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Do American children have a legal right to access to education?


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By which federal or state laws, specifically, must children be allowed schooling? Could a neglected "homeschooled" child be truthfully told that she has a right, as a citizen of her country and state, to be educated? I know that's moral, but is it legally true?

 

Please cite actual laws, if you know of them. Are all such codes to be found in compulsory education laws?

 

I know that the WHO and the UN Rights of a Child call for access to education as a right of every child. What laws do we have on our books now?

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If I remember correctly...

 

The United States is one of only two countries to not sign the CRC of 1989, and a big reason was because of the education component. The problem is the UN language is that a child is required to have access to compulsory education, which is the language European nations, like Sweden, are using to make home-schooling illegal. The US had purposely not signed the CRC to prevent being obligated to the compulsory piece.

 

So, if I'm not using flawed logic, that tells me that the United States does not have any compulsory education laws. Otherwise why would we worry about signing the CRC, right? But the states, as others have mentioned, vary theirs.

 

I may be telling you things you already know, but that's just what popped into my head when I read your question.

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By which federal or state laws, specifically, must children be allowed schooling?

 

I would say yes.

 

Could a neglected "homeschooled" child be truthfully told that she has a right, as a citizen of her country and state, to be educated? I know that's moral, but is it legally true?

 

If there is Educational Neglect, then Children Services would be involved or the law (or both) and it would be up to everyone (parents, CPS, Guardian At Lituem) to argue their cases and for the judge to decide. I have never experienced it, but I would say the parent cant just say " he/she is homeschooled" and any type of authority just take their word for it and walk away.... I would say the judge would tell the parents they are required to do some type of school.

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So the main objection to UN Rights of a Child is because it may be only about compulsory school attendance?

 

If the laws are worded to reflect the rights of a child rather than the obligation of the parents, why would there have to be a slippery slope (or free fall) toward Sweden?

 

We have laws on our books allowing for public school, homeschool, and alternatives decided on a case-by-case basis. Could there not be a simple law that the child is entitled to some form or another? Any of the traditionally recognized options, but not allowed to deny education?

Edited by Tibbie Dunbar
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So the main objection to UN Rights of a Child is because it may be only about compulsory school attendance?

 

If the laws are worded to reflect the rights of a child rather than the obligation of the parents, why would there have to be a slippery slope (or free fall) toward Sweden?

.

 

Playing Devil's Advocate... because when you phrase words as to reflect the rights of a child, then when the parent and child are in opposition, the parents lose their rights. Yes, sometimes that should happen. Other times, the falsification could go the complete other direction, especially in the case of divorce and custody battles, and then a child could be hurt, just from the other extreme. You mention the case-by-case basis- there's nothing more we can or should do about it from a global perspective. The problem isn't in the need of more laws but in the enforcing of those that are already in place. THAT's what has broken down in your example- people who defend home-school should do so from the perspective that it is better for the child, and the child is their client, not because it's better for the parent. The people falsifying that information have it mixed up, but that's a flaw in those people, not the laws they are supposed to be protecting.

 

And, at risk of setting off a bomb, when you start putting the rights of children over the parents- what do you do with abortion rights?

 

ETA: I am sorry you are exposed to that situation, it made my tummy hurt to even read about it. =(

 

The fact is, it's a slippery slope because we all define "right" differently. Just like the right to free speech- people are entitled to spout stuff I hate, but to try to silence them would put my own right to spout my stuff. And some day people who don't agree with me may be in power (haha, "someday" means "always") and then my rights could be quashed.

 

I'm always a supporter of bringing more intelligence and individual accountability into the world- and I feel broad-sweeping laws undermine that. We WANT cases to be looked at individually. If you can find a recourse, someone to report this specific situation to, that's probably the best. But to put the rights of other, well-meaning and honorable people, at risk because some bureaucrat is dishonest, I don't feel that's a good way to go.

 

AND, one last thing- the rights of children is also a very new concept in modern societies. We're still threshing it out. Which is why people are so shocked at the backlash against home-schooling in Europe. For me, that's just another example of a time when slowing down and thinking through more laws and regulation has proved to be the smarter choice. I, for one, am glad that our Congress refused to ratify CRC after Albright tried to sneak it in.

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One glitch I think of when elevating the rights of the child above the rights of the parent is that a child asserting his rights will need an advocate to do so. Just who will that advocate be? Who will appoint that advocate? Will that advocate assist the child according to a policy that considers parental rights equally, or will the rights of the child always trump the rights of the parents?

 

I understand that some children do need advocates to protect them from their own parents. Does our system - according to our laws - meet that need? What I'm getting at is this: rather than load on more laws, can we do a better job of enacting what's already in place? Do we need to burden our current system with a set of rules designed to provide children with the sort of protection for which our current setup of state laws, CPS and mandatory reporters already provides?

 

It's late and I'm rambling. I know there will always be those that fall into cracks. But I wonder if entangling ourselves in a far reaching international agreement will actually help the ones who fall through, or if it just create a bigger, less efficient machine.

