WWYD: Aggressive child in church nursery

[garddwr]

I'm mulling this over and not coming up with any good solutions. Hoping for some hive wisdom!

 

Here's the situation: I help run the nursery at church during Sunday School. We average about 8 children under the age of 4, with two adults (no babies, children have to be at least 18 months to attend). We have play time, snack time, singing time...

There are two siblings in the nursery who are causing more than their share of trouble. Big Sister is about 3.5 years old, smart and cute, but doesn't follow directions and often tries to take toys from other children. Little Brother is about 24 months, one of the smallest children in the nursery, and keeps causing problems by hitting/biting/scratching other children. These aren't wild kids, it's not like they're running around the room causing constant havoc--but if a problem arises, one or the other is usually at the heart of it. One little girl (older than Little Brother) was a victim of his aggression about two months ago and has refused to come to the nursery since. Another girl has also repeatedly ended up in tears because of confrontations with him. Today everything seemed calm when suddenly she was running across the room crying--turned out he had scratched her behind the ear (the scratch was bleeding slightly). I don't know if they both wanted the same toy or the same space or what, but he was definitely the aggressor.

I feel like there have been enough problems, especially with Little Brother, that something needs to change--but I'm not sure what I can do. Mom and Dad both teach Sunday School, or I would ask one of them to stay and help supervise their children. The other nursery teacher and I try to keep an eye on these two, but there we can't watch them all the time. I'm thinking of asking the person in charge of Sunday School to find a third person to help out in the nursery, more adult supervision would certainly help.

I did tell Mom about the scratching incident when she came to pick up her children today, and she took Little Brother over to the girl who was hurt and told him to say sorry--he didn't. I suspect the parents could use some better parenting techniques at home--these are obviously not naturally compliant kids, and I just have the feeling that mom and dad don't really have any idea how to teach/manage their behavior. I don't want to make assumptions though--I am very much aware that what looks like bad parenting really can be just a particularly difficult child. I often think as I watch the children walk out the door every Sunday how glad I am that I don't have to deal with them all week, and I don't want to make someone's parenting burden feel heavier by suggesting they aren't doing a good job.

I guess the best idea I have come up with is to try to get a third adult to help out in nursery and have one of us particularly watch these two. At the least might be able to forestall most problems before they escalate, and maybe teach some better behaviors along the way. If anyone has a better idea please do share!

[SonshineLearner]

Wow, that's hard. Did you time out the child? I would talk to the parents and explain that for a few weeks you're willing to time-out their child, if they'd like. Otherwise you need to have child stay with adults. It's not fair to the other children in the nursery. (or you)

If you can get helpers, I'd have them stay right on top of the child. (teens can sometimes do this well)

It may also help to do some organized "preschool" type activities.

If you have to have the parents keep their children, remember that's not your fault!! Sometimes it's just that parents need to be responsible for their own children!! :( Not everyone can do SS all the time...

Just my opinion :)

[MegP]

I would recruit a teen helper to serve as a one on one aide with this child. She can stop him BEFORE he hits or bites.

[Melinda in VT]

Get a third adult.

 

A more scheduled nursery time might help, but I know that can be tough, especially if the kids have already sat through the main service first.

[Tiberia]

I'd send the problem up the line to the nursery director. If you are the nursery director, I'd put the problem in the parents' laps. I'd ask one of them to stay with their children when in the nursery, or ask them to not put the problem child in the nursery. They will have to find another adult to be with him, or they will have to keep him.

 

I would give him another chance after a few months, but be prepared to kick him out if he is a danger to others. It's not fair to have the other kids afraid to go into nursery. Right now, those (victims') parents are having to make the adjustments. I think the parents of the problem kid should make the adjustments. Just my opinion.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

It sounds like these two need an adult/teen with them at all times. The parents could probably use some parenting help as well. I know i did, and do with ds!

 

Maybe you could direct them to early intervention for the younger one.

[scubamama]

Boy, this is a toughie. You certainly don't want the parents to feel like you're "targeting" their kids - but, if problems happen every week it's not fair to the other kids or you. You can't be everywhere! Some kiddos are just trickier.

 

Hopefully you're documenting and making the parents aware of each incident, so it's not a "But we didn't know!" reaction later.

Does your church have a policy?

 

If a teen/adult helper isn't available or a solution, have the kid(s) go with their parents. There's a season to everything...this may not be their season to teach SS.

 

I hope it all works out for everyone involved,

Michele

[VeganCupcake]

Have you talked to the Primary president? I wonder if there's a chance that one of the parents could be released from teaching SS to attend nursery with the children until things are under control. I know that's not always possible, but it's a thought.

 

Or alternatively, maybe you need a special helper called and assigned to just Little Brother, to redirect him whenever he shows signs of doing something aggressive.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Does the behavior start right out the gate when the kids arrive, or does it take some time before they start testing their boundaries?

