2 hours homeschooling equals a whole day of public schooling

[regentrude]

While our family does require much longer hrs as our kids are older, I am confident that Regentrude is not delusional in believing her kids are getting a superior middle school education in 4 hrs than an excellent ps. I am actually confident that they are based on her posts and the outcomes of her children.

 

Thanks, 8FilltheHeart.

I have not responded to this thread because I did not have time to read it all, but just want to pick out a few crumbs:

 

I do not believe a formal education in a "school" is necessary before age 6 or 7. This is supported by the fact that students from my home country, where formal education does not begin until 6 or 7, are performing at the same level at the end of elementary school as their US peers who have been drilled with ABC flashcards since preschool. I have not seen any convincing evidence that early academics translate into any measurable educational gain.

So, up to grade 6, a play based education with read-alouds, parents who talk to the child, family outings and a general active and engaged life is entirely sufficient.

 

I also believe that for elementary education, 2 hours at home would be sufficient if that is time on task. Again, in my home country elementary students are only spending 4 hours at school. They are done by 11am or 12 noon and sent home. Even with an effective school system, there will be lost time for waiting, discipline, attendance, collecting papers, plus the instruction will not be tailored to each individual student's level, so that a gifted student will spin her wheels doing busy work. A focused home instruction with 2 hours of concentrated work tailored to the student's level will accomplish the same - while at the same time giving the student more time for free learning, exploring interests, play based education. Hours of seatwork do not equal hours of education!

 

For the middle grades, I started by requiring 4 hours in 5th grade and gradually ramped it up to 6 hours by 9th grade. My DD's learning outcomes have shown that this was entirely sufficient to complete a rigorous college prep education and achieve very competetive test scores (not that this is a measure for good education, but I'll throw that in because it matters in the framework of the college application process). So, for the older grades, 2 hours is most definitely not sufficient - but again, I see no need for 8 hours in 5th grade.

I do have the comparison since my DD did attend a (blue ribbon awarded and considered very good) public school, and the complete amount she had been learning in the entire 5th grade year could have been covered at home in two weeks.

[Spy Car]

Perhaps that is the case, but I have read what you have written over several years, and I have always gotten the feeling that you think home education is ok, but really, the kids who went to the excellent public schools are going to the be the ones ahead in the end. I accept your words at face value if you say it's not true, but you still come across that way.

Then let me tell you your perception is off. So that I'm clear, let me say I think there is probally a very broad range when it comes to "home education" just like there is a very broad range when it comes to public school education.

 

Now I really don't know what goes on in people's homes, but my impression of what's going on in some situations makes me think "these are some of the most fortunate children in the world." They have gifted parents who are creating really unique opportunities for their children that no school could ever hope to duplicate. And it doesn't make me feel envious exactly (maybe a little :D) but certainly awestruck.

 

Beyond that there seem to be a lot of highly dedicated parents—many of whom (not all) who'd be faced with poor public school options—who are acting heroically to help give their children better opportunities.

 

Then, (with many gradations In between) on occasion folks sometimes show up on this forum who seem to have totally neglected their children. Big fails. Do the big fails indict "homeschooling" as a failed model? No.

 

There seems to be the full range, from higly excellent (which to my mind would surpass what happens in good public schools by a wide mark) all the way to catastrophic failure. And a whole range in between.

 

What I think is not helpful, is the notion (that does exist in the homeschooling world) that "the schools are so bad that anything we do at home [meaning: very little] is better than that." I've seen these sort of comments repeatedly over the years, and it makes me cringe. I understand this does not reflect the dominant thinking on this forum (thank goodness), but the 2 hours a day thinking is (to my ears) another form of settling for mediocre.

 

Schools are highly criticized (and quite rightly) when they are mediocre, or worse. Why should home education be different. When schools excell—particularly when they reach kids that might have been missed or written off, they should be praised. Just as parents who worked hard and gave their children the best education they could manage ought to be praised.

 

There is no one perfect model for education. I'm glad we have the freedom to peruse different options. I have strongly positive feelings for those who peruse excellent education in their homes. And am not the least impressed with failing public schools, or teachers that are just marking time.

 

I hope that clarifies things (a little).

 

The comment about being offended that homeschoolers think homeschooling is better was not directed at you ... it was to the woman who listed some vague objectives of her kids' class and said she could never do that at home and then called those of us who are satisfied with our children's home educations "Super Moms" in a rather pejorative way.

If I understand the comment (as I believe it was intended) I relate. The advantages are different. We started *intentional* (by which I mean *formal* in my understanding of the term) at 4. I was very excited to discover many great resources (many, or most, as a result of being on this forum), and was particularly pleased to find things that helped me promote learning in playful and hands-on ways. Ways that inspired my child, and deepened the bond between us.

 

That feeling that you all get when you've connected with your child, and the excitement of learning is happening is a feeling I know (and cherish). Few things top it.

 

So we went to school with over a year of (whatever you want to call it) happening at home. I know pride is a sin, but I felt pretty good about what we'd accomplished prior to kindergarten. I was also a little skeptical the school could match the type of learning we'd been doing. And in many ways, they couldn't. Nothing (to my mind) beats a quality one-on-one learning experience.

 

What was different, and I think this was what the poster was getting at—is that the school experience had it's own advantages. We had a great Kindergarten program. I am aware that not all schools do (don't hate me). And what they brought to the table would have totally burned me out if I was fool-hearty enough to try to replicate the things they did there at home. It would not have been appropriate for home, but it made school enriching and fun. Maybe a "Supermom" (or "Superdad") might try to marshall up the myriad of resources needed for the type of classroom days we had in K, but not me. I volunteered a lot, and got exhausted just thinking about it.

 

Now, do I think children who stay home for kindergarten, and whose parents use methods that are appropriate for home are being "deprived." No. I do not. I DO NOT.

 

And we've maintained our home education/afterschooling because I really believe in the value of the model. And don't think all the activities and resources and learning that happens in full school days (which is considerable in good schools) replaces the value of one-on-one learning. There is something very special about a parent taking his or her time with a child. I hold it among my highest values.

 

Bill

[KathyJo]

What I think is not helpful, is the notion (that does exist in the homeschooling world) that "the schools are so bad that anything we do at home [meaning: very little] is better than that." I've seen these sort of comments repeatedly over the years, and it makes me cringe. I understand this does not reflect the dominantly thinking on this forum (thank goodness), but the 2 hours a day thinking is (to my ears) another form of settling for mediocre.

 

I'm guilty of having said this.  :D

 

Partly, I'm being facetious because I do truly hate public schools. Like anyone else who has rejected an institution because of abuse both received and seen, it's not a position I will apologize for, and I have difficulty being rational about it. *shrug* Generally speaking, I just avoid the topic among people who use public schools.

 

When I've said this, it's generally been to people who thought educating one's children was way too much for parents to handle, and it wasn't ALL I said. It was followed by, "Do a little math, do a little grammar, and then READ, READ, READ." 

 

But, there's an underlying presupposition on my part that makes me believe that statement, and it's my belief that family relationships are best fostered full time rather than part time, and that the bonds built while homeschooling trump any amount of formal schooling. 

 

I hope it goes without saying that I'm not talking about your friendly neighborhood meth-head here. And as both of us have stated before, I also think kids who get too much screen time are going to have a hard time regardless of where they're being educated.