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But I don't honestly see how laws such as the following, fail to specify that a child's education is compulsory. Just based on the five I found (Mississippi, Idaho, Virginia, Washington, and Florida) often it is worded that the parents shall cause the child to attend public school (or be comparably educated elsewhere), or else that a child is required to attend (no overseeing guardian mentioned). I think if it states that the parent shall cause the child to attend, it is clear that the parents are in charge of ensuring their children's education.

 

 

From Mississippi

 

(3)* A parent, guardian or custodian of a compulsory-school-age child in this state shall cause the child to enroll in and attend a public school or legitimate nonpublic school for the period of time that the child is of compulsory school age, except under the following circumstances:

 

********* (a)* When a compulsory-school-age child is physically, mentally or emotionally incapable of attending school as determined by the appropriate school official based upon sufficient medical documentation.

 

********* (b)* When a compulsory-school-age child is enrolled in and pursuing a course of special education, remedial education or education for handicapped or physically or mentally disadvantaged children.

 

********* ©* When a compulsory-school-age child is being educated in a legitimate home instruction program.

 

Noting the ending of the section is

(9)* Notwithstanding any provision or implication herein to the contrary, it is not the intention of this section to impair the primary right and the obligation of the parent or parents, or person or persons in loco parentis to a child, to choose the proper education and training for such child, and nothing in this section shall ever be construed to grant, by implication or otherwise, to the State of Mississippi, any of its officers, agencies or subdivisions any right or authority to control, manage, supervise or make any suggestion as to the control, management or supervision of any private or parochial school or institution for the education or training of children, of any kind whatsoever that is not a public school according to the laws of this state; and this section shall never be construed so as to grant, by implication or otherwise, any right or authority to any state agency or other entity to control, manage, supervise, provide for or affect the operation, management, program, curriculum, admissions policy or discipline of any such school or home instruction program.

 

From Florida

1003.21* School attendance.—

 

(1)(a)1.**All children who have attained the age of 6 years or who will have attained the age of 6 years by February 1 of any school year or who are older than 6 years of age but who have not attained the age of 16 years, except as otherwise provided, are required to attend school regularly during the entire school term.

 

From Virginia

A. Except as otherwise provided in this article, every parent, guardian, or other person in the Commonwealth having control or charge of any child who will have reached the fifth birthday on or before September 30 of any school year and who has not passed the eighteenth birthday shall, during the period of each year the public schools are in session and for the same number of days and hours per day as the public schools, send such child to a public school or to a private, denominational, or parochial school or have such child taught by a tutor or teacher of qualifications prescribed by the Board of Education and approved by the division superintendent, or provide for home instruction of such child as described in § 22.1-254.1.

 

From Washington

(1) All parents in this state of any child eight years of age and under eighteen years of age shall cause such child to attend the public school of the district in which the child resides and such child shall have the responsibility to and therefore shall attend for the full time when such school may be in session unless: (...)

 

From Idaho

Idaho Code 33-202. School Attendance Compulsory.

The parent or guardian of any child resident in this state who has attained the age of seven (7) years at the time of the commencement of school in his district, but not the age of sixteen (16) years, shall cause the child to be instructed in subjects commonly and usually taught in the public schools of the state of Idaho. Unless the child is otherwise comparably instructed, the parent or guardian shall cause the child to attend a public, private or parochial school during a period in each year equal to that in which the public schools are in session; there to conform to the attendance policies and regulations established by the board of trustees, or other governing body, operating the school attended.

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So the main objection to UN Rights of a Child is because it may be only about compulsory school attendance?

 

If the laws are worded to reflect the rights of a child rather than the obligation of the parents, why would there have to be a slippery slope (or free fall) toward Sweden?

 

We have laws on our books allowing for public school, homeschool, and alternatives decided on a case-by-case basis. Could there not be a simple law that the child is entitled to some form or another? Any of the traditionally recognized options, but not allowed to deny education?

 

UNCRC is about so much more than schooling. It is giving children the right to decide what is best for them. This is a bad idea because children are not mature enough to make these decisions! We don't want parents living under the threat that their kid could sue them because they disciplined their child (whether it's spanking/time out/grounding/etc).

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UNCRC is about so much more than schooling. It is giving children the right to decide what is best for them. This is a bad idea because children are not mature enough to make these decisions! We don't want parents living under the threat that their kid could sue them because they disciplined their child (whether it's spanking/time out/grounding/etc).

 

This sounds like HSLDA's characterization of the UNCRC. I think it's a serious distortion of the document itself. The UNCRC has been ratified by 192 countries. Can you name even one country in which children have the absolute right to decide what is best for them, or one country in which children can sue their parents for putting them in time out?

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This sounds like HSLDA's characterization of the UNCRC. I think it's a serious distortion of the document itself. The UNCRC has been ratified by 192 countries. Can you name even one country in which children have the absolute right to decide what is best for them, or one country in which children can sue their parents for putting them in time out?

 

 

And why is it assumed that if education were an acknowledged right of children, that such a right would automatically supercede the rights of parents in a conflict of interest?

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I found a paper written by a law student that analyzes U.S. laws and rulings about whether children have an affirmative right to an education. I just skimmed the first section, but it looks as if this might have some of the information you're looking for.