[Night Elf]

I would speak to the director. I think it's beyond your hands right now. Other children are no longer safe when these children are in the room. It doesn't always work out fairly because either this family loses out on nursery care or other parents do. My heart hurts for the little girl who is too scared to come back to Sunday School. What a sad message she's receiving about a safe space such as church.

[Lisbeth]

I'd send the problem up the line to the nursery director. If you are the nursery director, I'd put the problem in the parents' laps. I'd ask one of them to stay with their children when in the nursery, or ask them to not put the problem child in the nursery. They will have to find another adult to be with him, or they will have to keep him.

 

I would give him another chance after a few months, but be prepared to kick him out if he is a danger to others. It's not fair to have the other kids afraid to go into nursery. Right now, those (victims') parents are having to make the adjustments. I think the parents of the problem kid should make the adjustments. Just my opinion.

 

This!

[garddwr]

OK, I called and left a message for the person in charge of the Sunday School and nursery. I am hoping to discuss the problem with her and come up with a workable solution. I agree with those who said it is not fair for the other children or their parents. I think the solution will have to be either that someone else takes over teaching for one of the parents so they can be responsible for their own children during this time or that someone else be assigned to work in the nursery specifically to keep an eye on these two. I do think mom and dad could use some parenting guidance--I certainly have needed all I could learn from books and classes and other parents. I can think of a couple of books that have been helpful and if an appropriate opportunity comes up (i.e., if they discuss challenges they are facing with me) I will suggest them. Early Intervention too if it seems they might be open to it. Anything beyond that just feels outside my scope of responsibility/influence at this point since I don't know the parents well.

 

I have to say dealing with this problem has made me really glad I don't run a daycare. Trying to teach and train my own children is quite enough of a challenge.

[Sara in AZ]

Have you talked to the Primary president? I wonder if there's a chance that one of the parents could be released from teaching SS to attend nursery with the children until things are under control. I know that's not always possible, but it's a thought.

 

Or alternatively, maybe you need a special helper called and assigned to just Little Brother, to redirect him whenever he shows signs of doing something aggressive.

 

:iagree:

 

PP should definitely know what's going on. If this were happening in my ward I would like to think they would try to get one of the parents in there. I was visiting nursery with my 17 mo. old today and there was quite a rambunctious 2 year old. The thought crossed my mind that perhaps we needed one adult dedicated just to him! Even then he'd be hard to handle, I think. Nursery is hard!

[Jann in TX]

If this were to happen at our church the child would be put on probation-- this means they could attend only IF a parent attended with them. It seems harsh but even a child under 2 can seriously injure another child.

 

As a mother I would be LIVID if I left my child in a church program and they were 'attacked' by another child who was a 'repeat offender'.

 

I would also be upset if it were my child--not mad at child- more like embarrassed and frustrated!

 

--

Children like this can happen to good parents too-- does not mean they need parenting books-- but they do need a support system and a PLAN OF ACTION.

 

My sister raised 2 'perfect' girls-- then a few years later had her boys. Both boys (boys are 7 years apart in age) were on 'probation' in the nursery before they were 3. Both boys grew out of it... but it was a long haul for the teachers and my sister!

 

--

Adding another helper does not take the liability away from the situation... it only takes a second to poke an eye or create a permanent scar...

[MegP]

But if the parents lack the skills to deal with the behavior, or choose to ignore it, then you are back to square one. So having a parent in the room may not really fix anything.

[fhjmom]

Have you talked to the parents from the perspective of "we are seeing some behaviors from Little Johnnie that are causing problems for other kids and we are not sure how to handle them." Then maybe ask her advice if she has been able to head these things off at home or get her input on how to do so in the nursery. If brainstorming together, y'all come up with the solution to try time-outs or an extra one-on-one worker or whatever, she may be less inclined to take it the wrong way - depending on how you word it of course. Also, she may not realize that their behavior is that out of the ordinary for preschool kids. I would want to know if my kids were behaving in a way that caused problems such as you are describing.

[Remudamom]

Get a couple of teens to come in and assign them each a trouble maker.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I don't want to make someone's parenting burden feel heavier by suggesting they aren't doing a good job.

 

 

I would do this...

 

Have you talked to the parents from the perspective of "we are seeing some behaviors from Little Johnnie that are causing problems for other kids and we are not sure how to handle them." Then maybe ask her advice if she has been able to head these things off at home or get her input on how to do so in the nursery. If brainstorming together, y'all come up with the solution to try time-outs or an extra one-on-one worker or whatever, she may be less inclined to take it the wrong way - depending on how you word it of course. Also, she may not realize that their behavior is that out of the ordinary for preschool kids. I would want to know if my kids were behaving in a way that caused problems such as you are describing.

