Rigor threads

[Audrey]

Ah, I totally agree. Do you think, though, that she would have required less of children wiThout those needs? Her own children were in her classes. Or just making it out of the ghetto was need enough? Does a child of privledge need less of an education because of the oppurtunity they have?

 

I don't know that she would have expected less...perhaps even more? If that were possible, she is an amazing teacher.

 

 

That's a hard question to answer, of course. I think she saw kids for who they were, where they were. I try to do that with my own kid. I can't be concerned what other parents are choosing for their kids because it has no bearing on my kid.

 

We all make our choices on how high to jump based on how high we see our hurdles are.

[Ester Maria]

Colleen:

 

cultura, ae - "cultivation (ex.: of the mind)" - noun. But, for the sake of this post, I can turn it back into EM's verb and say, "so, culture the minds of your kids"?

The verb is colo, ere, colui, cultum.

 

Culturus, a, um is a future participle for the one who actively plans to cultivate certain things.

[PollyOR]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. :)

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen:

 

 

The verb is colo, ere, colui, cultum.

 

Culturus, a, um is a future participle for the one who actively plans to cultivate certain things.

 

My apologies. When I looked up the root of the verb form of culture in my English dictionary, it only showed cultura, ae as a Latin root. But, did I understand the gist of what you were showing us? That it's an active thing to do; to till, to cultivate?

[Happy2BaMom]

Ester Maria,

 

I am going to print out your post and laminate it. It so says what I think and feel and have been so unable to express. Thank you.

 

We are rigorous hsers, but I firmly believe in being humane about it...if my son is truly tired, or needs a break, he gets one. He actually really enjoys school, and even with our level of rigor, he is done in 3 - 3.5 hours (in third grade) and he has the rest of the day free to play or pursue his interests.

 

I AM concerned about what other hsers do (although I do my best to not invest emotional energy into things I cannot change), not only from the big picture "society/culture" issue, but because I want hsers to be able to be taken seriously in the academic leagues. Perhaps my children will not want to go to college. Perhaps they will want to be farmers - what a wondrous calling. But, given the low standards I see held by so many hsers around me (more on this in a minute), I do worry that it will be HARDER for my children to get into the college they may want. What if someone does a follow up study and finds that some group of hs students, in general, are testing BEHIND ps students? Don't you think that will be pasted on the front copy of every educational magazine/piece of lit out there and trumpeted on every corner of major media outlets?

 

You might laugh at that possibility, but I was helping out at my son's educational program (where students are 80% hsed, attend enrichment classes one day/week), and I had to distribute publicity notices in every parent's mailbox. Testing notices were given out right before I got there to every parent who had a child who tested below the 40%ile in math, and/or below the 50%ile in reading (so I couldn't help but see who had a notice when I was filling the mailboxes, if you follow). From my rough count, nearly 40% of the families had some child who fell into one or both of those categories. I was dismayed. How can you provide one-on-one tutoring to a child - even part-time - and still have them be unable to match the average ps student??

 

There is already enough suspicion and judgment out there, enough disbelief that parents are "qualified" to educate their own children, w/o "us" (the general "us") providing an abundance of evidence that we are not.

 

Off my soapbox now.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Happy2BaMom
grammar

[elegantlion]

Ester Maria,

 

I am going to print out your post and laminate it. It so says what I think and feel and have been so unable to express. Thank you.

 

 

I printed it off, highlighted talking points, and left it for dh to read. He took it to work. :D

 

I read it to ds today and had him write out Do not cultivate mediocrity. Have him write out definitions for cultivate and mediocre, then posted it on the fridge. I needed to hear it as much as him. It's been a long week.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I printed it off, highlighted talking points, and left it for dh to read. He took it to work. :D

 

I read it to ds today and had him write out Do not cultivate mediocrity. Have him write out definitions for cultivate and mediocre, then posted it on the fridge. I needed to hear it as much as him. It's been a long week.

 

I hope you'll post a photo of your fridge one of these days.