 

http://www.law.msu.edu/king/2007/Urchick.pdf

 

Thank you!

 

I'm in a hurry, off to the orthodontist this morning, but I wanted to say thanks to all for continuing this conversation.

 

Rebekah, I also fail to see how the child's desire for an education can possibly be at odds with normal parental goals. If a child needed to appeal to the law to be allowed to go to school, that would show that there was something seriously wrong at home, wouldn't it?

 

But AuntieM and Wendy, I'm also wondering why the laws we already have are not sufficient, if enforced.

 

In this homeschooling case, the parents told me that they have lied when registering every year about the books and subjects the children would be studying. Then they move out of state for part of the year, most years, due to Dad's career, but they always come back for the required homeschooling assessment in the spring. They've found a state-approved evaulator who will lie on the assessment, never looking at portfolios but going through a sham conversation where she sits at the kitchen table with a checklist, saying things like, "Well, of course you covered this. I know you taught them that...everybody learns this subject on their own so I'm sure your kids know..." and signs off on it.

 

She does that for Christian homeschoolers no matter the state of their homeschool, because she believes in parental rights and wants to protect them from a persecuting government!!!

 

In their state, teens don't have a right to legal emancipation of a minor. If they are removed from the home for abuse or neglect, they go into foster care until age 18. The law allows for homeschooling and all the forms have been filled out, but it was nothing but lies.

 

Would a judge have a 16yo stand up in court and demonstrate how to punctuate a sentence or how to subtract two digit numbers? Or would he just look at all this fraudulent paperwork and dismiss the whole thing?

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All states have compulsory education laws. Children must legally be enrolled in school, or taught at home by their parents. I wouldn't call that a "legal right to access to education," even though it may fall to their parents to see that the children are enrolled, if you see the difference.

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So the main objection to UN Rights of a Child is because it may be only about compulsory school attendance?

 

If the laws are worded to reflect the rights of a child rather than the obligation of the parents, why would there have to be a slippery slope (or free fall) toward Sweden?

 

We have laws on our books allowing for public school, homeschool, and alternatives decided on a case-by-case basis. Could there not be a simple law that the child is entitled to some form or another? Any of the traditionally recognized options, but not allowed to deny education?

There are more problems than just saying that children have a "right" to an education.

 

The U.S. is the only country whose Constitution specifies that international treaties become the law of the land. If the U.S. were to sign the treaty, it would supercede any state law that existed and disagreed with. It would affect not only children's education, but whether parents can require their children to attend church, decide that they will be homeschooled instead of public- or private-schooled (children would have the right to refuse to be homeschooled), discipline them, and more.

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In this homeschooling case, the parents told me that they have lied when registering every year about the books and subjects the children would be studying. Then they move out of state for part of the year, most years, due to Dad's career, but they always come back for the required homeschooling assessment in the spring. They've found a state-approved evaulator who will lie on the assessment, never looking at portfolios but going through a sham conversation where she sits at the kitchen table with a checklist, saying things like, "Well, of course you covered this. I know you taught them that...everybody learns this subject on their own so I'm sure your kids know..." and signs off on it.

 

She does that for Christian homeschoolers no matter the state of their homeschool, because she believes in parental rights and wants to protect them from a persecuting government!!!

 

In their state, teens don't have a right to legal emancipation of a minor. If they are removed from the home for abuse or neglect, they go into foster care until age 18. The law allows for homeschooling and all the forms have been filled out, but it was nothing but lies.

 

Would a judge have a 16yo stand up in court and demonstrate how to punctuate a sentence or how to subtract two digit numbers? Or would he just look at all this fraudulent paperwork and dismiss the whole thing?

 

 

This makes me cringe, because I know for a fact that there are evaluators in PA who do this. It's considered one of the stricter states to homeschool in, but those laws really aren't any guarantee. (So obviously, I don't believe more laws will prevent these cases.)

 

I have no personal experience, but I would think in most states this whole thing would go to the local district before it would actually end up in court. I don't know if you can skip directly to court, and if a district has that false paperwork, they might be overstepping their bounds to even investigate. I also know that in some states (NY?) a student can't come back and try to hold the district responsible if they don't receive an acceptable education.

 

I know you don't want to reveal too much information, but it's tough to speculate without knowing the particular laws in the state.

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Perhaps there's something you can do to help this teen without going the legal route. What is the primary barrier to her education? Is it that her parents feel homemaking skills are of primary importance, or are they overwhelmed? Do *they* feel they are doing right by her, or would they welcome help? Can you include her in activities or trips to the library, can you offer a bit of tutoring, can you give her workbooks, etc. (all with the consent/knowledge of her parents, of course)? Is this just a difference of homeschooling philosophy or academic goals for the child, or does it border on or cross the line to neglect? Are there reasons specific to the child that the parents have chosen this method of education ~ LD's, etc.? (In other words, is there information you don't have that might change your perception of the situation?) What are their goals for her? Are these goals based on reasonable information, or misinformation?

 

If you are seriously thinking about emancipation being better than her current situation, I'm assuming it's beyond just a normal patriarchy or unschooling scenario?

 

I would consider what you can do to gently offer help before raising legal issues, primarily because it is more likely to work out well for both the child and her family.