 

:iagree:

 

And I would be downright mortified if I found out that you discussed my kids' routine bad behavior with others before you brought it up to me. Mortified and frustrated. You are not adding to her burden by telling her that the kids are being aggressive. You are telling her information she needs and deserves as a parent. Now, if she gives you attitude or the situation doesn't resolve after talking to her, then naturally you will need to speak with higher-ups. But before then, I kind of think it's offensive.

[DianeW88]

You need another nursery helper just to watch those two. LOL See if a member of the Primary presidency can come in there with you next week so she can observe the problem.

 

When I was Nursery leader, we had a biter. He always managed to do it so fast that it was almost impossible to prevent it from happening. We finally did get someone called whose main responsibility was just to watch this kid.

 

As someone else said, parents aren't always helpful, because they usually don't do anything, and then you're forced to scold their kid in front of them...that's always worse. The parents in the biter case were very lax parents. No firm rules, always let their little darling do whatever he wants with no consequences for misbehavior. We started putting him in time out, with one Nursery worker to sit right there with him...otherwise he refused to stay. It was a struggle, but once he understood there were consequences for misbehavior, he improved.

 

If all else fails, take him to the Primary room to sit with one of the Presidency, or take him to his parents...although I know that can be frowned upon. Children aren't "kicked out" of Nursery in the LDS church. As much as Nursery leaders may want to sometimes. :lol:

[FaithManor]

At our church, the policy is that biting results in the child being taken immediately to the parent and the child can not return to the nursery for three months..second incident, six months...third incident, no nursery privileges until the child is old enough to graduate to the pre-school program. Biting really, really hurts and it's traumatic for the child that gets bitten.

 

Scratching that produces blood also means the offending child will be taken by an usher to the parent in service or the usher will go get the parent to retrieve their child. Multiple incidents will mean that the parent will be told the child can't come to nursery again for three months.

 

It seems harsh because little ones can be unpredictable and you hate to punish the parent. But, after dealing with the some biters and little fighters, it became apparent to the church board that the innocent needed to be protected because there were incidents every single Sunday or Wednesday night and it was wearing out the volunteers.

 

Faith

[MegP]

At our church, the policy is that biting results in the child being taken immediately to the parent and the child can not return to the nursery for three months..second incident, six months...third incident, no nursery privileges until the child is old enough to graduate to the pre-school program. Biting really, really hurts and it's traumatic for the child that gets bitten.

 

Scratching that produces blood also means the offending child will be taken by an usher to the parent in service or the usher will go get the parent to retrieve their child. Multiple incidents will mean that the parent will be told the child can't come to nursery again for three months.

 

It seems harsh because little ones can be unpredictable and you hate to punish the parent. But, after dealing with the some biters and little fighters, it became apparent to the church board that the innocent needed to be protected because there were incidents every single Sunday or Wednesday night and it was wearing out the volunteers.

 

Faith

 

This sounds AWESOME!!!!

[kalanamak]

Hummm, I am wondering how many people think a 24 month old child can apologize and mean it. (Perhaps my boy lacked moral depth at that age.)

[Spock]

Hummm, I am wondering how many people think a 24 month old child can apologize and mean it. (Perhaps my boy lacked moral depth at that age.)

 

I kind of wonder if the child even remembered what he had done by the time Mom came to pick him up and asked him to apologize. 2yos tend to live in the moment, and 20-60 minutes is an eternity to them. [Most Sunday School nursery programs I have experience with last about 30 minutes to an hour or a little more if they are only during one church service or adult Sunday School, or double that if they last through both the church service and adult Sunday School.]

 

I have taught 2yos, and we did put them in time out for 2-4 minutes for things like this. We also asked them to "say sorry"--which they interpreted as hug each other. No one expected them to really understand what the apology was all about. The point was just to accustom them to the idea that when you hurt someone you say you are sorry. I don't think it would have done even that if we had waited until pick up time (for Sunday School) or 20-40 minutes later (for the all day daycare) to do the apology.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Spock

[DianeW88]

I kind of wonder if the child even remembered what he had done by the time Mom came to pick him up and asked him to apologize. 2yos tend to live in the moment, and 20-60 minutes is an eternity to them. [Most Sunday School nursery programs I have experience with last about 30 minutes to an hour or a little more if they are only during one church service or adult Sunday School, or double that if they last through both the church service and adult Sunday School.]

 

I have taught 2yos, and we did put them in time out for 2-4 minutes for things like this. We also asked them to "say sorry"--which they interpreted as hug each other. No one expected them to really understand what the apology was all about. The point was just to accustom them to the idea that when you hurt someone you say you are sorry. I don't think it would have done even that if we had waited until pick up time (for Sunday School) or 20-40 minutes later (for the all day daycare) to do the apology.

