Do American children have a legal right to access to education?

[justamouse]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Sneezyone]

Real quick, I just spent 40 minutes on the phone with someone with K12 in their state. He had very helpful information concerning Ohio laws and the kinds of obstacles this family faces, and some advice for proceeding in a way that might be least harmful to the kids. He suggested contacting grandparents, including CPS in the picture if we don't get immediate good feedback, and trying to help steer everyone toward some steps other than just throwing the kids in the public school. He thought the environment would be so foreign, and the school would lack the resources to remediate students that are 6-10 years behind, so they'd be put in special ed and just passed on until they graduated.

 

See, that's exactly what the director of the Sylvan center in their community told me, too. (I called him yesterday.) He suggested one-on-one tutoring, contacting children's advocacy groups about finding funding for a place like Sylvan or Kumon, and helping the family understand that they have to go along with these interventions before CPS is involved, because then they will lose their options.

 

This sounds so heartening. I sure hope this family sees reason and seeks/finds appropriate help. I'm no fan of removing kids but if they won't get help voluntarily I don't see much hope of avoiding more severe CPS intervention. IMHO it'd be better for the family to partner with CPS and local school officials than to make things adversarial. :grouphug:

[stripe]

I am so heartened by the advice, care, and support of these two men at K12 and Sylvan. They really gave me courage as well as helpful information.

 

:grouphug: i am so glad you're getting help.

 

In "Stupid in America: How We Cheat Our Kids" John Stossel, took a boy in public high school, whose mother was constantly asking the school for help but the school did not act, to Sylvan on their own money and he gained an amazing amount of reading skills in a few months.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/t/story?id=1500338

 

I don't mention this because I am a fan of John Stossel or anything of the sort, but I thought it portrayed Sylvan as being very helpful in a case of a boy who'd been drastically undereducated.

[NASDAQ]

 

Ignoring the current thread subject, how else could this work? Let's say that the US & Canada want to negotiate a treaty wherein tourist citizens of either country would be allowed visit the other for 30 days without a visa. If the two federal governments can't trump local laws, then every single state would have to negotiate with every province? Or every village?

 

"

 

In Canada, Canadian laws take precedence over any treaties signed by the federal government. When a law and a treaty are at odds, either the legislation has to be changed or the treaty has to be abandoned. What's more, treaties are not self-executing in Canada, meaning that treaties or conventions issued by international organizations have no legal standing in the country, though some may actually reflect a law in effect here already.

Also, because of Canada's status as a federation, certain treaties can involve the provinces. If the country has to change a statute or piece of legislation to meet international commitments, the provinces are asked to cooperate voluntarily. That's because provincial laws don't change automatically-the federal government not having the authority to legislate on behalf of the provinces in their areas of jurisdiction. Indeed, courts refer to provincial laws in their efforts to comply as much as possible with Canada's international commitments when treaties or agreements don't patently contradict Canadian legislation.

For a number of years now, the federal government has most commonly avoided signing treaties or agreements if it hasn't first obtained the consent of the province concerned, or of all the provinces if need be. Some treaties or agreements cross into exclusive or partial provincial jurisdictions. In addition, before signing any treaty or agreement, the federal government generally waits for a province, or for the provinces, to change its or their legislation accordingly; and when federal representatives happen to sign a treaty that contravenes a provincial law, the treaty does not apply if the province in question doesn't amend its law."

 

 

Parliament is supreme and cannot be bound by the executive.

 

 

 

Canadian provinces guard their federalism jealously.

[AuntieM]

Robbie, someone mentioned getting help from a retired person... Are there any "retired" homeschool moms in your area that might be willing to take this on, perhaps as a ministry? Or even a teacher at your church who might be willing to donate the time?

 

Just trying to think. Of course you cannot throw your own family under the bus. :grouphug:

[Mommyfaithe]

I would try to keep working with the family and keep their trust for now at least for the girl's sake. They may stop trusting you and either move or cut you out completely. You must be very frustrated, I witnessed something of this sort in a homeschool family. In time the family listened to reason and signed their children up for on-line learning classes. Aren't the Duggars Gothardites? Don't they use a canned curriculum of some sort? Maybe the parents would be opened to what this family does and purchase a DVD based program or LifePacs? Keep up the good work..:grouphug:

 

:iagree:

 

I think staying available to the oldest dd .....encouraging her to study hard....and help her siblings while she can....is a good thing to do for now. I would hesitate to report because I think the scenario could very well end up worse.

 

Did you offer to help the Mom directly?? There may be some jealousy that will get in their once dd is flying ahead academically....and mom is still uneducated (good enough for me!!) sort of thinking. I wouldn't want the dd cut off. I do think once she is reading well, her maturity can jump in and she (dd) can move ahead quickly.

 

 

This is such a sad scenario....

 

However, I think this is an abuse situation, not a religious situation. I know lots of Gothardites, ATI followers....and their kids are held to very high academic standards. They do go to college....and not only Patrick Henry. Lol.

 

 

I think this is a really sad case.....and maybe mom needs a little wake-up call.....and an offer. Of help.

[Catherine]

What a terrible, sad situation. I feel sorry for the Mom too. If anyone is interested in the story of a young woman who eventually escaped a similar situation, there are two blogs I'd recommend: quivering daughters, and quivering no more. Just google them. Tibbie's family friend is NOT the only one out there.

[celticmom]

Is the family the same one in this thread? http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328906

 

I know you spoke with Sylvan, my dd7 goes to Kumon and I have seen a few high school age kids working on work that she has completed so remedial work would definitely be an option there as well.

 

Is it possible that the mother is severely burned out and/or depressed? The reason I ask this is that if that is the case it will be difficult to truly help the children without addressing that issue.