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UNCRC is about so much more than schooling. It is giving children the right to decide what is best for them. This is a bad idea because children are not mature enough to make these decisions! We don't want parents living under the threat that their kid could sue them because they disciplined their child (whether it's spanking/time out/grounding/etc).

 

There are more problems than just saying that children have a "right" to an education.

 

The U.S. is the only country whose Constitution specifies that international treaties become the law of the land. If the U.S. were to sign the treaty, it would supercede any state law that existed and disagreed with. It would affect not only children's education, but whether parents can require their children to attend church, decide that they will be homeschooled instead of public- or private-schooled (children would have the right to refuse to be homeschooled), discipline them, and more.

 

:iagree: Homeschooling is not the only or the biggest reason we haven't ratified it. There are a host of problems with the language and how it can be interpreted to erode the rights of parents to raise their children the way they see fit.

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All states have compulsory education laws. Children must legally be enrolled in school, or taught at home by their parents.

 

Actually I think it's usually, be enrolled at school or be given a comparable education by (someone). In some states, that someone must be a parent. In other states, it must be a state-accredited teacher. And so forth.

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In this homeschooling case, the parents told me that they have lied when registering every year about the books and subjects the children would be studying. Then they move out of state for part of the year, most years, due to Dad's career, but they always come back for the required homeschooling assessment in the spring. They've found a state-approved evaulator who will lie on the assessment, never looking at portfolios but going through a sham conversation where she sits at the kitchen table with a checklist, saying things like, "Well, of course you covered this. I know you taught them that...everybody learns this subject on their own so I'm sure your kids know..." and signs off on it.

 

She does that for Christian homeschoolers no matter the state of their homeschool, because she believes in parental rights and wants to protect them from a persecuting government!!!

 

In their state, teens don't have a right to legal emancipation of a minor. If they are removed from the home for abuse or neglect, they go into foster care until age 18. The law allows for homeschooling and all the forms have been filled out, but it was nothing but lies.

 

Would a judge have a 16yo stand up in court and demonstrate how to punctuate a sentence or how to subtract two digit numbers? Or would he just look at all this fraudulent paperwork and dismiss the whole thing?

 

A judge would probably order an evaluation by an educational psychologist rather than try to assess her abilities himself. Both ability and achievement would be assessed, because low achievement alone could be a lack of ability rather than a lack of education.

 

More importantly, the child would have to be willing to testify that her parents had falsified the paperwork and that she did not receive the documented education. There are a number of reasons other than educational neglect why a child might perform poorly on testing.

 

If the teen is willing to explain what is happening - or not happening - with her education, this will be fairly easy to deal with. She can make a report herself to the local school district or to CPS, letting them know that the homeschooling evaluation paperwork is being falsified and she is not receiving an education. If she is not willing to report them herself, but wants help, you can report the family to CPS. They will want to come out and ask the children questions and inspect educational materials. The family would most likely be expected to show completed work, etc., not just evaluation checklists. If the children lie to CPS, however, the case will be hard to prove.

 

To make a case stick, the teen will have to be willing to tell the truth to someone - CPS, a court-ordered educational evaluator, a judge.

 

I can't imagine that children would be removed from the home if educational neglect is the only form of maltreatment. A judge would probably order that they be sent to school.

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Rebekah, I also fail to see how the child's desire for an education can possibly be at odds with normal parental goals. If a child needed to appeal to the law to be allowed to go to school, that would show that there was something seriously wrong at home, wouldn't it?

 

 

That depends. I do see posts here frequently about children who are unhappy with being home schooled, and who would prefer to be in ps.

 

I am completely and totally sympathetic to the cause of children's rights. I believe that to hinder or to frustrate a child's natural, God-given, innate curiosity and drive to learn about the world around them-- is a travesty and it is even immoral, in some sense. An education, in that context, is a human right in its most elemental sense.

 

However, the problems with enshrining rights in law, is that it has to be defined, no matter what right it is. A right to life. What is life? When is life? Pursuit of happiness. What is happiness? What is pursuit, and what is theft? What harm may be permitted or allowed to the community or environment in protecting the individual's right to pursue happiness?

 

With education, it's no less muddy. What constitutes an education? How does one measure it? What is the defining line between an educated individual, and an uneducated one?

 

I think the girl you are acquainted with is most definitely being harmed and being betrayed by her family. I think her innate rights as a human are being violated on several levels. In a very sad, ironic way, the very law that seeks to protect children by compelling education, is being used against her, thanks to bureaucracy and the corruption of officials in the system. Because the literal requirement of the law are being satisfied, through the approval of the state's home school official, the family are protected now. They have the official blessing of the state.

 

In my state, there are no such requirements. It's why many public schools are dumping their failing kids into "home school" by advising them to drop out and "hs" so as to avoid ruining the school's testing and graduation rates of success. They know very well these kids won't be educated at home, but there's no accountability.

 

In either system, kids fall through the cracks. I think what we need an overall sea change in attitudes about knowledge and learning, and that parental authority over children does not usurp certain innate rights that children, as human beings, possess from birth.

