Diane Ravitch on Finnish education

[stripe]

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/mar/08/schools-we-can-envy/

 

Review of

Finnish Lessons: What Can the World Learn from Educational Change in Finland?

by Pasi Sahlberg, with a foreword by Andy Hargreaves

Teachers College Press, 167 p.

[Negin]

This looks so interesting. I wonder if it's worth me getting and if it would be helpful for a homeschooler with children of my age? :confused: I love Finland (not the weather ;)), but so much else.

[....]

I've read many articles about Finland's educational system becoming a model for other countries. The head of their Dept of Ed even said that there is alot of "educational tourism" right now in Finland. Educational reps from other countries have been touring Finnish schools, etc.

 

Amazingly...*ahem*...the kids do NOT take standardized tests until the end of high school. This article also says that kids aren't prepped for the tests, either.

 

In Texas, the standardized testing has gone so overboard that the schools can't function properly. One elementary school teacher told me that her class was being tested 4-5 times a year. And they make a huge deal about it. They have pep rallies, they constantly do test prep, they send notes home that say "Only 3 more days until testing!" Parents I've talked to say that some of the kids have serious testing anxiety now. All this testing is producing a real mediocre education here in Texas (from what I'm seeing -sorry to be so brutally honest).

 

So, this might be hard to articulate (I just woke up :tongue_smilie:). I don't give my kids standardized tests in our homeschool. I'm holding off on testing until high school. I don't want standardized testing to dictate how my children are educated. If I am using a solid, tried course of study (for us, it's been classical education) -by the middle/end of high school- they will have learned what they need to know. I don't want to incite panic or make drastic changes to my curriculum every year based on standardized testing.

 

I like the comment in the article about how Finnish teachers would react if they were told their jobs were dependent upon yearly standardized testing. "They would walk out and they wouldn't return until the authorities stopped this crazy idea." :D

[TXMomof4]

That education system sounds amazing. The only problem I have is things that will work in a country the size of Florida and Georgia put together, with a population of ~ 5 million is going to be really hard to implement across the US.

[stripe]

But when thirty states are the size of Finland, it sounds more manageable on the state level, doesn't it?

 

I highly recommend the documentary on Finnish education, the Finland Phenomenon.

[Melinda in VT]

The populations of Finland and the United States are so very different that I have doubts about whether Finland's system can hold the answers to our educational needs.

[Negin]

I highly recommend the documentary on Finnish education, the Finland Phenomenon.

Thank you. I'm going to look for this.

A good friend of ours is a teacher in Finland. This is probably the only place where I would not mind not homeschooling. :) Otherwise, we're very committed.

[Stacy in NJ]

They're illegal. Think that's gonna happen in the USA?

 

apples to oranges.

[beaners]

I love books comparing educational systems in different parts of the world. It's difficult to pull out isolated aspects of that education and insert them in different cultures, but I still like to read about it. I'm hoping our library system buys a copy of this. I suggested it, so hopefully I'll get a chance to read it. It looks like they already had the documentary mentioned here.

[Negin]

The populations of Finland and the United States are so very different that I have doubts about whether Finland's system can hold the answers to our educational needs.

Finland has a high immigrant population and is quite diverse, as is most of Europe.

[mommaduck]

They're illegal. Think that's gonna happen in the USA?

 

apples to oranges.

That I did not know :( Otherwise, I love a lot of things about Finland (I'm a quarter Finnish, so that's a good part of it)

[Melinda in VT]

Finland has a high immigrant population and is quite diverse, as is most of Europe.

 

Thanks for the article. This presents a different picture than I had read elsewhere. I'm happy to be corrected.

[....]

They're illegal. Think that's gonna happen in the USA?

 

apples to oranges.

 

interesting...I wonder if our society is much more segregated by income/class than theirs is.

[....]

Thanks for the article. This presents a different picture than I had read elsewhere. I'm happy to be corrected.

 

I know this is probably opening a big old can o' worms...but I thought they were very proactive with immigrants assimilating into their country. I thought they helped them find a job, had classes for them, etc. I read somewhere that they were very supportive in helping immigrants get started.

[....]

I love books comparing educational systems in different parts of the world. It's difficult to pull out isolated aspects of that education and insert them in different cultures, but I still like to read about it.