[Murphy101]

Is the family the same one in this thread? http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328906

 

I know you spoke with Sylvan, my dd7 goes to Kumon and I have seen a few high school age kids working on work that she has completed so remedial work would definitely be an option there as well.

 

Is it possible that the mother is severely burned out and/or depressed? The reason I ask this is that if that is the case it will be difficult to truly help the children without addressing that issue.

 

I don't think so. She says they lives on the other side of the country. I'd have a hard time being this worked up when I'm not actually there to know the details of things.

[Murphy101]

WAIT!

 

I have a question I haven't seen addressed...

 

If this family is refusing to let their children be educated at all, then why are they okay with the OP helping their kids?:confused:

 

Am I the only seeing a conflict in the posting that these kids are being denied an education in the same posting that says the family is letting her tutor them?:confused:

 

Oh wait again. I think it IS the same family. All this info is based on phone conversations from across the country?!

[Jean in Newcastle]

WAIT!

 

I have a question I haven't seen addressed...

 

If this family is refusing to let their children be educated at all, then why are they okay with the OP helping their kids?:confused:

 

Am I the only seeing a conflict in the posting that these kids are being denied an education in the same posting that says the family is letting her tutor them?:confused:

 

Oh wait again. I think it IS the same family. All this info is based on phone conversations from across the country?!

 

The dad is agreeable to letting the kids get an education. The mom (for whatever reason) wasn't able or willing to give them one. The dad is not always there. The mom is. Tibbie has to negotiate helping the kids while the mom isn't totally behind the idea and is sabotaging the efforts because of her own perceived needs (for help in the house and with other children).

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't think so. She says they lives on the other side of the country. I'd have a hard time being this worked up when I'm not actually there to know the details of things.

 

WAIT!

 

I have a question I haven't seen addressed...

 

If this family is refusing to let their children be educated at all, then why are they okay with the OP helping their kids?:confused:

 

Am I the only seeing a conflict in the posting that these kids are being denied an education in the same posting that says the family is letting her tutor them?:confused:

 

Oh wait again. I think it IS the same family. All this info is based on phone conversations from across the country?!

 

Martha, the parents in question are being entirely honest with me about past neglect and concerns for the future. Is that so hard to believe?

 

I. Am. Not. Assuming. Or. Guessing. Over the last few years I've seen them very infrequently and not enough to know if my THEN-assumptions were accurate or not. I was irked and concerned but gave the benefit of the doubt because I had not been clued in on the details of their homeschooling. NOW I KNOW FIRSTHAND.

 

What would you do if a mother directly told you that she has no idea how to teach English or Math to a 6 year old and can't complete a third grade math book, herself?

 

What would you do if a Dad told you directly that his interpretation of "Better Late than Early" means that his 12yo can't write his own name, and his 16yo can't cook with measuring cups because of the fractions, and he's embarrassed and ashamed but not willing or able to believe that they have to teach the kids anything before they're 12?

 

Would you believe them, or would you tell them that they're probably too hard on themselves and their kids are probably ahead of public schoolers?

 

Would you say that, when they were asking you for help because you were a close friend from a long time back who they TRUSTED to help them with a minimum of judgment, and with some loving motivation to help them keep their family together while they try to solve this massive problem?

 

Or would you say, "Well, I don't like to assume. So I'll have to either call CPS or ignore you entirely," instead of asking pointed questions, assessing the kids, and doing everything in your power to both help them AND find local help for them?

Mom traveled with the family to visit me last week. She has relatives in the area, so they had a place to stay, and I spent time assessing the older children and looking at materials and interviewing Mom. She was quite candid. The kids had been instructed by Dad to be 100% honest with me about what they knew and what they didn't know.

 

The family has asked me to tutor the oldest daughter, because she desperately wants a proper education and I can tutor her online. I have worked with her for 2 hours online every day this week, and learned even more the extent of the educational neglect through working with her and with candid moments with Mom and the other kids. It is extreme. Most preschoolers know more of some subjects than these dear children.

 

But even as they begin to acknowledge the problem, they have not yet wrapped their minds around what will need to be done differently for the younger children. They still think it's OK for a child not to be taught anything until age 12. They still are thinking it's OK to deny the 9yo access to someone who can teach her how to read, even though she is begging to have some help.

 

SO: I have been ASKED by the parents to help the older DD. I have my foot in the door with the 14yo boy. But the family is still resisting help for the kids who are 12 and under, so I'm working on that issue. I won't let it go on for long, but I WILL do everything I can to help this be a peaceful transition that doesn't throw them all into confusion, chaos, resentment, or separation.

 

So that's why the conversation. What laws do I have on my side as I persuade and convince? What can I say to the grandparents, who I've met but not seen for a decade? How can Sylvan help, how can K12 help, what order should be followed in addressing this....

 

am I still the bad guy, Martha?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I apologize for my tone. My nerves are hanging by a thread. Looking back, I wonder if the mother was trying to tell me the truth over the years, but I didn't "hear" her. Maybe she was, maybe I'm imagining...I don't know. I feel guilty and overwhelmed.

[FO4UR]

Tibbie, I think you are doing your very best to help. This is not your guilt to carry.:grouphug:

 

 

 

I am hoping that you and the parents can find someone local who can spend more time with these kids. A retired HS mom would be perfect. I think I would really push towards this direction, in addition to the tutoring you are able to do.

 

 

 

 

And, :iagree: with the pp who advised you not to throw your own family under the bus to help theirs.

[ElizabethB]

I apologize for my tone. My nerves are hanging by a thread. Looking back, I wonder if the mother was trying to tell me the truth over the years, but I didn't "hear" her. Maybe she was, maybe I'm imagining...I don't know. I feel guilty and overwhelmed.