[elegantlion]

I hope you'll post a photo of your fridge one of these days.

 

I'm going to have to if y'all keep posting.

[Jenny in GA]

I know how you feel. None of the homeschoolers in my area that have high schoolers, at least the ones I've met, have much for standards and especially at the high school level. They look at me like I have lost my mind because gasp, we homeschool 200 days per year or there abouts, teach real math and science,

 

What does this mean? Are other people teaching "fake" math and science?

 

What are these other high schoolers doing? I have always been curious what homeschooling a high schooler looks like -- not here, but amongst "most homeschoolers."

[Jenny in GA]

This is just the thread I needed. I've been having doubts lately because most homeschoolers around me shun academic rigor. I'll be following this thread. My kids thrive on a rigorous program with fun activities thrown in.

 

I'm coming to this thread late, so maybe this has already been addressed ...

 

But what does it mean to "shun academic rigor"? Are these people sitting around watching TV all day?

 

What are the common things (or maybe even not-so-common) that you see other homeschoolers do that makes it seem like they have no rigor -- or even blatantly shun it??

[elegantlion]

What does this mean? Are other people teaching "fake" math and science?

 

What are these other high schoolers doing? I have always been curious what homeschooling a high schooler looks like -- not here, but amongst "most homeschoolers."

 

What I've seen is only teaching "biblical" science. Nothing that mentions evolution or discusses reproduction.

 

Math: I've seen where parents do not teach math above their comfort level, which many times stops at alg I or II, maybe geometry. They fill the math requirements with consumer math or business math, even if the child is willing and capable of going higher.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Jenny, I can't tell you how many homeschooling families I know that have no intention of studying any math above Algebra I. The rest of high school math is "Consumer Math" or "Business Math." On the science front, they use Apologia but not above Biology (so no Chemistry or Physics), and not as designed. Many families do zero labs, for example, and allow open-book tests.

 

In these families of my acquaintance the boys go to Bible colleges with low entrance standards, or to vocational schools, and their girls don't go to college at all.

 

I've even seen the philosophy about skipping labs and doing open-book tests on these very forums.

[angela in ohio]

I'm coming to this thread late, so maybe this has already been addressed ...

 

But what does it mean to "shun academic rigor"? Are these people sitting around watching TV all day?

 

What are the common things (or maybe even not-so-common) that you see other homeschoolers do that makes it seem like they have no rigor -- or even blatantly shun it??

 

There are three categories in the HSers I know IRL: One shuns education because you can't be Godly/moral and educated; you have to pick one. One lacks it because life gets in the way constantly or they didn't really intend to homeschool but they didn't like the other options, either; they are basically truants who claim to be homeschooling. One shuns it in theory as a superior academic and child-raising choice, but in reality they just end up watching TV and playing video games all day.

 

The first and the last are the ones who exert pressure on others to do it their way.

[ElizaG]

I'm coming to this thread late, so maybe this has already been addressed ...

 

But what does it mean to "shun academic rigor"? Are these people sitting around watching TV all day?

 

What are the common things (or maybe even not-so-common) that you see other homeschoolers do that makes it seem like they have no rigor -- or even blatantly shun it??

Apart from the extreme scenarios, the subject gets VERY touchy and difficult to discuss, because our views of what's rigorous enough depend heavily on our families' cultural values, as well as our visions of our own children's likely academic potential.

 

Family A's "marginally acceptable education"

= Family B's "rigorous liberal arts curriculum"

= Family C's "elitist Eurocentrism"

= Family D's "out of touch with economic realities"

= Family E's "fast track to H-E-double-hockey-sticks"

 

and so on. Even among those who've read and appreciated TWTM, some think it's way too intense, some go beyond what's suggested, and some end up doing other things entirely. So most people are tending to speak in vague terms, to avoid getting into a major conflagration. :tongue_smilie:

 

I think the big question, for me anyway, is: how do we tell if our curriculum is rigorous enough for our family?

 

[ETA: I forgot Family F's "taking away their childhood"... I'm sure many of us have heard that one!]

