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How fast is too fast?


Dory
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I know this might sound like a strange question, but I'm wondering how quickly I should be allowing my 5 year old son to move forward? He asks for schoolwork and eats it up like crazy, and I'm unsure of how far ahead I should let him get.

His emotional maturity is about right for his age, so I don't want him to end up getting grouped with kids that are more mature than him, simply because he is further ahead academically than kids his own age (the school was wanting to put him a grade ahead). He is a very social little guy and knows the names and ages, likes and dislikes of half the kids in the community (many of which I don't even know). He is working through grade 2 math and reading books chapter books like little house on the prairie. He is already in piano lessons and gymnastics as well to try and give him something else to focus on. How do I pace him without boring him? We are considering bringing him home for school next year but if I let him work at his own pace then he would just finish school early and not be ready emotionally for college.

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When homeschooling, you can go wider and deeper on individual subjects. You can also use different curricula at the same time to give different levels of understanding--we use three things for math and will be weaving in two more next year--probably dropping one current curricula first. It's harder in school--"acceleration" in school often means just more busywork or teaching the other students what you already know. It's very boring. (Ask me how I know. :glare:) If he has a special interest in a certain subject you can explore than in serious depth for a while and not worry about getting behind. Also, even if he keeps flying through material, he can always work through more advanced material in high school and you can "graduate" him whenever you choose. He could be taking diff calc or whatever (I'm not a math person :tongue_smilie:) at the local CC while still in high school, for instance.

Edited by LittleIzumi
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When homeschooling, you can go wider and deeper on individual subjects. You can also use different curricula at the same time to give different levels of understanding--we use three things for math and will be weaving in two more next year--probably dropping one current curricula first. It's harder in school--"acceleration" in school often means just more busywork or teaching the other students what you already know. It's very boring. (Ask me how I know. :glare:) If he has a special interest in a certain subject you can explore than in serious depth for a while and not worry about getting behind. Also, even if he keeps flying through material, he can always work through more advanced material in high school and you can "graduate" him whenever you choose. He could be taking diff calc or whatever (I'm not a math person :tongue_smilie:) at the local CC while still in high school, for instance.

 

But if I graduate him early, and he's not mature enough yet emotionally for college, what would he do with himself? I would like to be able to encourage him social abilities too, but within an age group that he can actually relate to.

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But if I graduate him early, and he's not mature enough yet emotionally for college, what would he do with himself? I would like to be able to encourage him social abilities too, but within an age group that he can actually relate to.

 

If he's not mature enough for college, you don't graduate him early. He can take more advanced courses online or at the local CC where you are at home to help him. He can even take a gap year, where he's graduated but volunteering or working somewhere or in an internship before he goes to college.

 

At 5, I would NOT be worrying about his maturity in his late teens. Right now he's doing well, and as a homeschooler you can adjust anything as you need to. There are many people on the high school board you can ask when you get to that point, in over a decade. ;)

 

(ETA: I know I have littles, not a high schooler, but I was one of those kids, and graduated early, and took a gap year, and still went to university a year early, and did quite well.)

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If he's not mature enough for college, you don't graduate him early. He can take more advanced courses online or at the local CC where you are at home to help him. He can even take a gap year, where he's graduated but volunteering or working somewhere or in an internship before he goes to college.

 

At 5, I would NOT be worrying about his maturity in his late teens. Right now he's doing well, and as a homeschooler you can adjust anything as you need to. There are many people on the high school board you can ask when you get to that point, in over a decade. ;)

 

(ETA: I know I have littles, not a high schooler, but I was one of those kids, and graduated early, and took a gap year, and still went to university a year early, and did quite well.)

Thanks, I appreciate the different view point. I was one of those kids too and graduated 2 years early. I wish I had either had a gap year or been slowed down some though as I ended up in a world that I was no where near ready for. Academically I was fine, but academics are only one small part. I was thinking that if he needed to be paced I'd rather start in the early grades than be suddenly wishing I had put the brakes on when we hit high school, but you're right, a gap year is always an option.

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:iagree:He's not going to run out of material. Teach him the process of making a mummy and mummify something, or build a working volcano together, or a robot. Find something he is interested in, turn it into an inquiry project and find out what you learn along the way. You can always go wider and deeper. People spend a lifetime working in very minute fields of study.

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But if I graduate him early, and he's not mature enough yet emotionally for college, what would he do with himself? I would like to be able to encourage him social abilities too, but within an age group that he can actually relate to.
The possibility of early graduation isn't something I'd fret about, especially now with more and more options like MIT OpenCourseWare. There will be so many options for extended and enriched study when he's ready you just might have trouble choosing which way to go. :001_smile: Try to avoid the temptation of thinking school as a linear progression and a single path. I'd focus more about giving him an appropriate level of challenge and meeting him where he is in all subjects.
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There are two main options in increasing the intellectual challenge for a bright kid: going faster (acceleration) or going deeper. Some parents have their children race through an easy curriculum, but I personally think that is not a wise approach. Nobody will care whether someone did algebra at age 9 or waited until (gasp!) 12. What they will care about is the individual's problem-solving ability. That is better fostered by going "deeper" rather than zooming through an easy curriculum

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But if I graduate him early, and he's not mature enough yet emotionally for college, what would he do with himself? I would like to be able to encourage him social abilities too, but within an age group that he can actually relate to.

No need to think about early graduation. there is plenty to learn at home, and you will graduate him when he is ready. Even after completing the material typically taught in high school, there is still enough stuff left ;-)

I would let him learn at exactly the pace at which he wants to progress.

