The FLOSS rule and examples of words that are not FLOSS

[sweetpea3829]

We are learning the FLOSS rule (double the f, l, or s at the end of single syllable, single vowel words).

 

I am looking for words that end with f, l or s in which the final consonant is NOT doubled (but not because it's an exception to the FLOSS rule...because it doesn't qualify for the rule...for example, multi-syllable words).

 

I wasn't sure exactly how to google the question...lol. So I figured I'd ask here.

[regentrude]

We are learning the FLOSS rule (double the f, l, or s at the end of single syllable, single vowel words).

 

I am looking for words that end with f, l or s in which the final consonant is NOT doubled (but not because it's an exception to the FLOSS rule...because it doesn't qualify for the rule...for example, multi-syllable words).

.

 

I am not sure I understand correctly what you want.

You do NOT want multisyllable words, but single syllable words which *should* be floss but aren't?

Here are a few:

 

If

of

as

has

was

is

his

this

bus

thus

[nmoira]

I'm not quite sure what you're asking for.

 

self

curl

was

oaf

gas

yes

nil

poof

woof

[sweetpea3829]

No...not single syllable words that should be FLOSS...those would be exceptions. Words that don't "qualify" to be floss. Like a multisyllable word.

 

Or a word with more than one vowel...like "seal." (incidentally...is "seal" a one syllable word or a two syllable word? LOL!)

 

So I can think of a few...seal, meal, wheel, feel.

 

LOL, I can't think of any other examples. I'm hoping, if I can show my daughter words that DON'T qualify as a FLOSS word...she'll understand when we DO use FLOSS.

 

I could say to her, "Let's build the word feel. Ok...it's a one syllable word, right? And it ends with /l/, right? So why don't we double that l? Oh...because there are TWO vowels, see?"

[regentrude]

No...not single syllable words that should be FLOSS...those would be exceptions. Words that don't "qualify" to be floss. Like a multisyllable word.

 

Or a word with more than one vowel...like "seal." (incidentally...is "seal" a one syllable word or a two syllable word? LOL!)

 

two vowels:

 

foil, soil, toil

tail, sail, fail, mail

waif

feel, peel, steel, reel

steal, meal, seal, peal

 

 

multisyllable:

walrus

awful

Christmas

 

ETA: With that many exceptions to the rule, is it even worth calling it a rule? How do you explain all the exceptions?

Edited April 14, 2012 by regentrude

[*Michelle*]

capital

label

chemical

symmetrical

facial

handkerchief

bookshelf

mischief

werewolf

myself

[*Michelle*]

This will probably help, by the way: http://scrabble-words.net/

[sweetpea3829]

 

ETA: With that many exceptions to the rule, is it even worth calling it a rule? How do you explain all the exceptions?

 

Well, those aren't technically exceptions. They just don't follow the rule. There ARE exceptions, though! But I'm not even going to go there with DD for some time. She is barely understanding the rule itself. If I throw exceptions at her, she'll get all kinds of confused.

 

These "disqualified" words will help me show her when NOT to use FLOSS. Otherwise, she'll double the f, l, or s at the end of every single word she tries to spell.

[regentrude]

Well, those aren't technically exceptions. They just don't follow the rule. There ARE exceptions, though! .

 

Now you got me confused: if something does not follow the rule, isn't that the very definition of an exception? If the rule is "single syllable, on vowel word", how do you explain if, has, of, as etc?

 

In case you consider this a stupid question, please keep in mind that English is not my native language. I can spell correctly, but I never in my life heard of this rule.

[sweetpea3829]

No, not stupid at all! The english language is very confusing exactly because of stuff like this. An exception would be a word that follows the parameters of the rule, but yet, the rule still doesn't apply.

 

For example...the FLOSS rule states that we double f, l or s at the end of a single syllable word with one vowel preceding the final consonant.

 

A word like was...it meets the parameters of the rule, but we do not double the s at the end (I think because the s says /z/).