 

Me, too. I lived overseas when I was in my early 20's. I'm always very interested in how other countries do things.

[snowbeltmom]

Since 42% of the population enters vocational training after two years of high school, I wonder if that 42% is taking the international tests? If only 58% of the population is taking these exams, I am not sure this is an apples to apples comparison.

 

What I did find interesting was the country's stance on teacher training. If we could implement Finland's teacher training standards and stop teaching to dumb-downed tests, imo, we would see a huge improvement in our educational outcomes:

 

Finland’s highly developed teacher preparation program is the centerpiece of its school reform strategy. Only eight universities are permitted to prepare teachers, and admission to these elite teacher education programs is highly competitive: only one of every ten applicants is accepted. There are no alternative ways to earn a teaching license. Those who are accepted have already taken required high school courses in physics, chemistry, philosophy, music, and at least two foreign languages. Future teachers have a strong academic education for three years, then enter a two-year master’s degree program. Subject-matter teachers earn their master’s degree from the university’s academic departments, not—in contrast to the US—the department of teacher education, or in special schools for teacher education.

[Murphy101]

I can't find the Finnish education documentary recommended. If someone else does, please post a link.

 

I know this is probably opening a big old can o' worms...but I thought they were very proactive with immigrants assimilating into their country. I thought they helped them find a job, had classes for them, etc. I read somewhere that they were very supportive in helping immigrants get started.

 

Indeed. Many don't appreciate Borg recruitment. :)

[Parrothead]

Since 42% of the population enters vocational training after two years of high school, I wonder if that 42% is taking the international tests? If only 58% of the population is taking these exams, I am not sure this is an apples to apples comparison.

 

What I did find interesting was the country's stance on teacher training. If we could implement Finland's teacher training standards and stop teaching to dumb-downed tests, imo, we would see a huge improvement in our educational outcomes:

 

Finland’s highly developed teacher preparation program is the centerpiece of its school reform strategy. Only eight universities are permitted to prepare teachers, and admission to these elite teacher education programs is highly competitive: only one of every ten applicants is accepted. There are no alternative ways to earn a teaching license. Those who are accepted have already taken required high school courses in physics, chemistry, philosophy, music, and at least two foreign languages. Future teachers have a strong academic education for three years, then enter a two-year master’s degree program. Subject-matter teachers earn their master’s degree from the university’s academic departments, not—in contrast to the US—the department of teacher education, or in special schools for teacher education.

And this is probably the key difference.

[mommaduck]

Since 42% of the population enters vocational training after two years of high school, I wonder if that 42% is taking the international tests? If only 58% of the population is taking these exams, I am not sure this is an apples to apples comparison.

 

What I did find interesting was the country's stance on teacher training. If we could implement Finland's teacher training standards and stop teaching to dumb-downed tests, imo, we would see a huge improvement in our educational outcomes:

 

Finland’s highly developed teacher preparation program is the centerpiece of its school reform strategy. Only eight universities are permitted to prepare teachers, and admission to these elite teacher education programs is highly competitive: only one of every ten applicants is accepted. There are no alternative ways to earn a teaching license. Those who are accepted have already taken required high school courses in physics, chemistry, philosophy, music, and at least two foreign languages. Future teachers have a strong academic education for three years, then enter a two-year master’s degree program. Subject-matter teachers earn their master’s degree from the university’s academic departments, not—in contrast to the US—the department of teacher education, or in special schools for teacher education.

Interesting. FTR, one of my cousins there is seventeen and already speaks five languages.

[stripe]

I can't find the Finnish education documentary recommended. If someone else does, please post a link.

 

Can't find it where? I am not sure what this means.

 

Its name is The Finland Phenomenon.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2101464/

 

There are copies posted online if you search for it by name, but I will leave those for you to find.

 

You might also check your library. I found a copy at mine.

 

Here are excerpts and information from its creators.

http://www.2mminutes.com/products/pc/viewPrd.asp?idProduct=22

http://www.educationnation.com/index.cfm?objectid=FF416052-88A9-11E0-B74E000C296BA163

 

I am not suggesting Finland is perfect. I just find it to be so refreshingly non-test oriented and so promoting of creaive thought. I really liked the documentary because I saw way more of the schools than I ever had before. I was ready to move there!