Edited February 2, 2012 by Eleanor

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm coming to this thread late, so maybe this has already been addressed ...

 

But what does it mean to "shun academic rigor"? Are these people sitting around watching TV all day?

 

What are the common things (or maybe even not-so-common) that you see other homeschoolers do that makes it seem like they have no rigor -- or even blatantly shun it??

 

In the case of one friend, yes, it did involve more video than I think was a good idea. What concerned me in their case, wasn't that they watched a lot of videos, but that the videos were in place of reading. The reading tended to be skipped, because it was hard. It was hard, because it was unfamiliar. It was unfamiliar because they spent so much time on videos instead.

 

So it is becoming a self-perpetuating cycle. I am concerned for this particular family because she is concerned that her son is now being left behind as they read late middle school and high school aged challenges. What could have been a slow and steady accretion of knowledge, the way that a pearl forms over a gritty piece of sand, is instead an item of concern, panic and remediation. (We've both moved away from the town where we met, and only communicate via the internet. She has initiated several "what would you do" type conversations. Her son is a bright kid with a love of science, but without a systematic approach to learning the skills that might help him excell in it. I sense a frustration when I "chat" with her.)

 

This is where I have to guard my own heart attitudes. I have high goals. But there have also been plenty of times that I've avoided what caused conflict or required hard work or wasn't immediately successful. But often the only way through to proficiency is through a whole lot of less than proficient efforts.

 

It's the same theory behind doing a Couch to 5k approach to learning running. You may not be able to go out and run 2+ miles. But you can probably run for 60 seconds. Then do it again. This is the logic I see behind a lot of the PHP materials. Not that the child memorizes everything the first time. But that they gradually learn to write, learn to think through history, and learn grammar.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Sebastian (a lady)

[Crimson Wife]

I'm coming to this thread late, so maybe this has already been addressed ...

 

But what does it mean to "shun academic rigor"? Are these people sitting around watching TV all day?

 

What are the common things (or maybe even not-so-common) that you see other homeschoolers do that makes it seem like they have no rigor -- or even blatantly shun it??

 

I see a lot of anti-intellectualism in a couple of segments of the HS community. One seems to do it for religious reasons ("I'd rather my kids get into Heaven than Harvard" as if the two destinations were mutually exclusive) and the other seems to do it for crunchy-granola reasons (the radical unschoolers).

 

Have you ever ready anything by Sandra Dodd? I have definitely noticed a bit of an anti-intellectual tone in much of her writing, especially on the topic of giftedness. This antipathy towards academic rigor is fairly common among unschoolers of my acquaintance.

[laundrycrisis]

Without getting too specific, I am meeting people who tell me that I am too uptight, ruining all the fun of homeschooling, and that there is no point to requiring formal academic study of the 3Rs or any other academic subject anyway because doing so is pointless - the kid will learn it when he is ready, if he wants to, and otherwise it is a waste of my time, and don't worry, there is no way he will get to 18 and not be able to read, write and do basic math (that never happens, right ?). Because there is just no way he can avoid learning those things if he is a relaxed, happy kid who is given a rich learning environment and freedom to explore. :blink: They are really not concerned with their school-aged kids being very behind grade level in basic skills. They are not concerned about the possibility of real learning disabilities going unrecognized and unhelped. They trust that their child will tell them if he/she is struggling with something (and not just avoid it and go do something that is more fun and less hard.). They tell me "I was like you with my oldest too". :001_huh: They imply that once I get hit with the clue stick, I will see the sense in "letting this all go". They do not seem the least bit concerned about taking it to another level as the child ages. The philosophy is "if kid is interested, kid will figure out how to pursue what he/she wants". There is no thought of "if kid decides at 18 in hindsight that some academics might have been a good idea, he/she is going to have a lot of remedial catching up to do and may end up feeling really bad about him/herself and that homeschooling this way really didn't get the job done". (I know (remotely) one person IRL who has had this experience with her oldest and changed her course with her younger kids to at least include some basic academic skills each day. ) This is the mindset I am encountering.