 

Eta...words that don't qualify for the rule, like seal, are not exceptions to the rule because they don't actually follow the parameters of the rule.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Sweetpea3829

[Ellie]

This might not help you at all, but Spalding's Rule 17 says, "In English we often double l, f, s following a single vowel at the end of a word." That means that those letters will not always be doubled at the end of a word. The words in which those letters are not doubled are not exceptions. IOW, don't teach that as a hard-and-fast rule. And don't try to make the process more complicated than it needs to be. :)

[DianeW88]

This might not help you at all, but Spalding's Rule 17 says, "In English we often double l, f, s following a single vowel at the end of a word." That means that those letters will not always be doubled at the end of a word. The words in which those letters are not doubled are not exceptions. IOW, don't teach that as a hard-and-fast rule. And don't try to make the process more complicated than it needs to be. :)

 

:iagree:This is waaaay too complicated and would definitely be confusing to a kid. I've never even heard of that rule, never taught it to any of my kiddos, and they all spell just fine...including my dyslexic daughter. I believe you are over-thinking spelling a bit too much.

[Matryoshka]

Now you got me confused: if something does not follow the rule, isn't that the very definition of an exception? If the rule is "single syllable, on vowel word", how do you explain if, has, of, as etc?

 

I never learned "rules", but I intuit them easily. I intuit that this rule actually only applies to words with 1. short vowels and 2. where the final 's' or 'f' is "soft" - meaning they sound like s and f, not z or v. In all the 'non rule-following' words you mention above (except 'if', which probably would be a true 'exception'), the final 's' or 'f' sounds like 'z' or 'v'. I'm thinking the doubling is in fact an indicator that the final sound is not voiced.

 

I don't like spelling rules. I like patterns. The "rules" are just developed by other people who have seen the patterns and attempted to codify them. It's much easier to look for patterns combined with the used of etymology - the patterns are different depending on the word's origin. Knight and light and right make perfect sense when you realize they're related to Knecht and Licht and Recht. Words of Greek origin are easily spotted and spelled correctly when you spot Anglicized spellings of phi, chi, epsilon and theta.

[sweetpea3829]

Oh, I agree that the rule is confusing. I hadn't heard of it before, but came across it in AAS1, step 18 I think it is.

 

I taught dd the first part...double f, l, or s in one syllable words. We'll add the next part in soon. But she needs to see when NOT to apply the rule or she won't "get it."

 

She probably is dyslexic. Haven't had her formally diagnosed yet. But DH is severely dyslexic and he can't spell to save his life. DD has comprehension issues, receptive language struggles and she cannot sequence to save her life (which makes spelling hard).

 

All things to work on.

[Ellie]

Oh, I agree that the rule is confusing. I hadn't heard of it before, but came across it in AAS1, step 18 I think it is.

 

I taught dd the first part...double f, l, or s in one syllable words. We'll add the next part in soon. But she needs to see when NOT to apply the rule or she won't "get it."

But there isn't a rule for when not to apply it. In fact, the "rule" is more of a "suggestion." IOW, words that end with f, l, or s *may* be doubled.

 

She probably is dyslexic. Haven't had her formally diagnosed yet. But DH is severely dyslexic and he can't spell to save his life. DD has comprehension issues, receptive language struggles and she cannot sequence to save her life (which makes spelling hard).

 

All things to work on.

And that would be why I'd recommend Spalding over AAS. The writing involved, with specific instruction on directionality, helps the dc *feel* the reading and spelling. Spalding addresses all the learning modalities--auditory, kinesthetic, visual--more so than AAS does. :-)

[sweetpea3829]

I hadn't heard of Spalding until very recently, but I'll look into it. Unfortunately, right now DH is out of work with a broken leg and we can't shop around for curriculums. We have to make it work with what we have until he's back to work.

 

If I were to purchase another program, though, I'd probably purchase Barton. Though expensive, it's the most often talked about on the dyslexia support groups I frequent. The only reason I didn't originally purchase Barton was because I felt it would move too slowly for my other three dcs and we weren't sure at the time, how G's reading and spelling would pan out. It seemed, at that time, as though she would be fine. She picked up on early reading very easily (but has hit a wall now that we've added digraphs and blends).

[Tanikit]

This is how I would look at this: Is my child ever likely to write words that follow this rule? Many of the more common ones are exceptions (was, this, is, gas) There are numerous words that do follow this rule else it wouldn't be there (moss, floss, boss, biff, huff, puff) Then: is my child misspelling these words - if the words are so unlikely to come up in my child's writing then what is the point of learning a very long rule for it that can be confusing. If my child is automatically spelling them right again I would not bother her with the rule.