 

An LDS church nursery is approximately two hours long. Officially it's one hour and 45 minutes, but sometimes mom and dad dawdle a bit in picking up the 18 month to 3 year old set. :lol:

[garddwr]

I kind of wonder if the child even remembered what he had done by the time Mom came to pick him up and asked him to apologize. 2yos tend to live in the moment, and 20-60 minutes is an eternity to them. [Most Sunday School nursery programs I have experience with last about 30 minutes to an hour or a little more if they are only during one church service or adult Sunday School, or double that if they last through both the church service and adult Sunday School.]

 

I have taught 2yos, and we did put them in time out for 2-4 minutes for things like this. We also asked them to "say sorry"--which they interpreted as hug each other. No one expected them to really understand what the apology was all about. The point was just to accustom them to the idea that when you hurt someone you say you are sorry. I don't think it would have done even that if we had waited until pick up time (for Sunday School) or 20-40 minutes later (for the all day daycare) to do the apology.

 

I agree with you that 2 year olds won't likely remember specific circumstances for very long. In this case, the incident happened just a few minutes before mom came to pick him up, and the little girl was still upset--and it had only been a couple of minutes since I took him aside and explained that he had made her cry. I asked him to say sorry and he didn't, but I wasn't sure he even knew the word (my 2 year old hasn't learned to say it yet, although he will hug). Mom said he could say sorry but probably wouldn't if asked, but she tried. I think that some kind of expression of apology is important both for the offender and the victim, and it is certainly something that can be taught at this age even though the children might have a minimal understanding of what it really means. I have used time-outs with both Little Brother and Big Sister, but I think we really need a more preventative solution--i.e., someone assigned just to keep an eye on them. Big Sister can also act aggressively, but she's easier to catch before she actually hurts someone. With Little Brother it seems to come out of the blue.

 

I'll probably be talking to both mom and the People in Charge within the next few days to come up with some solutions.

[MomatHWTK]

I would speak to the director. I think it's beyond your hands right now. Other children are no longer safe when these children are in the room.

 

:iagree:The whole matter needs to be handled by the next level especially since the parents are also teachers. Are they maintaining control of their own classes? I know it's not always the parenting that causes the problem, but I would want to at least know that some basic skills were present.

[gardenmom5]

I would agree with talking to the PP, and someone specifically for these children. I would think a lot of individual positive attention at this age should be helpful if there is nothing physiologically wrong. I wonder if there is a food allergy/sensitivity - you'd be surprised at the behavior reactions they can wreck. years ago I was in nursery and one little boy would go ballistic (hyper/bouncing off walls/causing trouble) if he had chedder cheese - other cheese he was okay. there was a defininte reaction. some food sensitivites can take weeks to metabolize out of the system and stop reacting once it has been removed.

 

I do want to say - I had a PP tell me to my face, twice, my son's problems were me. (he *hated* nursery) he was undiagnosed aspergers. he's also terribly sensitive to nitrates (bacon/cured meats/hot dogs) and they make him aggressive. just removing them from his diet had a big impact.

 

eta: food sensitivities will often run in families.

Edited July 2, 2012 by gardenmom5

[beaners]

I feel like I'm missing something. Why are posters recommending early intervention for this family?

 

I agree that talking to the parents is probably the best solution. I don't know about your church, but at most of the churches I've attended, it's tough to find parents to teach Sunday School classes. If either parent needed to stop teaching their class, it would be a scramble to fill that spot. It would make the whole thing more complicated, although that's certainly not the fault of anyone in the nursery. I hope everyone can find a good solution.

[Pippen]

I was the toddler room coordinator for many years. Sometimes we'd have little ones come through who were more aggressive, or occasionally we'd have children who weren't aggressive by nature just go through a brief biting stage. Like the other poster mentioned, we'd give them a short timeout with a simple, stern warning and then watch them like a hawk.

 

Our approach was to let the parents know, and then to bring in extra help so we'd have a one-on-one for the child who was causing the disruption. IMO, at this age it's better to have another person than the parent be that one-on-one. First, because the child becomes accustomed to having mom or dad there and we hoped to give our parents a break so they could worship or serve. Second, because parents of biting and/or aggressive can become very defensive, etc. and it often makes an awkward situation between parents and other volunteers.

[UnsinkableKristen]

I just wanted to thank you for being so gracious to this family. You obviously are trying to be kind to them and their children and that is so nice. Having had "that kid" I appreciate you trying to give them some grace and not assume that they are terrible parents. All too often we leap to the worst without trying other options and I think you are being wonderful by not doing that.

 

 

 

(typing on my iPad, sorry for any errors!!)

[8circles]

I don't think this family needs early intervention and I agree that this behavior can be very age-appropriate and normal. I aa the nursery coordinator and had a couple children who showed very aggressive behavior and hurt a couple other children. So I've been there.