 

Beyond that, there are no high hopes for what the kids might do in their teen years and beyond. My own experience was that I barely got through high school math - it required a lot of struggle and a private tutor - and during high school I had only one glimpse of "real" learning, in a chemistry class with an excellent but strict teacher. That was the first time I felt inspired to push myself and reach for more. Getting to college was such a wonderful change for me. Finally, the classes were not drudgery. It was as if the extra challenge of the higher difficulty level made them easier because they were calling for something more like real thinking. College was when I woke up and started to learn. I hope to get our kids to that point at a younger age, perhaps finishing a diploma and starting junior college during what are normally the high school years. I hope to have them challenged and reaching for more every day so they never feel like they are slogging through something pointless. It's not pointless when you are really working at it and improving on your own personal best. So when I hear others saying it is pointless and boring and mean to be challenging their kids with something as empty as academics, and it is better just to let them do what they want and "explore the real world", I am sad. I think they are passing up a great opportunity to give their kids some self-knowledge and confidence that could benefit them their entire lives.

Edited February 2, 2012 by laundrycrisis

[justamouse]

I'm coming to this thread late, so maybe this has already been addressed ...

 

But what does it mean to "shun academic rigor"? Are these people sitting around watching TV all day?

 

What are the common things (or maybe even not-so-common) that you see other homeschoolers do that makes it seem like they have no rigor -- or even blatantly shun it??

 

I see a lot of anti-intellectualism in a couple of segments of the HS community. One seems to do it for religious reasons ("I'd rather my kids get into Heaven than Harvard" as if the two destinations were mutually exclusive) and the other seems to do it for crunchy-granola reasons (the radical unschoolers).

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

I can still hear a few choice lines ringing in my ears. Imagine a scorn filled voice, "Well you know God uses the fools to confound the wise."

 

As if that's an excuse to keep your kid uneducated-so God can use him. My BP is rising just remembering it. And his other step kid, who was in college and who was a perpetual student because he loved school so much, was constantly undermined. Looking back now, I can't imagine the strength it took him to withstand that constant onslaught. How God would never use him because he was too educated, how God would pass him over.

 

ALL of intellectualism was scorned. Sciences, especially, but just even plain old reading.

 

I can't explain the disgust this memory leaves me with.

 

Then they took their kids and moved them to North Carolina to live in the mountains, the one kid was smart as a whip but only ever got as far as being his father's apprentice. Some split at that point and went to college on their own.

 

The youngest kid landed on his feet, has a great business, is making lots of $ for himself, he's got quite the entrepreneurial spirit--but he doesn't speak to his father at all.

 

But though that's just one family as an example, the whole church community was the same way.

[Audrey]

Jenny, I can't tell you how many homeschooling families I know that have no intention of studying any math above Algebra I. The rest of high school math is "Consumer Math" or "Business Math." On the science front, they use Apologia but not above Biology (so no Chemistry or Physics), and not as designed. Many families do zero labs, for example, and allow open-book tests.

 

In these families of my acquaintance the boys go to Bible colleges with low entrance standards, or to vocational schools, and their girls don't go to college at all.

 

I've even seen the philosophy about skipping labs and doing open-book tests on these very forums.

 

You know... I know a lot of public school parents who could care less if their kid takes anything higher than basic algebra. The high school course listings are full of consumer math and business math courses to satisfy the math requirement.

 

I don't agree with this, of course... just stating that the philosophy seems to be prevalent regardless of method of education.

[Soror]

fwiw--- Around here I haven't ran into anyone that thinks education is evil or such. Well, perhaps some might think that but I've never heard it verbalized. What I do know and have heard from those I know who hs is not so much that they are against academics it is that life gets in the way, constantly. There is no goals in mind and just haphazard progress because of lack of planning and inconsistent follow through. I have one friend who labels herself an "unschooler" of sorts but it seems this just means she doesn't want to do any schooling because it takes up too much time. Another who tells me everything is school and just seems to let life get in the way.