 

Eta: And I was highly impressed at how well the 9th graders spoke English. I had the same impression from the PBS newshour report from last year on S Korea.

Edited February 15, 2012 by stripe

[Negin]

This presents a different picture than I had read elsewhere. I'm happy to be corrected.

Melinda, thank you for your kind words. :grouphug:

 

I thought they were very proactive with immigrants assimilating into their country. I thought they helped them find a job, had classes for them, etc. I read somewhere that they were very supportive in helping immigrants get started.

Yes, I've read this. I don't know much about it, but the little that I do know is that most Scandinavian countries (maybe all?) are very helpful and accommodating to immigrants.

 

I am not suggesting Finland is perfect. I just find it to be so refreshingly non-test oriented and so promoting of creaive thought. I really liked the documentary because I saw way more of the schools than I ever had before. I was ready to move there!

Eta: And I was highly impressed at how well the 9th graders spoke English. I had the same impression from the PBS newshour report from last year on S Korea.

Wow. I can't wait to see it. I agree. No system is perfect, but again, that's pretty much the only place that I can think of where I would not have a problem with not homeschooling. I'm envious. :D

[Stacy in NJ]

interesting...I wonder if our society is much more segregated by income/class than theirs is.

 

There are more people residing in the STATE of NJ (where I live) than in Finland. Finland's population is incredibly homogeneous, while our is incredibly diverse. The state of Minnesota has a similar population but is more heterogeneous than Finland.

 

Apples to oranges.

[mirth]

There are more people residing in the STATE of NJ (where I live) than in Finland. Finland's population is incredibly homogeneous, while our is incredibly diverse. The state of Minnesota has a similar population but is more heterogeneous than Finland.

 

Apples to oranges.

 

Exactly! Why can't the Finnish model be applied successfully to even smaller, socialist European countries -- like France?

 

Anyway, Diane Ravitch only knows one song ... it goes something like:

Poverty is the beginning and end of all kids' education.

It doesn't matter if Supreme Court Justices are their teachers.

Teachers can't be held responsible.

If everyone had more money ...

If schools took care of your every need ...

Everyone would be fine.

DR was one of the chief architects of NCLB under Bush. Later, she decided she was just plain wrong. :confused::confused:

[Stacy in NJ]

on a large scale. How that plays out in coming years is still an unknown.

 

Finland has a high immigrant population and is quite diverse, as is most of Europe.

 

ETA: What typically happens once a tipping point is reached (i.e. France and the Netherlands) is balkanization or "separateness".

Edited February 15, 2012 by Stacy in NJ

[Penelope]

 

Anyway, Diane Ravitch only knows one song ... it goes something like:

 

Poverty is the beginning and end of all kids' education.

 

It doesn't matter if Supreme Court Justices are their teachers.

 

Teachers can't be held responsible.

 

If everyone had more money ...

 

If schools took care of your every need ...

 

Everyone would be fine.

 

DR was one of the chief architects of NCLB under Bush. Later, she decided she was just plain wrong. :confused::confused:

 

I think I agree. I thought her book on why education got worse in the later part of the twentieth century was spot on. But most of what she has written reads like criticisms without any solutions.

 

I also don't think we can compare stats on poverty etc. with other countries without knowing how those are defined. The "poverty line" in the U.S. is a very interesting thing to look at. Some people that are in poverty might not even know they are considered in that group, and don't feel they are impoverished.

 

The lack of private schools is important.

 

Do private schools in the U.S. participate in PISA and TIMSS?

[Ester Maria]

Since 42% of the population enters vocational training after two years of high school, I wonder if that 42% is taking the international tests? If only 58% of the population is taking these exams, I am not sure this is an apples to apples comparison.

Yes. PISA ranks 15 year olds and when schools are selected to participate in it, there are fairly strict parameters that you must respect to give a fairly realistic snapshot of the society (e.g. you cannot have all urban schools, all GT magnet schools, etc.). PISA is problematic for other reasons, but manipulations of this type are actually minimal, from what I am told.

[stripe]

I still think it has value to consider a DIFFERENT path than the test-craze madness. Especially for homeschoolers who seek a different path.