 

I think that parents need to realize that the church nursery is not a daycare. At least in our case, it is staffed with other parents and older ladies who like children. There are disciplinary guidelines but no formal training. In our situation there was no improvement with timeouts or even extra dedicated manpower. So we had no option but to bring the child to one of the parents when these incidents occurred. As a parent I don't understand the willingness on the part of some parents to put other children in danger. Children who have a history of his behavior - even though its normal - shouldn't be left in the nursery without a parent. That's myopinion.

 

In my situation - after the first incident where one child picked-up one of those popcorn push-toys and slammed it on (my) child's head...n I received an apology email from the mother stating that they had had similar problems with this child in daycare and "boys will be boys". Normal doesn't mean acceptable and parents should be more responsible in these situations.

[garddwr]

I feel like I'm missing something. Why are posters recommending early intervention for this family?

 

I agree that talking to the parents is probably the best solution. I don't know about your church, but at most of the churches I've attended, it's tough to find parents to teach Sunday School classes. If either parent needed to stop teaching their class, it would be a scramble to fill that spot. It would make the whole thing more complicated, although that's certainly not the fault of anyone in the nursery. I hope everyone can find a good solution.

 

I wouldn't say anything about early intervention unless I were much closer to the family, but I do think it can be an excellent resource for children who struggle with a wide range of issues, including social interactions--which both of these children do. My sister has used early intervention resources for two of her children, primarily to address problems in appropriate social responses and interactions with both adults and other children. She feels it has made a huge difference for her family. There is not in my mind any stigma attached to looking for outside experts to help children develop appropriate behaviors. Whether or not to seek outside intervention for your family is of course the domain of the parents, but if I were discussing such problems with a friend I would mention the possibility of getting an evaluation. I wouldn't be at all surprised if one or both of these children qualified for services. They do come across as "outside the norm" for children their age to me, though I struggle a little to put my finger on exactly why--maybe partly that they really don't seem to understand the structure of the class or how to interact with either the adults or the children? FWIW, Big Sister sometimes reminds me of my own 4 year old, and I have more than once considered seeking early intervention services for her! I have instead chosen to address whatever issues come up through my own intuition, research, and efforts--but I think seeking expert help is an entirely reasonable suggestion.

 

I think talking to the parents is part of the equation here, but they are not currently in a position to resolve the issues on their own--they can't be physically present in nursery if they are teaching, nor can they keep a toddler (who is misbehaving) with them in class. And whatever changes in diet or behavioral interventions they might make at home would probably show up as slow and incremental improvements, whereas we need to address the issue of children being aggressive right now. Figuring something out among the staff to make it possible for another adult to keep an eye on these kids is probably going to be the best immediate solution.

[garddwr]

I just wanted to thank you for being so gracious to this family. You obviously are trying to be kind to them and their children and that is so nice. Having had "that kid" I appreciate you trying to give them some grace and not assume that they are terrible parents. All too often we leap to the worst without trying other options and I think you are being wonderful by not doing that.

 

 

 

(typing on my iPad, sorry for any errors!!)

 

Thank you for the kind words, Kristen. It helps a lot to have other people just to act as a sounding board for me--I don't like being responsible for trying to resolve challenges involving other people's children, definitely doesn't come naturally to me. I struggle too much in working with my own children's behavioral glitches to assume some other parent should have complete control over theirs! It occurred to me this morning that if this couple continues to teach the class they are teaching, they will have my 4 year old in their class next year--and while she is not usually physically aggressive to the children around her, she is strong-willed, non-compliant, and sometimes painfully sensitive all at once. I've always been very grateful for the patience and understanding of her class teachers.

[Lily of the Valley]

I don't think this family needs early intervention and I agree that this behavior can be very age-appropriate and normal.

 

:iagree:My daughter went through a biting stage for about 6-8 months when she was 2. She didn't usually bite because she was mad, or fighting with another child. I think she just enjoyed biting for some strange reason! I literally had to watch her every second she was around other kids during that time period to stop her when she decided to chomp another child. If I turned my back for a moment, she'd often manage to bite someone anyway. It wasn't poor parenting on my part. I didn't let her get away with it, I didn't make excuses for her, and I did everything I could to try to teach her that biting wasn't acceptable. But, she was 2, and there is only so much that a child that age can understand. She eventually outgrew the behavior, and that made my life a lot easier.

 

I really feel for the little girl who is afraid to go to nursery, and I'm not suggesting that the children be allowed to continue to behave in ways that hurt other children. I definitely think that it should be up to the children's parents to deal with this behavior (and be inconvenienced by it!) until it improves. However, I don't think it's helpful to assume that the parents have poor parenting skills, and need early intervention. Sometimes, no matter how much you try to teach them otherwise, children are just going to do undesirable things.

 

I had someone tell me that her mother's dog used to bite, so her mom bit the dog and it stopped biting people. She suggested that would be a good way to teach my daughter that biting was wrong. Needless to say, I did not take her advice, and it wasn't helpful. I continued to watch my daughter, intervene when necessary, and eventually she outgrew the behavior. She hasn't bitten anyone in years now, and I'm fairly certain I don't have to worry about it anymore! LOL!

