Halcyon Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I was thinking of purchasing this--would like some motivational classical books....thoughts? did you like it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I was thinking of purchasing this--would like some motivational classical books....thoughts? did you like it? I would urge you do do a little research into Oliver DeMille. He has a history of misrepresenting his academic credentials by claiming multiple advanced degrees from diploma-mills. His so called "University" is a phony unaccredited sham. Numerous families have been sucked into using his expensive and ineffective materials, causing great harm in the home schooling community. "Thomas Jefferson" education has nothing to do with the education that Thomas Jefferson received, it just sounds good. There have been numerous threads on TJE on this forum. Avoid this like the plague! Bill 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 I would urge you do do a little research into Oliver DeMille. He has a history of misrepresenting his academic credentials by claiming multiple advanced degrees from diploma-mills. His so called "University" is a phony unaccredited sham. Numerous families have been sucked into using his expensive and ineffective materials, causing great harm in the home schooling community. "Thomas Jefferson" education has nothing to do with the education that Thomas Jefferson received, it just sounds good. There have been numerous threads on TJE on this forum. Avoid this like the plague! Bill :lol::lol: Well okay then. Thanks, Bill! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 :lol::lol: Well okay then. Thanks, Bill! :D You dodged a bullet with this one :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggie Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 it's not really a classical method of homeschooling; it's an unschooling method of homeschooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 would like some motivational classical books....Motivational for whom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Run. Run far away and don't look back. Seriously. The whole thing is a scam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Nobody does non-schooling more aggressively or expensively than the Tjed Moms I know, Halcyon. They keep chasing rainbows (and buying stuff) hoping to internalize enough of the magical mystery of the ghost of Thomas Jefferson's schoolmaster to turn and apply it to their own dc, who look less promising (academically) by the day because they are jumping on the trampoline and watching DVDs for eight hours a day while Mom attends seminars and reads books about homeschooling. And then, when Mom realizes that she's spent a year doing nearly nothing, she finds it very hard to get solid ground under her feet again. She looks at other options and despairs. Everything looks too prosaic, too insipid...all other curricula and methodology just seem too inferior to Tjed (which she'd never grasped because it doesn't exist) for her to even try. She gives up and puts the kids in school so at least it's no longer her problem. I wish this story were true of only one Mom of my acquaintance, but it's typical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I tagged this thread with 'tjed' which anyone can click to go to this list of threads about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I read the TJeD book, and then that other one that's supposed to teach you how to actually do it (the name escapes me at the moment) just to satisfy my own curiosity, and I agree with the pps. The books were utterly useless. Both of them were mostly just this DeMille guy expounding on why his method is the best, without really telling you how to do his method. And from what I could glean, his hsing "method" is little more than patriotic unschooling. Wanting kids to be inspired to learn is all well and good, but it's going to be hard for them to do anything about it without having a half-decent academic foundation to start. I'm glad I got both books from the library and didn't actually spend money on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I read both of the books as well, right before we switched to classical education. The one redeeming piece of knowledge I gleaned was to pursue your own self-education as you teach your children. Okay, so now you don't have to buy the books. I went on to read LCC and WTM. They both still sit on my shelf, TJed books are gone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 There have been numerous threads on TJE on this forum. I've seen a couple on k-8. I agree: run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I have bought a lot of homeschooling books, but the TJEd books are the only ones I've regretted spending money on. And I even bought 2 of them :001_huh:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Nobody does non-schooling more aggressively or expensively than the Tjed Moms I know, Halcyon. They keep chasing rainbows (and buying stuff) hoping to internalize enough of the magical mystery of the ghost of Thomas Jefferson's schoolmaster to turn and apply it to their own dc, who look less promising (academically) by the day because they are jumping on the trampoline and watching DVDs for eight hours a day