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Who tagged this thread, "come back?" :tongue_smilie:

 

Sorry, I had to take teens to the orthodontist.

 

I can't imagine the teen testifying about her experience because of the Gothard/ATI patriarchy thing. She and all the younger kids would almost certainly lie to CPS or anyone else.

 

She and her brother totally believe that their parents have the right to not educate them, and even to make them stay home long past adulthood if Daddy says. Anybody not on board with the whole scenario is "worldly." These attitudes are a massive barrier to progress, although the girl really wants to learn.

 

And she doesn't know how much there is to learn. I'm spending some of my tutoring time on that concept because her parents have insisted to her that she's so smart she could probably do high school and college in a few years! They don't (or won't) understand that she's only partway through grammar school in most subjects.

 

That was the first progress I made with the Dad, actually. I pointed out that all of the people saying this is all OK (church, patriarchy leaders, himself, grandparents who are turning a blind eye)...all of them actually went to public school. They had 12 years to learn what he's expecting his daughter to learn in 3, so who are they to be so sure she can do it? They didn't do it themselves.

 

So Dad wants me to tutor the daughter and I insisted on also working with the 14yo for math at the very least, but I'm not in their state and I'm doing the tutoring over the internet with Skype, online whiteboards, Google Docs, iPad, etc. It's far from ideal.

 

So far, the girl has done every single thing I've asked her to do. She's taking in education in giant gulps with a huge smile on her face! But yesterday was only day 4, and I had to forcefully advocate for her right to finish her tutoring session even though her Mom wanted her to start early on fixing supper.

 

I don't think Mom's going to allow this for long, and I don't think Dad's going to be physically present enough (because of work travel) or emotionally strong enough to see this through, even though I have told him what he's doing is wrong and he has to change.

 

If it were just the 16yo girl, I might advise her to lay low for another two years and leave as an adult if, because of the lifetime of patriarchy browbeating, she can't face confronting the neglect. Her other options aren't so great; she's unable to go to public school now, and foster care is such a giant unknown for a very sheltered girl. But it's not just her. There are many younger siblings in the same boat.

 

I've been reading, and if anybody's interested what I'm seeing is described pretty accurately in this article (although all the children described in the article are much farther ahead academically than the family I'm working with):

 

Barely Literate: How Christian Fundamentalist Homeschooling Harms Children

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I think what we need an overall sea change in attitudes about knowledge and learning, and that parental authority over children does not usurp certain innate rights that children, as human beings, possess from birth.

 

Yes. This is what has me questioning my earlier, uninformed stance in the UN Rights of a Child.

 

I understand why slaves in the American south couldn't be educated. (evil)

 

I understand why urchins in Dickens' novels couldn't be educated. (ignorance)

 

I understand why Sunday schools were started to teach the children of immigrants who had to work in the mills all the time (poverty)

 

I understand why children in war-torn areas, or places without schools and doctors, are unable to be educated. (not enough love from those who have for the have-nots...or else the problem is just too big)

 

But, for the life of me, I can't understand why children growing up in a middle-class home with a highly educated father, who have three schools and fully-stocked library in their town, are being made to work like slaves, urchins, or mill-workers of the past. Not allowed access to instruction in the 3R's. Not allowed access to other ideas of an American dream, of jobs, careers, choices...only told, "You are here to do this work because it is your calling as a Christian, and you will be a wife and mother when you grow up." Or, "Son, I'll decide when it's time for you to study. Right now you are fulfilling Dad's kingdom dominion (or whatever they call it) and you are to work on the farm. You'll be living and working at home until I think you're mature enough to grow up, but that will be long past age 18 or 21."

 

This is not religious freedom.

 

There is nothing in the Christian doctrine to preclude basic education in the 3R's, in fact, to read your Bible and obey it you have to be able to read. Nobody can blame Jesus for this.

 

Just as our vax laws in some states require that you must belong to an actual religious organization that is opposed to vaccinating if you want to claim the religious exemption, maybe our laws could state that if you want to keep your children ignorant of even the 3R's you have to name your religion that requires that.

 

Because it doesn't exist.

 

Even other Gothardites and patriarchy people manage to educate their children, and many do as well as any of us here.

 

Neglect shouldn't masquerade as religious beliefs that deserve protection.

 

And, it doesn't matter to me anymore that some public schools are horrible and kids fall through the cracks there. They have books, don't they? And people there who had some training in teaching who make some attempt to get knowledge into the heads of the students? And if she was languishing in school, at least she wouldn't be cooking for, feeding, cleaning, washing, and tending 7 children that she did not bring into the world. She could get a few hours of rest.

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In this situation I would absolutely call CPS in the state where this is occuring and provide all the detail/documentation that I could about any individual(s) falsifying records. At a minimum, an investigation would be conducted and the children interviewed separately from the parents. Educational neglect is neglect, it's abuse, just like any other form of abuse. There's certainly no guarantee that the children will speak up when given the chance but you know nothing at all will happen if you don't.

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In this situation I would absolutely call CPS in the state where this is occuring and provide all the detail/documentation that I could about any individual(s) falsifying records. At a minimum, an investigation would be conducted and the children interviewed separately from the parents. Educational neglect is neglect, it's abuse, just like any other form of abuse. There's certainly no guarantee that the children will speak up when given the chance but you know nothing at all will happen if you don't.