[Dmmetler]

At this point, my DD does spend about 6 hours a day on structured learning, individually or in groups. (working on a middle school/early high school level in most academic areas, and I do count music, art, dance, and tumbling in that time)

 

One difference that I see, though, is that about half of her learning time ends up being spent on things that are considered afterschooling or extracurricular for her PS classmates. She is often the only HSed kids in her groups, whether they're a math enrichment/contest group, a tumbling class that she does as part of her PE, or a music ensemble, but for her, that's part of her school day. She spends about 2 hours a day in group settings (on average)-but if she has a several hour practice one day, that's going to be a day that her "at home" work is lighter because she has the flexibility to budget her time through the week. There's not an 8:00-3:00 "at school" block that is unchangeable if she has a 2 hour math class that night-that day might only be 8:00-12:00 with math from 7:00-9:00.

 

The end result is that she has more downtime, even though, academically, she's learning more because there's no redundancy. Most of what I hear from parents of PS kids is that their child isn't learning anything new in their science or math class (whatever they are afterschooling), but that they still have homework to do (especially in math). So the kids are spending twice the time on the subject, but all the time at school and on things assigned at school is, at  best, review.

 

For me, a perfect school would have to negate any need for afterschooling-that is, it would have to meet her where she is, so that the time spent is spent efficiently and her after school time could be spent on self-directed activities. That may happen in some areas/schools. It doesn't happen here. Even parents in "good schools" generally afterschool in some way-either by doing formal curriculum at home, by paying tutors, or by extracurricular "enrichment" classes that teach subjects at a higher level than the school system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SMRB]

Wow. This discussion surprises me. I have always felt welcome here as an afterschooler and hope that continues to be the case. I am very drawn to homeschooling, but for a variety of reasons and circumstances have enrolled DS in what we believe is an excellent private school. We do before/afterschool/carschool for about 1 hour total every day (1st grade) in subjects such as ancient history to give him a more broad view of the world and exposure to new material that interests him. To that end, I have greatly appreciated the resources and advice here in trying to decide how to best spend our time and what materials to use. I also afterschool because both my son and I truly love and value that extra one on one time together. He asks for it every day, but also does not want to leave his school.

 

With that said, and based on my own experience, I do not believe that my son's great school could replicate the instruction that can be done one-on-one by a committed parent in the same number of hours. He had an amazing and rich Pre-K and K experience, but I know his strengths and weaknesses best and can choose from any material or text on the planet to best serve his needs, without answering to anyone but the man upstairs. No teacher can know my child like I do, and the teacher still has to answer to the administration at the end of the day. No teacher can spend the hours that I do tailoring a day's work to each and every child in the class, even if it is a small class.

 

Now, on the other side, I at home could not replicate the art, music, technology, and science instruction my son will receive at his particular school. The school's funding and resources are amazing, and my son is extremely happy and making great progress there. We value the community he is part of, and the fact that he has the opportunity to practice functioning within a larger community that shares our values. We believe that it helps him see the big picture of how to apply our values to everyday life.

 

My son is getting a rich and well balanced overall experience that works for us today. It might not work next year or in a few more, which is why we continually re-evaluate and remain flexible. I envy homeschoolers and the lifestyle and experiences they can give their children. It was not the right choice for us for many reasons, but we afterschool to try to include as much of that world as we can to strike a balance. Many can achieve that balance fully at home, and again, I do envy you on many days.

 

Balance is the key. Balance of parent-led and child-led activities, balance of independent work and direct instruction, balance of home and community activities. It has nothing to do with hours a day or whether a family chooses to homeschool, afterschool, or use public schools. As parents, we should all be teaching our children 24x7 in the choices we make, conversations we have with our children, and the expectations and example we set. There are many paths to the balance of activities, topics, conversations, etc., and I applaud everyone here who is devoted to finding the best path for their family.

[chiguirre]

And we've maintained our home education/afterschooling because I really believe in the value of the model. And don't think all the activities and resources and learning that happens in full school days (which is considerable in good schools) replaces the value of one-on-one learning. There is something very special about a parent taking his or her time with a child. I hold it among my highest values.

 

 

Yet again, what are the activities and resources and learning that are happening in a full school day at your marvelous public school?

 

Literally, what did your son do yesterday in school? How much time was spent in filling out short answer worksheets, how much time was spent taking turns doing example problems, how much time was spent going around the room having each kid read a paragraph of the history or science text? How much time was spent narrating, how much time was spent in socratic discussion, how much time was spent doing a science experiment? How much time was spent playing a musical instrument or using quality art supplies? It's this level of detail that makes or breaks an education.

 

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but the answer to this question is the crux of the whole hs/b&m debate. In my personal experience and in the anecdotal evidence of my friends who have kids in public and private school, kids spend the vast majority of their time in school doing what is essentially busywork. They fill out reams of worksheets, but have little real knowledge to show for it. By late elementary, most kids complain about how boring school is. I've rarely heard a positive comment about school from a kid older than 8 or 9. When I was their age I felt the same way for the same reason. The occasional interesting science experiment or history project was a wonderful break from the daily monotony, but they were special events in b&m school. If you've found a school that does interesting stuff on a daily basis, I'm impressed and a bit envious, but I've never personally seen one.

[radiobrain]

Edu-speak and Art-speak are based on the same basic root language- B.S.

[Haiku]

Bill, thanks for taking the time to respond. I understand much better now where you are coming from.

[KathyJo]

Wow. This discussion surprises me. I have always felt welcome here as an afterschooler and hope that continues to be the case. 

 

I don't understand why it wouldn't. I also hope you don't expect homeschoolers to not be able to speak freely about homeschooling, why we homeschool, and why we don't like public schools. None of us has to agree. Having strong opinions is not the same as being disrespectful to others.

 

I try not to say intentionally hurtful things. However, I'm also not afraid of speaking my opinion. In the interests of peace and fairness, I would never go to a predominately public school forum and begin bashing the PS system. OTOH, I don't see any reason to censor myself regarding my feelings about PS on a forum about home education.

[SMRB]

I don't understand why it wouldn't. I also hope you don't expect homeschoolers to not be able to speak freely about homeschooling, why we homeschool, and why we don't like public schools. None of us has to agree. Having strong opinions is not the same as being disrespectful to others.

 

I try not to say intentionally hurtful things. However, I'm also not afraid of speaking my opinion. In the interests of peace and fairness, I would never go to a predominately public school forum and begin bashing the PS system. OTOH, I don't see any reason to censor myself regarding my feelings about PS on a forum about home education.

 

I think we're on the same page. I don't expect you to censor - I fully realize that I'm in a homeschooling forum. I value hearing why and how everyone here chooses to approach and implement homeschooling. I do not think you have been disrespectful. I am just surprised that there is even a debate, because I don't think anyone can compare what any two families do, whether it be homeschooling or afterschooling, because any 2 given families are apples and oranges. I respect and envy homeschoolers - that's why I'm here. My son and I would not be where we are were it not for everyone here and the help and ideas I get!

[KathyJo]

I think we're on the same page. I don't expect you to censor - I fully realize that I'm in a homeschooling forum. I value hearing why and how everyone here chooses to approach and implement homeschooling. I do not think you have been disrespectful. I am just surprised that there is even a debate, because I don't think anyone can compare what any two families do, whether it be homeschooling or afterschooling, because any 2 given families are apples and oranges. I respect and envy homeschoolers - that's why I'm here. My son and I would not be where we are were it not for everyone here and the help and ideas I get!

