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Thomas Jefferson education


Hot Lava Mama
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I just read this book, and it was very interesting. I was wondering if anyone here meshes this type of education with WTM type of training? I have been doing the WTM way since my oldest was in K (he's in 7th now) and I want to get more of the TJE type of thing in our studies. (I don't think the kids read enough right now. I know WTM stresses that too, but it seems like TJE hits it kind of differently.)

 

If anyone does both with more than one child, how do you do it? Right now, I have 4 school age kids, and I think only the oldest 3 could do this. (they are in 7th, 5th & 2nd grade).

 

Does anyone have any advice or information on TJE?

 

Thanks

Hot Lava Mama

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I think it's not worthwhile at all. The guy who sells it is a bit of a huckster and he's mislead a lot of very earnest home schoolers who are really after a more SWB product. It's also worth noting that what he describes is absolutely nothing like any education that Thomas Jefferson would have had -- if you even wanted to raise your kid to be Thomas Jefferson. He did great things for the country but had personal problems.

 

I think these are worth reading:

http://whyidontdotjed.blogspot.ca/

http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/a-thomas-jefferson-education/

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I loaned out my TJE books and have been wanting to reread them.

 

I'm wondering how TJE differs from the Robinson Curriculum. TJE is expecting more of the parents? TJE is...I'm grasping for the words...less humble? And...I don't know? :-0 More aggressive? Sorry, I just can't put my finger on it, especially since I only skimmed a couple of the books a year ago.

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To me, the good things about the book are that parents need to set the example of self-education for their children. I think it's a good thing that my son sees me try to work my way through some Life Of Fred books (I'm trying to brush up on my math skills so that I'm not hopelessly lost when my kids are ready for high school). Parents do need to model a love of learning.

 

Also, I think reading classics are a great idea. They are classic for a reason.

 

The reasons people don't like it: DeMille has been called a con artist and a charlatan. His "doctorate" degree came from a diploma mill and he says he didn't know it was a diploma mill. The university he set up is unaccredited, so people are paying thousands of dollars and not getting a credentialed degree.

 

Plus the methodology is whackadoodle. DeMille's process is not how any of his great leaders received their education. Yes, Thomas Jefferson was mentored by George Wythe, but that was as an adult. As a child and teen, he had more of a classical education.

 

All that is a summary of what other people have said about it (I think). For me, I think it's a method of unschooling. I don't think that just reading Newton will give someone a good grasp of physics. There's so much more out there now.

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The Well Trained Mind seams do-able if you skimp on some things.

 

Robinson seems do-able.

 

A Thomas Jefferson Education is unrealistic.

The Teaching Science section says something to the effect of, "Copernicus, Galileo, Agassiz, Einstein. Anything else dumbs us down."

The Teaching Foreign Language sections says, "Do you want to learn Spanish? Read a great classic like Don Quiote in Spanish."

:confused:

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The Well Trained Mind seams do-able if you skimp on some things.

 

Robinson seems do-able.

 

A Thomas Jefferson Education is unrealistic.

The Teaching Science section says something to the effect of, "Copernicus, Galileo, Agassiz, Einstein. Anything else dumbs us down."

The Teaching Foreign Language sections says, "Do you want to learn Spanish? Read a great classic like Don Quiote in Spanish."

:confused:

 

I was shocked when I read this in the book. Granted, you're supposed to do it with a Spanish-English dictionary at your side, but still, what kid/teen (or adult for that matter) could learn usable Spanish this way?

 

I thought the premise of the whole idea sounded good... kind of a structured unschooling, but in reality, I don't see how 90% of the recommendations would actually work.

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This is so interesting, because it sounded so good in print! What are the drawbacks? I am really turning sour on this, now! I really appreciate all the wisdom of this board. The information is PRICELESS!

 

Thanks

Hot Lava Mama

 

If you read through the threads linked by the tags, you'll see all of my comments as well as the comments of others. :)

 

Here is a blog post I wrote:

 

http://classicalhouseoflearning.wordpress.com/2011/06/25/what-makes-a-good-educational-philosophy/

 

Basically, the method doesn't work. People spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours trying to do TJEd. It is an exercise in futility because there is hardly anything practical in the philosophy. My oldest is just about finished paying the price of our foray into TJEd. It has taken three years to get her up to grade level. :glare:

 

I live where there are a LOT of TJEd families. It's just not impressive in action because very few people come up with anything that actually results in educated children.

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I really appreciate it. I was dumbfounded on the math part. How could a child learn to multiply by reading a book? I knew that I couldn't do TJE 100% just because of that.

 

It seems to me the "good part" of TJE is the reading/discussion part of it. Reading good classics and talking about it. But, then again, I think that is what WTM basically says. I have been re-reading Teaching the Classics, so maybe I just need to work with incorporating that into my WTM approach.

 

Thanks SO much to everyone who responded and to the links. Very good reading!

 

Hot Lava Mama

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  • 2 months later...

I wanted to chime in to this thread even though its a few months old - because I can tell from some of the posts that TJED is not fully understood by most of the posters. And it would be a shame to deter people who have not yet read the book or principles for themselves.

 

I mesh TJED with a classical education and we are LOVING it.

 

I would encourage anyone to try and read the book objectively. Despite the mistakes that the author 'might' have made - the key principles are incredible stuff and EVERY homeschool would only benefit from applying these principles. It's incredibly difficult work - but some of the most rewarding ever.

 

If you view TJED not as a method but rather a set of principles that can be applied to whatever curriculum or homeschooling method you choose - THEN you will be on the road to understanding Leadership education a bit better.

 

Of course there are people who are "doing TJED" in a way that makes me lift my eyebrows - but the same can be said of some people who "do classical".

 

Go ahead and read the book and principles for yourselves with an open mind. Its awesome stuff. Really.

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How old are your children? How closely are you following TJE? How did you deal with science and foreign languages? Have you attended any of the seminars?

 

I wanted to chime in to this thread even though its a few months old - because I can tell from some of the posts that TJED is not fully understood by most of the posters. And it would be a shame to deter people who have not yet read the book or principlesfor themselves.

 

I mesh TJED with a classical education and we are LOVING it.

 

I would encourage anyone to try and read the book objectively. Despite the mistakes that the author 'might' have made - the key principles are incredible stuff and EVERY homeschool would only benefit from applying these principles. It's incredibly difficult work - but some of the most rewarding ever.

 

If you view TJED not as a method but rather a set of principles that can be applied to whatever curriculum or homeschooling method you choose - THEN you will be on the road to understanding Leadership education a bit better.