 

Why do you want to teach your child when NOT to follow a rule - if you have to do this then the rule is not stated correctly. That means multi-syllable words should already be covered by the rule and you just ask: is this a single syllable word? No - then you can end it with a single L,F or S as it is not part of this rule.

 

Examples of words that do not fit the rule are: beautiful, plentiful, remedial, (multi-syllable)

self, elf (there are two consonants after the vowel)

meal, seal, deal, (the vowel is a double letter vowel)

mats, rats, guns (this is a plural form and again there are two consonants after the vowel)

That plural should be noted as with words that need a double s the plural will add es to it (tosses, masses)

Edited April 14, 2012 by Tanikit

[sweetpea3829]

That's the problem, though. DD cannot make that leap. Believe me, it was really hard to "get" this for me. I think like you do. It comes automatically to me that if the rule states single syllable words, than multi-syllable words are excluded. Her mind doesn't automatically make those connections.

 

This has been hard...I spell automatically and never needed rules. She needs everything broken down into the most basic of steps.

 

Just to learn this rule, we had to re-learn how to syllabalize a word, despite talking about it just a few weeks ago. We had to review the difference between consonants and vowels.

 

And I will need to continue to review this rule with concrete examples of words that fit and words that don't, for a pretty long time before she'll remember it long-term (and I don't know if she'll ever completely internalize these spelling rules permanently).

[MerryAtHope]

I never learned "rules", but I intuit them easily. I intuit that this rule actually only applies to words with 1. short vowels and 2. where the final 's' or 'f' is "soft" - meaning they sound like s and f, not z or v. In all the 'non rule-following' words you mention above (except 'if', which probably would be a true 'exception'), the final 's' or 'f' sounds like 'z' or 'v'. I'm thinking the doubling is in fact an indicator that the final sound is not voiced.

 

The only problem with the "short vowel" idea is that there are quite a few words that don't have short vowels where the pattern applies:

 

roll, droll, all, call, fall, bass, gross...

 

To the OP: I would just keep going through the scripting with her: does the f/l/s come right after a single vowel?

 

How many syllables are in the word?

 

I wouldn't complicate it beyond that.

 

This actually is a pretty reliable rule--as I look at the words and exceptions in The ABC's and All Their Tricks, 95% of words ending in L or S follow it, and 85% of words ending in F follow it.

 

HTH some!

 

Merry :-)

[MerryAtHope]

That's the problem, though. DD cannot make that leap. Believe me, it was really hard to "get" this for me. I think like you do. It comes automatically to me that if the rule states single syllable words, than multi-syllable words are excluded. Her mind doesn't automatically make those connections.

 

Ah, ok. So then you might walk her through the rule specifically, talking about what each word or phrase means. Really, you can simplify to 3 things she needs to look for:

 

1, does the word end in f, l, or s?

2, is there a single vowel?

3, is there only one syllable?

 

Let her know that the part about the syllable means that it has only one syllable. If it has 2, we are not dealing with those words yet. (Is she writing 2-syllable words outside of spelling, and that's why you are concerned about this? I think I would leave words outside of spelling that are beyond what you have studied in AAS alone, but I would take her through the things to apply just as scripted over and over).

 

If the answer to 2 or 3 is no, don't use the rule.

 

Just to learn this rule, we had to re-learn how to syllabalize a word, despite talking about it just a few weeks ago. We had to review the difference between consonants and vowels.

 

Yes, as you are discovering, it's common for kids with dyslexia to need lots and lots of review. The review box is actually designed to be customizable for just this purpose. These students will not remember a concept just because they learned it in a step, so you will want to customize how you do review in an ongoing manner--much more review and for longer than you might think or expect, but this is really going to give her that solid base she needs.

 

For my kids, I added in weekly and monthly reviews. Cards don't pass out of daily review until they can answer it quickly and confidently with little or no hesitation and no self-correction. Then I put them in weekly review for several weeks. If they continue to retain the phonogram, sound, key, or word card, then I put it into a monthly review to go over it a month later, and then finally to mastered. If they miss it at any point along the way, it goes back into daily review.