 

Sweetheart, if you go start a thread about whether the sky is light blue or dark blue, I bet you'll get at least two pages of debate.  :P

[SMRB]

Sweetheart, if you go start a thread about whether the sky is light blue or dark blue, I bet you'll get at least two pages of debate.  :p

It's cornflower blue.   :rofl:

[KathyJo]

It's cornflower blue.   :rofl:

 

My husband said, on his forum, someone would say...

 

...It's light blue.

 

...It's dark blue.

 

...It's been this color of blue clearly since [enter name of President you don't like] was elected.

 

...It's not really blue at all, it's just the way it looks because of [science technobabble].

 

...In Revelations, it says that the current color of the sky indicates end times.

[Haiku]

It's cornflower blue.  

 

Um, the sky is sky blue. Duh. There's even a Crayola color for it!  :001_tt2:

[KathyJo]

I rest my case.   :party:

[maize]

It's cornflower blue. :rofl:

nope, I just looked out my window, and the sky is GRAY!!!

[ElizabethB]

nope, I just looked out my window, and the sky is GRAY!!!

Nope, I looked out MY window, it is sky blue mixed with white clouds, you are clearly wrong!!

[Embassy]

Bill, I think the issue, from my perspective, is simply that you believe that unstructured play.....be that whatever it is--digging outside, building with Legos, putting on plays, playing with dolls, whatever--is inferior to "what happens in highly functioning schools." You claim that is the case. I say prove that unstructured play is inferior. ;) You expect us to accept a premise that to me doesn't fall under the "presumed true" category.

 

Doris Bergen looked at this issue in her work titled The Role of Pretend Play in Children's Cognitive Development.  She says:

 

The press for "academic readiness" through concentrated and direct teaching of alphabet, number, color, and other skills is now affecting the amount of time allocated for play in preschools. This trend has had a negative effect on social pretend play, which requires extended uninterrupted time periods to develop complexity... There is a growing body of evidence supporting the many connections between cognitive competence and high-quality pretend play. If children lack opportunities to experience such play, their long-term capacities related to metacognition, problem solving, and social cognition, as well as to academic areas such as literacy, mathematics, and science, may be diminished.

 

[Spy Car]

Yet again, what are the activities and resources and learning that are happening in a full school day at your marvelous public school?

 

Literally, what did your son do yesterday in school? How much time was spent in filling out short answer worksheets, how much time was spent taking turns doing example problems, how much time was spent going around the room having each kid read a paragraph of the history or science text? How much time was spent narrating, how much time was spent in socratic discussion, how much time was spent doing a science experiment? How much time was spent playing a musical instrument or using quality art supplies? It's this level of detail that makes or breaks an education.

 

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but the answer to this question is the crux of the whole hs/b&m debate. In my personal experience and in the anecdotal evidence of my friends who have kids in public and private school, kids spend the vast majority of their time in school doing what is essentially busywork. They fill out reams of worksheets, but have little real knowledge to show for it. By late elementary, most kids complain about how boring school is. I've rarely heard a positive comment about school from a kid older than 8 or 9. When I was their age I felt the same way for the same reason. The occasional interesting science experiment or history project was a wonderful break from the daily monotony, but they were special events in b&m school. If you've found a school that does interesting stuff on a daily basis, I'm impressed and a bit envious, but I've never personally seen one.

Well, I know that yesterday he had a cello lesson with the string section of the school orchestra. He plays piano (taking private lessons) and is excited to play a new instrument in an ensemble. In addition to orchestra there is a separate music teacher who comes around to all the classes who teaches a surprising amount of (basic) music theory, in addition to working on rhythm and singing songs (in key).

 

We have an amazing art teacher, who has her own classroom and good supplies. Unfortunately the kids only get specialized art instruction half the year (first semester or last), but what they get is top notch. Teachers, of course, have art and projects in class as well. The current 4th Grade teacher loves ideoms and discussing language and word-play, so yesterday he had the kids do a (literalistic) drawing based on the idiom, "cat's got your tongue."

 

This year's teacher (who I mentioned earlier is a homeschooler) is very outside the box. We have a great faculty, but he is a "special case." He has been recognized with national awards for being an outstanding teacher, and those honors are well deserved.

 

What does on? I don't know everything, but I can give a small taste.

 

The teacher, just so you know, brims with positive energy and enthusiasm for teaching. The kids want to please him, and he doesn't need to be a "disciplinarian" to keep the kid's focused and on task (which can be my son's boy-boy challenge).

 

Most days (from what I understand) start with writing assignments. The teacher is artistic and the assignments play off "writing prompts" of illustrations or drawings that he puts up on the board or Smartboard. The prompts are wordless, and not "explained," it is up to the child to tell the story.

 

The teacher loves good writing and literature. He teaches grammar, both from school materials and from things he brings in. In addition to the morning writing assignments, the children learn a 6-point rubric (whose details I've yet to learn) for effective writing. I have followed this teacher for years, hoping we'd get him, and know the quality of the writing his student produce my years end.

 

Rather that doing the school district assigned "Treasures" book, which anthologies sample chapters from good books—but ones that are arguably below the reading level of this class—he (and the kids, who voted on it) have elected to read the whole Chronicles of Narnia series (remember, I said he is a homeschooler :D)

 

He loves mythology, and it permeates lessons and projects.

 

He loves literary analysis and does use the Socratic method in class with many subjects, but with literature foremost. To encourage the kid to write at their leisure he has created a class blog where student's can, if they wish (it is not required) write about works they are reading. Last night, my son who is plowing through a 400 page book, got on-line to write, and then went back to read (until forced to sleep).

 

With math, he covers the whole school district assigned program briskly (some teachers skip sections, which he only does it he considers it "busy work" and not because he can't keep up. He has also just installed 5 or 6 new computer work-stations where groups of students can work on the Aleks on-line math program (every student has an account). They finish early and then tend to use Singapore suppliments and other suppliments.

 

He is a very pro-technology (which he uses, as opposed to just "looking good"...which is the case in some rooms). So the Smart board gets used in a myriad of ways. He uses it for demonstrations. He will pull out videos, pictures, and other lesson-supporting information. He loves "real" feild trips, but since he can't get enough of those, he uses the Smartboards to arrange "virtual" feild trips with rangers, docents, and volunteers who guide the students through interesting locations by "video conference" so they can see the places and ask questions. He also arranges "video conferences" with other classrooms around the world, so the kid's can do a "virtual" cultural exchange.

 

The kids bring mobile devices to school (mostly iPods and iPads) with approved apps (including my suggestion of "DragonBox") that are used at selected times, and give him the chance for small group time. The iPods/iPads have not been used yet this semester. I spent last night doJwnloading the apps we did not have (starts Monday).

 

For vocabulary and spelling he's tossed out the district list and replaced it with more challenging and interesting words. He likes to discuss things like Greek and Latin roots, and covers (or re-covers) the phonics. I think one could do as well (or better) with Ceasar's English at home, but he is every effective in getting students to incorporate their vocabulary words in their writing over time, and he has an incentive system that rewards this (and many other positive behaviors).

 

For science, he goes crazy every year making different things. One year they had a whole range of terriums to represent different eco-systems (with live animals). Last year, they focused on space exploration, and the kids built a huge lunar module. They got into the physics of thrust, and gravity, and the solar system, and such. They always learn the names of the bones, and things like that. This year—which will be new—the parent's organization has paid for a science lab that will set-up (and clean up) even better experiments that could be done in the classroom, so the teacher is very excite about that. Me too.