 

When I've talked to others about high standards or being rigorous I hear in response, yes me too, I make them do 2 pages a day in each subject or some such thing. The amount of worksheets done is not indicative of the rigor level of your hs (imo). The amount of physical, tangible output really means little to me at this point to me. I'm sure it will as they age but we can push things very hard without doing a single worksheet.

Edited February 3, 2012 by soror

[Colleen in NS]

Without getting too specific, I am meeting people who tell me that I am too uptight, ruining all the fun of homeschooling, and that there is no point to requiring formal academic study of the 3Rs or any other academic subject anyway because doing so is pointless - the kid will learn it when he is ready, if he wants to, and otherwise it is a waste of my time, and don't worry, there is no way he will get to 18 and not be able to read, write and do basic math (that never happens, right ?). Because there is just no way he can avoid learning those things if he is a relaxed, happy kid who is given a rich learning environment and freedom to explore...The philosophy is "if kid is interested, kid will figure out how to pursue what he/she wants". ...This is the mindset I am encountering.

 

It's a mindset that comes from their particular worldview. You can't change their worldview, but you can live out yours. :) I greatly sympathize with your OP.

[GoVanGogh]

I am late to the thread, but have been reading with much interest as this has been heavy on my mind lately. Ester Marie took the words right out of my head:

I know exactly what is the type of person you have in mind, I know them IRL. Run away from those in big leaps. Talk about these issues with people who will lift you higher rather than drag you down. Keep your children, in their formative years, as away from those attitudes as you would keep them away from morally very questionable choices. Surround them with people and ideas who will lift them higher, to the maximum extent of your possibility. Do not cultivate mediocrity. It will grow all around you, but you do not have to cultivate it in your little corner of the world where you live with your family.

How does this work out when one of your friends stops homeschooling but doesn't enroll her children in a school, either? They aren't unschooling. They just aren't doing anything. :001_huh: I don't feel like I can suddenly shun my friend, but talking with her about homeschooling has become taboo. She says she is burnt out and just needs a break. But nearly a year of doing nothing? :tongue_smilie:

Ester Marie, I really appreciated the bolded part above. Words I needed to hear.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

You know... I know a lot of public school parents who could care less if their kid takes anything higher than basic algebra. The high school course listings are full of consumer math and business math courses to satisfy the math requirement.

 

I don't agree with this, of course... just stating that the philosophy seems to be prevalent regardless of method of education.

 

:svengo:

 

Is this recent? Even in my poor little public school we had to take three years of real math in the late 80's/early 90's. I took Alg. I, Alg. II, and Geometry. That was the bare minimum to graduate.

[Soror]

How does this work out when one of your friends stops homeschooling but doesn't enroll her children in a school, either? They aren't unschooling. They just aren't doing anything. :001_huh: I don't feel like I can suddenly shun my friend, but talking with her about homeschooling has become taboo. She says she is burnt out and just needs a break. But nearly a year of doing nothing? :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm probably not qualified to answer this but I don't talk hs'ing to all my friends that hs. I have however let my one friend know that I thought she need to be making school more of a priority. I guess that wouldn't win me friends around here but when said friend tells me of goals of schooling and such and then complains they are not happening I put it back on her. I also pushed her hard on owning up to learning difficulties with her child and after a year of it she finally pursued it.

 

I did have another friend ask me once what if the world as we know it comes to an end will you still care so much about schooling- as in to her she believes this so I believe puts little value on schooling as she doesn't consider it a practical skill. I told her yes, even more so then, an education to me is not just some desire to have my kids end up in some high-powered career. So, all that being the case I bite my tongue at times and try to find others to talk to who share similar goals and only talk about things we have in common. My friend that is all about practicality I talk to her about teaching life skills and such some, although she doesn't seem to do this much either.

[Audrey]

:svengo:

 

Is this recent? Even in my poor little public school we had to take three years of real math in the late 80's/early 90's. I took Alg. I, Alg. II, and Geometry. That was the bare minimum to graduate.