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There are two main options in increasing the intellectual challenge for a bright kid: going faster (acceleration) or going deeper. Some parents have their children race through an easy curriculum, but I personally think that is not a wise approach. Nobody will care whether someone did algebra at age 9 or waited until (gasp!) 12. What they will care about is the individual's problem-solving ability. That is better fostered by going "deeper" rather than zooming through an easy curriculum
I'm not seeing the posts advocating choosing easier elementary materials for accelerated students. Pick a sound and sufficiently rigorous program and work through it. Add in engaging and challenging supplements. Great. But there's little sense dragging the pace for a child capable of doing reasonably challenging work at a higher level. After a fashion, K-6 math is K-6 math, and there's not much more you can add in there. The real fun is in what comes next.
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I'm not seeing the posts advocating choosing easier elementary materials for accelerated students. Pick a sound and sufficiently rigorous program and work through it. Add in engaging and challenging supplements. Great. But there's little sense dragging the pace for a child capable of doing reasonably challenging work at a higher level. After a fashion, K-6 math is K-6 math, and there's not much more you can add in there. The real fun is in what comes next.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Plus...challenging algebra word problems -- and computations -- are more fun for advanced youngsters than anything in cwp/ip. How fun is basic arithmetic? It is BORING. (eta: Boring compared to alg, IMHO.)

Edited by Beth in SW WA
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That was us many many years ago, and we haven't run out yet. ;)

 

DS plowed through early curricula (and yes, it was challenging problem-solving, etc.) and ended up at Algebra ridiculously young. Shakespeare too.... and languages.... and science. History has been fair to middling, but he holds his own there.

 

I have always aimed to keep his work challenging, and to a great extent that meant letting him run with it. Absolutely go deeper when you can, but don't count on it slowing him down. Really, when a kid seriously gets it, all the depth in the world won't actually slow him down. It will keep it interesting though.

 

What has worked out for us is to add in new topics -- the ones that aren't even in the regular scope and sequence. That includes Art of Problem Solving math (discrete math and problem solving) and extra cryptography and computer programming, independent research in science, extra languages, lots and lots and lots of literature. In math, for instance, as soon as we hit Algebra we started alternating "regular" years with "extra" years. It didn't really slow him down, but as I said above... it kept things interesting. So we've done Algebra, Statistics, Computer Programming, Geometry, Discrete Math, Cryptography, Algebra 2, Precalculus.... We could still do another year of Discrete Math, another pass through more advanced Geometry, and whatever else AoPS is offering these days... Graph Theory, Game Theory, I don't even know what else. I've been holding off on Calculus, just because there's still good stuff we can do with Algebra, and because he wants to finish up at a private high school... so I'd like him to have at least one "normal" math class they could teach him before we have to look at independent study.

 

But also... what worries you as a parent of a five year old might not be the same things that worry you as a parent of a teenager. You may find that at some age, he really is ready for college. Or you may find that he's ready to take advantage of opportunities that you don't know about yet, or that don't yet exist.

 

Keep it interesting now, keep it challenging, don't let him coast... and give him opportunities to pursue larger projects that give him skills in managing his own work and in following a question through to its end.

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I'm not seeing the posts advocating choosing easier elementary materials for accelerated students.

 

Oh, I've seen plenty of posts over the years where parents talk about their child zooming through K-6 math using TT or MUS or other easy curriculum. I'm sure had I chosen one of those programs I could have a 9 y.o. in algebra as well. I just personally think doing that would be a disservice to her.

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I was asking myself the same questions not too long ago. Don't worry about it. Let him go as fast as he wants, and don't get worried if he suddenly slows down, stops, or moves backwards a little before jumping way ahead again. All kids learn in spurts, but they're much more pronounced in gifted and asynchronous learners.

 

You don't need to worry about early entrance college, either. If he's mature enough, fine... send him. If not, there are some colleges with early entrance programs designed for very young students, there are online classes where he could "homeschool" his way through college, and there's always the option of going to 13th or 14th grade in high school (you'd just bundle the credits on a transcript or only document the last 4 years).

 

A lot has changed in the past 10 years, and a lot will change in the next 10, too, I imagine!

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Oh, I've seen plenty of posts over the years where parents talk about their child zooming through K-6 math using TT or MUS or other easy curriculum. I'm sure had I chosen one of those programs I could have a 9 y.o. in algebra as well. I just personally think doing that would be a disservice to her.
Yeah, I'm not an advocate of "easy" no matter what level the child is working at. If they don't talk learn to deal with less than perfect scores or having to *work* young, it's a much lesson to learn later on (and an expensive one in college).
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There are two main options in increasing the intellectual challenge for a bright kid: going faster (acceleration) or going deeper. Some parents have their children race through an easy curriculum, but I personally think that is not a wise approach. Nobody will care whether someone did algebra at age 9 or waited until (gasp!) 12. What they will care about is the individual's problem-solving ability. That is better fostered by going "deeper" rather than zooming through an easy curriculum

 

I agree, deeper is always good. I know of too many kids who raced through so their parents could have an ego boost because their child was soooo far ahead. Unfortunately the child really doesn't 'know' much in those cases, just enough to get by.

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That was us many many years ago, and we haven't run out yet. ;)

 

DS plowed through early curricula (and yes, it was challenging problem-solving, etc.) and ended up at Algebra ridiculously young. Shakespeare too.... and languages.... and science. History has been fair to middling, but he holds his own there.

 

I have always aimed to keep his work challenging, and to a great extent that meant letting him run with it. Absolutely go deeper when you can, but don't count on it slowing him down. Really, when a kid seriously gets it, all the depth in the world won't actually slow him down. It will keep it interesting though.

 

What has worked out for us is to add in new topics -- the ones that aren't even in the regular scope and sequence. That includes Art of Problem Solving math (discrete math and problem solving) and extra cryptography and computer programming, independent research in science, extra languages, lots and lots and lots of literature. In math, for instance, as soon as we hit Algebra we started alternating "regular" years with "extra" years. It didn't really slow him down, but as I said above... it kept things interesting. So we've done Algebra, Statistics, Computer Programming, Geometry, Discrete Math, Cryptography, Algebra 2, Precalculus.... We could still do another year of Discrete Math, another pass through more advanced Geometry, and whatever else AoPS is offering these days... Graph Theory, Game Theory, I don't even know what else. I've been holding off on Calculus, just because there's still good stuff we can do with Algebra, and because he wants to finish up at a private high school... so I'd like him to have at least one "normal" math class they could teach him before we have to look at independent study.