 

The school history book (if you can call it that) is really weak and thin. The teacher is a history-nut, and uses his own resources. They do different big projects every year (although visiting a Mission and making one is a constant). Last year the class collectively recreated collonial Williamsburg in a project so massive they had to borrow an entire classroom to display it for open house. They had students (in period dress) who acted as tour guides for all the curious parents from other classes (as no one ones to miss this classroom) and they put on a play about Williamsburg. This year, I imagine it will be something else.

 

While the teacher is bi-lingual, the biggest failing of the district (and one our school has not relieved) is an almost complete lack of foreign language instruction. It is a pretty bad "fail."

 

The kids get PE (beyond the usual Recess and Lunch-Recess) twice a week. I wish it was more, but they have very good coaches who bring in equipment and expose kids to a wide variey of sports in rotation and even have "dance" units, which my son enjoys.

 

I'm sure I'm missing a great deal, but that is a small flavor of this class. Like I said, this one is unique. But we've had the good fortune to have very dedicated and effective teachers all along. K and 4th are going to stand out, because the experience is so rich. But, this is what this year looks like.

 

Bill

 

ETA: I forgot to mention that every year the student's make a short film (and they really do it themselves) that they write, act in, shoot, and edit themselves, that they enter in competitions and almost always win.

 

They also learn to use programs like Notes, Numbers, and Pages to help create reports and presentations. They also learn to new work devices and manage a work-flow of documents between peers and the teacher using programs like AirSharing, DropBox, and DropCopy. Luddites may be horrified (:D) but these kids end up technology-forward beyond their technology-forward school mates by the end of the term.

 

Oh, and there is a Computer Lab where they have classes and can work on projects and reports, and edit using iMovie.

 

So to my mind there is a pretty good balance of everything, except foreign language—the one big fail. History could be deeper and more contextualized; it probably doesn't meet WTM standards. But over-all, not bad.

[Spy Car]

The press for "academic readiness" through concentrated and direct teaching of alphabet, number, color, and other skills is now affecting the amount of time allocated for play in preschools. This trend has had a negative effect on social pretend play, which requires extended uninterrupted time periods to develop complexity... There is a growing body of evidence supporting the many connections between cognitive competence and high-quality pretend play. If children lack opportunities to experience such play, their long-term capacities related to metacognition, problem solving, and social cognition, as well as to academic areas such as literacy, mathematics, and science, may be diminished.

In case 8 or anyone else doubts it, we enjoyed the experience of a play-based (non-academic) so-called "developmental" nursery school that was run on a "coop" basis (so a parent put in one work day in class per child) and was facilitated my a teacher with a masters-degree in early childhood education who strongly supported the role of creative play (as do we).

 

While the kids did do a few short activities (like art projects) to help them learn their colors, or maybe played "hokey pokey" (to help them learn right/left and coordination), and had some "science projects" where they made cool colors or balls out of polymer, the vast majority of the short day was geared towards play. For those of us with one child, it was a godsend to have other children around to play with ( some of you don't have this "problem") and we (both parents and son) made a lot of friends we see regularly to this day.

 

So, once again, it isn't not all one "stereotypical" way. Not every pre-school is crushing kids spirits or chaining them to desks with mountains of workbooks.

 

We learned "academic" things at home in fun ways. The idea that learning has to rob children of their childhoods or of their play-time is preposterous.

 

There is time in a day for both learning and play, and learning can be playful.

 

Bill (who is starting to feel like a broken-record :D)

[8filltheheart]

Doris Bergen looked at this issue in her work titled The Role of Pretend Play in Children's Cognitive Development. She says:

Thanks for the link. I was blessed by being mentored during my undergrad yrs by an elderly psychologist that was strongly opposed to preschool academics. His premise was that that lack of pure imaginative play during early childhood that was leading to the decrease of critical thinking/problem solving skills in his undergrads. :p

 

He mentored my sr project on dramatic and imaginative play on the cognitive development of children and the long- term educational impact. Even back then, I had no problem finding research supporting this position. It is counter to American educational philosophy and is really subverted to the push for the educational solution of younger and younger academic push.

 

I am glad for my undergrad if for no other reason than my experiences with this professor and that sr project. It has completely influenced how my children have been raised and taught. And, in my view, definitely for the better.

[regentrude]

Thanks for the link. I was blessed by being mentored during my undergrad yrs by an elderly psychologist that was strongly opposed to preschool academics. His premise was that that lack of pure imaginative play during early childhood that was leading to the decrease of critical thinking/problem solving skills in his undergrads.

 

He mentored my sr project on dramatic and imaginative play on the cognitive development of children and the long- term educational impact.

 

Thank you for mentioning this!

Up to about age 12, my children spent hundreds of hours role playing fantasy worlds, complete with rituals and mythologies and different characters, both with playmobil and in the woods without any toys or props. I always considered this kind of play as of the highest priority, and I am convinced that this had a direct impact on their creative thinking as well as on their writing abilities.

[garddwr]

Thank you for mentioning this!

Up to about age 12, my children spent hundreds of hours role playing fantasy worlds, complete with rituals and mythologies and different characters, both with playmobil and in the woods without any toys or props. I always considered this kind of play as of the highest priority, and I am convinced that this had a direct impact on their creative thinking as well as on their writing abilities.

 

Regentrude, I know your children are older than mine, but I really hope you stick around the boards after they have graduated from high school. Your posts always seem to resonate with me.

[msk]

I love the non-academic preschool my kids attend(ed).  Among other things, it intentionally taught kids how to deal with other human beings.  For example, there were never quite enough of things for each kid to have their own, so kids had to figure out how to take turns, and the teachers and aides were very involved in modeling ways to do this and making suggestions. 

 

I know a lot of people are going to be very dismissive of this, but learning how to deal with other people, especially people different from themselves or who they wouldn't normally choose to be around, has been a very valuable skill for my kids.  My 2nd grader shows a level of tolerance, compassion, and appreciation of others' differences now that I really value.  She may be slightly bored when the class repeats a concept she already understands, but I am SO happy she has learned not to sit there seething with resentment at the kids who "hold her back" or looking down on them.  She knows from experience that later that day the kid who can't add at grade level will beat her at basketball or paint a better picture than she can.  I realize she is not moving ahead as efficiently as she could be, but at the moment I am happy with the pace she has-- we're not striving for our 2nd-grader to be the very farthest ahead possible, we want a good well-rounded education in more than just academics (as do many HSers).  My kids are learning to respect those different from themselves by *actually spending time* with such kids every day, not by reading books about it or having occasional earnest conversations with me with no regular experiences to back them up.

 

Can homeschoolers replicate this aspect of PS?  Sure.  The posters earlier whose kids were in regular outside classes or clubs are probably doing it.  But I've also seen enough posts about how to ensure that one's activities excluded "certain people" (ones from a different religion, or with behavioral issues, or with lower IQs, or whatever) on this board to suggest some people are not doing it.  I realize sometimes things don't work out the way they have for us, and I wouldn't leave my 7yo in a situation that made her lastingly unhappy.  Still, the fact that she is learning this particular kind of patience, tolerance, and compassion happily at a school she enjoys, while getting an education I am happy with, is a benefit of our particular PS experience for our particular family situation.  It's another item to add to the list of things "accomplished" in a PS day-- some people may not value this particular lesson, but I do, and I am glad at least some HSers do too.