 

:grouphug:

 

Have they tried my phonics lessons? If the 9 yo needs a bit of an easier start, PM me, I have some other things she could do first.

[Murphy101]

I think they are sufficient.

 

:iagree:

 

I absolutely didn't know that the girl was Cinderella at home. I was around the mother much more when our oldest children were all little, and she certainly took care of her children and her home by herself. The biggest shock this week has been to learn that she has foisted it all on her dd. I did not expect that, would never have guessed it...

 

I didn't know.

 

Okay. So how do you know it now? Did the mom say she does nothing all day while the girl does it all?

 

The second-biggest shock was learning that the mother does not possess a complete grammar-stage education, herself. So all those little things that mothers naturally do to prepare their kids for reading and math, she was unaware of and unable to do! Pointing out colors and shapes, pouring, measuring, discovering math and pre-reading skills and nature...she had no clue how to do that stuff. THOSE are the gaps I'm seeing with the teens.

 

What the heck? Are you saying the mom is so ignorant she doesn't know shapes and how to pour and measure to cook? Yet you say she took good care of the older children when you knew her in person many years ago? And I can only presume she is the one who has taught her dd how to help run the house? I need details here, because in the surface this sounds contradictory to me.

 

When I suspected inadequate schooling over the years (again, only seeing them briefly once or twice a year) I thought that at least they were surely doing life-related math such as cooking with fractions, measuring for woodworking, adding up receipts, learning the calendar and how to tell time...but they weren't! Who doesn't do that much????

 

I am thoroughly confused. You say these kids are used like workhorses, but they don't have any of the basic knowledge basic labor requires. The girl cooks, but doesn't know how to measure 1/4 cup of flour? The boys work the property, but have no concept of how many cows they have or what month it is? They are religious but don't know the calendar? Sunday? Christmas? Birthdays?

 

No one teaches that! That is stuff you learn simply from existing! I am hard pressed to think an average child has to be formally taught that if they use it every day.

 

The dad is agreeable to letting the kids get an education. The mom (for whatever reason) wasn't able or willing to give them one. The dad is not always there. The mom is. Tibbie has to negotiate helping the kids while the mom isn't totally behind the idea and is sabotaging the efforts because of her own perceived needs (for help in the house and with other children).

 

Tibbie doesn't HAVE to negotiate anything. These are not her children.

 

However, instead of presuming the mom is sabotaging things, I would suggest asking her what tutoring schedule would work best for her family schedule. Or accept that online anything can be a PITA in a large family. I have to try to make sure my son(s) get an hour or more without any interruptions or schedule adjustments. I'm pretty good at it, but we have our days. I tend to prefer IRL classes because then I don't have to worry about family interruptions.

 

And I must say, Tibbie's ranting about their religious/family dynamics raises my hackles. I do not agree with them at all, but I don't at all agree with Tibbie's attitude about it either.

 

Yes, there are many kids that come out of the public schools with just as much lack in education. So yes, barring actual abuse, I would never risk ruining a loving family over the kids not knowing grammar and fractions.

 

I would also not purposely encourage a child to disobey or disrespect their parents, much less change their religious beliefs over anything that wasn't posing a danger.

 

I would report their evaluator for misconduct.

 

I would tell the parents that I have a hard time respecting their supposed Christian beliefs when they admit to deceit and lies and collusion with the evaluator in those deceits in regards to the education they admit they are not providing.

 

Maybe as one of your tutoring sessions she could take one of those CAT exams? She can take it at home while you watch from Skype and then promptly mail it in. Maybe the results would wake the parents up a bit? Maybe it would give the kids some gumption to speak up to their parents?

[SonshineLearner]

Tibbie,

Thanks for working with this family. Thanks for taking the time to get all the facts before making any rash life-altering decisions. It sounds like you are making progress with this family without making things worse (getting CPS involved that could result in taking the children out of a loving home and into foster care, etc.)

Keep up the good work.

Best wishes

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

It's important to think of the ramifications of turning a family into the state. One evil (no education) does not necessarily mean the evil of the government system (potential problems) is better. Getting help is necessary, turning them in is a big decision.

Do they have a church board you could ask for intervention from? Some churches still believe in holding families accountable..... That would be my first step....

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It is the religious belief that makes them paranoid about public schools. They've been taught and decided to believe that even total ignorance is better than letting the "state" know they exist.

 

They aren't the only family in this fix, although they may one of the most extreme cases. No Longer Qivering is a blog all about it. Journalists have researched it. I linked an article upthread about it.

 

Yes, most people will conversationally go over basic stuff just by living life. This Mom can't, doesn't, didn't. I have no clue why. She might or might not know those things (fractions, etc.) but she has not taught them to her kids. This has been explained to me, as she was in my kitchen looking through my 3rd grade Rod and Staff mathbook and saying she wished somebody would teach her (Mom) those concepts. She was homeschooled and married at age 17. I don't know why she isn't educated but she's not.

 

Mom said she wants the girl to get an education, but she will have to get up early and stay up late to work for it, because she still has many hours of chores every morning before she can do anything else, and she can't study in the evening because of her housework. Mom put it this way: "She is the Cinderella here! Chores come first!" The girl gets up the children and washes and dresses them, then cooks breakfast for the whole family, then cleans the kitchen...and then she has morning chores. She can't study in the late afternoon because she also cooks supper for a dozen people and cleans up after supper almost every night.

 

So far she's being allotted 1 hour for homework and 1.5(ish) hours tutoring with me. I'm not sure we won't hit a snag when we ramp up to a more appropriate work load.

