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Has anyone NOT liked Logic of English curriculum?

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#1 my2boysteacher

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:01 AM

I'm thinking of ordering LOE for oldest DS and eventually youngest DD, but before I order I'm wondering if anyone has purchased it and not liked it?
I have seen many positive reports here on the boards, but nothing negative.

#2 Hunter

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:12 AM

I'm thinking of ordering LOE for oldest DS and eventually youngest DD, but before I order I'm wondering if anyone has purchased it and not liked it?
I have seen many positive reports here on the boards, but nothing negative.


I do NOT recommend the handwriting, compared to the new Spalding 6th edition.

The curriculum is not finished and is incompatible to finish up with the Spalding or SWR Ayer's list.

#3 my2boysteacher

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:17 AM

I have seen a lot of your posts while doing searches on WRTR and LOE. They have been very helpful!
Why do you say it is incomplete?
If I use it with my oldest DS. it would be to help remediate some issues due to his dyslexia, so I wouldn't use the handwriting portion. With my 4 year old, I am still undecided if I want to teach her cursive or print first.

#4 Ellie

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:24 AM

If I use it with my oldest DS. it would be to help remediate some issues due to his dyslexia, so I wouldn't use the handwriting portion. With my 4 year old, I am still undecided if I want to teach her cursive or print first.

The "handwriting" is an integral part of the Spalding Method. The explicit instruction on forming letters helps dyslexic children overcome their directional issues. Also, Spalding involves all learning modalities: feeling how the phonograms and spelling words are written (kinestheric), while hearing the directions for writing and the sounds of the phonograms and spelling words (auditory), and seeing how letters and words are correctly written (visual), all at the same time, which is what really makes the difference between Spalding and other reading or spelling methods.

#5 mommymilkies

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:30 AM

Why is the handwriting not ok?

#6 my2boysteacher

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:43 AM

The "handwriting" is an integral part of the Spalding Method. The explicit instruction on forming letters helps dyslexic children overcome their directional issues. Also, Spalding involves all learning modalities: feeling how the phonograms and spelling words are written (kinestheric), while hearing the directions for writing and the sounds of the phonograms and spelling words (auditory), and seeing how letters and words are correctly written (visual), all at the same time, which is what really makes the difference between Spalding and other reading or spelling methods.



Sorry if I wasn't clear- I meant I wouldn't use the handwriting portion of LOE.
I think I will order WRTR 6 regardless, since Hunter has been raving about it. :)

#7 Ellie

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:50 AM

Sorry if I wasn't clear- I meant I wouldn't use the handwriting portion of LOE.
I think I will order WRTR 6 regardless, since Hunter has been raving about it. :)

OIC. :)

So, are you thinking of doing Spalding or of doing LOE?

#8 my2boysteacher

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:53 AM

OIC. :)

So, are you thinking of doing Spalding or of doing LOE?


I'm still undecided. I think I may order WRTR first and look through that because I really can't wrap my head around the Spalding method. I think seeing it will help me decide if it is something I could use. If not, I really like the look of LOE. :001_smile: I really like the look of the LOE phonogram cards, the way of marking the words and the games.

#9 momofabcd

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:46 AM

The curriculum is not finished and is incompatible to finish up with the Spalding or SWR Ayer's list.


I know you asked for those who have used it and don't like it. Hunter hasn't used it or held it in her hands. I completely disagree with the above comment. The LOE Essentials is meant for remedial purposes and is very thorough and complete. The author is in the process of producing material for k-6, that may be why she said it's incomplete. For your purposes LOE would be very complete. It is not necessarily incompatible with Spalding or SWR. If you were to move on to either of those afterwards for the word lists, you just analyze how you learned in LOE and all will be well. LOE is open and go and very easy to use. You would learn a ton.

#10 Hunter

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 01:25 PM

How many spelling words are covered in LOE? What grade level do those spelling words go up to? What is the suggestion for what to do next? I don't remember the exact answers to these questions, but do remember finding those answers to be entirely unacceptable to ME, and I'm assuming many others.