 

Of course there are people who are "doing TJED" in a way that makes me lift my eyebrows - but the same can be said of some people who "do classical".

 

Go ahead and read the book and principles for yourselves with an open mind. Its awesome stuff. Really.

Edited by nmoira
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This is so interesting, because it sounded so good in print! What are the drawbacks? I am really turning sour on this, now! I really appreciate all the wisdom of this board. The information is PRICELESS!

 

Thanks

Hot Lava Mama

 

Oliver DeMille is a professional con-man, of course he makes it "sound good."

 

Unfortunately he has damaged the educations and finances of many families who've fallen under his influence.

 

Run from this as fast as you can.

 

Bill

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I wanted to chime in to this thread even though its a few months old - because I can tell from some of the posts that TJED is not fully understood by most of the posters. And it would be a shame to deter people who have not yet read the book or principles for themselves.

 

I mesh TJED with a classical education and we are LOVING it.

 

I would encourage anyone to try and read the book objectively. Despite the mistakes that the author 'might' have made - the key principles are incredible stuff and EVERY homeschool would only benefit from applying these principles. It's incredibly difficult work - but some of the most rewarding ever.

 

If you view TJED not as a method but rather a set of principles that can be applied to whatever curriculum or homeschooling method you choose - THEN you will be on the road to understanding Leadership education a bit better.

 

Of course there are people who are "doing TJED" in a way that makes me lift my eyebrows - but the same can be said of some people who "do classical".

 

Go ahead and read the book and principles for yourselves with an open mind. Its awesome stuff. Really.

 

Momma2Luke, I'm excited to be able to ask someone who has found success with TJED this question:

 

One aspect of TJED's claim to fame is the belief that these methods will create amazing leaders in all sectors of society. Would you please share how your children have become leaders in your community because of your TJED methodology?

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Could you give more details? How

I wanted to chime in to this thread even though its a few months old - because I can tell from some of the posts that TJED is not fully understood by most of the posters. And it would be a shame to deter people who have not yet read the book or principles for themselves.

 

I mesh TJED with a classical education and we are LOVING it.

 

I would encourage anyone to try and read the book objectively. Despite the mistakes that the author 'might' have made - the key principles are incredible stuff and EVERY homeschool would only benefit from applying these principles. It's incredibly difficult work - but some of the most rewarding ever.

 

If you view TJED not as a method but rather a set of principles that can be applied to whatever curriculum or homeschooling method you choose - THEN you will be on the road to understanding Leadership education a bit better.

 

Of course there are people who are "doing TJED" in a way that makes me lift my eyebrows - but the same can be said of some people who "do classical".

 

Go ahead and read the book and principles for yourselves with an open mind. Its awesome stuff. Really.

 

I have only seen this work when people define the principles so broadly that they are nearly tautological. Take, "classics, not textbooks." The way DeMille seems to interpret this, it's downright absurd. Learning math from Newton and Spanish from Don Quixote? I doubt anyone has actually done this, least of all him. If you define "classic" as "any book that is useful and valuable to me," the principle becomes "Use books that are useful and valuable to you." Well, dur. Who would advocate using a valueless and useless book?

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I dont think many of the anti-TJed posters have actually read the books. If you look on the TJed website, they actually recommend different math curriculum. If I remember correctly LoF and Saxon are on the list. No where in the books does it say "do not use curriculum." I've read 2 of the books and am starting on Leadership Education. I plan to continue the use of classical curriculum and mesh it with TJed. The main point of it is to inspire your kids and plant seeds so they believe what they are doing is their own idea. For example, last Sat. morning when my DDs woke up I was reading Jane Eyre. I excitedly talked about the story line. They decided for their movie that day they wanted to watch Jane Eyre (they are still too young for it as a read aloud), and they spent the day playing "Jane Eyre". This plants a seed for them to grow from, and hopefully in a few years when it's their turn to read it they will want to because they already have good memories/feelings associated with it. The parent study has to take place when and where the children can be a part of it so they can see the benefit of it. Another example is that I took up drawing again so my kids can see how much practice, patience, and hard work go into making something worthwhile.

 

The focus of TJed is more on mentoring than anything. I think it is important to mention that mentoring involves pushing your mentee out of their comfort zone in order to grow. If the parent is sitting around all day waiting for their kid to be inspired, then they are not doing TJed. The kids are expected to do hard things.

 

My kids are still too young for me to say whether or not it has "worked", but I see how the method has made my 8yr old happier and more excited about learning. We have a monthly meeting where we discuss her subjects (that she chooses) and what she needs for the next month. Then I plan lessons and prepare her independent work. Then I schedule blocks of time and they choose what we do within that time. TJed works very well with WTM or CM.

 

In the Companion, Jeppson introduces the idea of adult classes. I adapted this idea to the needs of my 8yr old and it has been a HUGE hit. We started with a Personal Habits course that worked on basic skills like setting her alarm, managing the time it takes for morning and evening chores, and taking care of her personal hygiene. There is a positive consequence for completing each course. After they complete a certain combination of courses they are promoted within the family and receive a new title. My girls think this is the best thing that ever happened to them. Some of the courses I made for them are Junior Chores, Household Safety, Baking, Cooking, Grocery Shopping, Sewing, and Adult Chores. It should take several years to complete all that. The goal is for the child to have all those skills before high school age so they can focus on their studies.

 

My advice would be to read the books objectively and take what is of worth to you and disregard what is not. I was persuaded by these boards to NOT read TJed. I was even trying to convince a friend not to read it based on some posts by those who have posted in this thread. Then one day while I was at my friend's house I picked up the book and started paging through. I found a lot of good info. I borrowed TJed and TJed Companion, and I'm so glad I did! Some of the ideas I gleaned from the philosophy have been great for us. I don't personally know anything about the character of the author, but the content is sound. Use common sense people. TJed is not extreme unschooling, LOL.

Edited by Superfly
typos from dyslexia!
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I dont think many of the anti-TJed posters have actually read the books.
I have read the first book. I was struck by how many times the word "leader" and "leadership" were used, and also by how bereft it is of practical advice as to how to attain this state. Simply repeating the words like a mantra may be pleasant, but it isn't enough.
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I'm intentionally not reading the other replies because I know there are a number of people on the board who love to bash TJEd. I'll offer my take:

 

I do not "follow" anyone else's philosophy or methodology of education. I read, listen to talks, talk to people, and glean ideas from many sources. WTM has been one of those sources, and so have the TJEd books. If something in the TJEd book is speaking to you, by all means make use of it--and don't worry about somehow adopting or blending in one whole philosophy with another. Nor do you need to reject an entire philosophy or methodology because some part does not feel right to you (there are parts of every education or homeschooling book I have ever read that I disagree with or do not think is right for my family).