 

:iagree: I hate to say this, but this is what I would have done a long time ago. It is simply wrong to produce female children with the goal of having unpaid housekeepers. Neglect is not acceptable, and educational neglect is no more so. I am, frankly, appalled that Tibbie has not taken further steps to ensure the educational remediation these children obviously desperately need. :crying:

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Beyond giving the children an opportunity to tell their story, surely there is a state licensing body responsible for approving these evaluators? The state mght be VERY interested in knowing that one of their "approved" evaluators is falsifying government records. Yanking this person's license could help even more kids.

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:iagree: I hate to say this, but this is what I would have done a long time ago. It is simply wrong to produce female children with the goal of having unpaid housekeepers. Neglect is not acceptable, and educational neglect is no more so. I am, frankly, appalled that Tibbie has not taken further steps to ensure the educational remediation these children obviously desperately need. :crying:

 

Good Lord, Caitilin. I just found out this week. Up until now, I only saw this family once or twice per year and it could all be explained by "unschooling." Even recently when they began to invite me "in" to help the oldest dd, I couldn't get the whole picture until I actually started tutoring her every day and uncovering the whole truth. They never let me know what was really going on until now.

 

I'm going as fast as I can while trying to understand what I'm doing and exactly in what order I should do it.

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:iagree: I hate to say this, but this is what I would have done a long time ago. It is simply wrong to produce female children with the goal of having unpaid housekeepers. Neglect is not acceptable, and educational neglect is no more so. I am, frankly, appalled that Tibbie has not taken further steps to ensure the educational remediation these children obviously desperately need. :crying:

 

I absolutely didn't know that the girl was Cinderella at home. I was around the mother much more when our oldest children were all little, and she certainly took care of her children and her home by herself. The biggest shock this week has been to learn that she has foisted it all on her dd. I did not expect that, would never have guessed it...

 

I didn't know.

 

The second-biggest shock was learning that the mother does not possess a complete grammar-stage education, herself. So all those little things that mothers naturally do to prepare their kids for reading and math, she was unaware of and unable to do! Pointing out colors and shapes, pouring, measuring, discovering math and pre-reading skills and nature...she had no clue how to do that stuff. THOSE are the gaps I'm seeing with the teens.

 

When I suspected inadequate schooling over the years (again, only seeing them briefly once or twice a year) I thought that at least they were surely doing life-related math such as cooking with fractions, measuring for woodworking, adding up receipts, learning the calendar and how to tell time...but they weren't! Who doesn't do that much????

 

I didn't know.

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Tibbie,

Thanks for working with this family. Thanks for taking the time to get all the facts before making any rash life-altering decisions. It sounds like you are making progress with this family without making things worse (getting CPS involved that could result in taking the children out of a loving home and into foster care, etc.)

Keep up the good work.

Best wishes

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

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Wow, that's a terrible situation disguised as a devout one.

 

The state certified evaluator is committing fraud. She is the one who needs to suffer consequences. If evaluators - provided for by current law - are held to the right standard, then families will not be able to get away with educational neglect. Cutting her out of the loop will affect more than this one family. Now, how exactly to go about that, I'm not sure. But someone in the state dept of education needs to check up on her and accompany her to a few evaluations.

 

Am I for more government regulation? No. But ime, people who take care of business and educate their child have no need to fear the evaluation process.

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The sad thing is that people really can love their children to death, 'rod' them to death in the name of correction, starve them to death in the name of dietary discipline, and render them incapable of caring for themselves or their own children through educational neglect. We wouldn't tolerate any of the former however much the parents loved the child, why the latter? Love shouldn't be an excuse or justification for abuse/neglect. As awful as foster care can sometimes be (there are many, many wonderful foster parents/homes), it can be a lifeline when used on a temporary basis, allowing parents to rectify problems before resuming full time care of their children.

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The U.S. is the only country whose Constitution specifies that international treaties become the law of the land.

 

????

 

Ignoring the current thread subject, how else could this work? Let's say that the US & Canada want to negotiate a treaty wherein tourist citizens of either country would be allowed visit the other for 30 days without a visa. If the two federal governments can't trump local laws, then every single state would have to negotiate with every province? Or every village?

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Who tagged this thread, "come back?" :tongue_smilie:

 

Sorry, I had to take teens to the orthodontist.

 

I can't imagine the teen testifying about her experience because of the Gothard/ATI patriarchy thing. She and all the younger kids would almost certainly lie to CPS or anyone else.

 

She and her brother totally believe that their parents have the right to not educate them, and even to make them stay home long past adulthood if Daddy says. Anybody not on board with the whole scenario is "worldly." These attitudes are a massive barrier to progress, although the girl really wants to learn.

 

And she doesn't know how much there is to learn. I'm spending some of my tutoring time on that concept because her parents have insisted to her that she's so smart she could probably do high school and college in a few years! They don't (or won't) understand that she's only partway through grammar school in most subjects.