[musicianmom]

SpyCar, I notice that your son's teacher has substituted materials to fit his class. From my understanding, many school districts would never allow that. The teacher has to cover exactly what is specified in order to get ready for state testing.

 

I will concede that if I had the opportunity for my child to be in a class like that, I would probably take it.

 

Here's an example of what teachers have to do in my state. I know of a teacher who, whenever a student asks a question that is off topic, she writes it on a list. That list is left in her desk until after state testing is over. Then for the remainder of the year, the teacher has some flexibility and can answer the questions (assuming the kids still care). Kindergarten students get packets of homework sent home every week. The schools administer tests to kids every year starting in K to get them ready for the one that counts in 3rd. And to make sure the kids take the test seriously, it counts for 15% of their report card grade.

[8filltheheart]

I love the non-academic preschool my kids attend(ed). Among other things, it intentionally taught kids how to deal with other human beings. For example, there were never quite enough of things for each kid to have their own, so kids had to figure out how to take turns, and the teachers and aides were very involved in modeling ways to do this and making suggestions.

 

I know a lot of people are going to be very dismissive of this, but learning how to deal with other people, especially people different from themselves or who they wouldn't normally choose to be around, has been a very valuable skill for my kids. My 2nd grader shows a level of tolerance, compassion, and appreciation of others' differences now that I really value. She may be slightly bored when the class repeats a concept she already understands, but I am SO happy she has learned not to sit there seething with resentment at the kids who "hold her back" or looking down on them. She knows from experience that later that day the kid who can't add at grade level will beat her at basketball or paint a better picture than she can. I realize she is not moving ahead as efficiently as she could be, but at the moment I am happy with the pace she has-- we're not striving for our 2nd-grader to be the very farthest ahead possible, we want a good well-rounded education in more than just academics (as do many HSers). My kids are learning to respect those different from themselves by *actually spending time* with such kids every day, not by reading books about it or having occasional earnest conversations with me with no regular experiences to back them up.

 

Can homeschoolers replicate this aspect of PS? Sure. The posters earlier whose kids were in regular outside classes or clubs are probably doing it. But I've also seen enough posts about how to ensure that one's activities excluded "certain people" (ones from a different religion, or with behavioral issues, or with lower IQs, or whatever) on this board to suggest some people are not doing it. I realize sometimes things don't work out the way they have for us, and I wouldn't leave my 7yo in a situation that made her lastingly unhappy. Still, the fact that she is learning this particular kind of patience, tolerance, and compassion happily at a school she enjoys, while getting an education I am happy with, is a benefit of our particular PS experience for our particular family situation. It's another item to add to the list of things "accomplished" in a PS day-- some people may not value this particular lesson, but I do, and I am glad at least some HSers do too.

I agree that all of those are valuable life skills, but they do not have to be in a particular environment like school to learn them. For some families, out side activities may be where they encounter them, but they can also learn all of these skills in their family or simply playing with friends and their friends' siblings. My kids have to share. They have siblings that surpass them in academic areas even though they are 2 or 3 yrs younger than they are. I do not tempt to disguise or "lessen the blow" that they have siblings working ahead of them. They have a disabled brother who has very challenging behaviors. Even without walking out our door, they daily (all day every day ;) ) deal with most of what you have mentioned.

[Spy Car]

SpyCar, I notice that your son's teacher has substituted materials to fit his class. From my understanding, many school districts would never allow that. The teacher has to cover exactly what is specified in order to get ready for state testing.

Here is the way this works. The better the school does on standardized tests the more they can get away with in terms of ignoring (or "pretending to use") district mandated materials. The district has its hands full scrutinizing the marginal schools (and I'm sure there is an arguement whether this is helpful, or not), but the truth is our district has a very heavy percentage of students from native Spanish speaking families and a lot of students from impoverished backgrounds. So, the district makes "district-wide" buying decisions (I believe we are #2 in the nation in terms of size).

 

What might be a great choice for a school with high numbers of "English-learners" might not be the best choice for a school where parents tend to be highly-educated and well-off.

 

So there is some latitude for substitution at better performing schools. Most teachers still use most of the materials—and they know very well they better cover state standards and get good test scores or the district, the Principal, and (not the least) parent will be all over them. The testing thing is a huge deal, as I'm sure you all are aware. Our school typically gets 97-93% "profficientcy" and has some of the highest APIs in the district. But teachers still feel a little stressed.

 

In addition to better schools having less scrutiny, the fact is that "star teachers" can get away with more. This is to always universally popular with other teacher in the school, so maybe I won't say more. The good thing is there is more than one way to meet state standards, and smart Principals know when to look the other way.

 

I will concede that if I had the opportunity for my child to be in a class like that, I would probably take it.

This guy is amazing. And not the norm, even at a good school.

 

Here's an example of what teachers have to do in my state. I know of a teacher who, whenever a student asks a question that is off topic, she writes it on a list. That list is left in her desk until after state testing is over. Then for the remainder of the year, the teacher has some flexibility and can answer the questions (assuming the kids still care). Kindergarten students get packets of homework sent home every week. The schools administer tests to kids every year starting in K to get them ready for the one that counts in 3rd. And to make sure the kids take the test seriously, it counts for 15% of their report card grade.

Sounds bad. They don't really test here until 2nd. The tests are a big deal for teachers—it impacts them—it does not seem to be a big deal for students, who seem to take it in stride. I bet many teacher wish the kids felt more stressed, truth told :D

 

Bill

[Embassy]

I agree that all of those are valuable life skills, but they do not have to be in a particular environment like school to learn them. For some families, out side activities may be where they encounter them, but they can also learn all of these skills in their family or simply playing with friends and their friends' siblings. My kids have to share. They have siblings that surpass them in academic areas even though they are 2 or 3 yrs younger than they are. I do not tempt to disguise or "lessen the blow" that they have siblings working ahead of them. They have a disabled brother who has very challenging behaviors. Even without walking out our door, they daily (all day every day ;) ) deal with most of what you have mentioned.

 

:iagree:  Real life involves encounters with people with different needs and strengths.  My kids had to learn quite early on that it is fine for other people to be themselves with the strengths and weaknesses involved just as it is fine for them to be who they are.  I don't hide my children's strengths from each other.  They know that it is okay for their sibling to shine at something they don't.

 

My kids have squabbles.  They have to learn to work through their problems to come to a solution where both parties are happy.  This is something they have to practice daily since I rarely involve myself in their arguments.

 

We learn about others in books too so that when we do encounter others that are different, they will have an understanding.  For example, this month we have been studying about Iran and last weekend we happened to meet a woman who had come from Iran earlier in the week.  Real life can be a great teacher.  A neighborhood school will have children with differences, but it is usually limited to children who live a life quite similar to each other.  

 

I think it all comes down to what the parent values.  If a parent values compassion and appreciation of other people, the child will get exposure to that in day to day life whether or not the child goes to B&M school or is homeschooled.

[KathyJo]

I'm sure I'm missing a great deal, but that is a small flavor of this class. Like I said, this one is unique. But we've had the good fortune to have very dedicated and effective teachers all along. K and 4th are going to stand out, because the experience is so rich. But, this is what this year looks like.