 

Cheerfully,

Sarah

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I wanted to chime in to this thread even though its a few months old - because I can tell from some of the posts that TJED is not fully understood by most of the posters. And it would be a shame to deter people who have not yet read the book or principles for themselves.

 

I mesh TJED with a classical education and we are LOVING it.

 

I would encourage anyone to try and read the book objectively. Despite the mistakes that the author 'might' have made - the key principles are incredible stuff and EVERY homeschool would only benefit from applying these principles. It's incredibly difficult work - but some of the most rewarding ever.

 

If you view TJED not as a method but rather a set of principles that can be applied to whatever curriculum or homeschooling method you choose - THEN you will be on the road to understanding Leadership education a bit better.

 

Of course there are people who are "doing TJED" in a way that makes me lift my eyebrows - but the same can be said of some people who "do classical".

 

Go ahead and read the book and principles for yourselves with an open mind. Its awesome stuff. Really.

 

I read the books, attended seminars, listened to lectures, etc. I know exactly what I am talking about. I was a hardcore TJEder at one time. ;)

 

WRT the principles (the Keys), my critique of them is linked in the post quoted below.

 

If you read through the threads linked by the tags, you'll see all of my comments as well as the comments of others. :)

 

Here is a blog post I wrote:

 

http://classicalhouseoflearning.wordpress.com/2011/06/25/what-makes-a-good-educational-philosophy/

 

Basically, the method doesn't work. People spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours trying to do TJEd. It is an exercise in futility because there is hardly anything practical in the philosophy. My oldest is just about finished paying the price of our foray into TJEd. It has taken three years to get her up to grade level. :glare:

 

I live where there are a LOT of TJEd families. It's just not impressive in action because very few people come up with anything that actually results in educated children.

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I dont think many of the anti-TJed posters have actually read the books. If you look on the TJed website, they actually recommend different math curriculum. If I remember correctly LoF and Saxon are on the list. No where in the books does it say "do not use curriculum." I've read 2 of the books and am starting on Leadership Education. I plan to continue the use of classical curriculum and mesh it with TJed. The main point of it is to inspire your kids and plant seeds so they believe what they are doing is their own idea. For example, last Sat. morning when my DDs woke up I was reading Jane Eyre. I excitedly talked about the story line. They decided for their movie that day they wanted to watch Jane Eyre (they are still too young for it as a read aloud), and they spent the day playing "Jane Eyre". This plants a seed for them to grow from, and hopefully in a few years when it's their turn to read it they will want to because they already have good memories/feelings associated with it. The parent study has to take place when and where the children can be a part of it so they can see the benefit of it. Another example is that I took up drawing again so my kids can see how much practice, patience, and hard work go into making something worthwhile.

 

The focus of TJed is more on mentoring than anything. I think it is important to mention that mentoring involves pushing your mentee out of their comfort zone in order to grow. If the parent is sitting around all day waiting for their kid to be inspired, then they are not doing TJed. The kids are expected to do hard things.

 

My kids are still too young for me to say whether or not it has "worked", but I see how the method has made my 8yr old happier and more excited about learning. We have a monthly meeting where we discuss her subjects (that she chooses) and what she needs for the next month. Then I plan lessons and prepare her independent work. Then I schedule blocks of time and they choose what we do within that time. TJed works very well with WTM or CM.

 

In the Companion, Jeppson introduces the idea of adult classes. I adapted this idea to the needs of my 8yr old and it has been a HUGE hit. We started with a Personal Habits course that worked on basic skills like setting her alarm, managing the time it takes for morning and evening chores, and taking care of her personal hygiene. There is a positive consequence for completing each course. After they complete a certain combination of courses they are promoted within the family and receive a new title. My girls think this is the best thing that ever happened to them. Some of the courses I made for them are Junior Chores, Household Safety, Baking, Cooking, Grocery Shopping, Sewing, and Adult Chores. It should take several years to complete all that. The goal is for the child to have all those skills before high school age so they can focus on their studies.

 

My advice would be to read the books objectively and take what is of worth to you and disregard what is not. I was persuaded by these boards to NOT read TJed. I was even trying to convince a friend not to read it based on some posts by those who have posted in this thread. Then one day while I was at my friend's house I picked up the book and started paging through. I found a lot of good info. I borrowed TJed and TJed Companion, and I'm so glad I did! Some of the ideas I gleaned from the philosophy have been great for us. I don't personally know anything about the character of the author, but the content is sound. Use common sense people. TJed is not extreme unschooling, LOL.

 

I started TJEd a decade ago. Life of Fred, Saxon, and other math programs were definitely NOT on the list. It was strictly classics. Stop and do the math bits you encounter in stories. Bake cookies. Read Newton. TJEd has changed the definition of classics in more recent years to basically mean anything you might want it to mean (a person, a math textbook--oops, that violates the no textbook rule, etc.). It's silly and merely illustrates that DeMille realizes that his method as originally outlined simply does not work. Only he wants to save face about it. ;)

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I started TJEd a decade ago. Life of Fred, Saxon, and other math programs were definitely NOT on the list. It was strictly classics. Stop and do the math bits you encounter in stories. Bake cookies. Read Newton. TJEd has changed the definition of classics in more recent years to basically mean anything you might want it to mean (a person, a math textbook--oops, that violates the no textbook rule, etc.). It's silly and merely illustrates that DeMille realizes that his method as originally outlined simply does not work. Only he wants to save face about it. ;)

 

I read the Keys to mean focus on classics, not textbooks. Keep your focus on this not that, but not to exclude the other. That is unfortunate that the original was not balanced. I can see how that would create some huge problems. I went and read your blog so I can see where you are coming from. I don't think the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater though. I just take what I love most about TJed, WTM, LCC, and CM, then I structure our home school accordingly.

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There are a lot of TJed ers around here, too. I find most of them to be kind of superior in their attitude toward anyone else. Also, most of them are organized in kind of an MLM system, where you have to pay yearly to "re-certify" as an official TJed person. I am attracted somewhat to some of the tenants of DeMille's book (classics, learning from the most knowledgeable, etc), but the application of it and the rigid adherence to it creeps me out.

 

I am definitely an eclectic, classical-leaning homeschooler, and I don't lean much toward the child-led, almost close to unschooling type of homeschooler. That said, I have a friend who leans that way with good results, so. . . YMMV

 

Becky

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I dont think many of the anti-TJed posters have actually read the books.