 

But also... what worries you as a parent of a five year old might not be the same things that worry you as a parent of a teenager. You may find that at some age, he really is ready for college. Or you may find that he's ready to take advantage of opportunities that you don't know about yet, or that don't yet exist.

 

Keep it interesting now, keep it challenging, don't let him coast... and give him opportunities to pursue larger projects that give him skills in managing his own work and in following a question through to its end.

 

Thank You!!! I think I was just looking for someone to run through what they did with their child. It all feels so opposite of his older brother who is so emotionally mature for his age, but so behind academically. I appreciate the thoughts and ideas, and you're right, my worries in a few years will be much different than now, I want to stay aware though that my approaches to life now will affect him in the future.

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:iagree: I agree with most of the OPs. In the early years, elementary material went by so quickly. I worried that dd was zooming through 2.5 to 3 "academic years" per actual school year. She did eventually hit a point where we were through all the "boring" basics and could go deeper into different topics, take two languages instead of one (or 3 once we add Latin next year), follow her interest in music and musicians, follow all those rabbit trails in history and science, and do plenty of crafts and projects to keep her happy.

 

One example of a way we have gone deeper is by initially doing Saxon 87 as a pre-algebra program because she just wasn't ready to think in an AoPS Pre-Alg way yet but after Saxon, instead of moving on into Algebra, we are looking at Pre-Alg in that different way by giving AoPS another chance and she is comfortable with it now.

 

I can't say she has slowed her down all that much, she still covers a lot of material but either she is now moving at a pace that is more comfortable to me or I have gotten used to her natural pace. So, instead of rushing through the scope and sequence she would be doing in ps, she is able to learn a wider variety of subjects and learn to think about the same subject in a variety of ways.

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Oh, I've seen plenty of posts over the years where parents talk about their child zooming through K-6 math using TT or MUS or other easy curriculum. I'm sure had I chosen one of those programs I could have a 9 y.o. in algebra as well. I just personally think doing that would be a disservice to her.

 

What's wrong with a 9-year-old doing algebra? If a child is ready, she is ready. Without a solid foundation in the basics, and a love for problem solving, algebra would be a disaster for a youngster who starts too early. Only parents can gauge the readiness. Dd never realized how amazing math is until she started algebra. It really is the promised land for some kids.

 

Dd9 used TT 3-alg 1 along w/ SM 1-5 cwp/ip, HoE, MM blue supplements and other 'Asian/conceptual' programs over the last couple years. I chose resources to target certain areas. TT was ideal for her for so many reasons. She could be in control. She could go at her own pace. She only needed to see something one time to learn it so she skipped tons of practice problems. TT is perfect for a certain type of learner.

 

The highlight of last year (while dd plowed through 'basic' math) was doing complex word problems with her online tutor. It took a fair amount of time, energy and $$, but it was sssooooo worth it for dd to have someone passionate, enthusiastic and professional fan the algebra flame in dd. I blame HoE for lighting the fire. :) Rachna and other resources (especially our math-rich home) have kept it alive and strong. I can't imagine the flame going out any time soon. Now it is really getting fun for her.

 

I don't understand the angst regarding youngers doing algebra. As I said, if the foundation was weak, a student would not -- nor could not -- do quadratics at 9. Each kid is so different.

 

I only chime in to say that comments like "TT and MUS are easy" are not necessarily helpful unless you know the circumstances surrounding why parents choose those resources for their kiddos.

 

I had someone tell me on this subforum a year ago that I was doing it wrong -- that I would short-change dd if we continued down the path we were on w/ TT. One glimpse into our world and anyone can see that my plan has worked beautifully. I had the pulse on what was needed and I wasn't swayed by the 'experts' here.

 

As for MUS (which you claim is 'easy')...dd9 is LOVING it for algebra 1. I took this pic of her yesterday doing math -- long after her math hour was over. She is just about to delve into quadratics because MUS makes it fun. Is that so terrible? :confused::bigear:

 

ETA: I found my dds doing MUS alg 1 lesson 24 last night -- at 10 PM for fun. Together. In their jammies. Not sure how that can be a problem. :)

post-530-13535086756933_thumb.jpg

post-530-13535086756933_thumb.jpg

Edited by Beth in SW WA
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What's wrong with a 9-year-old doing algebra? If a child is ready, she is ready. Without a solid foundation in the basics, and a love for problem solving, algebra would be a disaster for a youngster who starts too early. Only parents can gauge the readiness. Dd never realized how amazing math is until she started algebra. It really is the promised land for some kids.

 

Dd9 used TT 3-alg 1 along w/ SM 1-5 cwp/ip, HoE, MM blue supplements and other 'Asian/conceptual' programs over the last couple years. I chose resources to target certain areas. TT was ideal for her for so many reasons. She could be in control. She could go at her own pace. She only needed to see something one time to learn it so she skipped tons of practice problems. TT is perfect for a certain type of learner.

 

The highlight of last year (while dd plowed through 'basic' math) was doing complex word problems with her online tutor. It took a fair amount of time, energy and $$, but it was sssooooo worth it for dd to have someone passionate, enthusiastic and professional fan the algebra flame in dd. I blame HoE for lighting the fire. :) Rachna and other resources (especially our math-rich home) have kept it alive and strong. I can't imagine the flame going out any time soon. Now it is really getting fun for her.

 

I don't understand the angst regarding youngers doing algebra. As I said, if the foundation was weak, a student would not -- nor could not -- do quadratics at 9. Each kid is so different.

 

I only chime in to say that comments like "TT and MUS are easy" are not necessarily helpful unless you know the circumstances surrounding why parents choose those resources for their kiddos.

 

I had someone tell me on this subforum a year ago that I was doing it wrong -- that I would short-change dd if we continued down the path we were on w/ TT. One glimpse into our world and anyone can see that my plan has worked beautifully. I had the pulse on what was needed and I wasn't swayed by the 'experts' here.