Thank you for giving specific examples, Bill.

 

I say the following to reiterate a previous point, that many of the activities that you feel a parent couldn't replicate, I personally wouldn't want to replicate. This is NOT to bash your child's opportunities in any way.

 

You're lucky to have the opportunities where you are in art and music, definitely. We have a harder time with that.

 

For much of the rest of it, we do some similar things, and I disapprove of other parts of it. I asked for specifics, so I'll give specifics. Namely, we also cover reading through real books instead of bits of books. Actually, we even teach grammar through literature. But, we don't—won't—do creative writing, with writing prompts or otherwise, and we don't do spelling or vocabulary lists. I consider them wastes of time. We study phonograms and do prepared dictation for spelling, which is far more efficient in my opinion, and vocabulary just happens as one reads more. Writing begins through imitation, building up to persuasive essays. I ought to post my oldest son's retelling of The Birds, the Beasts, and the Bats, retold in the style of Lovecraft. It's a hoot. And it's amazing how much children absorb about good writing through both reading and imitating good writing over the course of years.

 

Really, most of our studies are literature and living book based. We currently have a family wide world geography through literature study going. Maps are during formal lesson times, but the literature portion is our evening read-aloud. Science and history consist of spines and lots of additional reading. Sometimes we do experiments, sometimes we do a project. I don't consider those as important as some do, though the boys like them when we do. We do talk a lot about what we're learning, often as a family since everyone is doing the same time period and branch of science.

 

We have a farm. Hands on botany and zoology are constant. We're also off-grid, so discussions about solar power, water, and taking care of the environment are also pretty regular.

 

This morning, while my 12yos was telling me about what he'd read about Ford and the automobile, we had a discussion on the phrase "cranking" one's car. I knew this one. For others, we head over to Prof. Google's class and do a quick search.

 

We don't have a lot of computer time, but again, that's because I mostly consider it unnecessary. That's another argument for another day. ;) My son who is most interested in graphic design, my 12yos, had what he called "Experiment House" where he explored Microsoft Word and learned how to handle the basics plus. I'm also teaching both the older boys InDesign, though only the younger seems interested in Photoshop and Illustrator. My 9yos only does his typing, dictations, and narrations on the computer so far.

 

I bet if we could create an objective standard of comparison, your kid would come out ahead in some areas of opportunity, and mine in others. And for some things mentioned, we simply disagree on whether they're opportunities or time wasters. :-) So again, my point: The parts of your child's day that I consider worth emulating are things that we can, and do, include at home. There are other aspects that I simply don't want for my children. We save the time those activities take. By not trying to do all subjects every single day (as many, though not all, schools do), plus having a very small class size, we can cover a remarkable amount in a short period of time. And here, I'm comparing formal instructional time to formal instructional time. Reading is going to take more time, and special projects/experiments are certainly not daily. As they get older, writing and math take longer.

 

But yes, even having seen an example of the day in the life at a good school, I believe that we give at least comparable opportunities in 2 hours for the younger grades.

[chiguirre]

I'm sure I'm missing a great deal, but that is a small flavor of this class. Like I said, this one is unique. But we've had the good fortune to have very dedicated and effective teachers all along. K and 4th are going to stand out, because the experience is so rich. But, this is what this year looks like.

 

 

Your son's class sounds very nice, but it's not something that homeschoolers can't replicate. It's not even that different than the special activities my local, ordinary public and private schools do. String ensemble is very standard in most economically advantaged districts and most hsers with the financial resources take advantage of the hs choirs and orchestras available. This is T's second year in a hs string ensemble and both G and T's first year in a hs choir class that teaches sight reading and solfege. They're good quality programs and I'm very glad we have them, but they're not extraordinary.

 

Our local museums offer classes to hsers. We've done the Natural Science Museum's classes since T was in 1st grade. They're awesome (and available to psers--there's often a field trip there when we go). But again, not out of the ordinary.

 

There are tons of local and online lit groups available. T loves Athena's Advanced Academy, heck, I love AAA. But again, this is easily accessible to hsers. In fact, they take vouchers from the California home based instruction academies.

 

We have a homeschool tennis team, drama class, fencing, art, mosaic, American Girl based history, sewing, chess, etc. in my medium sized suburb.

 

I didn't even count these things as part of our academic day, because we do them for enrichment. T and I spend 2 hours at the table cranking through math, LA and Latin. Then she does her sports, music and preps for her online lit and history classes. She considers those fun, they're not part of school for her (shhh, don't disabuse her of that point of view).

 

Not everyone has physical or financial access to the classes we do, but not every ps kid gets to do string ensemble and have PTA financed outside science labs. But, hsers with a decent budget (less than what my local Catholic school charges) can put together a great education easily and in much less time than what ps takes.

[boscopup]

I know a lot of people are going to be very dismissive of this, but learning how to deal with other people, especially people different from themselves or who they wouldn't normally choose to be around, has been a very valuable skill for my kids.

 

What makes you think homeschooled kids aren't around people different from themselves? Siblings, people at the grocery store, people at church, people at the park, people at the zoo, people at Walmart (my goodness, THAT is a place to go to see different people :lol:)...

 

None of what you mentioned are issues for my kids at all. They are around people smarter and less smart themselves on a regular basis (and we don't do co-op or any kind of homeschool classes). They learn to share (siblings!!!). They see people of all kinds of economic situations, different races, etc. They see disabled people, mentally ill people, etc. They are actually exposed to more "different" people than I ever was in my middle class mostly-white (with a few Asians, plus a handful of blacks bused in from across town) schools. :tongue_smilie:

 

When we go to the park, my kids play with whoever is there, regardless of age, race, religion, IQ, etc. They go up and say hi and ask the kid to play with them. My poor, unsocialized homeschooled kids. :rolleyes:

[Spy Car]

Your son's class sounds very nice, but it's not something that homeschoolers can't replicate.

I said that I felt the Kindergarten experience would be very difficult to replicate at home. That judgement stands.

 

I agree that much of what takes place in 4th Grade could be duplicated (and sometimes bettered) at home, but it would require a parent to "bust a hump" (seriously) and more than 2 hours of homeschool per day.

 

Your homeschool sounds nice.

 

Bill

[momma2three]

What makes you think homeschooled kids aren't around people different from themselves? Siblings, people at the grocery store, people at church, people at the park, people at the zoo, people at Walmart (my goodness, THAT is a place to go to see different people :lol:)...

 

None of what you mentioned are issues for my kids at all. They are around people smarter and less smart themselves on a regular basis (and we don't do co-op or any kind of homeschool classes). They learn to share (siblings!!!). They see people of all kinds of economic situations, different races, etc. They see disabled people, mentally ill people, etc. They are actually exposed to more "different" people than I ever was in my middle class mostly-white (with a few Asians, plus a handful of blacks bused in from across town) schools. :tongue_smilie:

 

When we go to the park, my kids play with whoever is there, regardless of age, race, religion, IQ, etc. They go up and say hi and ask the kid to play with them. My poor, unsocialized homeschooled kids. :rolleyes:

 

I don't think that school is the only place for "socialization," but surely you recognize that there's a huge difference between having to maintain a working relationship with someone for an extended period of time (up to 12 years) and picking out a playmate on a playground, or seeing another shopper from afar at Wal-Mart?

[Spy Car]

I really don't enjoy coming to a home ed forum and hearing over and over that I'm deluded to think my 9 year old is getting at least the equivalent of a good public school education.