 

Read the book. Attended seminars. Heard DeMille in person. My sister used TJEd in her homeschool. This past year my teens participated in a year long class, Shakespeare Conquest. I still don't get it. Sorry.

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I dont think many of the anti-TJed posters have actually read the books. If you look on the TJed website, they actually recommend different math curriculum. If I remember correctly LoF and Saxon are on the list. No where in the books does it say "do not use curriculum." I've read 2 of the books and am starting on Leadership Education. I plan to continue the use of classical curriculum and mesh it with TJed. The main point of it is to inspire your kids and plant seeds so they believe what they are doing is their own idea. For example, last Sat. morning when my DDs woke up I was reading Jane Eyre. I excitedly talked about the story line. They decided for their movie that day they wanted to watch Jane Eyre (they are still too young for it as a read aloud), and they spent the day playing "Jane Eyre". This plants a seed for them to grow from, and hopefully in a few years when it's their turn to read it they will want to because they already have good memories/feelings associated with it. The parent study has to take place when and where the children can be a part of it so they can see the benefit of it. Another example is that I took up drawing again so my kids can see how much practice, patience, and hard work go into making something worthwhile.

 

The focus of TJed is more on mentoring than anything. I think it is important to mention that mentoring involves pushing your mentee out of their comfort zone in order to grow. If the parent is sitting around all day waiting for their kid to be inspired, then they are not doing TJed. The kids are expected to do hard things.

 

My kids are still too young for me to say whether or not it has "worked", but I see how the method has made my 8yr old happier and more excited about learning. We have a monthly meeting where we discuss her subjects (that she chooses) and what she needs for the next month. Then I plan lessons and prepare her independent work. Then I schedule blocks of time and they choose what we do within that time. TJed works very well with WTM or CM.

 

In the Companion, Jeppson introduces the idea of adult classes. I adapted this idea to the needs of my 8yr old and it has been a HUGE hit. We started with a Personal Habits course that worked on basic skills like setting her alarm, managing the time it takes for morning and evening chores, and taking care of her personal hygiene. There is a positive consequence for completing each course. After they complete a certain combination of courses they are promoted within the family and receive a new title. My girls think this is the best thing that ever happened to them. Some of the courses I made for them are Junior Chores, Household Safety, Baking, Cooking, Grocery Shopping, Sewing, and Adult Chores. It should take several years to complete all that. The goal is for the child to have all those skills before high school age so they can focus on their studies.

 

My advice would be to read the books objectively and take what is of worth to you and disregard what is not. I was persuaded by these boards to NOT read TJed. I was even trying to convince a friend not to read it based on some posts by those who have posted in this thread. Then one day while I was at my friend's house I picked up the book and started paging through. I found a lot of good info. I borrowed TJed and TJed Companion, and I'm so glad I did! Some of the ideas I gleaned from the philosophy have been great for us. I don't personally know anything about the character of the author, but the content is sound. Use common sense people. TJed is not extreme unschooling, LOL.

 

I have read the first book. I thought the philosophy sounded nice, but it gave very little practical advice on how to do it. My friend that recommended it to me said to read the second one; that was the one with the practical advice. I think it was called Leadership Education or something. Anyway, I read that one too and don't remember any practical advice so far as schooling goes. So glad I had read the WTM first as it offered both philosophy and a how to guide for those interested.

 

Also, so far as the math and curricula go, here's a quote from it

 

"In a seminar, right about now I would likely be hearing the question again: "But how do I actually do this?" Almost every time people ask this specific question, they are either happy with the process and just want to improve, or they are struggling with the process because they aren’t personally reading the classics. Consider a typical dialogue: "

"But how do I actually do it?"

"How are you doing it now?"

"Well, he reads lots of books, many of them classics."

"Do you read them too?"

"Well, some of them."

"Okay, which ones have you read this month?"

The question is usually followed by a nervous silence, then:

"Okay, I know the classics thing. But how do we really make this work?"

"You read the classic. Your student reads the classic. You discuss it. He writes a report on it and you discuss it together. He gives an oral report to the class or family and you discuss that. You get other classmates or family members to read it and you meet for a group discussion. But of course none or this works unless you read it."

"But what about things like math?"

"Exactly the same. I assume you are asking me because a student of yours is struggling with math, right?"

"Right. He reads classics and lots of things but I can’t get him to read math classics."

"What was the last math classic or textbook that you read?"

"Uh..."

Almost nobody has an answer for this. If you haven’t read math classics, it’s almost impossible to teach math through the classics." A Thomas Jefferson Education, p.72

 

That is definitely him saying you don't need a textbook to teach math. You need to do everything he says in order for the whole thing to work.

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There are a lot of TJed ers around here, too. I find most of them to be kind of superior in their attitude toward anyone else. Also, most of them are organized in kind of an MLM system, where you have to pay yearly to "re-certify" as an official TJed person. I am attracted somewhat to some of the tenants of DeMille's book (classics, learning from the most knowledgeable, etc), but the application of it and the rigid adherence to it creeps me out.

 

I am definitely an eclectic, classical-leaning homeschooler, and I don't lean much toward the child-led, almost close to unschooling type of homeschooler. That said, I have a friend who leans that way with good results, so. . . YMMV

 

Becky

 

 

This aspect always intrigues me--WHY do people feel they need to adhere rigidly to anyone's system? Why would you feel a need to get "certified" in this or any system to teach your children at home? I agree with you that there is a sense of almost evangelical "this is the one true way to educate" zeal in the TJEd books/community, and I would caution anyone against buying into that.

 

Maybe I'm just not naturally a follower, though, because it never once occurred to me to adopt an entire system just because someone said I should:D I have happily read the TJEd books and attended events and talked with people and feel that I have gleaned a lot of great insights and inspiration. And I have happily ignored whatever aspects didn't seem right or applicable to me. To be honest, I think that's exactly what any successful homeschooling parent has to do.

 

So if you want my advice:

 

Don't do TJEd--isn't the whole point of homeschooling that you get to tailor your family's education to their needs? Why in the world would you try to rigidly implement someone else's system just because they tell you it's the right way??? Surely we're all mature enough to realize that great men and women have come out of all kinds of different educational experiences--there is no single right way to educate. BUT--where there is good to be found, take hold of the good; rejecting a part does not mean we have to reject the whole. There are some powerful ideas coming out of the TJEd community, and some of them may be just what you or your child need. We each have both the right and the responsibility to discern and judge for ourselves what is beneficial to our family and what is not.