 

It's not so much a matter of "well, they're a small country," or "they have little poverty and a social welfare system" or "well, they're all white blonds anyway" as far as I am concerned. It's also not about some Diane Ravitch lovefest. We've had these discussions before on here.

 

I find the Finns interesting because they have chosen a different path, and they are doing well with it. That, to me, is my inspiration. I am not going to move to Finland. I am not going to establish a new system of education in the US.

 

I am, however, planning the system of education for MY children, and the more I see of their system, the more I want to extract things from it to use in my home.

 

I like the idea of having some positive influences to discuss, instead of "neh neh, public school students are all idiots" or whatever. I need some examples of what TO DO, not just what not to. And it cannot all just involve some fabled Victorian or GrecoRoman past where some rich boys learned Latin. I need something a bit more.

 

I found The Finland Phenomenon, incidentally, way, way more interesting than the 2 Million Minutes movie.

[Bang!Zoom!]

I asked DR once about her position on homeschooling.

 

Her answer was:

 

Parents can do what they want so long as they don't try to destroy public education or turn it over to profiteers.

[Ester Maria]

I asked DR once about her position on homeschooling.

 

Her answer was:

 

Parents can do what they want so long as they don't try to destroy public education or turn it over to profiteers.

The problem is that in many people's eyes you ARE destroying the public education by opting your child out of it... and the ultimate consequence of that way of thinking is the lack of choice. (Which may or may not be worth it, depending on how you look it.)

 

As somebody who was confronted over her choice A LOT, coming from a culture where it is an extremely rare choice, I have heard countless times the counter-argument of, "But, if all educated parents who care and have the means and time to educate their children took their smart, well-behaved, accomplished and curious children out of schools, a lack of balance would be felt and schools would become places of cultural depravity, amongst other reasons, because people like you took the kids out, and other kids would not have those children to lift them up a bit higher, so you would indirectly be responsible for widening the already existing gaps in education and culture, etc."

[Bang!Zoom!]

I've never heard that argument here, but where I am at..there are serious overcrowding issues anyway...do you think that question might be geographically sensitive?

 

My world is pretty small, but just wondering.

[justamouse]

But when thirty states are the size of Finland, it sounds more manageable on the state level, doesn't it?

 

I highly recommend the documentary on Finnish education, the Finland Phenomenon.

 

I think you're right, it would have to be a state choice. Which would be much more palatable to the US.

 

They're illegal. Think that's gonna happen in the USA?

 

apples to oranges.

But why would us having private schools hinder us from reforming the PS system through each state?

 

I've never heard that argument here, but where I am at..there are serious overcrowding issues anyway...do you think that question might be geographically sensitive?

 

My world is pretty small, but just wondering.

 

I've heard it here. :glare: The PS is owed my children, to up their scores. Homeschoolers are the reason the school test scores are low. Not kidding. The guidance counselor told me that.

[snowbeltmom]

The problem is that in many people's eyes you ARE destroying the public education by opting your child out of it... and the ultimate consequence of that way of thinking is the lack of choice. (Which may or may not be worth it, depending on how you look it.)

 

As somebody who was confronted over her choice A LOT, coming from a culture where it is an extremely rare choice, I have heard countless times the counter-argument of, "But, if all educated parents who care and have the means and time to educate their children took their smart, well-behaved, accomplished and curious children out of schools, a lack of balance would be felt and schools would become places of cultural depravity, amongst other reasons, because people like you took the kids out, and other kids would not have those children to lift them up a bit higher, so you would indirectly be responsible for widening the already existing gaps in education and culture, etc."

 

I just encountered this sentiment for the first time last week. Homeschooling is very rare in my area, and usually people look at me like I am a freak and am going to damage my kids. It was strange for me to have someone understand that the public schools were not able to meet the needs of my kids, yet still not agree with the decision to homeschool.

 

He felt that I had an obligation to society to remain in the public school and work on school reform. Ahh, yeah. Did I mention that the man was childless?

[GoVanGogh]

I asked DR once about her position on homeschooling.

 

Her answer was:

 

Parents can do what they want so long as they don't try to destroy public education or turn it over to profiteers.

That is interesting.