 

I can't believe you think I'm so biased that I can't help these people for judging them. I'm not Gothard/ATI/QF, but I am a very conservative Christian with a renowned disrespect for the quality and motives of public schools. I'm just about as counter-cultural as I can possibly be, and I vote as a Libertarian. I just happen to believe girls and boys deserve to learn the 3R's. Since when is that even a controversial stance? A basic education is not the province of the worldly or the elite. It is a human need. Everybody knows that, or they would if it weren't for strange cults and sects that erupt to interfere with a parent's natural inclination to help his child go farther in life than he himself has gone.

 

Thanks to all for the tremendously helpful counsel and advice. I have pondered over and printed many posts and obtained some materials. I will follow my conscience and get some help for this family while trying to be respectful of their choices, and that's the best I can do. It's not easy being invited into something like this, but I'll be ****ed if I'm one more "christian" voice telling them it's fine if their kids can't read, add, or write because "at least they're not at school."

[Aelwydd]

I apologize for my tone. My nerves are hanging by a thread. Looking back, I wonder if the mother was trying to tell me the truth over the years, but I didn't "hear" her. Maybe she was, maybe I'm imagining...I don't know. I feel guilty and overwhelmed.

 

 

Actually, I think you are doing a hell of a job. Your instincts and judgment are 100% spot on. You don't want to rush to action, before making sure, really sure, you have an accurate assessment. Something you haven't been in a position to obtain, prior to last week.

 

It would be very foolish to let your indignation and anger over this situation to drive you to ill-considered actions like contacting CPS, without knowing what the many very serious and permanent consequences may be. You are NOT just doing nothing. You are actively helping the girl, while constantly gathering more information about the family's culture, psychology, and beliefs, while also researching legal and other options for the children.

 

That is a LOT to take on. Anyone criticizing you for not doing x, y, or z isn't reading or paying attention. This is a very delicate situation, and requires some real finesse if you're going to be able to help move the family into a better direction, without having to resort to reporting to authorities.

 

I'm a liberal person, as anyone who's spent 5 seconds reading my posts knows. My reaction to what you describe as this family's beliefs is a mixed emotional one including outrage and disgust. Everything about this situation just screams to me, See, this is what is wrong with complementarian thinking. Taken to its ultimate, logical conclusion, it reduces women to their most basic function -- breeding and maintenance of family.

 

That's my gut emotional reaction, and it would be very hard not to let that motivate or even dictate my approach. But that reaction would not help this girl, it would not convince the parents of the errors of their ways, and it would not prevent the chaotic intrusion of government officials. The fact is, such emotional responses are really unhelpful to the situation, and they cloud thinking.

 

It takes a very strong and reasoned person to step above one's feelings and biases, to try to find a solution that engages the other party, even while in strong disagreement over their position. It'd be much easier in some ways if you just called CPS and turned it over to the state. But it wouldn't necessarily mean a better outcome for this girl or her siblings.

 

I really think you are doing exactly what you should, Tibbie. I'm not saying you shouldn't call CPS or other authorities; it may come to that, and I agree with you that there's only so much leeway you can give the father and mother. You have to do what you have to do. But, if it comes to that, it's not because YOU didn't first give them another option.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I am always stunned by the concept that some can believe that loving parents deny their children an education.

I respect Tibbie for trying to come up with a way to help the children. The posters in the thread who perform mental gymnastics trying to find a way to justify educational neglect? Not so much.

[Aelwydd]

:iagree:

 

 

 

 

However, instead of presuming the mom is sabotaging things, I would suggest asking her what tutoring schedule would work best for her family schedule. Or accept that online anything can be a PITA in a large family. I have to try to make sure my son(s) get an hour or more without any interruptions or schedule adjustments. I'm pretty good at it, but we have our days. I tend to prefer IRL classes because then I don't have to worry about family interruptions.

 

And I must say, Tibbie's ranting about their religious/family dynamics raises my hackles. I do not agree with them at all, but I don't at all agree with Tibbie's attitude about it either.

 

 

Martha, all due respect, but:

 

One, this isn't about you and your family, so you should really not project yourself into Tibbie's situation. This one family happens to be both large and religious. This does not make them the same as you. You are reacting as if this is a personal attack on you, which is ridiculous. This is not about large, religious families; it's about a particular group of people who use family size and religion as an excuse and a cover for denying their children an education.

 

Secondly, Tibbie is a Christian, and one I'd consider conservative. Certainly more so than myself. Tibbie has expressed valid criticisms of again, a particular group of Christianese people, using rational language to provide context for why this family is in this position.

 

That is not ranting. That is simply part of describing a very complex discussion. If anything, the only posts here that smack of the irrationality of ranting are your own. In demanding that Tibbie both cease discussing pertinent aspects of the problem (such as religious beliefs that shape the home environment and its ethos), while simultaneously demanding she explain herself and her observations to your satisfaction is not only illogical, your posts come across more like pure emotional outburst--like a rant--rather than reasoned discussion.

[Murphy101]

What would you do if a mother directly told you that she has no idea how to teach English or Math to a 6 year old and can't complete a third grade math book, herself?

 

I suggest several quality options for her. And I'd suggest several direct instruction DVD programs for her/her kids. (Teaching Textbooks?)

 

Case in point against the public schools - is this mother a public school graduate? So much for THAT plan.(ETA:nm. We are cross posting. I see the mother wasn't given much by way of a home education either. From their perspective, they probably figure it was "enough"?)

 

What would you do if a Dad told you directly that his interpretation of "Better Late than Early" means that his 12yo can't write his own name, and his 16yo can't cook with measuring cups because of the fractions, and he's embarrassed and ashamed but not willing or able to believe that they have to teach the kids anything before they're 12?