 

Sarah

http://growingwisely.com/

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BUT--where there is good to be found, take hold of the good; rejecting a part does not mean we have to reject the whole. There are some powerful ideas coming out of the TJEd community, and some of them may be just what you or your child need. We each have both the right and the responsibility to discern and judge for ourselves what is beneficial to our family and what is not.
But what is coming out of TJE that is powerful and good and unique to TJE? Why should one pay for books and books and seminars to be let in on the secrets to the one true way when authors of other systems (oooh, say WTM) lay it all out on the line?

 

Yes there's a sense of "evangelical zeal" among adherents (and even many dabblers), and it shows: When I see "rebuttals" to criticisms of TJE, they're almost always along the line of, "Well, you just don't understand," rather than facts, figures, real-life examples of leaders and leadership produced or other educational successes that have been inspired by the program, etc. "You don't understand," is a universal first-line defense of followers taking it on faith. If I don't understand, convince me. The issue of DeMille's aside, I have serious problems with the educational methodology he's selling.

 

Oh, and success stories involving five- and six-year-olds don't count as long term successes. :tongue_smilie:

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But what is coming out of TJE that is powerful and good and unique to TJE? Why should one pay for books and books and seminars to be let in on the secrets to the one true way when authors of other systems (oooh, say WTM) lay it all out on the line?

 

Yes there's a sense of "evangelical zeal" among adherents (and even many dabblers), and it shows: When I see "rebuttals" to criticisms of TJE, they're almost always along the line of, "Well, you just don't understand," rather than facts, figures, real-life examples of leaders and leadership produced or other educational successes that have been inspired by the program, etc. "You don't understand," is a universal first-line defense of followers taking it on faith. If I don't understand, convince me. The issue of DeMille's aside, I have serious problems with the educational methodology he's selling.

 

Oh, and success stories involving five- and six-year-olds don't count as long term successes. :tongue_smilie:

 

I would say anyone who feels WTM lays out everything they need would certainly have no need to pay for other books and seminars! WTM definitely does not lay out everything my family needs, nor am I the type who could ever be content to just follow one person's recommendations:)

 

Pulling out specifics ideas I found influential isn't easy at this point; I have read dozens of books on education and homeschooling--I spent 4 or 5 years just reading, studying, attending workshops, listening to webinars, etc. because I felt a strong need to develop a personal educational philosophy and roadmap. I used to have shelves of books on those topics--and when I reached a point where I felt comfortable with my own philosophy I gave almost all of the books away (including the TJEd books). Now the only homeschooling books on my shelf are WTM, LCC, a Charlotte Mason book (can't remember which one), and Debra Bell's Ultimate Guide to Homeschooling--and I kept those more for the resource recommendations than anything else.

 

Some principles from TJEd that spoke to me included 1) academics should not be the primary emphasis in a child's early years; 2) teens can and should be self-directed learners, the best learning is internally driven; 3) mentors are important (especially real-life mentors). I wouldn't say any of those ideas are unique to TJEd, but it is one source (and have you picked up that I like to study multiple sources?) It was also a TJEd speaker who re-introduced me to the Arbinger Institute, especially the Parenting Pyramid and the idea of spending most of our time helping things go right rather than reacting when things go wrong.

 

My primary disagreement with TJEd philosophy is the idea that requiring academics (especially for anyone under 12) will kill a love of learning. I think helping children develop a love of learning has a lot more to do with the intellectual and educational environment of the home and attitude of other family members (parents!) than with whether or not a child is required to study something. And I don't think it is reasonable to expect children to learn everything they need just because they want to--it usually takes some form of outside incentive when the work is hard.

 

I do know some families of teenagers who feel that their homeschool has been revitalized by TJEd ideas and are finding their students to be studying harder and more enthusiastically. One friend who is heavily involved in the TJEd community has a son on scholarship at a large university. She largely credits TJEd with his success, with the exception that she did make him study math every day! Now if your definition of success is the Ivy League, you may not find it--I don't get the impression that that is the goal of most families who embrace the TJEd philosophy (although I remember listening to a talk from one woman who I think was and Ivy educated lawyer, but her version of TJEd was way more academic than most; that's partly why I say I find inspiration in the TJEd community, not specifically that I find O. DeMille inspiring--there's a pretty diverse group that has grown up around this philosophy and the range of ideas and methods of implementation are equally diverse). Sorry for the preposterously long sentence!

 

It all comes back to what I've said before: if something resonates with you, run with it--and if it doesn't, let it go.

 

--Sarah

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I would say anyone who feels WTM lays out everything they need would certainly have no need to pay for other books and seminars! WTM definitely does not lay out everything my family needs, nor am I the type who could ever be content to just follow one person's recommendations:)
That wasn't quite what I meant. Both philosophy and practical methodolgy are made explicit in TWTM book, and there's a fair bit of flexibility built in. There's so much more to it than repetition of the phrases "well educated" and "read the classics." Even without the curriculum recommendations, it still gives a good idea of how to do the program without having to buy more books and attend seminars.

 

Pulling out specifics ideas I found influential isn't easy at this point; I have read dozens of books on education and homeschooling--I spent 4 or 5 years just reading, studying, attending workshops, listening to webinars, etc. because I felt a strong need to develop a personal educational philosophy and roadmap. I used to have shelves of books on those topics--and when I reached a point where I felt comfortable with my own philosophy I gave almost all of the books away (including the TJEd books). Now the only homeschooling books on my shelf are WTM, LCC, a Charlotte Mason book (can't remember which one), and Debra Bell's Ultimate Guide to Homeschooling--and I kept those more for the resource recommendations than anything else.
The book that's had the greatest influence on our homeschool is Postman's The End of Education.

 

Some principles from TJEd that spoke to me included 1) academics should not be the primary emphasis in a child's early years; 2) teens can and should be self-directed learners, the best learning is internally driven; 3) mentors are important (especially real-life mentors). I wouldn't say any of those ideas are unique to TJEd, but it is one source (and have you picked up that I like to study multiple sources?)
These are very general principles for which practical application can vary widely. I do, however, strongly agree that mentorship can be critical for teens. It is unfortunately not something that receives enough attention outside the world of the highly gifted.

