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Visualizing and Verbalizing people: word retrieval issues?

visualizing verbalizing

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#1 FairProspects

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:07 PM

I have done a few lessons now with ds, and I can tell he is getting frustrated by using the same structure over and over. What I'm wondering is, if ds has word retrieval issues and struggles to find words or "verbalize" how will I know when to move on to the Word-to-Picture step? He may be picturing in his mind very well, but I would not know it since he has so much trouble describing it. Ideas or suggestions?

#2 peacefully

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:05 PM

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Edited by yllek, 20 November 2012 - 02:16 PM.


#3 FairProspects

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:46 PM

Hey FP. We don't use V&V, but my son (also 7) has significant word retrieval issues and, from what I remember of your previous descriptions of your son, seems to be similar to your ds in a lot of ways. One of my ds's characteristics is that he is a divergent thinker (typical of dyslexics and VSLs). Narrowly defined or structured comprehension questions do not represent the way that he thinks about text. He has said to me on several occasions that harder questions (higher up Bloom's taxonomy) are easier for him than easier questions, so that's how I try to frame our discussions. If I start him talking about what the passage reminds him of, or what other alternative endings could have happened, etc., he invariably has an easier time answering those questions. After we discuss the higher-level questions, he has an easier time responding to basic recall and understanding questions, including those that draw upon his ability to visualize information.

Somehow basic recall questions trigger his dysnomia and other expressive language difficulties in a way that more loosely structured questions do not. I don't entirely understand why this is so. I've known this about ds for a while, but I didn't start to key into how to help him respond to reading comprehension questions until after reading The Dyslexic Advantage.

In any case, I wonder if your ds is resisting a task that may be too "easy" or one-dimensional. Sometimes complexity actually helps these kiddos learn more easily.


That is so interesting because my ds is the same. I call him my "backwards" kid because everything hard is easy for him and everything that is a basic skill is hard for him. The kid can philosophize about Julius Caesar's quest for power and the motivations for it, but can't consistently remember that 7 + 3 = 10 or memorize his address.

The task in V/V though is to describe the a picture to me in detail, so that I can visualize it and then describe it back to him. It is designed to get him to verbalize details of imagery. Is this not the right type of task for this kind of learner? I thought initially it might help him learn how to pay attention to detail and find the words to express detail so that he might recall more of it, but maybe this is the wrong approach?

#4 peacefully

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:27 PM

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#5 LaughingCat

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:00 PM

The task in V/V though is to describe the a picture to me in detail, so that I can visualize it and then describe it back to him. It is designed to get him to verbalize details of imagery.


At our VT they did a task that helped DD with describing things:
Two people each take a matching set of tanagram pieces(~5). One person puts up a divider (to hide what they are doing), and puts their choice of the pieces together however they like. Then they describe it to the other one so that the other person can recreate it. Then the divider is removed and the "pictures" are compared. I've seen online where you can do it with "picture pieces" (kind of like the old colorforms but magnetic) instead of tanagram pieces.

Anyway the point being (in my mind anyway LOL) to give the child practice in describing things in a way that the other person can also picture the same thing - and show them with a very clear visual whether their description "did the job" or not.

I liked it so much that I have this on my list to do with DD (because although she did fine with smaller # of pieces, she struggled when it got harder) but so far it has gotten pushed out by other things.

#6 merry gardens

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:34 PM

I have done a few lessons now with ds, and I can tell he is getting frustrated by using the same structure over and over. What I'm wondering is, if ds has word retrieval issues and struggles to find words or "verbalize" how will I know when to move on to the Word-to-Picture step? He may be picturing in his mind very well, but I would not know it since he has so much trouble describing it. Ideas or suggestions?

How long have you been working at this method for the picture-to-picture level?

I have an old V&V manual that isn't nearly as scripted as the newer workbooks, so I don't really know too much about the structure in the workbooks that you're currently using. For those stages, I used IdeaChain instead of V&V, but they are similar. IdeaChain used photos at that point instead of drawings. The techniques can be applied to any interesting pictures from magazines, etc. You might try doing some of this picture to word using some photos that you think he'd like and find easier to describe. Maybe that would change the structure enough to make it a bit more interesting for your ds.

Do you suspect that he forms pictures in his head? My own "backwards boy" has some minor word retrival issues, but I knew he formed good pictures in his head. (He's far better at it than I am; I'm mostly an auditory thinker.) These v&v/IdeaChain methods helped me explain to him that we use words to explain the pictures in our head to each other. I do think this style of program helped my ds some with his word retrival issues, partly because it helped him realize that other people don't just see what he's thinking until he communicates it with us.

#7 merry gardens

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:45 PM

Oh my goodness! I can relate to this! I will say that his ability to remember discrete facts has become much better after remediating his working memory. (Sorry, everybody, I know I keep harping on this working memory business. With any luck, maybe I can make it as trendy on this board as VT! ;)) ....

Oh, please do!!! :bigear: I've meant to start a thread discussing memory, but I don't know exactly what I want to ask. I'd love to chat about it and read about memory more. :)


...The difficulty that I had with the two LMB materials that I have (Seeing Stars and Cloud Nine) is that the structure of their lessons is soooo repetitive. My ds really craves novelty, interesting connections, new patterns, analogies, comparisons. He just crumples if we do the same thing again and again, and once he has lost interest, he just cannot mobilize his brain to the task....

Now you made me happy that I buy their old manuals used instead of the new programs with all the bells and whistles. The old V&V manual I have required me to create and gather many of the materials. That's why I went with IdeaChain, but while it had enough scripting and materials to get started, it also taught me how and encouraged me to use these methods with additional materials of my choice.

#8 sixpence1978

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:56 PM

(Sorry, everybody, I know I keep harping on this working memory business. With any luck, maybe I can make it as trendy on this board as VT! ;))


I wish you would! This is my DD's biggest weakness and I am having trouble finding good, concrete resources to help us out.


My ds really craves novelty, interesting connections, new patterns, analogies, comparisons. He just crumples if we do the same thing again and again, and once he has lost interest, he just cannot mobilize his brain to the task. He needs big picture input, lots of information and complexity, an interesting angle to digest that information, and developmentally appropriate ways for him to express what he knows. By that I mean, appropriate for his stage of development. I still do a lot of assessment based on oral response, I still scribe a lot for him, I allow him to draw while discussing, and we play a lot of games in order to extend his responses. I'm convinced that these "accommodations" are what have allowed my ds to thrive when he would have otherwise shut down in frustration and disinterest.


This is my DD too. She hates the same thing each day, but we find ourselves getting into rut after rut after rut. Any tips on how you make things more interesting?

#9 peacefully

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:05 AM

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#10 merry gardens

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:40 AM

I wish I had concrete resources to recommend. My ds went to a SLP who incorporated working memory exercises in her program of speech and language therapy. It's her own program, based on work that she did with patients with brain injuries. I haven't come across anything that seems really similar.

...Anytime I can incorporate some sort of role play, movement, props or building into a lesson, the lesson goes more smoothly. ....

yllek, you must know you make the rest of us insanely jealous of you for having found that slp for your son, don't you? ;) Keep talking about it anyway because we want to learn from her through you. :)

And once again, your post made me happy I chose IdeaChain instead of v&v for those early stages. :D IdeaChain included movements to help trigger memory. The op might want to think up some simple movements of her own that she could incorporate into V&V (since she already has that program.)

#11 richieheleng

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 07:06 PM

Yllek , can you share some of the exercises you do with your child ?
thanks

#12 momsuz123

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 07:38 PM

Yllek , can you share some of the exercises you do with your child ?
thanks


:iagree: I am just loving all the ideas I am getting with this thread. We are just on the beginning of "everything" we my 6 y/o. So I am just trying to learn a bunch and take it all in.

Thanks, keep it up, please.

#13 peacefully

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:43 AM

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#14 *LC

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 11:35 PM

Thanks for the ways to work on working memory. Recently, I was in an IEP meeting for my 10-year-old, where the school wanted to use poor working memory as one of the main causes of her academic problems. When I suggested working on working memory in speech therapy, and I was told working memory is something that could not be fixed. They will teach ways to compensate instead.

As painful as the meeting was, no one mentioned this child's homeschooling past as the cause of the current academic trouble. We've come a long way since the start of the schoolyear when that was the teacher's thinking even after I gave them a NP report with a diagnosis and a medical history.

I'll be watching this thread, because I plan to start V/V with this child, and I anticipate having these same issues.

thank you



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