 

That was the first progress I made with the Dad, actually. I pointed out that all of the people saying this is all OK (church, patriarchy leaders, himself, grandparents who are turning a blind eye)...all of them actually went to public school. They had 12 years to learn what he's expecting his daughter to learn in 3, so who are they to be so sure she can do it? They didn't do it themselves.

 

So Dad wants me to tutor the daughter and I insisted on also working with the 14yo for math at the very least, but I'm not in their state and I'm doing the tutoring over the internet with Skype, online whiteboards, Google Docs, iPad, etc. It's far from ideal.

 

So far, the girl has done every single thing I've asked her to do. She's taking in education in giant gulps with a huge smile on her face! But yesterday was only day 4, and I had to forcefully advocate for her right to finish her tutoring session even though her Mom wanted her to start early on fixing supper.

 

I don't think Mom's going to allow this for long, and I don't think Dad's going to be physically present enough (because of work travel) or emotionally strong enough to see this through, even though I have told him what he's doing is wrong and he has to change.

 

If it were just the 16yo girl, I might advise her to lay low for another two years and leave as an adult if, because of the lifetime of patriarchy browbeating, she can't face confronting the neglect. Her other options aren't so great; she's unable to go to public school now, and foster care is such a giant unknown for a very sheltered girl. But it's not just her. There are many younger siblings in the same boat.

 

I've been reading, and if anybody's interested what I'm seeing is described pretty accurately in this article (although all the children described in the article are much farther ahead academically than the family I'm working with):

 

Barely Literate: How Christian Fundamentalist Homeschooling Harms Children

 

You do need to continue to try to help the family, but I see the bigger problem to be the evaluator. Is there a way to report her practice of qualifying education that isn't happening? She is the one legally responsable for the education of these children.

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There are more problems than just saying that children have a "right" to an education.

 

The U.S. is the only country whose Constitution specifies that international treaties become the law of the land. If the U.S. were to sign the treaty, it would supercede any state law that existed and disagreed with. It would affect not only children's education, but whether parents can require their children to attend church, decide that they will be homeschooled instead of public- or private-schooled (children would have the right to refuse to be homeschooled), discipline them, and more.

 

I haven't read all the responses.

This is one reason (balded). The biggest problem is the convention provides "economic rights" to children. We don't want to ratify because it could be interpreted as a right to welfare.

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Tibbie,

 

I am sorry I was hurtful. Pease forgive me. Truly, I am simply so appalled by the whole scenario that I just can't think straight.

 

I do genuinely applaud and respect your efforts on the childrens' behalf--it is admirable. And in no way do I mean that anything in this woeful state of affairs is your FAULT. It is just a disaster.

 

But, in honesty, if I found this out about someone I knew, even in another state, I would call the authorities--CPS, the cops, somebody!--immediately. This family's behavior.is.unconscionable. I think it unlikely that anything you can do, academically, at a distance, can be sufficient to redeem the years the locusts have eaten, no matter how dedicated you are.

 

I wish you and these children the very best. I have no such hopes for the parents.

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I would try to keep working with the family and keep their trust for now at least for the girl's sake. They may stop trusting you and either move or cut you out completely. You must be very frustrated, I witnessed something of this sort in a homeschool family. In time the family listened to reason and signed their children up for on-line learning classes. Aren't the Duggars Gothardites? Don't they use a canned curriculum of some sort? Maybe the parents would be opened to what this family does and purchase a DVD based program or LifePacs? Keep up the good work..:grouphug:

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I don't even know if information about the children's legal rights will be helpful. This honestly sounds more like a cult situation. Cult members may know that they are legally entitled to leave, but the other ties that hold them in place are so strong that they can't make use of that legal entitlement.

 

In this case, the children are caught up in a "total institution" - their parents have control of every aspect of their lives and every piece of information they're allowed to access. It sounds like they've probably been brought up to believe that their salvation rests on being obedient to the parents' dictates for their lives. If they do wait until they're 18 and then get out on their own, what resources will they have? Who could they go to? What skills will they be able to depend on to support themselves? They will have aged out of their right to a free public education, at that point.

 

Tibbie, you are in such a hard place. I understand that you are trying to help these kids as much as you can under the radar, but I honestly don't know how much you can do.

 

Are they being actively prevented from using educational materials? Are they expected to work so many hours that they don't have time to learn? Would they be allowed to work with you as much as it would take to bring them up to speed - and even if they were, do you have the time for that?

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In this homeschooling case, the parents told me that they have lied when registering every year about the books and subjects the children would be studying. Then they move out of state for part of the year, most years, due to Dad's career, but they always come back for the required homeschooling assessment in the spring. They've found a state-approved evaulator who will lie on the assessment, never looking at portfolios but going through a sham conversation where she sits at the kitchen table with a checklist, saying things like, "Well, of course you covered this. I know you taught them that...everybody learns this subject on their own so I'm sure your kids know..." and signs off on it.

 

She does that for Christian homeschoolers no matter the state of their homeschool, because she believes in parental rights and wants to protect them from a persecuting government!!!

 

Beyond giving the children an opportunity to tell their story, surely there is a state licensing body responsible for approving these evaluators? The state mght be VERY interested in knowing that one of their "approved" evaluators is falsifying government records. Yanking this person's license could help even more kids.