 

I do know some families of teenagers who feel that their homeschool has been revitalized by TJEd ideas and are finding their students to be studying harder and more enthusiastically. One friend who is heavily involved in the TJEd community has a son on scholarship at a large university. She largely credits TJEd with his success, with the exception that she did make him study math every day! Now if your definition of success is the Ivy League, you may not find it--I don't get the impression that that is the goal of most families who embrace the TJEd philosophy (although I remember listening to a talk from one woman who I think was and Ivy educated lawyer, but her version of TJEd was way more academic than most; that's partly why I say I find inspiration in the TJEd community, not specifically that I find O. DeMille inspiring--there's a pretty diverse group that has grown up around this philosophy and the range of ideas and methods of implementation are equally diverse). Sorry for the preposterously long sentence!
The same is true of WTM. However, while WTM talks about educating children (and WEM teens/adults), TJE makes very specific claims about the kind of person, a Leader, its method can produce.

 

It all comes back to what I've said before: if something resonates with you, run with it--and if it doesn't, let it go.
But some people are looking for a single program to follow, and have neither the time or the inclination to spend years developing their own educational philosophy. I believe a program like WTM has enough built-in flexibility that it can work with many children as written; and conversely, that it will permanently damage few. I have no such confidence in TJE as prescribed by DeMille. True, we need not use any program precisely as written, instead taking rather this or that element and combining it with other approaches; but we must also be able to judge a program overall solely on its own merits, and this is what is being done in this thread. Would you recommend TJE to someone looking for a roadmap?
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That wasn't quite what I meant. Both philosophy and practical methodolgy are made explicit in TWTM book, and there's a fair bit of flexibility built in. There's so much more to it than repetition of the phrases "well educated" and "read the classics." Even without the curriculum recommendations, it still gives a good idea of how to do the program without having to buy more books and attend seminars.

 

I think WTM is a very different kind of book; while the philosophy is outlined at the beginning most of the book is geared towards practical application, while the original TJEd book was more an outline of a philosophy of education. Sometimes open-endedness isn't a bad thing, but most of us do want more specific examples of application. Diann Jeppson is one of those who stepped in with ideas for specific application (as it works in her home) for TJEd.

 

The book that's had the greatest influence on our homeschool is Postman's The End of Education.
Haven't read that one yet, thanks for the recommendation. But does The End of Education lay out a specific plan you could implement without needing other books or seminars to flesh things out?

 

These are very general principles for which practical application can vary widely. I do, however, strongly agree that mentorship can be critical for teens. It is unfortunately not something that receives enough attention outside the world of the highly gifted.

 

The same is true of WTM. However, while WTM talks about educating children (and WEM teens/adults), TJE makes very specific claims about the kind of person, a Leader, its method can produce.

Yes, and I see no reason to believe the claim--it seems to me that TJEd is trying to produce independent thinkers, but leadership involves much more.

 

 

 

But some people are looking for a single program to follow, and have neither the time or the inclination to spend years developing their own educational philosophy. I believe a program like WTM has enough built-in flexibility that it can work with many children as written; and conversely, that it will permanently damage few.

 

Although I have heard more than one person say trying to follow WTM too closely was a formula for burn-out. I personally think the emphasis on formal academics in the early years is unnecessary and potentially harmful--one thing I noticed when I read Dorothy Sayers' "The Lost Tools of Learning" is that, while SWB credits her with the association of the trivium with stages, Bauer's adaptation pushes the "grammar stage" a full four years earlier than does Sayers' model and stretches out all the other stages--apparently to make them fit our traditional k-12 model of education. Here is Sayers' outline of her educational timeframe:

 

"The scope of Rhetoric depends also on whether the pupil is to be turned out into the world at the age of 16 or whether he is to proceed to the university. Since, really, Rhetoric should be taken at about 14, the first category of pupil should study Grammar from about 9 to 11, and Dialectic from 12 to 14; his last two school years would then be devoted to Rhetoric, which, in this case, would be of a fairly specialized and vocational kind, suiting him to enter immediately upon some practical career. A pupil of the second category would finish his Dialectical course in his preparatory school, and take Rhetoric during his first two years at his public school. At 16, he would be ready to start upon those "subjects" which are proposed for his later study at the university: and this part of his education will correspond to the mediaeval Quadrivium. What this amounts to is that the ordinary pupil, whose formal education ends at 16, will take the Trivium only; whereas scholars will take both the Trivium and the Quadrivium."

 

 

I have no such confidence in TJE as prescribed by DeMille. True, we need not use any program precisely as written, instead taking rather this or that element and combining it with other approaches; but we must also be able to judge a program overall solely on its own merits, and this is what is being done in this thread. Would you recommend TJE to someone looking for a roadmap?

 

No I would not. I'm much more likely to recommend WTM or some of the Charlotte Mason materials to someone starting out homeschooling and wanting an idea of how it can work. But I have seen more than once on this board someone who is a seasoned homeschooler (and presumably willing and able to think for themselves about what to accept and what to reject) ask about TJEd, only to receive the response that they shouldn't even look at it. I disagree. I understand that some people bought into TJEd too much and feel they got burned, but most of the people I personally know who have been exposed to the philosophy don't feel a need to follow blindly or use those methods exclusively. I don't think black and white responses are the best, and have tried to bring a more moderate point of view to the discussion.

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No I would not. I'm much more likely to recommend WTM or some of the Charlotte Mason materials to someone starting out homeschooling and wanting an idea of how it can work. But I have seen more than once on this board someone who is a seasoned homeschooler (and presumably willing and able to think for themselves about what to accept and what to reject) ask about TJEd, only to receive the response that they shouldn't even look at it. I disagree. I understand that some people bought into TJEd too much and feel they got burned, but most of the people I personally know who have been exposed to the philosophy don't feel a need to follow blindly or use those methods exclusively. I don't think black and white responses are the best, and have tried to bring a more moderate point of view to the discussion.

 

Agreed - TJED is definitely not what I would recommend as a "roadmap". The book IS more of a philosophical outline. Comparing it to WTM doesn't even make sense.

 

Thegardener - I've really appreciated your attempts to bring a more moderate view of TJED to the table. Thank you. I've read all of the negative hype written about TJED and I've read the anti-TJED blog and yet I still feel strongly about its great value in our homeschool, as an underpinning support structure to our classical style.

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The author of The Well-Trained Mind has a doctoral degree and a teaching position at a highly respected University.

 

In contrast, Oliver DeMille has claimed multiple advanced degrees from diploma-mills that he claimed not to know were phony. How is that possible? Then he sets up his own phony "University" and moves the fraud forward.

 

DeMille is a con-man. Efforts to make TJE appear respectable are unwarranted. His is a multi-level marketing scheme designed to separate people from their money, and in the process of his swindles he has caused tremendous harm to the education of children.