 

It was that way (requiring real math) when I was in school too (slightly older than you ;)).

 

I think the trend is going toward having more of these types of "filler" math classes in the schools. I don't know why. :confused:

[Crimson Wife]

:svengo:

 

Is this recent? Even in my poor little public school we had to take three years of real math in the late 80's/early 90's. I took Alg. I, Alg. II, and Geometry. That was the bare minimum to graduate.

 

The Gen Ed track at my high school was Algebra 1A, Algebra 1B, and then Business Math. My understanding is that the state H.S. exit exam only tests math up through Algebra 1.

 

ETA: I graduated in '95.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It was that way (requiring real math) when I was in school too (slightly older than you ;)).

 

I think the trend is going toward having more of these types of "filler" math classes in the schools. I don't know why. :confused:

 

The Gen Ed track at my high school was Algebra 1A, Algebra 1B, and then Business Math. My understanding is that the state H.S. exit exam only tests math up through Algebra 1.

 

ETA: I graduated in '95.

 

Thank you. I'm off to do some research...

[wapiti]

It was that way (requiring real math) when I was in school too (slightly older than you ;)).

 

I think the trend is going toward having more of these types of "filler" math classes in the schools. I don't know why. :confused:

 

My own personal guess, without a shred of evidence, is that this is the result of fuzzy math (i.e., fuzzy math of the Math Wars). I wonder whether there are larger numbers of students than in the past who are unprepared for real math.

[JadeOrchidSong]

I love this thread. My older ds doesn't have as good memory as I or his younger brother. I tell him that it is no excuse for not remembering things he should and that he can compensate by studying harder. I ask him to work on his Chinese characters every morning before we start school. Diligence is virtue. Laziness is not.

[angela in ohio]

:svengo:

 

Is this recent? Even in my poor little public school we had to take three years of real math in the late 80's/early 90's. I took Alg. I, Alg. II, and Geometry. That was the bare minimum to graduate.

 

Alg I, Alg II, Geometry, and one additional credit are currently required for graduation in Michigan.

[angela in ohio]

When I've talked to others about high standards or being rigorous I hear in response, yes me too, I make them do 2 pages a day in each subject or some such thing. The amount of worksheets done to me is not indicative of the rigor level of your hs. The amount of physical, tangible output really means little to me at this point to me. I'm sure it will as they age but we can push things very hard without doing a single worksheet.

 

This!!!!!! The only HSers I meet who claim rigor are doing piles of worksheets, and then we have nothing in common either. We even run into this in co-ops: well, this class is very rigorous because they do pages of worksheets (in a high school course.) Aaarrrggghhh!!! :lol:

[Halcyon]

This!!!!!! The only HSers I meet who claim rigor are doing piles of worksheets, and then we have nothing in common either. We even run into this in co-ops: well, this class is very rigorous because they do pages of worksheets (in a high school course.) Aaarrrggghhh!!! :lol:

 

 

:iagree:

[angela in ohio]

How God would never use him because he was too educated, how God would pass him over.

 

ALL of intellectualism was scorned. Sciences, especially, but just even plain old reading.

 

I can't explain the disgust this memory leaves me with.

 

I had this conversation at a homeschool meeting with a woman. Ugh. I asked, "So no Christian doctors or lawyers or teachers, then?" Nope. Only entrepreneurs and farmers.

[elegantlion]

:svengo:

 

Is this recent? Even in my poor little public school we had to take three years of real math in the late 80's/early 90's. I took Alg. I, Alg. II, and Geometry. That was the bare minimum to graduate.

 

I made it through high school (85 grad) with Alg I & II and one semester of recordkeeping. I signed up for Geometry my senior year, but I was one of the two seniors in the class. The teacher spent half the first week putting down seniors and telling all the freshman how great they were. I'm not sure she noticed that I dropped her class. Plus I graduated at semester and knew I wasn't going to college. I don't remember if I had a full math credit in 9th or not, but I know I needed the semester of math in 12th to graduate.