while Mom attends seminars and reads books about homeschooling. And then, when Mom realizes that she's spent a year doing nearly nothing, she finds it very hard to get solid ground under her feet again. She looks at other options and despairs. Everything looks too prosaic, too insipid...all other curricula and methodology just seem too inferior to Tjed (which she'd never grasped because it doesn't exist) for her to even try. She gives up and puts the kids in school so at least it's no longer her problem. I wish this story were true of only one Mom of my acquaintance, but it's typical. :iagree: Yes, it is. I chased rainbows and spent a ton of money before I threw in the towel. My oldest is in 6th and is just about caught up to where she would have been with less effort and fewer tears had I not tried to do TJEd for so long. There are a lot of TJEders in my area because it was "born" near here. I fell victim to their enthusiasm. The practicalities and substance just are not there. I wrote a blog post about TJEd and my experiences: http://classicalhouseoflearning.wordpress.com/2011/06/25/what-makes-a-good-educational-philosophy/ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Don't. Inauthentic, pseudo-intellectual charlatanism with a highly pretentious title, little to no substance, ideas which range from amusing to downright dangerous. Just my $.02 based on limited, superficial contact with it (because I did not deem it worthy of my time to study it more extensively). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Huh. I read this after I finsihed the first version of WTM years and years ago and it sits on my shelf in the basement. I remember thinking there were parts I didn't care for (probably the religious stuff) but I don't remember anything else annoying to me. I had no idea there was so much controversy and a real school or stuff. :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Huh. I read this after I finsihed the first version of WTM years and years ago and it sits on my shelf in the basement. I remember thinking there were parts I didn't care for (probably the religious stuff) but I don't remember anything else annoying to me. I had no idea there was so much controversy and a real school or stuff. :confused: "Real school" is questionable. ;) If I hadn't already trashed all my TJEd stuff, I'd be tempted to go through and mark all the problems with a red Sharpie. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maus Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I read the first one, "A Thomas Jefferson education," when I was first researching homeschooling. A friend who combines TJED with CM recommended it. I found it vaguely inspiring. It is actually what got me thinking I wanted to go in a classical direction. I just didn't really quite grasp how it would get me there. I read the first edition of WTM shortly thereafter and was initially a bit overwhelmed by that. I returned both to the library and just kind of researched curriculum on my own, and got started with that. A year or so later, I went back to the library and flipped through both again. Nothing in the TJED book resonated with me, but I checked out WTM again (by then the library had the second edition). I didn't actually realize there was more to TJED until I got involved with local homeschooling groups. The practioners didn't impress or inspire me, nor did their kids, particularly. Do you remember that running gag, "Things that make you go, hmm?" (I think the original was on The Arsenio Hall show, but it was oft parodied during that era.) I've eavesdropped on a number of conversations between TJEd moms that made me go, "hmm." I now own WTM (3rd edition) and cringe when anyone mentions TJED. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Motivational for whom? For moi. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Nobody does non-schooling more aggressively or expensively than the Tjed Moms I know, Halcyon. They keep chasing rainbows (and buying stuff) hoping to internalize enough of the magical mystery of the ghost of Thomas Jefferson's schoolmaster to turn and apply it to their own dc, who look less promising (academically) by the day because they are jumping on the trampoline and watching DVDs for eight hours a day while Mom attends seminars and reads books about homeschooling. And then, when Mom realizes that she's spent a year doing nearly nothing, she finds it very hard to get solid ground under her feet again. She looks at other options and despairs. Everything looks too prosaic, too insipid...all other curricula and methodology just seem too inferior to Tjed (which she'd never grasped because it doesn't exist) for her to even try. She gives up and puts the kids in school so at least it's no longer her problem. I wish this story were true of only one Mom of my acquaintance, but it's typical. :lol: This made me laugh out loud. Sorry, I don't know why I found this funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 For moi. :)I take great inspiration from Neil Postman's The End of Education, and make a point of rereading at least once a year. It's not written to homeschoolers, but it speaks to what I'm striving to do: create multiple narratives to give my kids a sense of place and time and scale, with an eye to allowing them to develop a sense of purpose and a desire to engage, to help shape the narrative on some level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 For moi. :) Have you read Susan's blog posts and watched PHP's videos? I find them pretty motivational. Have you read The Well Educated Mind? How about...How to Read Books Like a Professor? What kind of motivation are you seeking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I take great inspiration from Neil Postman's The End of Education, and make a point of rereading at least once a year. I really just need to up and buy this book. I wish our library actually had books in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) I take great inspiration from Neil Postman's The End of Education, and make a point of rereading at least once a year. It's not written to homeschoolers, but it speaks to what I'm striving to do: create multiple narratives to give my kids a sense of place and time and scale, with an eye to allowing them to develop a sense of purpose and a desire to engage, to help shape the narrative on some level. Thank you. I have heard of it, but I don't believe I've ever read it. eTA: My library has his Building A Bridge to the 18th Century--looks fascinating. Edited February 19, 2012 by Halcyon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Have you read Susan's blog posts and watched PHP's videos? I find them pretty motivational. Have you read The Well Educated Mind? How about...How to Read Books Like a Professor? What kind of motivation are you seeking? Yes, I have read her books, and read her blog posts. I think I am always on the lookout for books that will motivate me to continue to educate my children in a challenging, dynamic way...books that will help maintain my passion and drive...books that help me see education in a new light....that help me focus on the now.... Tall order, eh? :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I went on to read LCC and WTM. They both still sit on my shelf, TJed books are gone. what is LCC? someone (wanting to "spread the news" - sounds like amway . . ) gave me a TJed book. I couldn't read much before I was feeling absolutely disgusted with it and trashed it. I've encountered some very enthusiastic TJed's users who are a little . . . . unrealistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 what is LCC? someone (wanting to "spread the news" - sounds like amway . . ) gave me a TJed book. I couldn't read much before I was feeling absolutely disgusted with it and trashed it. I've encountered some very enthusiastic TJed's users who are a little . . . . unrealistic. The Latin-Centered Curriculum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Geek Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I read the book a couple of years ago and thought it was inspirational, but never found anything on putting it into practice. If you want to read it get it from the library. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara R Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 what is LCC? someone (wanting to "spread the news" - sounds like amway . . ) gave me a TJed book. I couldn't read much before I was feeling absolutely disgusted with it and trashed it. I've encountered some very enthusiastic TJed's users who are a little . . . . unrealistic. I first heard about the book from an Amway-er, back in 2002. I think that's how the first TJed book was promoted. Something that always bothered me about the TJed books was the plagiarism. Anyone who has taken English 101 knows that you don't give an idea without citing where it came from. Every other neo-classical education book cites at least the Dorothy Sayers quote. WTM was published 3 years (I think) before TJed. Neither one is cited. It's like he invented these ideas out of his head, which I find difficult to believe. Or he is a poor researcher and didn't know what other books were out there. Either way it's unprofessional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tntgoodwin Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Glad I read this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Something that always bothered me about the TJed books was the plagiarism. Anyone who has taken English 101 knows that you don't give an idea without citing where it came from. Every other neo-classical education book cites at least the Dorothy Sayers quote. WTM was published 3 years (I think) before TJed. Neither one is cited. It's like he invented these ideas out of his head, which I find difficult to believe. Or he is a poor researcher and didn't know what other books were out there. Either way it's unprofessional. Yes. I felt the same way about The Core, too. I at least appreciated how well-documented LCC was. Edited February 19, 2012 by angela in ohio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 would like some motivational classical books... Have you read The Seven Laws of Teaching? That one will motivate you! I don't know if you mind religious authors or not, but The Trivium by Sister Miriam Joseph is excellent as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tntgoodwin Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I have yet to read the Bluedorn's Teaching the Trivium... Worth my time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Have you read The Seven Laws of Teaching? That one will motivate you! I don't know if you mind religious authors or not, but The Trivium by Sister Miriam Joseph is excellent as well. Thanks! I will take a look at both! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I take great inspiration from Neil Postman's The End of Education, and make a point of rereading at least once a year. I've requested it from my library. Thanks. Apparently I checked it out in 2006. Clearly time for a reread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin M Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Darn. I just ordered the Student Whisperer by DeMille. Last year I started TJE but never finished and for the life of me couldn't figure out why. I keep going back to read it and something stops me from finishing it. I skipped to the back and ordered a couple of the classic books they suggest you read with your kids ie Little Britches and Laddie A True Blue Story. I planned on prereading them first. From everyone's comments now I can see how TJE is ineffectual. Still hoping I'll glean some useful information from The Student Whisperer on Mentoring. Will definitely check out the other books suggestions. They all sound very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Run. Run far away and don't look back. Seriously. The whole thing is a scam. I tried to think of something deeply insightful and helpful to add but really all I can do is say :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I actually have been inspired by reading a couple of the TJEd books, but I would never plan to strictly follow their method....because I was not able to actually see a method. I enjoyed reading them, but I disliked the way it was presented as this big established proven deal, when really it is just one guy's ideas about how to homeschool, and I did not read anything that led me to think that he had actually been doing the homeschooling himself. I also do not care for the cultish following with the seminars, forums etc. Another member here suggested another author for inspiration, and so I have been reading Marva Collins. I am finding real inspiration in her books. This is the kick in the tush I have been wanting. Our kids are adjusting to some very recently raised expectations ! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I actually have been inspired by reading a couple of the TJEd books, but I would never plan to strictly follow their method....because I was not able to actually see a method. I enjoyed reading them, but I disliked the way it was presented as this big established proven deal, when really it is just one guy's ideas about how to homeschool, and I did not read anything that led me to think that he had actually been doing the homeschooling himself. I also do not care for the cultish following with the seminars, forums etc. Another member here suggested another author for inspiration, and so I have been reading Marva Collins. I am finding real inspiration in her books. This is the kick in the tush I have been wanting. Our kids are adjusting to some very recently raised expectations ! :D Do you have book titles or links for Marva Collins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Do you have book titles or links for Marva Collins? This one I did not get so much out of, but still enjoyed reading it: Values: Lighting the Candle of Excellence : A Practical Guide for the Family by Marva Collins (Hardcover - Oct 1996) This one I am in the middle of and enjoying very much. I may purchase my own copy to highlight: Ordinary Children, Extraordinary Teachers by Marva Collins (Paperback - Sep 1, 1992) This one I am still waiting for the library to get for me: Marva Collins' Way by Marva Collins (Paperback - Sep 1, 1990) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeBeaks Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 It sounded good to me too until I heard him lecture at a conference once several years ago. He came off to me as arrogant and intolerant of other styles of learning, which was a real turnoff to me. I did go on to read his book at least, thinking perhaps just he was having an off day or not a good public speaker. It was interesting, and I gleaned some, but overall I think for us classical style is more what I want for my kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapbabe Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Well I'm gonna be the black sheep here and say I think that TJED has real merit. Are there people who "do it" and I disagree with there methods? Tons of them. Do I think there are WTMers who "do WTM" and I disagree with their methods? Absolutely. I think the ideas have a lot of merit. I don't think Oliver DeMille is out to scam anyone. I don't know about his credentials or lack thereof, but his book has some good insight. I live around where it is born too, so there are lots of people doing it that I see and think "hmmmm". But I also see some who are doing an amazing job, who's children are incredible leaders and well read scholars. Not all of them are. This way of teaching may not be for everyone. But I will say that in all the threads I've read about TJED I'm shocked at the super emotionally charged hatred of it and Oliver DeMille. I'm not here to argue, to each his own, but I'm just saying I think the book has good solid ideas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Well I'm gonna be the black sheep here and say I think that TJED has real merit. Are there people who "do it" and I disagree with there methods? Tons of them. Do I think there are WTMers who "do WTM" and I disagree with their methods? Absolutely. I think the ideas have a lot of merit. I don't think Oliver DeMille is out to scam anyone. I don't know about his credentials or lack thereof, but his book has some good insight. I live around where it is born too, so there are lots of people doing it that I see and think "hmmmm". But I also see some who are doing an amazing job, who's children are incredible leaders and well read scholars. Not all of them are. This way of teaching may not be for everyone. But I will say that in all the threads I've read about TJED I'm shocked at the super emotionally charged hatred of it and Oliver DeMille. I'm not here to argue, to each his own, but I'm just saying I think the book has good solid ideas. Shalynn, I certainly don't want to argue (I promise!) but the bolded is so opposite of my impression of tjed homeschoolers. Would you mind specifying exactly how the children are incredible leaders? In what organizations? With what recognition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDad Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Shalynn, I certainly don't want to argue (I promise!) but the bolded is so opposite of my impression of tjed homeschoolers. Would you mind specifying exactly how the children are incredible leaders? In what organizations? With what recognition? I am interested in hearing the answer to this question. Bump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I am interested in hearing the answer to this question. Bump.It repeatedly says so in the book, doesn't it? What more proof do you need? Amazon "Look Inside" shows 45 instances of the word "leader" in the 137 pages of the main text of the book. You can do the search yourself to see the context: We're grooming tomorrow's leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Shalynn, I certainly don't want to argue (I promise!) but the bolded is so opposite of my impression of tjed homeschoolers. Would you mind specifying exactly how the children are incredible leaders? In what organizations? With what recognition? I'd love to hear, too. I live near a lot of TJEders and haven't seen anything super impressive. It repeatedly says so in the book, doesn't it? What more proof do you need? Amazon "Look Inside" shows 45 instances of the word "leader" in the 137 pages of the main text of the book. You can do the search yourself to see the context: We're grooming tomorrow's leaders. It's in a book. It must be true! :lol: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladydusk Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I have yet to read the Bluedorn's Teaching the Trivium... Worth my time? I really wanted to like this, and there are some good things there IMO, but I found the writing extremely dull and hard to wade through. I do go back and refer to it occasionally. Didn't help that I read it almost immediately after WTM with SWB's sparkling prose and sense of humor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alenee Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I have yet to read the Bluedorn's Teaching the Trivium... Worth my time? I have WTM and the Bluedorn's book side-by-side at all times. The Bluedorns have some great resources and if you're strongly protestant, you may very well love it. If you're not religious or are Orthodox/Catholic, some of it may chafe a bit. I put their math ideas into practice and now have two dc that are much further ahead of their older sibling (at their respective ages) because of it. I love their list of what to do before age __________. This has helped me remember that I can give the kids a great education without spending all our time inside of a book/textbook. I don't use their curriculum suggestions but on the whole, I like their book and again, keep it next to me as I re-read WTM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Have you read The Seven Laws of Teaching? That one will motivate you! I don't know if you mind religious authors or not, but The Trivium by Sister Miriam Joseph is excellent as well. Oh good to hear you say this, I have a copy coming in via Amazon tomorrow I hope. That title came into me by a friend who was/is perusing the ..uh..menopause moment...lemme think... http://apprenticeship.circeinstitute.com/ Ya, that one..lol good stuff there. Check out the reading list here: http://apprenticeship.circeinstitute.com/the-curriculum/ Can you say YUMMY! Edited March 16, 2012 by one*mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I have yet to read the Bluedorn's Teaching the Trivium... Worth my time? No. The Bluedorns throw out all the classical patrimony of the Greeks and Romans because they were "pagan" cultures and attempt to reinvent "classical" education as including only those elements that affirm the very narrow view of their ultra-conservative patriarchal/authoritarian Protestant fundamentalism. And they pound it with a heavy hammer. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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