 

As for MUS (which you claim is 'easy')...dd9 is LOVING it for algebra 1. I took this pic of her yesterday doing math -- long after her math hour was over. She is just about to delve into quadratics because MUS makes it fun. Is that so terrible? :confused::bigear:

 

ETA: I found my dds doing MUS alg 1 lesson 24 last night -- at 10 PM for fun. Together. In their jammies. Not sure how that can be a problem. :)

 

Usually the problem with younger children heading into algebra too early is that is requires abstract thinking skills that their brains are not developed enough to properly handle. Pr-Algebra perhaps, but Algebra not usually. It's not an intelligence thing, but a normal development thing. Of course there will be the odd child that will be developed early enough that they are ready for it before the other kids are.

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Usually the problem with younger children heading into algebra too early is that is requires abstract thinking skills that their brains are not developed enough to properly handle. Pr-Algebra perhaps, but Algebra not usually. It's not an intelligence thing, but a normal development thing. Of course there will be the odd child that will be developed early enough that they are ready for it before the other kids are.

 

Ahhh, but you are new to the WTM accelerated board. :D Not only did my son start algebra at a young 9 years old, he used AoPS Intro Algebra and taught himself. He would not let me help him because he considered it cheating.

 

Ruth in NZ

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Usually the problem with younger children heading into algebra too early is that is requires abstract thinking skills that their brains are not developed enough to properly handle. Pr-Algebra perhaps, but Algebra not usually. It's not an intelligence thing, but a normal development thing. Of course there will be the odd child that will be developed early enough that they are ready for it before the other kids are.

 

:iagree:

I have 2 older kids who weren't interested in alg until grade 7. (ETA: Ds would have loved more math earlier. But, no. I chose more Latin for him. Ding-dong me. He would have been better off starting alg earlier. He was ready.)

 

My comments above address the myth that it will be a disservice to start alg too quickly after 'speeding' through the basics. For some students, they don't need 5 years of basic math.

Edited by Beth in SW WA
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Usually the problem with younger children heading into algebra too early is that is requires abstract thinking skills that their brains are not developed enough to properly handle. Pr-Algebra perhaps, but Algebra not usually. It's not an intelligence thing, but a normal development thing. Of course there will be the odd child that will be developed early enough that they are ready for it before the other kids are.
But that's what we often see on the Accelerated Board. ;) And I've noticed that the "odd" child isn't so "odd" in the general homeschooling population. FWIW, my 10yo is almost finished Algebra I. She was frustrated by the lack of forward momentum in Singapore (challenge for the sake of challenge sometimes means little when there's nothing really *new* to excite a child). After zooming through LOF: Fractions and Decimals & Percents during a break from Singapore 4A, it was obvious she wasn't going back. I let her zoom through K-6 math (it's not rocket science... if a child has facts down, some geometry under their belt, and can work through tricky ratio problems, there's really no conceptual gap left that can't be quickly stopped) and then spent about a year and a half working through engaging and challenging diversions like The Cryptoclub. I hadn't wanted her to move on to Algebra mostly because of the time involved (which with LOF has proven to be a non-issue). Now that she has what she needs to move on in science, she can swing through AofPS Number Theory and Probability and Counting before returning to Algebra. Mmm... number theory -- now that's fun stuff. :D
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:My comments above address the myth that it will be a disservice to start alg too quickly after 'speeding' through the basics. For some students, they don't need 5 years of basic math.
:iagree:

We have to do what's best for our kids, do what we have to do to preserve the spark. For some kids this means speeding through the basics, because challenge can come from breadth as well as depth. My big picture girl needed just that, and I was late(ish) to recognize it.

 

If the child speeds through and hits a wall (and there's no shame there), it can be dealt with then. And dealing with it is a wonderful life lesson.

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:iagree:

We have to do what's best for our kids, do what we have to do to preserve the spark. For some kids this means speeding through the basics, because challenge can come from breadth as well as depth. My big picture girl needed just that, and I was late(ish) to recognize it.

 

If the child speeds through and hits a wall (and there's no shame there), it can be dealt with then. And dealing with it is a wonderful life lesson.

 

 

This is why I love this forum. I went from terrified about "messing up" my son's education by going at his pace to recognizing I have an opportunity to let him succeed OR fail, and have plenty of time to "fix" it.

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What's wrong with a 9-year-old doing algebra? If a child is ready, she is ready. Without a solid foundation in the basics, and a love for problem solving, algebra would be a disaster for a youngster who starts too early. Only parents can gauge the readiness. Dd never realized how amazing math is until she started algebra. It really is the promised land for some kids.

 

 

:iagree::iagree: Dd, who is very asynchronous in math so I have pulled back to give her a stronger foundation, has been asking for algebra again, when can she do algebra, she loves algebra, etc. It's really just prealgebra, but we haven't played with that for months and she remembered it and wanted more. Today when we were doing her normal MEP we solved the equation algebraically instead of through remembering facts--somehow figuring out adding 2 to cancel the -2 and adding 5 to cancel the -5 so the answer is by itself (7!) is easier for her than looking at it and remembering that 2 and 5 are 7. We are still working on her foundation most days but we'll be adding HOE to our game days to remind her WHY she has to slog through these silly boring basics :lol: and to motivate her to finish them. (If this makes no sense, I'm sorry--it's really really late for me to be up. The post makes sense right now but it might not when I wake up in the morning....)

 

ETA: Now that it's the morning, I'm basically trying to say algebra is the carrot for finishing/mastering that boring arithmetic.

Edited by LittleIzumi
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:iagree:

We have to do what's best for our kids, do what we have to do to preserve the spark. For some kids this means speeding through the basics, because challenge can come from breadth as well as depth. My big picture girl needed just that, and I was late(ish) to recognize it.

 

If the child speeds through and hits a wall (and there's no shame there), it can be dealt with then. And dealing with it is a wonderful life lesson.

 

:iagree:This exactly!

 

I am trying to understand the fixation with "challenging" curriculum and the supposed problem with kids doing algebra early. I've lived in a few countries and it's only in the US that I've encountered this fixed mindset about "waiting until a child has abstract thinking abilities to do algebra" or waiting until they've finished hard arithmetic problems in order to study math for the sake of math. One can make learning challenging without curriculum. I don't want to use AoPS or Singapore just to be able to say I used challenging curriculum. I want to use what makes sense to my child's needs at that particular time. I want him to be able to develop the stamina to really chew on difficult problems but also recognize that when he's ready for more, I should trust his need and feed his hunger.

 

What kind of message am I giving my child who wants more if I deny him that? That he's not good enough to do something higher just because he's younger or hasn't finished grade level work? :001_smile: I really cannot bring myself to homeschool my child with grade level work. He deserves more.

 

I often wonder what I'm missing when I read about delaying kids for the sake of delaying or putting algebra off to repeat another year of passion-killing, mundane busywork.

Edited by quark
forgot a few commas
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I don't want to use AoPS or Singapore just to be able to say I used challenging curriculum. I want to use what makes sense to my child's needs at that particular time. I want him to be able to develop the stamina to really chew on difficult problems but also recognize that when he's ready for more, I should trust his need and feed his hunger.

 

What kind of message am I giving my child who wants more if I deny him that? That he's not good enough to do something higher just because he's younger or hasn't finished grade level work? :001_smile: I really cannot bring myself to homeschool my child with grade level work. He deserves more.

 

I often wonder what I'm missing when I read about delaying kids for the sake of delaying or putting algebra off to repeat another year of passion-killing, mundane busywork.

 

I think you misunderstand why someone would chose a challenging curriculum like AoPS. For my dd, it isn't "passion-killing, mundane busywork." The way AoPS teaches one to think about numbers and their relationships gives them the stamina to "really chew on difficult problems" and the ability to look at difficult problems in a number of different ways to obtain a solution.

 

My dd has only worked through the first 2 chapters of AoPS Pre-Alg and already there have been so many "a-ha" moments and "wow, I didn't think of that before"-s that I am so glad we are doing it. She loves the way the problems are like puzzles to be solved. It is "more" but in a deeper rather than linear sense of the word. I worried about it being review since she'd done a Pre-Alg course already but since the way it teaches the concepts is so different, there is no sense of it being review.

 

Could she be doing Saxon or Jacob's Algebra? Sure, she could. She's a whole-to parts learner and could easily master the concepts and do the problems according to the formula they provide but I want her to understand the "why" behind the concept and understand how to manipulate the numbers and variables in a number of different ways...not just to follow the formula.

 

I learned Algebra through Calculus in ps in this "follow the formula" way and yes, I was good at math in this way. I solved the problems and got my A's and took the required Calc course in college and never looked at math again. People have learned math this way for a long time and some go on to keep doing math while others have no interest in higher and higher levels.

 

There isn't any one way that is right for every child so we make the best choices we can for our own children. There's really no reason to turn it into another one of the "mommy wars." I think each of us can share our choices and reasons for those choices without being judgmental toward other people's choices.

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My daughter bought The Algebra Survival Guide on our last trip, and in the first couple of pages, one of the first questions is "When should I learn Algebra", and it includes the information that for most kids, the brain maturity isn't there until about 9th grade. DD7 read it, grinned, and looked at me and said "I guess that means I'm a 9th grader, right???"

 

I've had a lot of fears about math acceleration, especially since, for my DD, it wasn't linear. It was working through Singapore, with extra enrichment (Logic, problem solving, Intensive Practice, Hands on Equations, LoF, Challenge math), at what, to me, seemed like a reasonable pace-about 3-4 SM books a year. Except that, at about SM 4, she started to get very, very frustrated with there being nothing "new"-that everything SM was doing, she'd already done before and that she knew how to do it. She set her sights on Algebra-and the first signs I got was when a Saxon math placement test appeared on my computer desk, in DD7s handwriting-and showed that she was able to start in Algebra I. It was followed by about 3 more. She showed me that she had those facts memorized. She pulled the next grade level of SM off the shelf and went through the entire book, marking what she already knew. She was a kid on a mission.

 

I admit I kind of assumed she was making some of it up, or that she was using the answer keys for help, so I got the DOMA test-and sat in the room as she correctly solved questions that I KNOW had not yet been covered formally in SM. For example, the Area of a triangle hadn't yet been taught-but she was able to look at the answers and figure out the correct one. She then was able to find a trapezoid and parallelogram's area similarly. She maxed the test.

 

I finally caved to the extent that I bought Mathletics for her online, which goes through 12th grade, and told her that if she worked through the Year 6-8 lessons on her own, I'd get the Algebra readiness test for her and plan to start Algebra in the fall. She's about 3/4 of the way through 7th grade, less than a month after I gave her the challenge.

 

I'm still scared. Heck, I'm terrified. Not so much about math-since I'm the kid who ended up re-learning arithmetic conceptually, because I'd somehow managed to miss it in elementary school, when I was in high school and college, and only truly started enjoying math in college and grad school (and ended up doing my research on the mathematics of Baroque keyboard music) and specializing in mathematics remediation, I KNOW it's possible to fill gaps. And I have no trouble sending her to college with a class transcript that includes number theory, discrete and finite math, topology, combinatorics, mathematical logic, and so on in addition to Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry and Calculus.

 

But after seeing just how far she's able to go and how determined she can be when she decides something is boring, am I going to be able to fill her brain and keep her busy at home, or is she going to decide what we can do here is boring, too and need to move on? The idea of a 7 yr old using middle school, or even high school material is scary. But the idea of that same 7 yr old, at age 10-11-12 or so deciding that she's DONE with high school and is ready to move to college, NOW is terrifying.

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I don't want to use AoPS or Singapore just to be able to say I used challenging curriculum.
AofPS (essentially middle school and up, as Beast Academy isn't anywhere near completion) and Singapore Primary Maths are completely different animals in terms of methodology and target audience. I don't think a parent could use AofPS to hold their child back (especially if using the online courses; those go fast)... it's a brilliant program that many math gifted children will flourish under.