[ElizaG]

What I do know and have heard from those I know who hs is not so much that they are against academics it is that life gets in the way, constantly. There is no goals in mind and just haphazard progress because of lack of planning and inconsistent follow through. I have one friend who labels herself an "unschooler" of sorts but it seems this just means she doesn't want to do any schooling because it takes up too much time. Another who tells me everything is school and just seems to let life get in the way.

Yes, that too. "Take it easy; of course you're not getting anything done, [you're pregnant / you just had a baby / you have a toddler / you just moved, etc., etc.]. Just snuggle on the couch and read books for a season." It sounds reasonable at first, but the "season" can end up lasting for years and years. And even the books can sometimes go by the wayside. :tongue_smilie:

 

Ester Maria, thank you for saying that the purpose of education is the passing on of culture. I was thinking of quoting pretty much the same phrase from the first page of a book I'm reading. The author, the late Jesuit Fr. William McGucken, goes on to rant about the foolishness of compulsory high school (this was around 1940, when it was still being debated in the USA). Too bad we can't get him on here. Your post was all Kumbaya and fluffy kittens by comparison. :lol:

[wapiti]

Ester Maria, thank you for saying that the purpose of education is the passing on of culture. I was thinking of quoting pretty much the same phrase from the first page of a book I'm reading. The author, the late Jesuit Fr. William McGucken, goes on to rant about the foolishness of compulsory high school (this was around 1940, when it was still being debated in the USA). Too bad we can't get him on here. Your post was all Kumbaya and fluffy kittens by comparison. :lol:

:lol:

 

Thanks for citing this author - I might need to get this.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Ester Maria, thank you for saying that the purpose of education is the passing on of culture. I was thinking of quoting pretty much the same phrase from the first page of a book I'm reading. The author, the late Jesuit Fr. William McGucken, goes on to rant about the foolishness of compulsory high school (this was around 1940, when it was still being debated in the USA). Too bad we can't get him on here. Your post was all Kumbaya and fluffy kittens by comparison. :lol:

 

Do you mean this book title?

 

The Jesuits and Education: The Society's Teaching Principles and Practice, Especially in Secondary Education in the United States

[angela in ohio]

:lol:

 

Thanks for citing this author - I might need to get this. I'd like to get DH excited about the local Jesuit high school. (He's on board, but his only passing comments have been about tuition, of course.)

 

Have hope! Dh was the same way about the private school dd will attend next year in the beginning. But he came around. :D

Edited February 3, 2012 by angela in ohio

[ElizaG]

Do you mean this book title?

 

The Jesuits and Education: The Society's Teaching Principles and Practice, Especially in Secondary Education in the United States

No, I'm pretty sure it's The Catholic Way in Education (though I've misplaced it at the moment). But the one you've mentioned is better IMO, and has the advantage of being still in print. :)

Edited February 3, 2012 by Eleanor

[arghmatey]

This may have been mentioned somewhere up thread...

 

For all you Johnnie wannabes, there's also a Catholic version, Thomas Aquinas College, in California.

 

St. John's is a lovely and luxurious experience.

[wapiti]

No, I'm pretty sure it's The Catholic Way in Education (though I've misplaced it at the moment).

 

It must be this one: Catholic Way in Education; I think there's a sale at abebooks. Oh wait, those are two different publishing dates - interesting.

Edited February 3, 2012 by wapiti

[ElizaG]

It must be this one: Catholic Way in Education; I think there's a sale at abebooks. Oh wait, those are two different publishing dates - interesting.

I wish I could find mine; I think it's in between those two dates. Maybe he kept rewriting it as he got older and grumpier. ;)

[Bang!Zoom!]

This may have been mentioned somewhere up thread...

 

For all you Johnnie wannabes, there's also a Catholic version, Thomas Aquinas College, in California.

 

St. John's is a lovely and luxurious experience.

 

Was that you AM that not too long ago posted about the Great Books on the Thomas Aquinas site?

 

If so, thanks, I spent gobs of time there -really good stuff. Not kitten food by a long shot.