 

We still only spend between 2-5 minutes per day on review, and it really hasn't slowed us down to do this extra review (if anything, it makes the long-term time needed shorter--because we don't have to reteach a lot of things since we have kept it fresh for so long).

 

BTW, AAS actually is recommended for kids with dyslexia, and you can see more articles online about this and other topics in the Spelling Resource Center.

 

You may find for some concepts or for review, that adding in tactile and kinesthetic methods can help increase retention--so look for those articles in the resource center too.

 

Hang in there, she will get it. The author was told by a neurologist her son was so badly dyslexic that she should prepare him for a life without reading and writing. He's in college. You really can make a lot of progress, but it does take time and patience.

 

I don't remember your daughter's age, but if she's still young, she may just need time to follow the logic of thinking through the steps. Keep using the scripting though. Does it have a single vowel? Does it have one syllable? And just keep using it in the context of the program--it will walk her through the words gradually and incrementally, and get to all of those other words that fall outside of the rules (and also the ones that go with the rules but are exceptions).

 

You might take some time now to review all she's learned so far and get a more involved review system in place, before finishing out more steps, because there may be other rules that are tricky for her, and you really need that previous information to be solid for her. HTH some! Merry :-)

[Ellie]

This is how I would look at this: Is my child ever likely to write words that follow this rule? Many of the more common ones are exceptions (was, this, is, gas) There are numerous words that do follow this rule else it wouldn't be there (moss, floss, boss, biff, huff, puff) Then: is my child misspelling these words - if the words are so unlikely to come up in my child's writing then what is the point of learning a very long rule for it that can be confusing. If my child is automatically spelling them right again I would not bother her with the rule.

 

Why do you want to teach your child when NOT to follow a rule - if you have to do this then the rule is not stated correctly. That means multi-syllable words should already be covered by the rule and you just ask: is this a single syllable word? No - then you can end it with a single L,F or S as it is not part of this rule.

 

Examples of words that do not fit the rule are: beautiful, plentiful, remedial, (multi-syllable)

self, elf (there are two consonants after the vowel)

meal, seal, deal, (the vowel is a double letter vowel)

mats, rats, guns (this is a plural form and again there are two consonants after the vowel)

That plural should be noted as with words that need a double s the plural will add es to it (tosses, masses)

But the rule is not that s, f, and l at the ends of words are *always* doubled; it's that they *may* be doubled. So the other words are *not* exceptions.

 

Y'all are making this much more complicated than it needs to be.

[Tanikit]

But the rule is not that s, f, and l at the ends of words are *always* doubled; it's that they *may* be doubled. So the other words are *not* exceptions.

 

Y'all are making this much more complicated than it needs to be.

 

Rule: a principle governing conduct, procedure, action, arrangement

: One of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct within a particular activity or sphere.

 

I do not feel that it is a rule if the word "may" is included. I mean then I could add T and Z and D and G to that rule too simply because there are words like matt and jazz and add and egg in English (and then bat, hat, dad and leg are not exceptions) - and yes, I do know that matt can also be wriiten matte, or can be the shortened form of mattress or Matthew. What is the point of this rule - the rule becomes so long that learning the list of words that fit into it would be less confusing and probably take less time. How common does the example have to be percentage wise to make it into a rule without exceptions?

[nikkid]

Really, you can simplify to 3 things she needs to look for:

1, does the word end in f, l, or s?

2, is there a single vowel?

3, is there only one syllable?

 

We had to do this as well because I didn't start using AAS 1 until half-way through 2nd grade, so by that time she was already writing and reading words way beyond AAS 1. So when we began learning this concept, she would try to double f l or s when they happened in the middle of the word when they weren't supposed to be doubled, and she began doubling f at the end of 'of' (so that word I just told her how to spell and we memorized it).

 

I found the rule card wasn't sufficient in our case to just say "What three letters are often doubled after a single vowel at the end of a one-syllable word?" [and then child would answer 'f l and s'] She tuned out when to use the rule and just memorized the answer. I had to turn it around and ask her to memorize "What three things do we look at to help us decide when to use the FLS rule?" Then she would have to respond with the three things Merry listed above.