 

I wanted to add, too, that it was really embarrassing for me and dh to be the parents of "the biter"! Dd had two children in particular that she seemed to enjoy biting more than anyone else. The parent of one of the kids made our lives a living h*ll, while the other parent was very understanding of what we were going through with dd.

Edited July 2, 2012 by chrisjo

[garddwr]

:iagree:My daughter went through a biting stage for about 6-8 months when she was 2. She didn't usually bite because she was mad, or fighting with another child. I think she just enjoyed biting for some strange reason! I literally had to watch her every second she was around other kids during that time period to stop her when she decided to chomp another child. If I turned my back for a moment, she'd often manage to bite someone anyway. It wasn't poor parenting on my part. I didn't let her get away with it, I didn't make excuses for her, and I did everything I could to try to teach her that biting wasn't acceptable. But, she was 2, and there is only so much that a child that age can understand. She eventually outgrew the behavior, and that made my life a lot easier.

 

I really feel for the little girl who is afraid to go to nursery, and I'm not suggesting that the children be allowed to continue to behave in ways that hurt other children. I definitely think that it should be up to the children's parents to deal with this behavior (and be inconvenienced by it!) until it improves. However, I don't think it's helpful to assume that the parents have poor parenting skills, and need early intervention. Sometimes, no matter how much you try to teach them otherwise, children are just going to do undesirable things.

 

I had someone tell me that her mother's dog used to bite, so her mom bit the dog and it stopped biting people. She suggested that would be a good way to teach my daughter that biting was wrong. Needless to say, I did not take her advice, and it wasn't helpful. I continued to watch my daughter, intervene when necessary, and eventually she outgrew the behavior. She hasn't bitten anyone in years now, and I'm fairly certain I don't have to worry about it anymore! LOL!

 

Suggesting early intervention in no way implies poor parenting skills. My sister is one of the best parents I know and she has two children enrolled in early intervention programs to help them work on appropriate social and emotional control issues. When her 2.5 year old was evaluated she demonstrated intellectual abilities at the level of a 5 year old and social abilities at the level of an 18 month old. My sister has been delighted with the progress her daughter has made through the early intervention program. She does often tell me of parenting ideas she has picked up from watching specific things the early intervention people do to help her children, but seeking out early intervention services for a child who can benefit them is in no way a mark of incompetent parenting.

 

You last paragraph made me smile--when my oldest went through a phase where she was biting me frequently a sweet grandma at church suggested I bite her back. I decided to try--I bit her once and she never bit me again. I didn't even have to bite hard. Not saying it would work with every child, but it sure did in her case!

Edited July 2, 2012 by thegardener
make my meaning more clear

[8circles]

Gosh, I so disagree. I have yet to see any parents make mountains out of molehills in these situations. From my own experience as a child and now between as a parent I do see the damage from parents who think normal means it can't really hurt.

 

I disagree. Most children survive such "assaults" just fine. Its their parents who make mountains of molehills.

 

Daycare people have training but let's face it. This is common sense stuff. Watch the kids. Watch the pusher, the biter, the hitter more. Don't chat and turn your back. comfort the injured kid and ignore the perpetrator.

 

No babies are killing babies in a church nursery. Everyone involved needs to get over themselves and move on. Its not a crisis if your kid gets hit with a xylophone in the nursery. Life may hand you much worse so you better get used to it.

 

Why do you feel the need to be snarky with me?

[Night Elf]

No babies are killing babies in a church nursery. Everyone involved needs to get over themselves and move on. Its not a crisis if your kid gets hit with a xylophone in the nursery. Life may hand you much worse so you better get used to it.

 

:001_huh: It may not be a "crisis" but if the child has behaved that way in the past then it wouldn't be a surprise the child behaved that way in the future. You may be okay with other children hitting your children, but I don't think it's fair to say all parents should be okay with it. My parenting philosophy is as important to me as your is to you. If I knew you and your problem child in any circumstance, I would avoid you in order to prevent any further problems. That may not seem fair but knowing that someone will likely harm my child, and me putting my child in harm's way, seems like neglectful parenting on my part. I care about my children more than that. And, fwiw, another child can absolutely harm another one. Being hit in the head with a xylophone could be a terrible injury. Good grief!

[Meriwether]

:001_huh: It may not be a "crisis" but if the child has behaved that way in the past then it wouldn't be a surprise the child behaved that way in the future. You may be okay with other children hitting your children, but I don't think it's fair to say all parents should be okay with it. My parenting philosophy is as important to me as your is to you. If I knew you and your problem child in any circumstance, I would avoid you in order to prevent any further problems. That may not seem fair but knowing that someone will likely harm my child, and me putting my child in harm's way, seems like neglectful parenting on my part. I care about my children more than that. And, fwiw, another child can absolutely harm another one. Being hit in the head with a xylophone could be a terrible injury. Good grief!