 

Bill

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Haven't read that one yet, thanks for the recommendation. But does The End of Education lay out a specific plan you could implement without needing other books or seminars to flesh things out?
:D It's not a homeschooling book, and does not purport to be. It can, however, be purchased new outright for less than $10 and doesn't require the spending of additional monies to unlock its secrets. It's more for those developing an educational philosophy. ;)

 

ETA: My beef with TJE isn't that there's no roadmap, but rather that its roadmap is faulty and vague. It does claim to be a method, not just a philosophy.

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Agreed - TJED is definitely not what I would recommend as a "roadmap". The book IS more of a philosophical outline. Comparing it to WTM doesn't even make sense.
You didn't answer any of the questions put to you above. ;)
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The author of The Well-Trained Mind has a doctoral degree and a teaching position at a highly respected University.

 

In contrast, Oliver DeMille has claimed multiple advanced degrees from diploma-mills that he claimed not to know were phony. How is that possible? Then he sets up his own phony "University" and moves the fraud forward.

 

DeMille is a con-man. Efforts to make TJE appear respectable are unwarranted. His is a multi-level marketing scheme designed to separate people from their money, and in the process of his swindles he has caused tremendous harm to the education of children.

 

Bill

 

I don't agree with your assessment of DeMille's character and intentions. I have never met him or even heard him speak, but from what I have read I'm more inclined to think he was naive than ill-intentioned in believing an unconventional diploma would be acceptable. In any case I really don't think that DeMille is the driving force behind the TJEd movement at this time, and I do not find attacks on his character to be relevant to the discussion of whether or not there are valuable and valid ideas coming out of that community. It seems to me that DeMille had a vision of a type of education very different from the typical industrial model system, he actively advocated for that model, and it has since be picked up, modified and expanded by a number of other people. I personally find the ideas and discussions going on within the TJEd community to be interesting and relevant, and while I disagree with at least as many of the ideas as I agree with, I find that true in any vibrant community--including this one! It is not so very different than the neo-classical movement sparked by Dorothy Sayers. Sayers was an intelligent, educated woman but certainly did not have a background in child development and education, yet her vision has been the inspiration behind an entire educational movement, of which SWB is a part. The significance and relevance of an idea does not necessarily depend upon credentials and background.

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As a hardcore TJEder turned (ecclectic) WTMer, I really don't see anything valuable in TJEd that isn't in other, better homeschool philosophies.

 

When we started TJEd, I lived near Diann Jeppson. She is a very nice woman. I took a class from her on how to practically apply TJEd in our homeschool. My oldest child was in preschool. Most people in the class had been attempting to do TJEd for years and had children much older than mine (late elementary through high school). At the time I bought the hype of TJEd, but even then I was a little concerned that these experienced TJEders felt a need for this class. During the course of the class we each developed a master educational plan for our families that listed topics and resources we intended to introduce to our children. That helped somewhat, but we were all reinventing the wheel. When I read TWTM, I realized that it did a better job laying out the plan that I had attempted to create on my own.

 

There are a number of consultants who will help you, for a fee, figure out how to implement TJEd in your home. That, combined with all the various seminars and lectures and books you can buy, makes TJEd feel like a sleezy operation. As a supporter I thought that this next resource would be the final missing piece I needed to make it work. It inevitably would not be and I'd go for yet another (paid) resource. Pursuing TJEd was such a huge waste of time and money.

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I don't agree with your assessment of DeMille's character and intentions. I have never met him or even heard him speak, but from what I have read I'm more inclined to think he was naive than ill-intentioned in believing an unconventional diploma would be acceptable.

 

His were not "unconventional" degrees. They were 100% phony degrees from diploma-mills. It strains credulity to think anyone would consider them "acceptable" for any purpose other than fraud. He tried to pass these "degrees" as something meaningful and when caught out claimed be be unaware.

 

He is not credible.

 

In any case I really don't think that DeMille is the driving force behind the TJEd movement at this time, and I do not find attacks on his character to be relevant to the discussion of whether or not there are valuable and valid ideas coming out of that community.

 

DeMille is the leading figure in TJE. His character is relevant given he poses his program as one that supposedly "character based."

 

What is coming out of TJE is educational failure and a neglect of children's educations. This is not a program that is a success, except as a money-making tool for some.

 

It seems to me that DeMille had a vision of a type of education very different from the typical industrial model system, he actively advocated for that model, and it has since be picked up, modified and expanded by a number of other people.

 

Translation: In the typical "industrial model system" (read: in major universities) professors have genuine advanced degrees from acredited academic institutions in the subjects they teach. In TJE-land no one needs a degree to be a "mentor" at his phony college.

 

That is a very different model.

 

 

The significance and relevance of an idea does not necessarily depend upon credentials and background.

 

If credentials are irrelevant and insignificant then why did Oliver DeMille bother to present phony degrees to give the (false) impression that he had an academic background (that he didn't actually have) in the first place? One can't have it both ways.

 

Bill

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You didn't answer any of the questions put to you above. ;)

 

Sigh.... no - I didn't because asking me how I handle specific areas of my sons education after I just said that I view TJED as more of a set of loose principles that can be applied to any curriculum or homeschooling "method" tells me that we are totally different wavelengths as to our respective understanding of TJED.

 

But I will say that I spend a considerable amount of time and effort working on the 7 Keys. And I try to keep them in mind for any homeschooling decision I make. I've seen first hand how powerful they can be. So in this respect you can say that I follow TJED quite closely. I spend a considerable amount of time working on Key 3, for example, because I've seen the difference in my son when he's INSPIRED to work on something versus the times he's done so simply because he was required to. It is exceedingly difficult to inspire a child who thinks they hate a subject to WANT to do it.. but the time I've spent on this key has paid back in dividends - I have grown exponentially as a mentor (and still have miles and miles to go and grow!!!) and my son has reaped the benefits.

 

I don't know, the more I study TJED concepts and figure out how to fit them into my classical method and curriculum, the MORE I can see how brilliant they are. I can even begin to see how I would apply TJED to my son's education (indeed to our lifestyle) if he were to be school in the public school system (a very real possibility for us in the future).

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As a hardcore TJEder turned (ecclectic) WTMer, I really don't see anything valuable in TJEd that isn't in other, better homeschool philosophies.

 

When we started TJEd, I lived near Diann Jeppson. She is a very nice woman. I took a class from her on how to practically apply TJEd in our homeschool. My oldest child was in preschool. Most people in the class had been attempting to do TJEd for years and had children much older than mine (late elementary through high school). At the time I bought the hype of TJEd, but even then I was a little concerned that these experienced TJEders felt a need for this class. During the course of the class we each developed a master educational plan for our families that listed topics and resources we intended to introduce to our children. That helped somewhat, but we were all reinventing the wheel. When I read TWTM, I realized that it did a better job laying out the plan that I had attempted to create on my own.

 

There are a number of consultants who will help you, for a fee, figure out how to implement TJEd in your home. That, combined with all the various seminars and lectures and books you can buy, makes TJEd feel like a sleezy operation. As a supporter I thought that this next resource would be the final missing piece I needed to make it work. It inevitably would not be and I'd go for yet another (paid) resource. Pursuing TJEd was such a huge waste of time and money.

 

 

I think I am doomed to forever re-invent the wheel--actually, I'm not sure it is even a wheel that I want--maybe it's a pair of skis, or hang-gliding wings, or...:D Obviously I enjoy the process far to much to ever give it up. But I can see what you mean about "pursuing TJEd" and never really coming up with a system that works. I guess that's just not how I have approached things.

 

I have a friend who follows WTM very closely. Her WTM book sits neatly on the shelf, looking brand-new in its dust-cover, next to rows of recommended curriculum that she diligently works through with her children. She is happy and successful in what she is doing. My WTM book lost its dust-cover long ago, there are stains on the cover, pages are falling out (and yes it is the most recent edition...), there are scribbled notes everywhere inside. I refer to it often, but what we do in a day or year looks very little like the recommendations in the book. I am also happy with my children's education and development. To me, TJEd is just one more source of ideas and inspiration, all to be filtered through my own experience and reasoning.

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Sigh.... no - I didn't because asking me how I handle specific areas of my sons education after I just said that I view TJED as more of a set of loose principles that can be applied to any curriculum or homeschooling "method" tells me that we are totally different wavelengths as to our respective understanding of TJED.
I just don't understand, right?

 

You said: I mesh TJED with a classical education and we are LOVING it.

 

I'll ask you one question then: How old is your child?

 

But I will say that I spend a considerable amount of time and effort working on the 7 Keys. And I try to keep them in mind for any homeschooling decision I make. I've seen first hand how powerful they can be. So in this respect you can say that I follow TJED quite closely. I spend a considerable amount of time working on Key 3, for example, because I've seen the difference in my son when he's INSPIRED to work on something versus the times he's done so simply because he was required to. It is exceedingly difficult to inspire a child who thinks they hate a subject to WANT to do it.. but the time I've spent on this key has paid back in dividends - I have grown exponentially as a mentor (and still have miles and miles to go and grow!!!) and my son has reaped the benefits.

 

I don't know, the more I study TJED concepts and figure out how to fit them into my classical method and curriculum, the MORE I can see how brilliant they are. I can even begin to see how I would apply TJED to my son's education (indeed to our lifestyle) if he were to be school in the public school system (a very real possibility for us in the future).

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But I will say that I spend a considerable amount of time and effort working on the 7 Keys. And I try to keep them in mind for any homeschooling decision I make. I've seen first hand how powerful they can be. So in this respect you can say that I follow TJED quite closely....

 

I don't know, the more I study TJED concepts and figure out how to fit them into my classical method and curriculum, the MORE I can see how brilliant they are. I can even begin to see how I would apply TJED to my son's education (indeed to our lifestyle) if he were to be school in the public school system (a very real possibility for us in the future).

But the concepts in the "7 Keys" are not unique to DeMille or TJED. Add them up and you basically get "interest-led learning with a classical twist" — which happens to be exactly what I do, despite having never read any of the TJED books. Funny how I was able to arrive at the same concepts, despite having several of those "industrial model" degrees. ;)

 

IMO, the only thing DeMille has added is packaging the "7 Keys" into a pyramid scheme that makes him a lot of money.

 

Jackie

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I think I am doomed to forever re-invent the wheel--actually, I'm not sure it is even a wheel that I want--maybe it's a pair of skis, or hang-gliding wings, or...:D Obviously I enjoy the process far to much to ever give it up. But I can see what you mean about "pursuing TJEd" and never really coming up with a system that works. I guess that's just not how I have approached things.

 

I have a friend who follows WTM very closely. Her WTM book sits neatly on the shelf, looking brand-new in its dust-cover, next to rows of recommended curriculum that she diligently works through with her children. She is happy and successful in what she is doing. My WTM book lost its dust-cover long ago, there are stains on the cover, pages are falling out (and yes it is the most recent edition...), there are scribbled notes everywhere inside. I refer to it often, but what we do in a day or year looks very little like the recommendations in the book. I am also happy with my children's education and development. To me, TJEd is just one more source of ideas and inspiration, all to be filtered through my own experience and reasoning.

 

My (latest edition) copy of TWTM has a cracked spine. ;) I am certainly a fan of looking at other ideas and incorporating things that are useful.

 

The problem I experienced with TJEd and the problem I see others experience is that it IS presented as THE WAY to educate if you want independently-thinking leaders. Approaches like TWTM are discouraged as being too like the "conveyor belt" and dire warnings are given about killing your child's love of learning. Because TJEd is presented this way, people attempt to use it as their only method. And it almost never works in a sense of producing articulate, competent scholar leaders, which is what the method promises as a result.

 

As for DeMille himself, I've met him and heard him speak on multiple occasions. I like SWB much more for reasons that I keep typing and deleting because they feel mean. :tongue_smilie:

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IMO, the only thing DeMille has added is packaging the "7 Keys" into a pyramid scheme that makes him a lot of money.
That's where the "brilliant" bit comes in. ;)
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I just don't understand, right?

 

You said: I mesh TJED with a classical education and we are LOVING it.

 

I'll ask you one question then: How old is your child?

 

LOL! No no no, I just meant that I can tell that MY understanding is very different from yours.

 

My son is young - we are still in the lower grammar stages.... so obviously I'm not claiming to be an expert here.... just that it is working beautifully for us. And I'm loving it.

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But the concepts in the "7 Keys" are not unique to DeMille or TJED. Add them up and you basically get "interest-led learning with a classical twist" — which happens to be exactly what I do, despite having never read any of the TJED books. Funny how I was able to arrive at the same concepts, despite having several of those "industrial model" degrees. ;)

 

IMO, the only thing DeMille has added is packaging the "7 Keys" into a pyramid scheme that makes him a lot of money.

 

Jackie

 

No, maybe they are not unique... but I think its the same idea as the WTM. The trivium and its methods are not unique to the Wise's... but they are explained packaged (and sold to the tune of millions of dollars) in a way that makes sense to many.

 

Its the same way with TJED... its philosophy and related books make sense to me. They explain these concepts in a way that inspires me to become a better mentor.

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