[Greenmama2]

[ And because they do not want anyone else to be excellent if they themselves are not. I have found it extremely difficult and overwhelming to attempt to discuss education with this type of person, so I do the bean dip thing.

Fabulous. Thank you.

[creekland]

My own personal guess, without a shred of evidence, is that this is the result of fuzzy math (i.e., fuzzy math of the Math Wars). I wonder whether there are larger numbers of students than in the past who are unprepared for real math.

 

It's "worked" at our school. :glare: Students are now far more underprepared than they ever were.

 

We now have a "College Algebra" class (the kind that is used in our local community college and is considered a remedial class by many 4 year Universities if heading toward a math dependent major. This is the ONLY traditional math class in our school that uses a non-fuzzy math book. Kids struggle with the course.

 

The "interesting" thing about it? It has the exact same content as my Lial's Pre-Calculus book... and these students have had (and passed) Pre-Calculus with CPM math (fuzzy math). Of course, most will also tell you they didn't learn a thing in Pre-Calc and NONE recognize it as the same material.

 

Then there are those who have totally given up on math before even trying College Algebra due to not getting fuzzy math and feeling they are terrible at math. They may or may not be. I'd love to rewind and try them with a regular text. I suspect many would have done well.

[justamouse]

Do you mean this book title?

 

The Jesuits and Education: The Society's Teaching Principles and Practice, Especially in Secondary Education in the United States

 

 

lol, I looked it up too, and tucked it in my cart. You didn't press the magic button before I did, did you? ;)

[laundrycrisis]

Then there are those who have totally given up on math before even trying College Algebra due to not getting fuzzy math and feeling they are terrible at math. They may or may not be. I'd love to rewind and try them with a regular text. I suspect many would have done well.

 

I was one of these. When I was taking remedial trig in college, the TA teaching the class recognized that I had the problem of thinking that math was "just hard" and that I probably wasn't smart enough to do it. Both of my parents believed this about themselves and said that I "took after them". In many ways, she saved me from a lifetime of believing that I couldn't tackle difficult academic things. I ended up with an engineering degree ! She was still around campus by the time I was in junior and senior level engineering classes, and I was able to thank her.

 

I suppose that my own baggage about my narrow escape contributes to my feelings toward those who teach their kids that academics aren't important, and it is more important for them to just do whatever they feel like every day. I think that down the road, many of these kids may struggle with a lack of confidence about being able to learn "hard" things through study and practice.

[Bang!Zoom!]

lol, I looked it up too, and tucked it in my cart. You didn't press the magic button before I did, did you? ;)

 

Naw, not this time lucky thang...I have five very scary books going right now as it is.

 

Norms & Nobility

Climbing Parnassus

Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student

Increasing Achievement with the Trivium of Classical Education

Wisdom and Eloquence

 

I'm in enough pain as it is...lol..

[Colleen in NS]

...I had the problem of thinking that math was "just hard" and that I probably wasn't smart enough to do it. ...In many ways, she saved me from a lifetime of believing that I couldn't tackle difficult academic things.

 

Do I ever understand this! I made it through Alg. I and II and Geometry, and then had to drop out of pre-cal after a couple of months of intensive effort, even staying after school for a month for help from the teacher. As one of the "brainy students" in my class, this was a huge blow to me. But I just didn't get it, and I couldn't keep up with it plus my other homework. Looking back I'm pretty sure it's because I didn't *really* get the previous maths I'd studied (except Geometry - I loved the whole shapes and dimensional and proofs aspect). I did think I wasn't smart enough for math after that. It's only after doing a WTM-style education with my kids these past eight years, plus reading on the boards here, that I think I *could* tackle math and understand it. I know now that it's a lot of hard work, but if I put my mind to it, I could do it. Which is why I like to hear about how others conduct "rigourous" education in their homes. It encourages me to keep going.

[Guest submarines]

I just want to say that every time I see the thread's title I read it as "rigor mortis". I know, I know I should stop watching detective dramas. :001_huh: