP classes have become so commonplace that we figure we have to go with the flow. I have certainly felt it.

 

Then again, many of us believe AP classes/tests will give our kids advantages they may not otherwise have. That may be generally true.

 

I may try AP tests with my son, depending on cost and when and where they are offered in my district. However, my goal is simply to earn him extra credits BEFORE college, should he choose to go. He has only just turned 15, so we have time to consider it.

 

In any case, I appreciate all of your advice! Thanks for taking time from your busy days to respond!

[Joan in GE]

I may try AP tests with my son, depending on cost and when and where they are offered in my district. However, my goal is simply to earn him extra credits BEFORE college, should he choose to go. He has only just turned 15, so we have time to consider it.

 

This part I don't understand as you said that your homeschool courses are of equal caliber. Why don't you just do the AP course at home? The AP Central site is so transparent. It is easy to see what is needed, the books to use, etc....

 

You can do both AP and CC if you have that option....but if you do the AP coursework at home, you don't have to worry about scheduling outside classes so much...then just do the exam at the end. Getting a course approved is not so difficult if you have the habit of high workload....

 

And AP's can be done at 15 yo..without having to face the university setting at a young age...

 

Joan

[Kris in Wis]

You have to have your course approved before taking the test? You can't just teach whatever you want and then just sign up for the test?

 

Not clear what you mean by "Getting a course approve".

[Corraleno]

You only need to have your course approved if you want to list it on the transcript as AP. You don't need to have it approved if you just want to self-study and take the test. If you don't get the syllabus approved, you can list the course as "Chemistry with AP Test" or something similar — you just can't call it "AP Chemistry."

 

Jackie

[Joan in GE]

You have to have your course approved before taking the test? You can't just teach whatever you want and then just sign up for the test?

 

Not clear what you mean by "Getting a course approved".

 

Sorry to be unclear.

 

No you don't have to have the course approved to take the test. But if you want to put on the transcript that it was an AP course, then you need to get it approved. There are other ways that people have dealt with the transcript issue...if you search ap and transcript you will hopefully find what they put if you don't want to go through the process.

 

But if you are doing all the work of making the course for an AP exam, why not get it approved? Unless the work changes, you can keep that accreditation for years - teaching the same material. You just have to ask to continue....

 

HTH,

Joan

[FaithManor]

I do all of my AP courses at home. Our local high school has cut back so far, that I wouldn't be able to get more than English and U.S. History anyway...it's all going towards remedial now because of getting a bad ranking this year. :glare: Since we are an unregulated homeschool state, we don't have the online options that Pennsylvania has. I'm sure I could find them through other online high schools, but I've chosen to do it myself.

 

For dd, she self-studied chemistry - both levels of Apologia and then for "fun" read through dh and I's college chem text...don't take that as the best way for other homeschoolers to approach it...this is my geeky little "I learn all things science by osmosis" child. She earned a 5 on the exam. She did physics this way as well. I doubt I interracted with her more than half-dozen times on either subject. She is just that way. She earned a 5 on that one too.

 

For the boys, we are using AP texts. I have one that sat the US History and did very well. He read an approved text, watched the Story of US documentaries twice through, did some writing assignments from me and made some outlines as per what I expected from him through the course, and used Barron's AP U.S. History review book. He's doing the same thing for World History. However, I want to take a slower walk through that one. We have both volumes of "World Together, Worlds Apart" from Prentice Hall (an approved AP text) plus the companion reader and it's a huge amount of material. He could do it in one year, use a Barron's Review, sit the exam and get at 4 or 5, but the exam is not my only concern. This child is a history nut and we need to slow down, do more discussions, go deeper, and not rush or he'll be very disappointed despite the test score. So I'm planning volume 1 (pre-history/ancients through 1250 A.D./C.E.) along with some reading from SWB's Norton volume on ancient history, field trips (we have a historical nature center with petroglyphs, burial ground, etc. here in Michigan and a bunch of similar areas maintained by the DNR/State Park system), and so forth. Then we'll do volume 2 the second year, do the Barron's book and some practice tests online, and he'll sit that exam at the end of his junior year instead of this sophomore year. I've also got some Great Course Lectures that I want him to watch. We match literature/Great Books Study to history, but they do not need to take the Lit exams so I am not "tailoring" my program to the AP literature course.

 

Eldest boy is going to take the Computer AP exam. However, my ace in the hole on that is DH is a computer software engineer for a huge computer firm and is teaching that AP text directly in the evenings and then ds will also go through a review book before taking the exam next May.

 

I have two that will sit the Calc AB exam and that will be a combo of teaching from DH, myself, an AP text, and the Great Course Lectures on Calculus Change and Motion.

 

We've also accomplished the AP biology course with dd and first ds. I taught the material, though frankly, they do a lot of self-studying and then before the chapter exam I go over it more than anything...only occasionally do I actually lecture on a topic because my kids are just real science geeks and do not struggle to understand concepts often, and I oversee the labs I want them to accomplish. They each complete a Kaplan, Barrons, or Princeton AP review for biology. (I think they've said that for this subject they prefer the Princeton review and think Barron's is out to make a person "self-implode".) Eldest DS chose not to sit the exam because he ended up not needing it for his major, but middle boy - just beginning the course - will take that exam in May.

 

We've never tried any of the English exams. Science, math, and history have been the most important since the kids are all heading into STEM related fields. They will use the science and math to demonstrate proficiency and to help earn merit money and hope to get credit for history in an attempt to skip out of their gen-ed required history class.

 

I have found the AP texts to go into much more depth than the average textbook and in particular, most homeschool texts. My personal feeling is that many homeschool text publishers are publishing what would have been, in my day, regular or average science and history texts. They would not be honors and certainly do not cover in depth, all of the concepts covered on the AP exams.

 

Our local CC isn't worth beans. Their credits do not transfer to any of the better uni's in my state and it would be a disaster for my kids to take those classes and then claim proficiency much less try to transfer them. Most of the professors are required to give generous credit just for not sleeping in class! :001_huh: The only math offered is algebra 1 and since it's mostly a business school, there are no science classes offered. We do not live in a state with good cc's although I think there are a couple of decent ones around the Detroit area.

 

While I've found that the Great Books tradition teaches history and literature to a very rigorous level, unfortuntely, a self-designed course, while tough, may miss enough topics or specific pieces of literature that it may not be preparatory for the exam itself. After all, it's a HUGE amount of informtion and in terms of literature - the choice is quite grand - and so if you don't have an approved course for that year, while your student could be a virtual genius in history or lit, they may still perform very poorly on the test. AP is a protected designation so you cannot list your homeschooled course as AP without submitting the extensive information required in order to get permission from AP to label your own do-it-yourself course. Colleges also aren't impressed with students who take the course but do not attempt the exam. Unfortuntely for our local school, only about students pers year will attempt the course (out of 125 students average per annum), of those only about half will sit the exam, and of those, only one or two will score a 3 or higher. So, either the quality of the teaching is low, the students aren't studying, they aren't taking the practice exams to get familiar with the format, or some combo...I tend to think it is a combo.

 

I would suggest that if a huge number of students are taking the classes, you would be wise to see what the pass rate is on the exam for that school. There are a lot of kids that get in over their heads in an AP if they don't keep up with the homework and studying and then never sit the exam or if they do, do not get more than a 1 or 2 ( 3 is a C and the minimum grade for passing according to colleges). So, the fact that a lot of students take an AP course may not actually be an indication that the course itself is easy. There are many other factors.

 

The AP texts we have used are very much on par with the quality of the college textbooks DH and I used back in the 80's but of course, new information obviously. So, I think the harder material is included, the question is what is the quality of teaching, how many students master it, etc. That said, it's hard for me to evaluate that. DH and I are natural born academians and graduated college with 3.89 g.p.a's. He never broke a sweat one time in four years no matter how "rigorous" the class, and I never would have either if it hadn't been for that fact that I majored in piano performance which is a lot like majoring in torture and psychological oppression....the professors in terms of private lessons and performance evaluations were ABSOLUTELY BRUTAL. I had easy A's in all of music classes. It was the actual performance part of it that nearly drove me into the nut house. :D

 

So, my take is that just because it's easy for my kids or other kids to complete the course and set the exam, that doesn't make it less freshman college level because if academic rigor had been based on what was easy for dh and I in college and then the professors adjusted their content and expectations accordingly, we would have been lynched by the rest of the student body and I suspect it would be very much the same way for dd! Her classmates in all of her chem classes to date have leached themselves on to her...she has a 4.0 (never scored less than 95% in any course) as a chem major and hasn't sweated a college class yet. We are very, very fortunate here. I hope someone with a more normal perspective of college level classes will weigh into this discussion with thoughts on how rigorous AP classes really are and how they compare to college classes.

 

That said, even if they aren't rigorous by many homeschool standards, for kids majoring in STEM related fields, opting out of the testing may not be wise. Due to what my kids are majoring in, they cannot get accepted into ANY of the prerequisites to their majors without certain AP's. Now, this is very much linked to the level of uni they are all seeking to attend. DD is at U of M (28th in the nation), and my others are all headed to U of M, MSU, MTU, or MIT (all top tier schools)...for biology/zoology w/minor in chemistry (middle boy), oldest boy double major in computer software engineering and anthropology with archaeology emphasis, and the youngest boy double majoring in math and aerospace engineering. None of these schools will allow the boys into their freshman prereqs without the AP's.

 

I am not saying I'm a fan...as a general rule I feel we are WAY too multiple choice test oriented in this nation. However, my kids can't really escape it either.

 

Faith

[8filltheheart]

When I said my children did CC classes which transferred, I should have clarified. We do NOT have community colleges in our region. Our children took courses at the local branch of our state university. There was no doubt whatsoever that these were challenging college courses. The credits transferred, and, in addition, my children were all able to test out (for credit!) of the next level in several disciplines.

 

Also, both my college graduates finished their degrees in 4 years, with no summer school. One child was a double major; the other majored and minored. While they may not have attended "top tier" colleges (neither wanted to - they sought a school that fit their goals and personalities), they did choose somewhat selective private colleges with high standards, and did exceptionally well. Not only that, but they were accepted at every school they applied to and basically had their pick!

 

So I'm not concerned about the quality of their homeschool education. Homeschoolers have made broad strides in college admissions over the last 5-10 years, and many colleges actively seek them.

 

Why I like the idea of college coursework (rather than AP) before college: your homeschooled student gets the feel of a REAL college classroom/lab before actually going off to college. I think that's so much better than the public high school environment, and certainly good experience for a homeschooled child aiming for college.

 

I know many parents on this board are aiming for "top tier" schools, and want the advantage of AP credits, but that is neither my nor my son's ultimate goal. There are hundreds and hundreds of excellent colleges and universities in this country that AREN'T the "best" schools, but still provide a wonderful education, and graduate successful, employable people.

 

I think there is a great deal of subconscious pressure put on parents of homeschooled children to compete with their public schooled peers, and AP classes have become so commonplace that we figure we have to go with the flow. I have certainly felt it.

 

Then again, many of us believe AP classes/tests will give our kids advantages they may not otherwise have. That may be generally true.

 

I may try AP tests with my son, depending on cost and when and where they are offered in my district. However, my goal is simply to earn him extra credits BEFORE college, should he choose to go. He has only just turned 15, so we have time to consider it.

 

In any case, I appreciate all of your advice! Thanks for taking time from your busy days to respond!

 

In 19 yrs of homeschooling, I have only ever encountered 1 family IRL that has had students take APs. The vast majority (I would estimate 75%) of the homeschooled students I have known over the yrs have gone the CC route or CC to university route. With the exception of a couple of families, the rest have gone to local public universities or other in-state public unis.

 

The only academic-oriented, pursuing highly selective school admissions folks I know are those on this forum.

 

FWIW, I don't think anyone is making the argument that APs are necessary. However, depending on the school, they may help w/admissions. I have had 2 students accepted at the universities of their choice w/no AP scores. Our dd was accepted at a small LAC college w/approx $20,000 in scholarship money w/no APs and high avg (emphasis on avg!) ACT scores.

 

BUT, neither of them applied to highly selective (meaning rejection of high % of applicants) schools. Does that mean that only highly selective schools provide good educations? Obviously not.

 

But, reality is that not all schools are not equal and teachers teach to their students. So in the world of reality, a course at a CC in which the only criteria for taking the course is a COMPASS score or previous CC courses vs. a course at a selective school where the criteria for admission to the school is restrictive, the respective population w/in the courses that professors are directing their teaching toward is different, and the courses are not going to be in realistically equivalent.

 

There is an entire range of schools in between. What is required for admission or appropriate prep for the courses at each school is really going to depend on the school.

 

FWIW, my perspective is that the personality and ability of the individual student should be the most importan consideration. My dd that received the scholarship offer at the small, non-competitive LAC would not be competitive for admissions at a highly selective school, but nor would that environment even be a good match for her abilities and her personality. (fwiw, she turned down the scholarship $$ and admission to the LAC and is pursuing occupational therapy assistant through an accredited CC program.) Conversely, her youngest brother is "uber" (to use your term from your other thread) intelligent and would not be challenged in a CC environment. He is very academic and wants to pursue his phD. It is not a reflection on either one of them. They are both hard workers. They simply are different people w/different skills/abilities/personalities.

Edited August 13, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart

[FaithManor]

In 19 yrs of homeschooling, I have only ever encountered 1 family IRL that has had students take APs. The vast majority (I would estimate 75%) of the homeschooled students I have known over the yrs have gone the CC route or CC to university route. With the exception of a couple of families, the rest have gone to local public universities or other in-state public unis.

 

The only academic-oriented, pursuing highly selective school admissions folks I know are those on this forum.

 

FWIW, I don't think anyone is making the argument that APs are necessary. However, depending on the school, they may help w/admissions. I have had 2 students accepted at the universities of their choice w/no AP scores. Our dd was accepted at a small LAC college w/approx $20,000 in scholarship money w/no APs and high avg (emphasis on avg!) ACT scores.

 

BUT, neither of them applied to highly selective (meaning rejection of high % of applicants) schools. Does that mean that only highly selective schools provide good educations? Obviously not.