In DR's book on the 'life and death of the American school system' she says that parents are not smart enough to shop around for good private and charter schools, as they don't know enough to know what they are looking for. :glare:

I took that to mean, by extension, that we certainly aren't smart enough to educate our own. :lol:

 

I've heard it here. :glare: The PS is owed my children, to up their scores. Homeschoolers are the reason the school test scores are low. Not kidding. The guidance counselor told me that.

Yup.

I hear that all the time, both locally and from family living across the country.

 

I still think it has value to consider a DIFFERENT path than the test-craze madness. Especially for homeschoolers who seek a different path.

...

I find the Finns interesting because they have chosen a different path, and they are doing well with it. That, to me, is my inspiration. ...

:iagree:

[Negin]

I still think it has value to consider a DIFFERENT path than the test-craze madness.

Exactly. Like everything you take the good and can not do the things you don't like. :)

 

It's not so much a matter of "well, they're a small country," or "they have little poverty and a social welfare system" or "well, they're all white blonds anyway" as far as I am concerned. It's also not about some Diane Ravitch lovefest. We've had these discussions before on here.

I know. Really. :rolleyes:

Growth Mindset would be very nice, thank you very much. ;)

 

I am not going to move to Finland. I am not going to establish a new system of education in the US.

Or start socialism in the U.S. :lol:

 

I like the idea of having some positive influences to discuss, instead of "neh neh, public school students are all idiots" or whatever. I need some examples of what TO DO, not just what not to. And it cannot all just involve some fabled Victorian or GrecoRoman past where some rich boys learned Latin. I need something a bit more.

This. So very, very true. Thank you for a really brilliant post. :D

[stripe]

Or start socialism in the U.S. :lol:

Or a mass skin and hair bleaching campaign?

 

This. So very, very true. Thank you for a really brilliant post. :D

Aw. Thank you.

[Negin]

Or a mass skin and hair bleaching campaign?

:smilielol5: :lol: :smilielol5:

I almost choked on my water. :D :grouphug: :D

[mommaduck]

I just encountered this sentiment for the first time last week. Homeschooling is very rare in my area, and usually people look at me like I am a freak and am going to damage my kids. It was strange for me to have someone understand that the public schools were not able to meet the needs of my kids, yet still not agree with the decision to homeschool.

 

He felt that I had an obligation to society to remain in the public school and work on school reform. Ahh, yeah. Did I mention that the man was childless?

Yep, I've heard this. The subject was actually about public cyber, but the sentiment basically leaned all the way into homeschooling. We owe the local schools our kids so they can get more money. Yeah, that's real nice coming from a lady whose kid is in one of the best school districts in the area and saying it to me who is in one of the the worst school districts and slated for the one of the worst inner city schools in that district.

[Rhonda in TX]

They're illegal. Think that's gonna happen in the USA?

 

apples to oranges.

 

This is a very important point to make. Finland works very, very hard to make everybody the same. I believe the US values individuality, including different cultures, too much for it to work here.

 

However, I think if we had the same expectations of our teachers, and dropped the testing, education would greatly improve here.

[butterflymommy]

When people talk about Finland's homogeneity it's not necessarily an issue of race. Finland has one of the highest rates of mother/father led households in the world, whereas the US has one of the highest rates of single mother led households in the world. Family income is probably a factor as well.

[stripe]

Of all families with children in Finland in 1994, 17% were single-parent families, with 15% headed by the mother and 2% by the father (Statistics Finland, 1995). Many family-political debates in Norway are related to the category single mothers/fathers and these families' connection to the public support apparatus. 7.9% of all families in Norway are families consisting of mother and child, only 1.5% of all families consist of father and child.*

 

http://www.helsinki.fi/science/xantippa/wee/weetext/wee233.html

 

Here is a chart of different regions of Finland's single parent + child(ren) rate in 2009

Examined by municipality, the relative numbers of one-parent families with underage children are highest in Sottunga (45%), Helsinki (29%), and Hartola and Maarianhamina (28%). Luoto (4%) and Yli-Ii (6%) have the lowest relative numbers of one-parent families with underage children in Mainland Finland.

http://www.stat.fi/til/perh/2009/02/perh_2009_02_2010-11-30_kat_004_en.html

[LuvingLife]

Our educational systems are so unorganized nowadays that it was one of the reasons why I am homeschooled. I hated the constant testing and how is was always turned into this huge deal, we were tested at least 4 times a school year and I have serious test anxiety!! I work myself up to the point I feel like vomiting and staying home, the moment I was I homeschooled and discovered I did not have to constantly be tested relaxed my nerves and I have little to no anxiety at all anymore. My friend who moved to New Zeeland this past year has described how excellent the education system is there and she doesn't ever want to move again.