 

I have to think ahead on things like this...my dd has a tendency be able to give the answer you want to hear so we can be done with school, rather than really learning how to apply the concepts. So sometimes I feel like I have to teach her the opposite of something to make sure she understands the original idea.

 

OP: I know exactly what you meant by your post and I was in the same boat last year. I also happened to find words in books we were reading and point out those words every once in a while and talk about why it had a double f,l,s or did not. If you start looking at signs while driving or in books you read, you start seeing them all over the place.

[nikkid]

What is the point of this rule - the rule becomes so long that learning the list of words that fit into it would be less confusing and probably take less time. How common does the example have to be percentage wise to make it into a rule without exceptions?

 

But for me, as the type of learner who likes to know the why of everything and is constantly looking for patterns around me to understand how things fit together, I find this key card in AAS to be very helpful. We just know it doesn't apply all the time, but most of the time. We don't memorize lists of words at all, just concepts that can be applied most of the time. Although English has always been my first language, I find it very frustrating at times, and like having some kind of framework to help me understand how to pronounce and spell most words. I think AAS does a fantastic job of breaking the English language down into pieces that are manageable for understanding. Just my two cents.

[Love_to_Read]

1, does the word end in f, l, or s?

2, is there a single vowel?

3, is there only one syllable?

 

What helped my dd was to reword this to elicit the specific answers, instead of yes/no.

 

So, as we would spell one of the words with tiles or on paper or as part of dictation...

"off"

 

Oh! What sound did you say that word ends in? f

Hmm...do you remember our FLOSS rule? That we usually double the f, l, or s, at the end of one syllable words if the f, l, or s comes right next to the vowel.

How many syllables does this word have? one

Is the f, l, or s right next to the vowel? yes

Ok, let's double it!

 

I supply the answers if she doesn't, but eventually after enough rehearsing the same questions and answers over and over, she knows the rule, and thus can walk through it if I tell her to check the word for it.

 

At this point in time, she isn't responsible for spelling any words that don't fit! She hasn't covered multisyllable words, or vowel teams to be able to generate words like until or seal. I totally get what you're thinking about categorizing to help her see it, but it doesn't work because she doesn't have the contrasting words in her repetoire yet, so she can't file them in the other category as non-FLOSS words.

 

When you *do* get to multisyllable words that don't double that final consonant, you can go through the familiar script...and suddenly it doesn't match one of the answers....and then the lightbulb goes on that that is why it isn't doubled.

[LizzyBee]

Ah, ok. So then you might walk her through the rule specifically, talking about what each word or phrase means. Really, you can simplify to 3 things she needs to look for:

 

1, does the word end in f, l, or s?

2, is there a single vowel?

3, is there only one syllable?

 

Barton adds one more thing: If it ends in s, does it make the s sound? The rule does not apply to words that end with a z sound.

 

ETA: It also applies to words that end with /f/, not /v/, so of is a sight word, not an exception. It doesn't apply to words that are a shortened version of a multisyllabic word, such as gas for gasoline.

 

I don't know how to multiquote, but responding to one of your other posts... Barton (and some other spelling programs, Barton is just the one I'm most familiar with) teach all and oll as units, so words such as call and roll fall into a different category than the floss rule.

Edited April 14, 2012 by LizzyBee

[LizzyBee]

But the rule is not that s, f, and l at the ends of words are *always* doubled; it's that they *may* be doubled. So the other words are *not* exceptions.

 

Y'all are making this much more complicated than it needs to be.

 

I agree that's it's not complicated, but OG programs teach it as a rule, not a guideline. There are actually very few exceptions when the rule is taught in its entirety.

[Ellie]

I agree that's it's not complicated, but OG programs teach it as a rule, not a guideline. There are actually very few exceptions when the rule is taught in its entirety.

Spalding falls into the "OG" category, yes? Well, Spalding's rule is that s, f, l and z *may* be doubled at the end of a short word. It doesn't teach words which don't have those letters doubled as "exceptions." When a word is analyzed which doubles the final f, s, l or z, then the children write and repeat Rule 17. They don't discuss why other words don't double those letters at the end. That would make the whole process far to cumbersome to bear.