:iagree:

[QueenCat]

:001_huh: It may not be a "crisis" but if the child has behaved that way in the past then it wouldn't be a surprise the child behaved that way in the future. You may be okay with other children hitting your children, but I don't think it's fair to say all parents should be okay with it. My parenting philosophy is as important to me as your is to you. If I knew you and your problem child in any circumstance, I would avoid you in order to prevent any further problems. That may not seem fair but knowing that someone will likely harm my child, and me putting my child in harm's way, seems like neglectful parenting on my part. I care about my children more than that. And, fwiw, another child can absolutely harm another one. Being hit in the head with a xylophone could be a terrible injury. Good grief!

 

:iagree:Well said.

[TravelingChris]

Maybe you think that it is all minor stuff, and some preschool stuff is minor, but not all in the least bit. Repeated behavior like this wouldn't be tolerated by most kids in a playground setting, why allow it in a restrictive environment.

 

I never had a kid this bad but I generally worked with elementary aged kids. What I did then get helpers and I myself worked with the 'problem" child or children. With that group, I had a non medicated ADHDer who was resentful of his being held back (he had no medication for years and got held back and then was given medication only on weekdays) and a totally quiet autistic spectrum boy (not my diagnosis). I ended up doing more one on two with those or one on one with the ADHDer (the other kid came more rarely) because I was more experienced with handling such children than the other helpers.

[8circles]

:001_huh: It may not be a "crisis" but if the child has behaved that way in the past then it wouldn't be a surprise the child behaved that way in the future. You may be okay with other children hitting your children, but I don't think it's fair to say all parents should be okay with it. My parenting philosophy is as important to me as your is to you. If I knew you and your problem child in any circumstance, I would avoid you in order to prevent any further problems. That may not seem fair but knowing that someone will likely harm my child, and me putting my child in harm's way, seems like neglectful parenting on my part. I care about my children more than that. And, fwiw, another child can absolutely harm another one. Being hit in the head with a xylophone could be a terrible injury. Good grief!

 

Yes, thank you. :iagree:

[MegP]

It is not fair that the other children in the nursery are subjected to a bully. So someone needs to be one on one with the offending child or the parents should not bring him back to the nursery until he is able to control himself and be kind.

[Mrs Mungo]

It is hard to tell at this age if you are dealing with mini-bullies, undisciplined kids or kids who need early intervention (Asperger's, ADHD, all kind of things can cause behaviors that the kids cannot completely control). So...I guess I take a bigger picture view. Church should be a place where kids are safe *and* where kids with issues are accepted *and* a place where parents can catch a break. How can you accommodate all of that?

 

1. I think 18 months to 4 years is a *huge* age gap. I would rather see it sorted into 18 months up to 3 years and then 3 and 4 year olds. That would mean only one of these kids per room. They might do better separate and the adults could watch them better.

 

2. Breaking up the ages would allow for age-appropriate activities for all of the kids, instead of having a playspace free-for-all. Keeping the kids busy and directed is huge when it comes to managing kids with behavior issues. Look up Sunday school plans for othe groups. You need a timeline like: prayer time and requests: 5 minutes, opening songs (songs that get them moving in a directed way: Spring Up O Well, Father Abraham, etc) 10 minutes, Bible story 10 minutes, snack 10 minutes, bathroom break 5 minutes, coloring sheets or craft project 15 minutes, etc.

[Lisbeth]

I disagree. Most children survive such "assaults" just fine. Its their parents who make mountains of molehills.

 

Daycare people have training but let's face it. This is common sense stuff. Watch the kids. Watch the pusher, the biter, the hitter more. Don't chat and turn your back. comfort the injured kid and ignore the perpetrator.

 

No babies are killing babies in a church nursery. Everyone involved needs to get over themselves and move on. Its not a crisis if your kid gets hit with a xylophone in the nursery. Life may hand you much worse so you better get used to it.

 

Wow! Survival is a pretty low bar to set for a Church experience.:tongue_smilie:

[Lisbeth]

:001_huh: It may not be a "crisis" but if the child has behaved that way in the past then it wouldn't be a surprise the child behaved that way in the future. You may be okay with other children hitting your children, but I don't think it's fair to say all parents should be okay with it. My parenting philosophy is as important to me as your is to you. If I knew you and your problem child in any circumstance, I would avoid you in order to prevent any further problems. That may not seem fair but knowing that someone will likely harm my child, and me putting my child in harm's way, seems like neglectful parenting on my part. I care about my children more than that. And, fwiw, another child can absolutely harm another one. Being hit in the head with a xylophone could be a terrible injury. Good grief!

 

This is me too. I will put my child's (or any child victim's )physical well being over an adult's feelings any day. I wouldn't be terribly understanding about a constant biter who wasn't extremely watched/managed around other children.

[Susan in TX]

 

1. I think 18 months to 4 years is a *huge* age gap. I would rather see it sorted into 18 months up to 3 years and then 3 and 4 year olds. That would mean only one of these kids per room. They might do better separate and the adults could watch them better.

 

:iagree:

 

Susan in TX

[Lisbeth]

I think if you corral a bunch of wee tots together with minimal supervision you get what you deserve.

 

Im catholic. We dont much have nursery. We tote our kids into church with us and juggle them.

 

So now getting clobbered in Church nurseries is deserved? Ummmm....wow again! I will strongly disagree.

[Ellie]

One of the parents has to be in the nursery every.single.time the children are in there, his or her job being to watch his/her own children.

 

It is not right that the other children should be abused because the parents of the problem children might be offended if you say anything.

 

ITA that the age range of the room is inappropriate. Of course, you might not have any choice, so you have to work with what you have.

 

Your pastor might not agree with requiring the parents to be with their children. If not, he should be ready to make suggestions that will keep all the children safe.

 

I once had to have a conversation with the parents of a 5yo whose behavior was just bizarre (too long to go into here). I told them, very regretfully, that we just weren't equipped to take care of their son's special needs and that one of them would need to stay with him in class. I don't believe they came back, and that's too bad, but it had to be done.

[mom4him]

I'm mulling this over and not coming up with any good solutions. Hoping for some hive wisdom!

 

Here's the situation: I help run the nursery at church during Sunday School. We average about 8 children under the age of 4, with two adults (no babies, children have to be at least 18 months to attend). We have play time, snack time, singing time...

There are two siblings in the nursery who are causing more than their share of trouble. Big Sister is about 3.5 years old, smart and cute, but doesn't follow directions and often tries to take toys from other children. Little Brother is about 24 months, one of the smallest children in the nursery, and keeps causing problems by hitting/biting/scratching other children. These aren't wild kids, it's not like they're running around the room causing constant havoc--but if a problem arises, one or the other is usually at the heart of it. One little girl (older than Little Brother) was a victim of his aggression about two months ago and has refused to come to the nursery since. Another girl has also repeatedly ended up in tears because of confrontations with him. Today everything seemed calm when suddenly she was running across the room crying--turned out he had scratched her behind the ear (the scratch was bleeding slightly). I don't know if they both wanted the same toy or the same space or what, but he was definitely the aggressor.

I feel like there have been enough problems, especially with Little Brother, that something needs to change--but I'm not sure what I can do. Mom and Dad both teach Sunday School, or I would ask one of them to stay and help supervise their children. The other nursery teacher and I try to keep an eye on these two, but there we can't watch them all the time. I'm thinking of asking the person in charge of Sunday School to find a third person to help out in the nursery, more adult supervision would certainly help.

I did tell Mom about the scratching incident when she came to pick up her children today, and she took Little Brother over to the girl who was hurt and told him to say sorry--he didn't. I suspect the parents could use some better parenting techniques at home--these are obviously not naturally compliant kids, and I just have the feeling that mom and dad don't really have any idea how to teach/manage their behavior. I don't want to make assumptions though--I am very much aware that what looks like bad parenting really can be just a particularly difficult child. I often think as I watch the children walk out the door every Sunday how glad I am that I don't have to deal with them all week, and I don't want to make someone's parenting burden feel heavier by suggesting they aren't doing a good job.

I guess the best idea I have come up with is to try to get a third adult to help out in nursery and have one of us particularly watch these two. At the least might be able to forestall most problems before they escalate, and maybe teach some better behaviors along the way. If anyone has a better idea please do share!

 

I was nursery director in our church for about 5 yrs. I was in there every Sunday pretty much for that 5 yrs. I loved it. We ran anywhere from 8-12 children at a time and our ages were from newborn to 2 yrs old. We always had 3 nursery workers and at times 4.

 

At one time we did have a child that was agressive toward other children. He would bite, kick, hit, take toys etc. I made that I always had the 4th person able to come in and if he came that Sunday I would draw that person in and appoint her/him to be that child's guardian. Stuff still happened once in a while but we did work with the child A LOT about sharing, taking turns, being kind, etc. He was at the 2 yr age and was promoted but while we had him he was a big hand full.

[ktgrok]

Most of these kids quite naturally grow out of these infantile behaviors, bc most of them learn to talk.

 

Putting your kid in harms way? Bc he might get smacked with a toy truck? Oh my.

 

These injuries CAN be serious. I had a tooth KILLED by a boy pushing an empty swing on a swingset at me. Tooth went grey and everything, aside from the pain and bloody mouth.

 

Worse, I boy hit me in the face with a toy train and I had to have stitches. It was RIGHT next to my eye. The doctor said that if it has been a fraction of an inch to the right I would have lost my sight in that eye.

 

So yes, these can be REAL injuries.