 

I'm a smart mama, with plenty of experience of public schools AND A CHILD IN PS, and when I say my fourth grader ( 2.5hr academic instruction ) is receiving a more efficient, less stressful and more individualised education - complete with freedom from institutional b/s - I'm grounded in a sane, accurate and informed description.

 

Spycar, I normally agree with your posts. On this one, you are showing a lack of understanding of how full time home education works. I am glad for you your child has an excellent school. Your constant insistence that I - and other mamas - are 'deluded' isn't worthy of your usually insightful and well informed posts.

I don't think 2 hours qualifies as "full time." And I seriously doubt that number accurately reflects the hours actually spent per day in successful homeschools on a daily basis. I can not imagine how anyone could get the same level of learning in 2 hours a day that good schools do in a day.

 

I mean, I teach at home too. I think we are pretty efficient. But 2 hours vs a full day? Can't see it. Sorry.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Well, on this you're wrong. You need to educate yourself a little on how full time homeschooling in the younger grades works.

Well, I do use many of the very same materials at home that you all use. I'm not entirely clueless about home education.

 

Bill

[KathyJo]

I don't think that school is the only place for "socialization," but surely you recognize that there's a huge difference between having to maintain a working relationship with someone for an extended period of time (up to 12 years) and picking out a playmate on a playground, or seeing another shopper from afar at Wal-Mart?

 

 

I started to respond, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. You don't honestly believe that everyone needs some sort of "socialization" in order to interact respectfully with others, do you?

 

We handle this according to our belief system by teaching, quite simply, that people AREN'T different. Sure, they may come in different colors, believe different things, and have different abilities, but we treat them all with respect, the way we want to be treated. I never understand why people think this is an issue.

[momma2three]

Seriously ? You don't think home schoolers have sustained relationships ? That's one area where I do 'bust a hump'. My 9 year old has been in the same small co-op with the same children for 4 years now. Yes, they have to learn how to get along, how to work together.

 

Schools, in my actual experience, do a very poor job of facilitating peer relationships.

 

I didn't say that AT ALL, and it's really hard to believe that you read it that way.  I said that the examples given are a totally inadequate response to the original charge.

[KathyJo]

I didn't say that AT ALL, and it's really hard to believe that you read it that way.  I said that the examples given are a totally inadequate response to the original charge.

 

Please go re-read your post, because I can't figure out any other way to understand it. I'd be happy to try to understand what you were saying. From my POV, it was not clear at all.

[Spy Car]

I'm not talking about materials.

So what are you talking about? Some "lifestyle" that I can't possibly understand?

 

Bill

[chiguirre]

I mean, I teach at home too. I think we are pretty efficient. But 2 hours vs a full day? Can't see it. Sorry.

 

How long do you spend on a math lesson from SM or Beast Academy? We do about 10 minutes of face time and 30 minutes of seat work a day and that gets us through SM, IP and CWP plus Fred and some puzzle books a year.

 

MCT LA takes even less over all. We spend about 20 minutes and get through a level a year.

 

First Form Latin takes about 20 minutes a day because T is good at remembering vocabulary and grammar forms.

 

The seatwork just doesn't take that long. Science and history are more of a hodge podge but don't take more than a couple hours a week of mom-imposed reading and activities.

[momma2three]

You're quoting other posters ? So you don't think homeschoolers pass off 'seeing another shopper at Walmart from afar' as socialisation ?

 

In that case, my apologies.

 

The conversation went:

 

Person A: "learning to get along with other people in school has been valuable for my child."

Person B: "My children see lots of other people.  For example, at Wal-Mart and on the playground."

Me: "Person A was talking about something very different."

 

It's hard that this forum doesn't quote the whole conversation, and just the previous post you're responding to, so it can be hard to follow the whole conversation.  But Person B's response was quoted in what I said.  Maybe other people are reading it differently, but I'm reading Person A and Person B as talking about totally different things, and Person B's response is very unlikely to sway Person A's opinion with that response, because they are talking about different things.

[momma2three]

Please go re-read your post, because I can't figure out any other way to understand it. I'd be happy to try to understand what you were saying. From my POV, it was not clear at all.

 

I think I paraphrased the conversation in my post above.  I hope that clears things up.

[KathyJo]

How long do you spend on a math lesson from SM or Beast Academy? We do about 10 minutes of face time and 30 minutes of seat work a day and that gets us through SM, IP and CWP plus Fred and some puzzle books a year.

 

MCT LA takes even less over all. We spend about 20 minutes and get through a level a year.

 

First Form Latin takes about 20 minutes a day because T is good at remembering vocabulary and grammar forms.

 

The seatwork just doesn't take that long. Science and history are more of a hodge podge but don't take more than a couple hours a week of mom-imposed reading and activities.

 

This. It's just. not. that. hard.

 

Where's the "fist banging on the table" smiley!  :D

[Haiku]

I agree that much of what takes place in 4th Grade could be duplicated (and sometimes bettered) at home, but it would require a parent to "bust a hump" (seriously) and more than 2 hours of homeschool per day.

 

My younger two are in 5th and 6th. I don't feel like I have ever "busted a hump" to give them an excellent education, yet they are both doing well and experiencing many of the things that schools call "enrichment." ("Enrichments" are just part of our normal life.)

 

My kids have played soccer, hockey, and baseball (in fact, my son just made a travel hockey team in the Tier 1 Elite league, one of the highest-level youth hockey organizations in the country). They have participated in swimming and homeschool gyms as well as weekly ice skating that isn't tied to their hockey. They have been in book clubs, library advisory boards, art classes, and science clubs. I am currently running a philosophy group for kids ages 10-13, in which both my kids participate. They have spent hours upon countless hours volunteering for an animal welfare organization. They will appear on tv next week to promote local youth hockey. We attend a religious center where they interact on a regular basis with people from all over the world. They have participated in poetry fairs, science fairs, history fairs, culture fairs, and talent shows. I don't consider any of this "school." This is just stuff we do.

 

In "school," the focus on writing well, learning grammar, learning math, logic, memory work, and science/history. We work for about 4 hours a day. We routinely finish curricula in less than a school year. We school four weeks on, one week off, year-round. We end up with around 160 days, which is less than the standard 180 days, but we only have to promise 900 hours of instruction on our homeschool notification, and that 900 hours can include all those things I listed that are "not school" for us. Once I tried to add up all our hours of instruction, and I quit at 1800 (I wasn't done yet).

 

My dd is routinely in the high-90s percentile on her standardized test. My son, who was adopted as a preschooler and has a chronic illness, hearing loss, and persistent speech and language issues (as well as some lingering emotional issues) that we believe are due to the neglect and malnourishment he endured before coming to us, routinely scores around the 50th percentile.

 

I believe I am bright but I am not brilliant. I am not super-energetic, nor am I super-organized. I am not super-motivated. I am, frankly, lazy in that I would much rather lie around and read than exert myself for almost anything (except playing hockey ;) ).

 

Even with my character flaws hindering them, my children are receiving an outstanding education, and I certainly am not "busting my hump."

 

As I mentioned earlier, I would not be able to replicate my oldest dd's high school experience. She went to a college-prep school for kids who need intensive intervention, and they had many, many opportunities available to them in the school and the community. For things like advanced science, which is my 11-year-old's passion, we can use the local community college for high school credit. Many of the other things oldest dd's school offered, I'm not interested in providing my kids, as many others have mentioned. For pretty much everything else, I can find an community-based alternative if I can't do it at home. 