[jetted4]

1st: I have found the web site http://www.morewords.com/ to be invaluable when trying to come up with word lists. Lets you use a * to represent any number of letters a - to represent a single letter and fill in any known letters and it will supply you a list of all words that satisfy your criteria.

 

Example: type in *dge and it will give you a list of all words ending in 'dge', type in ---ff and it will give you a list of all 5-letter words ending in 'ff'. You can also combine the symbols: type in *sk-- and it will give you all words containing 'sk' that have 2 more letters after the 'sk' (so you'd end up with 'whisker' in the list as well as 'skin').

 

2nd:

(caveat, this is my own creation, but it's free so I think it's ok to post here)

After not finding quite what I wanted, I created my own spelling program that uses color-coding to reinforce the spelling rules (see sig). The doubling of f, s, and l is one of the rules I cover. Since it's meant for kids who are reading somewhat comfortably (roughly at a beginning 3rd grade level) it uses sentences that are not overly simplistic.

[sweetpea3829]

Oh my goodness! LOL, this is getting much more complicated than it needs to! The semantics of the word "rule" are really not the intent of this post. We all know that the english language has many of these "rules" and most of them have exceptions and words that don't apply. In this particular situation, as Merry (I think) pointed out, the FLoSS rule is pretty reliable.

 

For my daughter...she needs to see all aspects of this "rule" or "guideline" or whatever in the world you want to call it. In order for her to understand WHEN to apply this rule, she needs to see examples of words that do not fit the rule...hence the original post/question. She needs me to show her the word "meal" and explain to her that we don't double the "l" because there are two vowels in the word.

 

She has to review it over and over and over and over again. And then, when we think we've reviewed it enough...we need to go back and review it again.

 

Do most kids need to see words for which the rule does not apply? No. But she does. Do most kids need to have each and every fragmented step of the rule explained in absolute painstaking detail? No. But she does.

 

The intent of using words for which the rule does not apply is not to teach her how to spell those specific words. The intent is to reinforce the FLoSS rule itself and how to use it and when.

 

I haven't even gotten into it with her, regarding the fact that z is also doubled in this manner and that s isn't doubled when it's sound is /z/.

 

If I threw that at her right now, she'd be like :blink:

[sweetpea3829]

1st: I have found the web site http://www.morewords.com/ to be invaluable when trying to come up with word lists. Lets you use a * to represent any number of letters a - to represent a single letter and fill in any known letters and it will supply you a list of all words that satisfy your criteria.

 

 

Thanks for this...this will be very helpful!

[jetted4]

Forgot to include one word of warning about http://www.morewords.com/...

It is just a dictionary-driven list so doesn't exclude swear words...they will show up if they meet your search criteria.

(figured I'd mention this so it didn't end up taking anyone by surprise)

 

I know some programs recommend starting on formal spelling instruction at 3rd grade. If your dd has trouble conceptualizing the rules at this point, you could try waiting a year or so for teaching rules and just focus on age-appropriate sight words for now.

[sweetpea3829]

1st: I have found the web site http://www.morewords.com/ to be invaluable when trying to come up with word lists. Lets you use a * to represent any number of letters a - to represent a single letter and fill in any known letters and it will supply you a list of all words that satisfy your criteria.

 

 

Thanks for this...this will be very helpful!

[LizzyBee]

Spalding falls into the "OG" category, yes? Well, Spalding's rule is that s, f, l and z *may* be doubled at the end of a short word. It doesn't teach words which don't have those letters doubled as "exceptions." When a word is analyzed which doubles the final f, s, l or z, then the children write and repeat Rule 17. They don't discuss why other words don't double those letters at the end. That would make the whole process far to cumbersome to bear.

 

Spalding isn't OG. Some OG principles were eliminated and some modified to make it suitable for neurotypical kids who don't need a full blown OG program.

 

Explaining minute details is cumbersome... but it's necessary for many dyslexic students who don't make the inferences that NT kids do. :001_smile:

[Bmayes05]

Correct me if I’m mistaken, but according to Saxon phonics, the floss rule states that /f/, /l/, and /s/, after a short vowel are spelled by doubling the f, l, or s respectively.

[ScoutTN]

Zombie thread! Read the date before you post.😉