#11 MyLittleBears

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:17 PM

The LOE Essentials is meant for remedial purposes and is very thorough and complete. The author is in the process of producing material for k-6, that may be why she said it's incomplete. For your purposes LOE would be very complete. It is not necessarily incompatible with Spalding or SWR. If you were to move on to either of those afterwards for the word lists, you just analyze how you learned in LOE and all will be well. LOE is open and go and very easy to use. You would learn a ton.


:iagree:

And the handwriting part is really a non-issue. My oldest uses italic cursive and my middle child uses the cursive he learned from SWR's cursive first. FWIW, SWR teaches handwriting separately same as LOE.

ETA- I am not a LOE exclusivist. I happen to own TWTR and cards and have SWR's alpha list, plus a couple of levels of AAS and readers. It's the methodolgy I love. It is totally worth learning. LOE just gave me what I needed to fit me in my particular place and time. It is just so clearly written, open and go (big deal for me while we deal w/end of life issues of family members). We are most likely going to follow up LOE with Spalding.

If you really want to get a clear picture for the real flavor of LOE, I recommend watching the intro video on the website. They also have a forum where many of this forum's members have asked similar question. The Uncovering the LOE book is also excellent regardless of which program you choose. $13.60 on amazon I think.

Edited by MyLittleBears, 30 March 2012 - 03:56 PM.


#12 my2boysteacher

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:58 PM

I know you asked for those who have used it and don't like it. Hunter hasn't used it or held it in her hands. I completely disagree with the above comment. The LOE Essentials is meant for remedial purposes and is very thorough and complete. The author is in the process of producing material for k-6, that may be why she said it's incomplete. For your purposes LOE would be very complete. It is not necessarily incompatible with Spalding or SWR. If you were to move on to either of those afterwards for the word lists, you just analyze how you learned in LOE and all will be well. LOE is open and go and very easy to use. You would learn a ton.


Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I agree LOE may be just what I'm looking for with oldeset DS.

:iagree:

And the handwriting part is really a non-issue. My oldest uses italic cursive and my middle child uses the cursive he learned from SWR's cursive first. FWIW, SWR teaches handwriting separately same as LOE.

ETA- I am not a LOE exclusivist. I happen to own TWTR and cards and have SWR's alpha list, plus a couple of levels of AAS and readers. It's the methodolgy I love. It is totally worth learning. LOE just gave me what I needed to fit me in my particular place and time. It is just so clearly written, open and go (big deal for me while we deal w/end of life issues of family members). We are most likely going to follow up LOE with Spalding.

If you really want to get a clear picture for the real flavor of LOE, I recommend watching the intro video on the website. They also have a forum where many of this forum's members have asked similar question. The Uncovering the LOE is also excellent. $13.60 on amazon I think.


Yes, I really like that it is open-and-go. It seems very clear and easy to facilitate. I bought and have read 'Uncovering the LOE' and am very impressed with it. I also have a couple audio lectures from Denise Eides I need to listen to. Thanks everyone!

#13 lindsrae

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:59 PM

How many spelling words are covered in LOE? What grade level do those spelling words go up to? What is the suggestion for what to do next? I don't remember the exact answers to these questions, but do remember finding those answers to be entirely unacceptable to ME, and I'm assuming many others.

This is what is preventing me from jumping ship (the Phonics Road ship, that is) :)

My DD does not need remediation and knows the Spalding phonograms. I've read Unlocking the Logic of English, and I LOVE it, but if we switched to it I think I would be...what now. I commend Denise Eide's work, and I know you have to start somewhere, but her program probably won't work for me until my baby is ready for school. And even then, she may get older faster than the program can be written :)

But if it works for your kids, OP, certainly go for it! The idea of it looks fantastic to me and extremely tempting...

#14 Hunter

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 06:28 PM

There is a LOT I like about LOE. I just didn't feel the need to list those things in THIS thread, because of the title. When the great rush of used LOEs start hitting the market, when something else even shinier and brighter hits the market, I'll be snatching one up as a reference.