 

Oh good grief. Are you telling me that 12 year old has never seen his name written down? I don't show my kids how to write their names. They know their names because they see their names all the time. Name tags at church, on plastic cups at events, on books, on mail....:confused: Cooking? The picture shows a measuring cup and "1/4" pull out a cup and look for the "1/4" line? I haven't taught my 6 yr old fractions but she can "read" the picture on the back of a cake box!

 

I don't understand. Otoh, it seems these kids spend all day doing chores or whatever. Yet they haven't picked up on ANY of the day to day stuff they are doing?! That is not normal. Many truely illiterate people are more competent than that and you said the teens can read.:confused:

 

Would you believe them, or would you tell them that they're probably too hard on themselves and their kids are probably ahead of public schoolers?

 

I'd believe them and think there's something wrong with their kids if they can't seem to absorb any of the basic information in front of them every single day. Stuff such as what their name looks like. I'd tell them that is messed up and I don't agree with ignoring it.

 

Would you say that, when they were asking you for help because you were a close friend from a long time back who they TRUSTED to help them with a minimum of judgment, and with some loving motivation to help them keep their family together while they try to solve this massive problem?

 

I'd say as a close friend, who is trusted, who doesn't want to judge them, especially as they are asking me for help - I would never speak of them like this on a public board.

 

Or would you say, "Well, I don't like to assume. So I'll have to either call CPS or ignore you entirely," instead of asking pointed questions, assessing the kids, and doing everything in your power to both help them AND find local help for them?

 

I would assume, because they asked me, that they want some help and I'd offer it and seek other resources to suggest more local assistance than I could offer. I wouldn't call CPS on someone who believes very differently than myself. I wouldn't ignore them asking me for help.

 

The family has asked me to tutor the oldest daughter, because she desperately wants a proper education and I can tutor her online. I have worked with her for 2 hours online every day this week, and learned even more the extent of the educational neglect through working with her and with candid moments with Mom and the other kids. It is extreme. Most preschoolers know more of some subjects than these dear children.

 

So the mom is willing to let her daughter do more than she currently is. As for a 16 year old being more ignorant than a preschooler, again, I question that. Most of what my preschoolers know has absolutely nothing to dI with any formal or informal educational effort on my part. It's just life. I never taught them colors. I tell them to put on their blue shirt. To get the red sippy cup. To leave the black cat alone. That Sunday we go to mass. That in December we hope for a snowy Christmas. To hand me the square pillow. I honestly have no idea how a person of average abilities does not know that type of information by age 16.:confused:

 

I won't let it go on for long, but I WILL do everything I can to help this be a peaceful transition that doesn't throw them all into confusion, chaos, resentment, or separation.

 

So that's why the conversation. What laws do I have on my side as I persuade and convince? What can I say to the grandparents, who I've met but not seen for a decade? How can Sylvan help, how can K12 help, what order should be followed in addressing this....

 

am I still the bad guy, Martha?

 

You see resistance. I see an attitude of let's tackle one problem at a time.

 

You decide you won't let it continue. I see it's not up to you.

 

You look for laws on your side. I can't see how people can stay friends or help each other when they start looking for laws to be on their side against their friend.

 

You might be. Idk.

 

If you were my friend, I wouldn't be much friendliness if I were them reading this.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Martha

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Martha, all due respect, but:

 

One, this isn't about you and your family, so you should really not project yourself into Tibbie's situation. This one family happens to be both large and religious. This does not make them the same as you. You are reacting as if this is a personal attack on you, which is ridiculous. This is not about large, religious families; it's about a particular group of people who use family size and religion as an excuse and a cover for denying their children an education.

 

Secondly, Tibbie is a Christian, and one I'd consider conservative. Certainly more so than myself. Tibbie has expressed valid criticisms of again, a particular group of Christianese people, using rational language to provide context for why this family is in this position.

 

That is not ranting. That is simply part of describing a very complex discussion. If anything, the only posts here that smack of the irrationality of ranting are your own. In demanding that Tibbie both cease discussing pertinent aspects of the problem (such as religious beliefs that shape the home environment and its ethos), while simultaneously demanding she explain herself and her observations to your satisfaction is not only illogical, your posts come across more like pure emotional outburst--like a rant--rather than reasoned discussion.

 

:thumbup1:

[Aelwydd]

I

 

If you were my friend, I wouldn't be much friendliness if I were them reading this.

 

 

There is such a thing as intervention, and true friends know when one is needed to save another from a destructive path.

 

Once again, this is not about you, personally, Martha.

[justamouse]

:iagree:

 

 

 

Okay. So how do you know it now? Did the mom say she does nothing all day while the girl does it all?

 

 

 

What the heck? Are you saying the mom is so ignorant she doesn't know shapes and how to pour and measure to cook? Yet you say she took good care of the older children when you knew her in person many years ago? And I can only presume she is the one who has taught her dd how to help run the house? I need details here, because in the surface this sounds contradictory to me.

 

 

 

I am thoroughly confused. You say these kids are used like workhorses, but they don't have any of the basic knowledge basic labor requires. The girl cooks, but doesn't know how to measure 1/4 cup of flour? The boys work the property, but have no concept of how many cows they have or what month it is? They are religious but don't know the calendar? Sunday? Christmas? Birthdays?

 

No one teaches that! That is stuff you learn simply from existing! I am hard pressed to think an average child has to be formally taught that if they use it every day.

 

 

 

Tibbie doesn't HAVE to negotiate anything. These are not her children.

 

However, instead of presuming the mom is sabotaging things, I would suggest asking her what tutoring schedule would work best for her family schedule. Or accept that online anything can be a PITA in a large family. I have to try to make sure my son(s) get an hour or more without any interruptions or schedule adjustments. I'm pretty good at it, but we have our days. I tend to prefer IRL classes because then I don't have to worry about family interruptions.