 

But, reality is that not all schools are not equal and teachers teach to their students. So in the world of reality, a course at a CC in which the only criteria for taking the course is a COMPASS score or previous CC courses vs. a course at a selective school where the criteria for admission to the school is restrictive, the respective population w/in the courses that professors are directing their teaching toward is different, and the courses are not going to be in realistically equivalent.

 

There is an entire range of schools in between. What is required for admission or appropriate prep for the courses at each school is really going to depend on the school.

 

FWIW, my perspective is that the personality and ability of the individual student should be the most importan consideration. My dd that received the scholarship offer at the small, non-competitive LAC would not be competitive for admissions at a highly selective school, but nor would that environment even be a good match for her abilities and her personality. (fwiw, she turned down the scholarship $$ and admission to the LAC and is pursuing occupational therapy assistant through an accredited CC program.) Conversely, her youngest brother is "uber" (to use your term from your other thread) intelligent and would not be challenged in a CC environment. He is very academic and wants to pursue his phD. It is not a reflection on either one of them. They are both hard workers. They simply are different people w/different skills/abilities/personalities.

 

 

This is very true. For what it's worth, I know of 25 homeschooling families in my county...I think there are probably more, I just have never come in contact with them. In the course of the conversation (a question and answer period after I had given a science presentation), none of the others had any intention of completing AP's. I don't think AP use for homeschoolers is widespread at all. This is especially true for our area since it is a two hr. + drive (one way) to get to a testing facility. In order to make sure the kids have enough sleep, we drive down the night before and stay in a hotel which only adds to the cost. Of course, dd took chem and physics in the same year and those were on different days so I had the added expense of doing that TWICE IN ONE WEEK! Therefore, given the cost and intense inconvenience, I'd say that for my tri-county area, we could easily be the only homeschooler doing it.

 

I've never actually heard from my public school teacher friends that AP use amongst homeschoolers is common. Most consider it quite rare.

 

Faith

[angela in ohio]

FWIW, my perspective is that the personality and ability of the individual student should be the most importan consideration.

 

Yep.

[Nscribe]

I may try AP tests with my son, depending on cost and when and where they are offered in my district. However, my goal is simply to earn him extra credits BEFORE college, should he choose to go. He has only just turned 15, so we have time to consider it.

 

 

 

Goals/needs can be so very different for students it is wonderful to be able to determine how to best accomplish them (Hooray for Homeschooling).

 

For us earning college credits before entering college would not be a goal or need. Our goal is to do 4 years of challenging academic study in the 4 core areas, plus 4 years of foreign language and a few intriguing electives. Along the route we aim to prepare skills, attitudes and habits that may serve Dd well in college.

 

The AP program in a general sense offers a course of study that is challenging and can be done independently or via any number of online and live options more formally. Ultimately, performance on the AP exam offers an indication of the level of expectations we set for a given content area and Dd's ability to meet those expectations (in whole or part). Colleges know what an AP score means, it allows us to speak to them about the quality/depth/content/scope of what we do in a language they recognize and can feel secure relying on to make a judgment.

 

Dd plans to sit for a few AP exams beginning in 10th grade. We chose not to pursue any for the first year of highschool and focus on solidifying skills and laying a foundation.

 

My issue with the AP program for homeschoolers is that we are often at the mercy of local personalities/systems to gain permission to sit for the exams at the schools. I would love to see the College Board establish a program that offered all of the exams at a state university in each state. It would open opportunities for rural students, homeschoolers and others who may not have access to the exams otherwise. I would gladly drive and stay overnight to know that at the end of our studies the exam is available/accessible and not be limited by local preferences or policies in selection of what AP's to pursue.

 

AP, CLEP, SAT 2's, various national language exams, community college, distance education via colleges/universities......we all have so many ways to go about providing opportunities for our kids to be challenged and to verify they were.

[creekland]

You only need to have your course approved if you want to list it on the transcript as AP. You don't need to have it approved if you just want to self-study and take the test. If you don't get the syllabus approved, you can list the course as "Chemistry with AP Test" or something similar — you just can't call it "AP Chemistry."

 

Jackie

 

This is what we did. It was super easy and admissions folks had no problem understanding it.

 

One other thing I forgot to mention, middle son isn't getting the option to take a Bio 101 class he would have preferred to take at college because the pre-req is a 5 on the AP test. He didn't take the AP Bio test. There's another 101 class he'll be taking, but I feel badly that I didn't have him take AP Bio so he could take the preferred (Honors - does more with research study and theory) class. We knew we didn't want the college credit from it, so opted to save the $87... When asked if there could be exceptions since his "school" didn't have AP he was told there weren't as they have too many who have the pre-req as it is.

 

Whether one wants AP or not does depend upon their goals, but if one is doing AP level work anyway, it doesn't take much to go ahead and take the test. It doesn't require having an approved course.