But the lack of an indexed Ayer's list to be able to reference for misspelled words, and the short list of words included in the lessons themselves, leaves me dumbfounded on how this will work well, in the long run, for remedial students :-0

If someone doesn't own MOH, they can still tell just by looking at the website that the curriculum is NOT finished. Neither MOH or LOE is finished. And LOE is not compatible with Spalding's indexed Ayer's list or any other resource that I know of. Please correct me if there is any new info on what to do the second year AFTER the currently available book is finished. At least MOH is compatible with other programs people can finish off with.

I'm very interested to see what everyone is doing for the year AFTER LOE. I'm going to be ALL ears.

#15 Joy at Home

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:17 PM

There is a LOT I like about LOE. I just didn't feel the need to list those things in THIS thread, because of the title. When the great rush of used LOEs start hitting the market, when something else even shinier and brighter hits the market, I'll be snatching one up as a reference.

But the lack of an indexed Ayer's list to be able to reference for misspelled words, and the short list of words included in the lessons themselves, leaves me dumbfounded on how this will work well, in the long run, for remedial students :-0

If someone doesn't own MOH, they can still tell just by looking at the website that the curriculum is NOT finished. Neither MOH or LOE is finished. And LOE is not compatible with Spalding's indexed Ayer's list or any other resource that I know of. Please correct me if there is any new info on what to do the second year AFTER the currently available book is finished. At least MOH is compatible with other programs people can finish off with.

I'm very interested to see what everyone is doing for the year AFTER LOE. I'm going to be ALL ears.



I plan on continuing with high frequency words and analyzing them for spelling as we do with LOE. The author has posted high frequency word lists on her site here http://www.logicofen...ency-word-lists

To say the program is not finished is not accurate. Though the author plans on coming out with other books (I thought I heard talk of grade level books in the future), the Essentials is intended as a stand alone resource. One can easily use the spelling rules and method to move on to any spelling lists.

Lisa

#16 MyLittleBears

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:34 PM

I plan on continuing with high frequency words and analyzing them for spelling as we do with LOE. The author has posted high frequency word lists on her site here http://www.logicofen...ency-word-lists

To say the program is not finished is not accurate. Though the author plans on coming out with other books (I thought I heard talk of grade level books in the future), the Essentials is intended as a stand alone resource. One can easily use the spelling rules and method to move on to any spelling lists.

Lisa


I agree with this. It *is* a very complete program. It teaches how to spell and decode 98% of all english words. In fact, I might even say that she seems to have found a way to eliminate even more exceptions to rules. I don't believe it has to take years and years to learn all of these phonograms and spelling rules. It can be done in 40 lessons and can be continued by the application of these tools to all words encountered. It is extremely easy to apply the tools from LOE and apply it to *any* words list, even the extended ayers list. Kids need to study spelling for years but it does not mean that the all the tools can't be learned right up front and then mastered through exposure. It is the same methodology, just a different approach.

#17 stm4him

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:53 PM

LOE is intended to cover all one would need for the main phonograms from what I understand. It does not cover the advanced phonograms but she is planning to write a word roots program to follow up LOE Essentials. She recommends English from the Roots Up in the mean time as well as following up with any spelling lists we deem appropriate, using LOE phonograms, markings, and rules to analyze them. Essentials can be used with kids as young as 5 up to an adult by adjusting the pacing and taking out the grammar lessons for the young ones. She is writing a grade level program as well but one doesn't need to do both. They are like two separate tracks. Also, the graded levels will incorporate reading comprehension and use real books as readers but many of us homeschoolers already use something else for reading comprehension. I use Veritas Press Literature guides.

I have not used my LOE yet b/c I just got it very recently and plan to start it in the fall. I like it because I can use it with my three oldest together even though they are at different levels. I like that it has the workbook already laid out. I like that it incorporates very thorough grammar which will prep them wonderfully for CC's Essentials in 4th-6th grade. I like that the words they'll be using in their grammar program are words they've worked with instead of words that are above or below their reading and spelling level. I love that it has dictation of sentences and phrases (which I have found to be enormously helpful for retention and application of the phonograms and spelling rules for my struggling learner and was something she never got with SWR). I love that it has a spelling journal and ideas like the spelling cards to really help it stick. I love that it is open and go and all laid out for me.