 

And I must say, Tibbie's ranting about their religious/family dynamics raises my hackles. I do not agree with them at all, but I don't at all agree with Tibbie's attitude about it either.

 

Yes, there are many kids that come out of the public schools with just as much lack in education. So yes, barring actual abuse, I would never risk ruining a loving family over the kids not knowing grammar and fractions.

 

I would also not purposely encourage a child to disobey or disrespect their parents, much less change their religious beliefs over anything that wasn't posing a danger.

 

I would report their evaluator for misconduct.

 

I would tell the parents that I have a hard time respecting their supposed Christian beliefs when they admit to deceit and lies and collusion with the evaluator in those deceits in regards to the education they admit they are not providing.

 

Maybe as one of your tutoring sessions she could take one of those CAT exams? She can take it at home while you watch from Skype and then promptly mail it in. Maybe the results would wake the parents up a bit? Maybe it would give the kids some gumption to speak up to their parents?

 

 

Please. You don't know much about this, and I've actually talked to Tibbie for hours about it. You are not understanding.

 

She's not dealing with misunderstanding, though the pile on may have her feeling like she would have.

 

Do you know how mates sabotage another mate's desire to lose weight? Because it creates guilt or whatnot in the person who is NOT on the diet, and then they proceed to passively aggressively make it as hard as they can on the dieter? THAT is what this mother is doing.

 

Please, this is not about a family like yours or mine, it's not about us. This is not about you or I asking our oldest to help a few minutes with something, or helping with a family project.

 

You really don't understand.

Edited May 12, 2012 by justamouse

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

Case in point against the public schools - is this mother a public school graduate? So much for THAT plan.

 

Yep. No one ever learns anything in public schools.

 

Oh good grief. Are you telling me that 12 year old has never seen his name written down? I don't show my kids how to write their names. They know their names because they see their names all the time. Name tags at church, on plastic cups at events, on books, on mail....:confused: Cooking? The picture shows a measuring cup and "1/4" pull out a cup and look for the "1/4" line? I haven't taught my 6 yr old fractions but she can "read" the picture on the back of a cake box!

 

And you never gave one bit of instruction at all in those scenarios? Doubtful. My guess is you were teaching without even thinking about it. Not all parents do that though.

Plus, application and understanding are two very different things.

 

I would assume, because they asked me, that they want some help and I'd offer it and seek other resources to suggest more local assistance than I could offer. I wouldn't call CPS on someone who believes very differently than myself. I wouldn't ignore them asking me for help.

 

If they fundamentally harming their children and don't fix the problem, then yes, they should have CPS called on them.

 

 

You decide you won't let it continue. I see it's not up to you.

 

 

You look for laws on your side. I can't see how people can stay friends or help each other when they start looking for laws to be on their side against their friend.

 

I wouldn't let my friendship get in the way of doing what is right. Raising children in ignorance is not something acceptable in my world. YMMV.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Martha, if you want to see me as an enemy to this family instead of as someone trying to help them, knock yourself out. I know it's not true, so who cares what you think about it?

 

If I were the Mom or Dad reading this thread I might not like the characterization of my home or beliefs, but I would see the words quoted that I had said. I would see the facts shared that I had given. And I would see the love of a friend who was angry and indignant toward my deficiencies yet determined to help me keep my family together instead of leaving my kids begging for help, or calling CPS to intervene.

 

I'd be ashamed and mad, but I'd have to be a fool not to see that I sure lucked out by going to Tibbie Dunbar first.

 

And of course I asked Mom about her schedule before I began the tutoring sessions. Of course I did! I accommodated her time choice even though I am teaching a houseful of children of my own all day and need to get the house cleaned and supper on the stove for my own husband. I have no daughters to help me with chores or do them for me. I actually do the work around here. I didn't mention any of my (obvious) responsibilities but told Mom I would meet with her dd at whatever time they chose.

 

Is that good enough?

 

That's the last answer you'll get from me on this topic, Martha.

[Aelwydd]

I am always stunned by the concept that some can believe that loving parents deny their children an education.

 

Some dark sense of schadenfreude in me wants to propose a drinking game where I get to drink every time you're stunned by that, C.R.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Some dark sense of schadenfreude in me wants to propose a drinking game where I get to drink every time you're stunned by that, C.R.

 

That...that would not end well.:lol::lol:

[Aelwydd]

That...that would not end well.:lol::lol:

 

 

Yes...it would end in a terribly heated thread about soused mothers, interventions, and their poorly educated children.

[LillyMama]

Martha, if you want to see me as an enemy to this family instead of as someone trying to help them, knock yourself out. I know it's not true, so who cares what you think about it?

 

If I were the Mom or Dad reading this thread I might not like the characterization of my home or beliefs, but I would see the words quoted that I had said. I would see the facts shared that I had given. And I would see the love of a friend who was angry and indignant toward my deficiencies yet determined to help me keep my family together instead of leaving my kids begging for help, or calling CPS to intervene.

 

I'd be ashamed and mad, but I'd have to be a fool not to see that I sure lucked out by going to Tibbie Dunbar first.

 

 

Wow, this was not the thread to forget to subscribe to...

 

Tibbie, you don't have to justify yourself to anyone here, any more than any of us do. You asked a reasonable question about legalities, rooted in concern, and it has rabbit-trailed. It's now become personal and I don't think you need this right now. You're hands are full enough. Your heart is tender and, frankly, I don't think you should punish it any more.

 

If it doesn't offend you, as I don't know your beliefs, I would like to pray for you. If you ever want someone to PM to vent, I am happy to listen and try to give non-judgmental advice. My first piece would be that I feel this thread has run its course and is not longer constructive for you.