 

None of this would require to me "bust my hump." I just have to be willing to put in the time and effort and dedication to give my kids what they need. I am lucky that I am home during the days (I work evenings) to do this for and with my kids, but even working-during-the-day parents could do it without undue stress or effort.

 

This is not to argue that good schools aren't good. I just don't think that even good schools provide anything superior in the long run, even if the details look different from homeschools.

[Spy Car]

It doesn't suit any poster to be so deliberately dismissive of home education. It is a different lifestyle to public schooling and I know that, because I have a foot in both camps.

 

Materials are simply tools. Either you have widely read differing home education and educational philosophies and chosen to dismiss them in favour of your 'excellent public school model' or you haven't educated yourself widely.

 

Choosing full time home education is not merely about academics.

I have a foot in both camps too. And I did not dismiss anyone's homeschool in favor of our public school. Did I? No, I really did not. In fact I made repeated posts to the contrary. Go read them.

 

I've got no doubt (said for the umpteenth time) that people can achieve great educations at home. In the best cases achieving things no school could hope to. Did you read those posts?

 

But 2 hours a day, from my perspective, is a joke.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Wow, it's interesting how entitled you feel to dismiss women on this thread who disagree with you. I am not an idiot. If I say 2.5 hours academic instruction for my 4th grader is efficient and appropriate and exceeds the public school education my other child receives, the appropriate reaction is not 'your child's education is a joke.'

Good grief.

 

Bill

[chepyl]

When we do a math or grammar lesson, I explain and then we discuss. We do the oral examples or work problems together. He gets to answer ALL of those questions, not maybe get to do 1 while classmates do the others. I know immediately if he does not get it, we correct it and do it again. MUCH more efficient than a classroom model where time is spent on a lesson, you don't know that kids don't get it until the written work is turned in and then you must either move on whether they get it or not, or go back and do the whole thing again. This efficiency allows us to move through our material at a faster pace with less lesson time. 1 on 1 tutoring is so much more efficient than a classroom setting that it should not be surprising that a motivated and focused child can cover: math, reading, spelling, writing, grammar, history, science, Latin (or another language), and Bible or another elective class in just a few hours as opposed to 6-7 hours in school.

 

Is seat work all we do? No! We have dance, theatre, co-op (lots of socialization!), robotics club, pe, free time for art, lego play, swim time, museums, zoo, and lots more. Our time is more laid back. If we spend extra time flying through some math my son loves, we may skip grammar for a day. No problem, next week we will pick up an extra grammar lesson somewhere.

 

We also always finish the text. We had some unfinished history last year, we did it over the summer. I have so many holes in my education from not finishing a text book! I never made it to WWII in any formal school setting (and I went to a highly ranked private college prep school).

 

Our highly ranked, blue ribbon award winning school district uses Everyday Math. My 7 year old is more advanced in math than many 9th graders because he can do math in his head or on paper, he does not need a calculator for long division. Tell me that I am not out doing this "great" PS in a few hours a day.

[KathyJo]

I have a foot in both camps too. And I did not dismiss anyone's homeschool in favor of our public school. Did I? No, I really did not. In fact I made repeated posts to the contrary. Go read them.

 

I've got no doubt (said for the umpteenth time) that people can achieve great educations at home. In the best cases achieving things no school could hope to. Did you read those posts?

 

But 2 hours a day, from my perspective, is a joke.

 

Bill

 

With that last line, you actually managed to irritate me, and I haven't been irritated throughout this thread.

 

From YOUR perspective, sure. But you're NOT a homeschooler. I believe I saw a snarky comment from you earlier suggesting that homeschooling is a "lifestyle" that you don't understand. And yeah, maybe it is, at least the way some of us do things. We can work orally with children who can't write well yet, explain one-on-one instead of to a class, far more efficient time wise, choose how much time to spend on subjects based on the child's maturity and abilities, maybe have a light day and do a project or experiment instead, and yes, do a day's worth of subjects in just a couple of hours.

 

THEN, the child will do some reading. As many have stated, that's not part of what I considered the formal instruction part of our day. It's generally not for public schooled students, either; it's usually homework. Then they give me an informal oral narration of said reading, usually without me even asking. I don't think even my 16yos understands the "narration" aspect. They're just talking to mom, and mom is just listening. See? Not part of the formal instruction time, nothing I wouldn't be doing if they were in school. Writing, for the older kids, is something that would be homework for PS students. For the younger ones, though, it doesn't take long. My 9yos is taking longer lately because I'm letting him type his own narrations now, but still, it's not a huge amount of time.

 

Add up all of this time, and it might be closer to a public school day. But that would be an unfair comparison, since there would be no "homework" involved.

 

As I said earlier in this thread, we either homeschool a few hours a day, or every waking hour. It depends on how you look it.

[ElizabethB]

I did not tell anyone but my MIL how long I spent on K with my daughter until after she took an ITBS for 1st grade. Then, I let the cat out of the bag. We spent less than an hour a day. I do not spend more than 2 hours a day until 3rd grade, and some days 3rd grade takes 2 hours but usually between 2 and 3. People who do not homeschool that know how they are doing are amazed that they could achieve so much in such a short time.

 

They learned far more than the children in any of the public schools where we have lived, even when we lived in one that is ranked top 10 in the nation. I know, I help their friends with their homework and give all their friends reading grade level tests and tutor any of their friends who are reading below grade level. I also try to find out what books the local schools use, I am nosy that way.

 

When we lived in the LA area, for fun my children caught lizards and researched everything about lizards. (Not part of school, just for fun.) They play with Lego technic, lean to sew and draw, etc. They also get some computer time, but I limit it, not a fixed limit, it varies based on the weather. They are amazingly artistic and crafty, I joke that they have their 10,000 hours of arts and crafts time.

 

We went to a school open house, the only thing that I admired that we have not done at home was a huge history diorama. But, this school had failed our friends daughter in math and their son in reading. I was able to get them to grade level and help them while we were there, but they do not have the resources to get the help they need now that we are gone and their kids are not doing well in school again. The school is graded an 8 at great schools, but does not work well for their working poor family without money for tutoring or the ability to help the kids at home. I was not impressed with the writing, it was quantity over quality. The art was fun, but my children have done more on their own and through co-op classes.

 

These children both hated school and begged to be homeschooled by me, not their parents, LOL. I did homeschool them for a week when they were on break but we weren't, they said my school was way more fun then their school and much more efficient.

[Joker]

I don't know that I should wade in here at all, but here goes.

 

Both of my dds are in public middle school. It's a middle years IB school that's in the top district of our state. The work is challenging and the teachers are awesome. Neither dd has a single teacher that doesn't have at least a Master's.

 

Both dds are straight A students in the Honors Program. We never "did school" for more than three hours through 5th grade (it was usually always closer to two). :blushing:  I always worried that we weren't doing enough because it didn't take very long, but they've had no issues transitioning and are doing extremely well. I've even had one teacher call to let me know how great oldest dd is and thank me for doing such a good job in elementary school.

 

That said, there is no way we could get done with what they are doing now, in public school, in three hours. I knew if we kept homeschooling above elementary school that their workload and hours would rise significantly. Fortunately, we have a great middle school full of great teachers here.