 

There is a point at which even math gifted children who benefit from "rushing" through elementary materials should slow down (relatively speaking) and broaden their scope rather than proceed apace through the standard math sequence. Richard Rusczyk sums it up well here:

 

The Calculus Trap

Edited by nmoira
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There are two main options in increasing the intellectual challenge for a bright kid: going faster (acceleration) or going deeper. Some parents have their children race through an easy curriculum, but I personally think that is not a wise approach. Nobody will care whether someone did algebra at age 9 or waited until (gasp!) 12. What they will care about is the individual's problem-solving ability. That is better fostered by going "deeper" rather than zooming through an easy curriculum

 

:iagree: Ultimately, this is the goal, and I agree with CW's preferred route.

 

Just thinking out loud, the question is not all or nothing - nearly every student being discussed here is already at least a little accelerated in math (I don't recall seeing many discussions of students working right at grade level). I think that one can accelerate and add depth, in varying amounts suitable to the student in the moment. However, as a practical matter, it seems to me that depth may be easier to add in late elementary than in early elementary. This may be true simply due to the wider range of math under the student's belt. As for age and perfectionism vs. problem-chewing, that's a much more delicate question, potentially with some chicken vs. egg components; how and when to develop patience.

 

The trickier question is when and how to match up acceleration and depth. Do you (the general "you") add depth at an earlier math level, or at your student's current level of acceleration? Does your course change at different points in time?

 

Yeah, I'm not an advocate of "easy" no matter what level the child is working at. If they don't talk learn to deal with less than perfect scores or having to *work* young, it's a much lesson to learn later on (and an expensive one in college).

 

I agree - this is a very significant issue in our house. With one of my kids, it was obvious enough that I received a call from his teacher - in preschool (! now that was an odd conversation). I also have plenty of personal experience with this, and it significantly impacted my own education in a negative way, starting from around 8th grade (elementary school was too easy, and middle school was when I tuned out. It's a miracle that I did as well as I did in high school math, because I floated through and don't remember a thing). I don't know whether acceleration or depth would have been the correct answer to how I should have been challenged in elementary school, but I suspect the answer would be both.

 

What's wrong with a 9-year-old doing algebra?

 

IMO, nothing.

 

I only chime in to say that comments like "TT and MUS are easy" are not necessarily helpful unless you know the circumstances surrounding why parents choose those resources for their kiddos.

...

As for MUS (which you claim is 'easy')...dd9 is LOVING it for algebra 1. I took this pic of her yesterday doing math -- long after her math hour was over. She is just about to delve into quadratics because MUS makes it fun. Is that so terrible?

 

Generally speaking (i.e. not about you), two concerns would be (1) not following that up with a more substantial "algebra 1" at some point down the road and (2) not adding some form of depth in other ways. (However, you own and actually use more alternative math resources than just about anyone on this board ;), so carry on and continue to light the fire for your kids as you know best.)

 

Usually the problem with younger children heading into algebra too early is that is requires abstract thinking skills that their brains are not developed enough to properly handle.

 

I disagree. Each student's situation is different, particularly with accelerated students, but my understanding is that Piaget's theory, insofar as when to study algebra, is a myth.

 

I want to use what makes sense to my child's needs at that particular time. I want him to be able to develop the stamina to really chew on difficult problems but also recognize that when he's ready for more, I should trust his need and feed his hunger.

 

:iagree: (though I have a hard time knowing when to do which)

 

For my dd, it isn't "passion-killing, mundane busywork." The way AoPS teaches one to think about numbers and their relationships gives them the stamina to "really chew on difficult problems" and the ability to look at difficult problems in a number of different ways to obtain a solution.

 

Yes, this is one of the biggest reasons to choose AoPS.

 

There are other reasons too - for my ds9, it's a learning-style thing. He has a big-picture, dyslexic processing, right-brained VSL style, though he's not actually dyslexic. I show him the problems in the prealgebra book, and he lights up (especially if it's bedtime :glare: - then he wants to try them). I'm worried that the combination of acceleration and depth will be too much too soon, but he's bored with MM. We commence with the prealgebra book on Tuesday. Keeping my fingers crossed. If we run into trouble (the writing alone gives me pause), I'm not sure what to do (guess he needs to learn LaTeX?).

 

My dd has only worked through the first 2 chapters of AoPS Pre-Alg and already there have been so many "a-ha" moments and "wow, I didn't think of that before"-s that I am so glad we are doing it.

Many of the a-has were my own :001_huh:. If I had had the opportunity to use AoPS, my entire educational path might have been different (long story).

Edited by wapiti
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Many of the a-has were my own :001_huh:. If I had had the opportunity to use AoPS, my entire educational path might have been different (long story).
No kidding. I've come to tears more than once when pre-reading new materials for the kids. It's one thing just saying "fourteen years of my academic life were wasted" (we had a Gr. 13 when I went through high school; hence the fourteen) and another having the evidence in one's hands.
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The reason I said the 'odd' child was ready early is because Accelerated Learners are not the greater percentage of children. On average the brain develops at a certain rate but the reason an accelerated learner is accelerated is because their brains have developed at a different rate than the norm and are often ready for things before the norm would. I have seen scenarios though where the parent is 'sure' their child is amazingly beyond their age group and soooo ready for things and the kid ends up in material that they are no where near ready for and is floundering to meet expectations that have been placed on him. I have also seen the child that is honestly more than ready for things much before their parents have expected her to be and excel despite the fact that the world around her deems her too young to be doing what she's doing. Putting averages on things is not supposed to be a limiting thing. It's like putting a line down the middle of a six lane highway. The line isn't there to tell everyone that they have to stay as close to it as possible (although some people tend to thing that's what it's for), the line is there simply to tell us where the middle is. A child could be on either side in any of the lanes. It all depends on the child as each one is a unique individual.

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Why do I use a challenging curriculum only a bit ahead rather than an easy curriculum several years ahead? Because I don't want my kids to wind up like my brother. He coasted through high school and even college only to nearly flunk out of law school his first year because he had reached a point where he had to actually work. When is it better to have a student learn to work hard- elementary school or graduate school?

 

Now if a parent is taking an easy curriculum and significantly beefing it up with outside resources, that's fine. It just seems like a lot more work to me than simply choosing a challenging curriculum to begin with.

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Why do I use a challenging curriculum only a bit ahead rather than an easy curriculum several years ahead? Because I don't want my kids to wind up like my brother. He coasted through high school and even college only to nearly flunk out of law school his first year because he had reached a point where he had to actually work. When is it better to have a student learn to work hard- elementary school or graduate school?

 

Now if a parent is taking an easy curriculum and significantly beefing it up with outside resources, that's fine. It just seems like a lot more work to me than simply choosing a challenging curriculum to begin with.

 

My son finished Singapore 1-6 by the time he was 9yo. Accelerating a challenging program was the only way I could keep him in problems that were hard enough. However, while he was ready conceptually for algebra at the end of Singapore 6, he was not emotionally or physically ready, as he had a huge attitude problem when it came to writing out his work. So we treaded water for a year with Derek Owens Prealgebra, which was easy for him, but made him accountable to a teacher other than his mother. For challenge he did math competitions. He will move into Algebra I in a school setting next year as a 10yo 6th grader.

 

I don't exactly know what my rambling point here was supposed to be. Perhaps that some kids not only need a challenging program, they also need to be (radically) accelerated.

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I think you misunderstand why someone would chose a challenging curriculum like AoPS.

 

With respect, no, that wasn't my intention at all. I am not putting down AoPS (we use it at home too) or why other parents choose it or Singapore Math. I am questioning the mentality of delaying algebra for the sake of delaying it because I really don't understand why this happens when a child is obviously craving it. I am questioning a previous poster's attitude about parents using MUS and TT with younger children. I have noticed this poster consistently applying judgement on other parents' decisions with younger children with regards to programs like Kumon or MUS etc and I am surprised by her attitude when all this discussion is on the AL board. I apologize to you and others if it came across as misunderstanding a parent's choice.

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I don't exactly know what my rambling point here was supposed to be. Perhaps that some kids not only need a challenging program, they also need to be (radically) accelerated.

 

Yes. This is probably what I was trying to get at. Kai says it so much more briefly and elegantly than I could.

 

Radical acceleration though seems to be so sorely misunderstood. We recognized our child's ability to learn in huge leaps at about the OP's son's age and we decided to follow his lead. We are now at the point where we are considering some community college classes for him. My point I guess is that radical acceleration is a lonely business. If you believe in it with all your heart, go for it but don't expect others to get it. You need to really be confident in the decision to make such choices.

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Why do I use a challenging curriculum only a bit ahead rather than an easy curriculum several years ahead? Because I don't want my kids to wind up like my brother. He coasted through high school and even college only to nearly flunk out of law school his first year because he had reached a point where he had to actually work. When is it better to have a student learn to work hard- elementary school or graduate school?
I agree that not learning to work and, just as importantly, not learning to regroup after failure is detrimental to a child. WRT math, I'd agree that being allowed to work from K through Calculus using programs that provide no real challenge (and often require no real understanding) is a disservice to a student. However, there's sharp divide between elementary math and what follows, and there's more than one way to skin the elementary challenge cat for math gifted kids (not a comprehensive list):

 

1. Work through a tough (and "tough" is relative) program or programs at grade level, making/supplementing with problems as difficult as necessary.

2. Work through a tough program or programs at speed, according to ability and then have fun playing with all the K6 tools. Maybe skipping sections here and there if already mastered.

3. Work through an "average" or relatively easy program at speed and then have fun playing with all the K6 tools, embracing (hopefully) and filling in gaps as they're met. Maybe skipping sections here and there if already mastered.

4. Learning to use your tools as you go (best with a math confident and competent parent)... dive right in (often in combination with one of the above choices).

5. Find something that will give them everything at once (DD the Elder used Mathematics 6 from Perpendicular Press to fill in gaps).

 

The first and second approaches were not the best for DD the Elder, not because she couldn't do the problems (she could), but rather because she found the entire exercise pointless.

 

Since AofPS Pre-Algebra hadn't yet been published, I chose to let DD play with her tools rather than move right on to algebra. We were able to find some pretty cool books and activities, but there's only so much out there. :001_smile:

 

Now if a parent is taking an easy curriculum and significantly beefing it up with outside resources, that's fine. It just seems like a lot more work to me than simply choosing a challenging curriculum to begin with.
But what's challenging to one child is not challenging to another, and what's invigorating to one child can be pure tedium to another. Edited by nmoira
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Radical acceleration ... seems to be so sorely misunderstood. ...radical acceleration is a lonely business. If you believe in it with all your heart, go for it but don't expect others to get it. You need to really be confident in the decision to make such choices.

 

:iagree:

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Dory,

I would suggest not worrying so far into the future. He's quite young and there many options for how to proceed. Meet his needs right now, give him what he needs, keep the love of learning alive - and the rest will all work out in the future.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that kids in high school (whether they are high school age or not) will have A LOT more range range of options available including more options for both independent and group work. Your child may get deeply involved in writing novels, birdwatching, theater, volunteering, learning several foreign languages - or they might be really into math and need college math classes. You'll help them find ways to meet their needs in the moment and what you guessed they might be like ten years earlier won't really matter all that much.

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I am questioning a previous poster's attitude about parents using MUS and TT with younger children. I have noticed this poster consistently applying judgement on other parents' decisions with younger children with regards to programs like Kumon or MUS etc and I am surprised by her attitude when all this discussion is on the AL board.

 

MUS seems like an okay program to use for an average student who isn't going to be pursuing a STEM field. I would consider it for a student who simply isn't able to handle a more challenging math program (though I'd probably try Math Mammoth below grade-level for elementary first). I simply don't see the point of having a bright student who is able to do a harder program zipping through MUS just for the sake of being done with elementary math sooner.

 

My objection to Jr. Kumon is part of a broader objection to "hothousing" by parents seeking a "trophy child". There are a lot of people in my area trying to make silk purses out of sows' ears through this kind of hothousing.

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MUS seems like an okay program to use for an average student who isn't going to be pursuing a STEM field. I would consider it for a student who simply isn't able to handle a more challenging math program (though I'd probably try Math Mammoth below grade-level for elementary first). I simply don't see the point of having a bright student who is able to do a harder program zipping through MUS just for the sake of being done with elementary math sooner.
My first recommendation whenever someone asks about their child flying through math is to find more challenging materials, and it's likely this is the best solution for most kids. However, absent other concerns, I don't see the point of slowing them down or making them do every problem or even every unit, or keeping them at grade level, just because. But simply finding a more challenging program isn't the best approach for all children, and until you've seen a child crying in frustration because because they crave more knowledge -- they want to see the point rather than just tackle another set of somewhat tricky problems -- that might be difficult to understand. There's just not that much in elementary math that it needs to be drawn out through six years of incremental problem sets (and Singapore is incremental from year to year) for very bright kids. Edited by nmoira
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I know this might sound like a strange question, but I'm wondering how quickly I should be allowing my 5 year old son to move forward?

 

I believe the crux of the matter is, what happens if you don't allow him to go at his pace, even if he seems like he's speeding through curricula.

 

He's very young, he might forget procedures/algorithms those gaps can be filled as and when you find them.

 

I say this with all the experience of a mom to an only:D. My DD is radically accelerated, and I don't regret it one bit. She loves math now, whereas, earlier at the normal speed, she hated it.

 

Do whatever it takes to keep the spark burning. Even if it means acceleration. If he wants to slow down, you will know.

Edited by ebunny
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Now if a parent is taking an easy curriculum and significantly beefing it up with outside resources, that's fine. It just seems like a lot more work to me than simply choosing a challenging curriculum to begin with.

 

It's a lot more work for me -- and significantly more expensive -- but extremely more fun & rewarding for all involved. My kids LOVE it. This summer we're paperless. We're doing everything hands-on. I'm so excited to use Rosie's new videos and lessons and Crewton Ramone's lessons along w/ HoE for dd7. Dd9 will do Crewton Ramone's squares & quadratics lessons along w/ some MUS lessons. I am having a ball planning it out. The girls will have a ball learning it. I'm not worried about whether dd9 will get enough 'tough' math by high school. She's only 9. For now, she is moving forward and has developed a strong self-confidence regarding math (ETA: especially algebra). That is worth its weight in gold. This anxiety-prone perfectionist is all smiles now during math. Yay, God. :)

 

I've said before here so many times: Doing the same math day after day, year after year, would make me poke my eyes out. Talk about a kill-joy for teacher & student, imho. We're not a cookie-cutter family so we don't do anything cookie-cutter. That is so not us.

 

If I cracked opened Singapore day after day for 6 years I would literally hate it. And so would my dc.

 

Yes, my way is much more work compared to some alternatives. But the results are fantastic.

Edited by Beth in SW WA
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I won't get into the whole math discussion, because I have about 19 math curricula going right now, so I'm clearly no expert, :lol: but, I did want to touch on the bigger radical acceleration discussion.

 

 

There seems to be a great divide on this board, those who are in favor of radical acceleration, and those opposed. My (very limited) experience so far has been, that it doesn't matter what anyone else has done with their kid. It's not really going to help me. My kid isn't anyone else's, so what works for him is going to be a separate blueprint than what works for everyone else. Sure there are commonalities, but I can say, at this point with confidence thankyouverymuch, that when it comes to matters of pacing, it's on me to figure it out. I really appreciate the anecdotes and advice given here, I don't want to seem ungrateful, but I truly believe that each kid is going to need their own individual pace, with stops and starts, spurts, and road blocks.

 

 

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, listen to your gut, follow your kid, and don't worry too much about what everyone else thinks is the right way to do it. :D

 

 

Now I must go alphabetize my math shelf. :lol:

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Thanks everyone for the thoughts and ideas. All the discussion has given me a lot of information from a few different angles which is mainly what I was wanting. I think I've got a pretty good idea of what I'm doing with my little wanna be super hero now, at least for the next few years.

He told me yesterday that he needs more math so that he can learn how to fly. With that sort of logic how can I argue with him? :lol:

Many of the suggestions on here have been very helpful.

Thanks everyone.

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My first recommendation whenever someone asks about their child flying through math is to find more challenging materials, and it's likely this is the best solution for most kids. However, absent other concerns, I don't see the point of slowing them down or making them do every problem or even every unit, or keeping them at grade level, just because. But simply finding a more challenging program isn't the best approach for all children, and until you've seen a child crying in frustration because because they crave more knowledge -- they want to see the point rather than just tackle another set of somewhat tricky problems -- that might be difficult to understand. There's just not that much in elementary math that it needs to be drawn out through six years of incremental problem sets (and Singapore is incremental from year to year) for very bright kids.

 

:iagree:

 

I was just reading somewhere (can't for the life of me remember where) that rather than dragging out elementary math for so many years then expecting kids to speed thru algebra, why not speed them through elementary math and then really wallow in algebra for a few years and enjoy it? I too, don't get the reluctance to hold kids back from algebra. Heck, if they get there by 9 or so who's to say they can't just "hang out" there for a little while, even filling in gaps as needed?

 

I don't have a copy of the Singapore 1-6 series, but I noted as I looked through the Math Mammoth sequence from 1-6 that it's an exceedingly slow/incremental pace for bright students. I can see why a kid would want to pull their hair out doing nothing but arithmetic for so many years straight. ;)

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I let my DD who is 7 go at her own pace. Even if that means going way beyond grade level. She's been doing pre algebra and taught herself algebra to my amazement. She should hit algebra by 8 and I know she is more than ready since she showed me she can already figure it out. I'm just really working on cementing the basics first.

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