 

Hang in there. May you find peace in some aspect of this situation, whatever decisions you make.

[Murphy101]

Oh geez people. What the freck? I see this thread should have been noted as a JAWM thread.

 

OF COURSE I DON'T KNOW THE SITUATION! That's why, in a discussion, questions are asked, possibilities are posed, and information is exchanged.

 

Next time just note that anyone who might disagree or have a different perspective just can't understand and needs to know to JAWM.

 

 

Do you know how mates sabotage another mate's desire to lose weight? Because it creates guilt or whatnot in the person who is NOT on the diet, and then they proceed to passively aggressively make it as hard as they can on the dieter? THAT is what this mother is doing.

 

That's a shame. And if she were my friend, I'd tell her so.

 

Yep. No one ever learns anything in public schools.

 

Sure they do. Oddly enough if the parents aren't going to help a kid learn, that isn't likely to change in school. In fact, according to teachers, it's the biggest factor in a kid failing. So no, I don't see schools as solving a problem where the problem is aparents that don't encourage education.

 

And you never gave one bit of instruction at all in those scenarios? Doubtful. My guess is you were teaching without even thinking about it. Not all parents do that though.

Plus, application and understanding are two very different things.

 

Not really. I think I probably told them where the pencil and paper is. For my 6 yr old I pointed to the "1/4" on the box and the "1/4" on the cup. I don't think I gave any explaination of fractions. She'd 6. *shrugs* But this girl is making making breakfast and dinner and apparently has been for some time. Obviously she knows SOMETHING about how to measure?

 

By all means, I'm for helping to education these children.

 

I just don't understand how all this angst helps to further that goal.:confused:

 

 

ETA: I didn't make any personal comments against Tibbie. I asked questions. For clarification. For understanding of the situation. I posed what *I* might try doing in that situation. (Which was to help and find local resources for them to access - I completely agree with that!)

Edited May 12, 2012 by Martha

[LillyMama]

Oh geez people. What the freck? I see this thread should have been noted as a JAWM thread.

 

OF COURSE I DON'T KNOW THE SITUATION! That's why, in a discussion, questions are asked, possibilities are posed, and information is exchanged.

 

Next time just note that anyone who might disagree or have a different perspective just can't understand and needs to know to JAWM.

 

I think the problem is that the Tibbie had already decided to help, and she posted this thread as a means of getting advice as to how to help. I understand that you don't agree that she should help, and you have every right to make that point. But at some point, maybe we should be able to say, "Gee, I don't agree with you, and, no matter how much we talk about it, it looks like we aren't going to agree." And then walk away. If this were your OP, then I would support you continuing to push that point. But I feel that Tibbie has made it very clear that she doesn't agree with you, and, since this was her thread, that perhaps the time to share your perspective has come and gone.

 

I am sure that there are many that do agree with you. But I think they have probably read the tone of the thread, realized the "if" had been answered, and have decided to move on. I don't think anyone should be bashing your opinion, maybe just your decision to continue to present it in this particular thread.

 

I'm incredibly uncomfortable with confrontation myself, though, so perhaps I'm just too sensitive to the tones of voice I sense here. And I am new enough to this forum, and spend most of my time in the Curriculum area, and these kinds of debates are the norm. So if I'm off-based, I apologize if I sound like I'm lecturing.

[Aelwydd]

 

I'm incredibly uncomfortable with confrontation myself, though, so perhaps I'm just too sensitive to the tones of voice I sense here. And I am new enough to this forum, and spend most of my time in the Curriculum area, and these kinds of debates are the norm. So if I'm off-based, I apologize if I sound like I'm lecturing.

 

No. You are pretty much spot on.

[Murphy101]

I think the problem is that the Tibbie had already decided to help, and she posted this thread as a means of getting advice as to how to help. I understand that you don't agree that she should help, and you have every right to make that point. But at some point, maybe we should be able to say, "Gee, I don't agree with you, and, no matter how much we talk about it, it looks like we aren't going to agree." And then walk away. If this were your OP, then I would support you continuing to push that point. But I feel that Tibbie has made it very clear that she doesn't agree with you, and, since this was her thread, that perhaps the time to share your perspective has come and gone.

 

I am sure that there are many that do agree with you. But I think they have probably read the tone of the thread, realized the "if" had been answered, and have decided to move on. I don't think anyone should be bashing your opinion, maybe just your decision to continue to present it in this particular thread.

 

I'm incredibly uncomfortable with confrontation myself, though, so perhaps I'm just too sensitive to the tones of voice I sense here. And I am new enough to this forum, and spend most of my time in the Curriculum area, and these kinds of debates are the norm. So if I'm off-based, I apologize if I sound like I'm lecturing.

 

 

Which would make complete sense if I didn't agree that she should help?! I never said I didn't agree she should help. In fact, I said I agreed with tutoring, with seeking local resources they could access, and with talking frankly and possibly harshly with them.

 

There was exactly 2 points I didn't agree with:

 

A. CPS

 

B. That there isn't some other issue going on with their development. It is not normal for someone to not have absorbed basic daily life things within their 12-16 years of life. Things like writing their name, measuring when they cook every day,....

[Jean in Newcastle]

Martha, all due respect, but:

 

One, this isn't about you and your family, so you should really not project yourself into Tibbie's situation. This one family happens to be both large and religious. This does not make them the same as you. You are reacting as if this is a personal attack on you, which is ridiculous. This is not about large, religious families; it's about a particular group of people who use family size and religion as an excuse and a cover for denying their children an education.

 

Secondly, Tibbie is a Christian, and one I'd consider conservative. Certainly more so than myself. Tibbie has expressed valid criticisms of again, a particular group of Christianese people, using rational language to provide context for why this family is in this position.