 

...The state certified evaluator is committing fraud. She is the one who needs to suffer consequences. If evaluators - provided for by current law - are held to the right standard, then families will not be able to get away with educational neglect. Cutting her out of the loop will affect more than this one family. Now, how exactly to go about that, I'm not sure. But someone in the state dept of education needs to check up on her and accompany her to a few evaluations. ...

 

You do need to continue to try to help the family, but I see the bigger problem to be the evaluator. Is there a way to report her practice of qualifying education that isn't happening? She is the one legally responsable for the education of these children.

 

I don't know how it works in the state in question. In my state, PA, evaluators don't need to be "approved" by the state, they just need to meet one of several requirements - certified teacher, etc. They are expected to use their professional judgement to interview the child, review the portfolio, and "certify" whether or not an appropriate education is occurring. "Appropriate" is defined as instruction in the required subjects, 180 days or 900/990 hours of instruction, and "sustained progress in the overall program". That last part is pretty darn subjective, and there are no guidelines for the former two either. (The good thing is that it provides the flexibility needed to address the needs of diverse learners.) There is nothing in the law that allows most evaluators to be approved/disapproved, or reviewed by the state. However, in PA the portfolio is also reviewed by the superintendent of the local school district, so there is another layer of accountability (for better or for worse).

 

OP does the student's state require testing? Have the students ever been tested? Perhaps something simple, inexpensive, and non-intimidating like the WRAT (designed for kids who may be behind, and administered one-on-one) can be used as a placement/evaluation tool. Sometimes a very low score on something like the WRAT can be a huge wake-up for parents who are severely unaware of how their child's progress compares to a typical kid's progress.

 

Go slowly, keep the parent's trust, plant little seeds, wait for them to grow, be respectful.

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????

 

Ignoring the current thread subject, how else could this work? Let's say that the US & Canada want to negotiate a treaty wherein tourist citizens of either country would be allowed visit the other for 30 days without a visa. If the two federal governments can't trump local laws, then every single state would have to negotiate with every province? Or every village?

If the U.S. and Canada need to work on a treaty so that each country's citizens can cross into the other country without a visa, they can do that.

 

The U.N. treaty wants to give children "rights." If these "rights" include things like children having a "right" to decide how they will be educated, then even though an individual state gives parents the right to teach the children at home, the parents have to abide by that treaty, which has superceded their own country's law.

 

The U.N. Treaty wants to make it illegal to use corporal punishment.

 

This Wikipedia article points out that countries have to periodically report to a U.N. committee regarding their progress in advancing child rights.

 

Personally, I don't want the U.N. deciding how the citizens of any country educate or discipline their children. I cannot imagine why the countries who signed the Treaty think they should have to appear before any outside authority to report on their "progress."

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Caitilin, that's OK. :grouphug: I'm horrified, too, and having a hard time sorting through this situation because of the strong emotions.

I'm sorry for not answering everything. I'll bbl, my ds needs this computer for math right now.

Real quick, I just spent 40 minutes on the phone with someone with K12 in their state. He had very helpful information concerning their state laws and the kinds of obstacles this family faces, and some advice for proceeding in a way that might be least harmful to the kids. He suggested contacting grandparents, including CPS in the picture if we don't get immediate good feedback, and trying to help steer everyone toward some steps other than just throwing the kids in the public school. He thought the environment would be so foreign, and the school would lack the resources to remediate students that are 6-10 years behind, so they'd be put in special ed and just passed on until they graduated.

See, that's exactly what the director of the Sylvan center in their community told me, too. (I called him yesterday.) He suggested one-on-one tutoring, contacting children's advocacy groups about finding funding for a place like Sylvan or Kumon, and helping the family understand that they have to go along with these interventions before CPS is involved, because then they will lose their options.

I am so heartened by the advice, care, and support of these two men at K12 and Sylvan. They really gave me courage as well as helpful information.

Rivka, I can't keep doing what I'm doing. I love my student, she is capable and eager, and she loves having me for a teacher. She likes my combination of WTM and CM methods to learn to study with, and is so excited to work with me.

....but my own second-grader only got two school days this week, I wasn't able to practice with my 15yo for his guitar concert tomorrow night, and we've ordered pizza twice for supper. DH has gotten no attention whatsoever except to be the sounding board for my anger over the situation.

No, I don't have time to do what I'm doing. I can't trade my family for theirs.

BBL

(For anyone reading who wants to say, "Anything is better than ps," or "You just don't understand unschooling," please don't bother saying either of those to me right now! Being entirely unable to pass the GED or ASVAB or even to enter fourth grade is not better than ps, and it is not unschooling. There are bad homeschooling situations. There are.)

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He suggested one-on-one tutoring, contacting children's advocacy groups about finding funding for a place like Sylvan or Kumon, and helping the family understand that they have to go along with these interventions before CPS is involved, because then they will lose their options.

 

 

Is there a possibility to get couple of bright high schoolers in the area to do one on one tutoring? They can get volunteer hours that they need for graduation while at the same time providing tremendous help to those kids? Maybe a retired person in the community could volunteer?

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