[mirth]

From whatever sort of mindset you want to call mine, even I can see that Ravitch in a book review has managed to gloss over a key point on the author's view:

 

 

• Dr. Sahlberg puts high-quality teachers at the heart of Finland’s education success story.
  
• They all have a master's degree.
  
• Every high school teacher must be proficient in at least 2 foreign languages.
  
• It is harder to get teaching than into law or med schools.
  

 

 

The only thing DR concedes after pounding the poverty angle: "So selective and demanding is the process that virtually every teacher is well prepared [in Finland]." Whoa ... virtually every teacher is well-prepared?? What a concept! This alone will kill any technology transfer of the Finnish model to the U.S. Contrast this with the many personal stories and horror stories of typed on WTM on just how dumb and ... dare I say it ... zero-growth minded many U.S. education majors appear to be. Just yesterday I was speaking with a recent teacher cert recipient who, in looking for her first teaching job, was lamenting how she only wants to teach "educateable" children who are nice -- children who are smart to begin with, and thus do not have issues and personal problems and are receptive to her [enshrined] abilities to teach, blah, blah, blah. This is the kind of trash thinking that current American pedagogy is churning out.

 

If any country's model for anything offers hope, that is a good thing. I'm not the only who believes that teacher quality is the cornerstone of this hope -- not only in Finland, but also Singapore, South Korea (all the heavy hitters). It is really not hard a concept to get your arms around, but definitely a hard one to sell to the egotistical, bloated and entrenched.

Edited February 16, 2012 by mirth

[Margaret in GA]

http://www.helsinki.fi/science/xantippa/wee/weetext/wee233.html

 

Here is a chart of different regions of Finland's single parent + child(ren) rate in 2009

 

http://www.stat.fi/til/perh/2009/02/perh_2009_02_2010-11-30_kat_004_en.html

 

 

Will you quit posting statistics and non-biased information, please? It's getting in the way of my knee jerk reaction to the article. ;) I mean, everyone knows we can never reform public education here because this country is too big and too diverse. :tongue_smilie:

 

Seriously, thank you for the link. I'm not a big DR fan myself, but her book The Death and Life of the Great American School System made me really stop and think about some of the conclusions I have wrongly reached about school choice, charter schools, and small schools. I've been screaming we need small high schools now for years. And it's more complicated than that. I still say small is best, but it's not the silver bullet I once believed

 

Margaret

[Negin]

I've always loved you, Negin!

I hope Mental Multivitamin joins in this discussion. She has had some GREAT blog posts on Finnish education.

Dot, you are so sweet :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:.

Thank you. I always love your posts and wish that you would post more often. :D Me being slightly selfish. :lol:

Yes, I think I recall Mental Multivitamin posting about this before. Wish she would.

[stripe]

Will you quit posting statistics and non-biased information, please? It's getting in the way of my knee jerk reaction to the article. ;) I mean, everyone knows we can never reform public education here because this country is too big and too diverse. :tongue_smilie:

 

Seriously, thank you for the link. I'm not a big DR fan myself,

 

 

ha! Anyway it's just a review by Ravitch of a book written by someone else. I liked the Finland Phenomenon but the guy who was narrating it got on my nerves. I wanted less of him and more of the Finns!

[Ester Maria]

...

 

So, that being said, why on Earth would one be impressed by those cold regions in which classical and humanities education as we know it in Southern / Western / Central Europe is basically unheard of? I would never subject my child to such a system, because I view education primarily as a transmission of culture, and no PISA results in the world would make me view such an education favorably.

 

Besides, I find the "homey" atmosphere of those schools creepy.

What is romantic about a youth without cutting school not to be interrogated and making up excuses for absences, without arguing with professors, without sabotaging exams, without passionate discussions... Like, they take all the fun out of it and make it so calm and sterile and all "child-friendly" and all... blah. Not cool. :D

Edited February 16, 2012 by Ester Maria
nm, silly comment lol