 

That is not ranting. That is simply part of describing a very complex discussion. If anything, the only posts here that smack of the irrationality of ranting are your own. In demanding that Tibbie both cease discussing pertinent aspects of the problem (such as religious beliefs that shape the home environment and its ethos), while simultaneously demanding she explain herself and her observations to your satisfaction is not only illogical, your posts come across more like pure emotional outburst--like a rant--rather than reasoned discussion.

 

I agree 100%.

[Leonana]

Which would make complete sense if I didn't agree that she should help?! I never said I didn't agree she should help. In fact, I said I agreed with tutoring, with seeking local resources they could access, and with talking frankly and possibly harshly with them.

 

There was exactly 2 points I didn't agree with:

 

A. CPS

 

B. That there isn't some other issue going on with their development. It is not normal for someone to not have absorbed basic daily life things within their 12-16 years of life. Things like writing their name, measuring when they cook every day,....

 

I agree. I think your questions make sense.

[freesia]

Which would make complete sense if I didn't agree that she should help?! I never said I didn't agree she should help. In fact, I said I agreed with tutoring, with seeking local resources they could access, and with talking frankly and possibly harshly with them.

 

There was exactly 2 points I didn't agree with:

 

A. CPS

 

B. That there isn't some other issue going on with their development. It is not normal for someone to not have absorbed basic daily life things within their 12-16 years of life. Things like writing their name, measuring when they cook every day,....

I can imagine this. What if they home church and don't attend co-ops. A child wouldn't see his/her name if no one writes it at home and they seldom go anywhere.

 

They wouldn't learn to measure if they eat salad, frozen/canned veg, bread, potatoes, cereal, milk, roasts. I could easily cook (not bake) without measuring tools if I had to.

 

If the Mom doesn't have time/is too overwhelmed I can see her not mentioning colors, shapes to the younger members of a large family.

[Teachin'Mine]

The thinking that uneducated children can catch up in a year or two post high school isn't restricted to any religious population, I've seen it among those with no religion. The thinking is that school is bad, education is useless, and they can learn it all when they're older if they suddenly decide they want to. The difference in the family you're working with is that the teens themselves want to learn. They've got that in their favor. In no way would I personally call what they've done unschooling.

 

But these families are in the minority, and the fringe minority at that. In some states it's a struggle just to keep the freedoms that homeschoolers have, so it's a bit scary to have this family's situation become one to get the policy makers' attention. Kwim? I know you're looking for whatever legality you can find to force the parents to allow the children to learn, but ... I think I'd try to go about it in less of a legal way and more of a helping this family out way. I know that's what you're doing by tutoring them and all, but maybe there's someone who is physically closer to them who could also help out to see that chores don't infringe in their schooling and do other things which might make the parents more agreeable. It might help if you talk with the mother and ask her when she needs her daughter's help, and then schedule your tutoring around those times. As helpful as your involvement is, I'd caution against the mother seeing you as having more time with her teens than she does and seeing you as a threat. Could they do any online programs for some of their learning which doesn't involve so much input? Then you could be more as a "help when stuck tutor" or a facilitator in their learning. Maybe you could encourage the mom to take the kids to get library cards so the younger ones are exposed to books. I think that if you could possibly enlist the mother, and somehow make it seem like she's choosing to do these things for her family, it might be helpful to have her as an ally instead of an adversary. Just some rambling thoughts that came to mind.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Tibbie has talked to the parents in this situation. To the best of my knowledge, no one else chiming in on this thread has. Tibble has evaluated the kids' academics at the parents request. Again, I doubt anyone else here has done that. And I don't see that she has crossed any boundaries in doing so. Tibbie has never demonstrated deceit before on this forum. I believe her evaluation and have no reason to raise my eyebrows at anything she has found.

 

Tibbie has asked for help coming up with materials on other threads. On this thread she was originally asking if the children themselves had any recourse should the parents reverse their position on allowing the older kids to be helped academically. And perhaps she's asking for recourse for the ones younger than 12 - I'm unclear on that part. From what she's said in this thread and in others, she's done everything she can to help the family from the top down - with the permission and support of the parents. But she does feel a sense of moral obligation to help these children should the parents remove their support.

 

She's also realizing that she cannot do all of the tutoring on her own. There are a couple of threads open on different aspects of this situation but I think it was on this one that she was mentioning looking at places like Sylvan or something like K-12.

[Dana]

 

She's also realizing that she cannot do all of the tutoring on her own. There are a couple of threads open on different aspects of this situation but I think it was on this one that she was mentioning looking at places like Sylvan or something like K-12.

 

High school board link.

 

Really rough situation.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Hey, friends, could we let this one die now? I want to take LillyMama's sound advice to quit chatting on the internets and do what I need to do.

 

Also, at this point, all the necessary (and unnecessary) pm's and such behind the scenes have occurred and all yucky feelings smoothed over (I think) so it's a good stopping point.

 

I'd be very, very, very interested in spinoff threads about educational neglect, remediation, laws, etc. but I'm gonna have to be done with this thread.

 

Thanks again,

TD

[chepyl]

I can imagine this. What if they home church and don't attend co-ops. A child wouldn't see his/her name if no one writes it at home and they seldom go anywhere.

 

They wouldn't learn to measure if they eat salad, frozen/canned veg, bread, potatoes, cereal, milk, roasts. I could easily cook (not bake) without measuring tools if I had to.

 

If the Mom doesn't have time/is too overwhelmed I can see her not mentioning colors, shapes to the younger members of a large family.

 

:iagree:I only measure when I bake. Just cooking a meal...I just taste it, if I don't like it, I add more.