I have used SWR for 1 1/2 years. I've read through TWRTR. I own TATRAS and another book called Taking the Mystery Out of Spelling and Reading which is also a Spalding based method. I've used AAS 1-3 (and am currently using 2 and 3). I loved AAS but had to add in the grammar and was thinking that it would eventually get to be too much for me to have several levels of AAS and AAR going on all at once. I also didn't like that the key cards weren't sticking the way the SWR spelling rule cards were b/c they were more like fill in the blank answers instead of full sentences. I like that I can just use LOE and work with everyone together for an hour a day and get through it in a year. If they don't get it all they can cycle back through it the next year. When they do get it and just need lists to keep working on I'll probably just use Spelling Plus or TWRTR lists to continue to work on analyzing words and I will teach them all the advanced phonograms if the word roots program isn't out yet. I'm already doing Latin and Greek at home so I don't think they'll NEED that.

As far as handwriting goes I believe that TWRTR's manuscript method is best for starters. After that I want them learning cursive as quickly as possible and I am fine with them learning D'Nealian too (though not necessarily as a bridge to cursive and although I'd like them to learn how to do D'Nealian I will never require them to write that way unless it is for making pretty copywork. I would not require it ever for composition or dictation.) So I'm going to start my fourth child on TWRTR's manuscript in the fall and possibly remediate my third one this summer but he may be resentful of me reteaching manuscript to him. It may be a battle I don't want to fight.....

Hunter....have you seen LOE's brand new cursive workbook? How does it compare in your mind to the way TWRTR teaches cursive or Cursive First's method? Thanks for all your insight!!

#18 houseofkids&pets

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:54 AM

:bigear::lurk5::bigear:

#19 Hunter

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:35 AM

I plan on continuing with high frequency words and analyzing them for spelling as we do with LOE. The author has posted high frequency word lists on her site here http://www.logicofen...ency-word-lists

To say the program is not finished is not accurate. Though the author plans on coming out with other books (I thought I heard talk of grade level books in the future), the Essentials is intended as a stand alone resource. One can easily use the spelling rules and method to move on to any spelling lists.

Lisa


These word lists are not marked with the LOE marking system. Saying that YOU can apply the marking system on your own, is the height of abandonment. How can unmarked word lists be considered "finished"?

The LOE handwriting is better than MOST other handwriting curricula, but is merely adding a Spalding type script to an inferior font. Most of my life I have always been teaching special needs students, most of them 2E or ESL, so also being quite gifted, and feeling the full effects of how stuck they are by their language arts difficulties. My oldest son was "normal" and I have taught other "normal" children in day cares and Sunday schools over the years. Many normal children who don't require mastering ANYTHING, and can just successfully wing their way through life, would do fine with the D'Nealian style font and just abandoning spelling after LOE, or never even using the program at all, or any program for that matter.

The people who are gravitating to Spalding and LOE and all the other spin offs are usually teachers of students who have experienced failure, and are going to need LONG term support. For parents/teachers of normal children who are just wanting to use the newest and brightest, and don't really NEED a handwriting or spelling curriculum, then LOE will be fine. But for those with 2E students, needing the most precise handwriting model as possible, and long term spelling support with an indexed and marked spelling list, I canNOT recommend LOE.

I love LOEs strengths. I wish Spalding included LOE's strengths and I wish LOE included Spalding's strengths. But wishing a curriculum does something doesn't make it happen.

#20 atozmom

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 01:30 PM

I just received my copy today and honestly, I LOVE it so far. (sorry, I know you were asking for those that did not like it) For me, I love that everything is scripted out and that there is a workbook that goes right along with it. When we were using AAS I used to make my own workbook pages.

Also, I just saw today that Denise is offering a free download for her new Manuscript handwriting program for beta testing.



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