Rigor threads

[Bang!Zoom!]

Can I just tell you Melissa how much I appreciate & admire you?

 

Again.

 

:) Always good thoughts from you. Thanks.

 

Really.

 

I think later tonight when I do my "how did I do today?" check, I'll print those out and turn those quotes into bookmarks. They are, as concepts, bulls-eye.

 

I think you are a most esteemed archer this morning. :)

Edited February 1, 2012 by one*mom

[Halcyon]

If this is the new working definition of 'rigor' I am entirely on board. Well said.

 

 

That's my definition, anyway. Feel free to spread the word :D

[WTMCassandra]

Reading those helps me to ignore the siren song that I sometimes feel surrounded by. When I need to retreat from what feels almost like peer pressure to do less, it helps to read encouragement from those who make the case for doing more.

 

. . .

 

Okay, in all seriousness....I struggle with feeling like a rarity for wanting to have an academic focus, for caring about the kids being at least at grade level, etc. I'm uncomfortable with feeling that perhaps this is a rare thing among homeschoolers now. I do my best not to think critical thoughts about others and to worry only about my own business. I care about where our kids are academically. This seems to qualify me as an oddball. :confused: Is anyone else having this experience ?

 

I have read the thread, but I would like to go back to the OP's question. Yes, I definitely see a peer pressure to do less, and most definitely YES I am an oddball.

 

Yet, my children are smart average and our level of homeschooling by this board's standards is nothing special.

 

I kind of laugh to myself at the people who think I am soooo strict and my children soooo advanced, because if they had any idea about some of the standards of this board, their heads would explode!

 

We all worry whether we are doing enough. I console myself with the knowledge that SWB has openly admitted she has these moments too and does a reality check with her mother. (I am sure she has them less often now that she has graduated a couple of her boys.)

 

I don't want a rising tide of mediocrity and an automatic superiority complex to lull homeschoolers into non-schooling. It does bother me that I see this in the homeschooling community. And there's also an element that says that making academics a priority automatically means that you are neglecting spiritual training. Um, no.

 

I think all I can do is keep my head down, do what I need to do for my own children, and continue being "weird" in the hopes that someone might be emboldened to be weird too. What's hilarious is that I'm weird in both secular and Christian circles. Equal opportunity weirdness.

[WTMCassandra]

Joseph Epstein on the subject of excellence:

High standards generally — about workmanship in the creation of objects, about what is owed in friendship, about the quality of art, and much else — far from being snobbish, are required to maintain decency in life. When the people who value these things are called snobs, the word is usually being used in a purely sour-grapes way. 'Elitist,' a politically super-charged word, is almost invariably another sour-grapes word, at least when used to denigrate people who insist on a high standard...

Delight in excellence is easily confused with snobbery by the ignorant.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[laundrycrisis]

Homeschooling comes in many different forms. No two homeschoolers are exactly alike.i do understand that many of us here feel like drill sergeants around most homeschoolers. That's ok. We just need to keep plugging along and know we are doing the best job we possibly can for our own kids.

 

I wonder if we can support each other in taking the "other" path without comparing ourselves to each other. In general, academics are good, and so is balance. Hard work is good. Doing your best and reaching for more are worth the effort. Structured study time and focus on steady progress do not crush children's joy in learning or rob them of their childhoods. I also don't care for elite comparing stuff. But I will say I am truly inspired by reading about some of the things some kids can accomplish and love. Even if my own never do those things. I am coming from a background of an education that was mediocre at best. It is inspiring to read about reaching for more.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Joseph Epstein on the subject of excellence:

High standards generally — about workmanship in the creation of objects, about what is owed in friendship, about the quality of art, and much else — far from being snobbish, are required to maintain decency in life. When the people who value these things are called snobs, the word is usually being used in a purely sour-grapes way. 'Elitist,' a politically super-charged word, is almost invariably another sour-grapes word, at least when used to denigrate people who insist on a high standard... Delight in excellence is easily confused with snobbery by the ignorant.

 

:iagree:

Thanks for the quote.

[Colleen in NS]

.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Colleen in NS
I've been given something else more helpful to ponder instead. Thanks, MMV.

[Sweetpeach]

I wonder if we can support each other in taking the "other" path without comparing ourselves to each other. In general, academics are good, and so is balance. Hard work is good. Doing your best and reaching for more are worth the effort. Structured study time and focus on steady progress do not crush children's joy in learning or rob them of their childhoods. I also don't care for elite comparing stuff. But I will say I am truly inspired by reading about some of the things some kids can accomplish and love. Even if my own never do those things. I am coming from a background of an education that was mediocre at best. It is inspiring to read about reaching for more.

 

Yes, these words are lovely.

Really nicely said.

The "comparing" game steals all my joy. There isn't one kid like another . . . and the path that is wonderful for this kid completely ruins another kid.

Warmly, Tricia

[justamouse]

 

If you seek inspiration, consider the wonderful Marva Collins:

Many of us can be excellent for a day, but we find a lifetime of excellence to be just a bit difficult. Good teachers leave their egos and problems at the door each morning. They become so immersed in the children they teach that they forget time, problems, who they are, or what they can't do. They believe that they exist for their students. They hear with their hearts, they see with their souls, and they teach with their conscience.

 

This kinda makes me laugh because her books would make other homeschooler's heads explode. :001_smile: When I see the word rigor, I think of her example.

 

Parker J. Palmer also defined the essence of teaching well:

Good teachers possess a capacity for connectedness. They are able to weave a complex web of connections among themselves, their subjects, and their students so that students can learn to weave a world for themselves. The methods used by these weavers vary widely: Socratic dialogues, laboratory experiments, collaborative problem solving, creative chaos. The connections made by good teachers are not in their methods but in their hearts -- meaning heart in its ancient sense, as the place where intellect and emotion and spirit and will converge in the human self.

 

 

Joseph Epstein on the subject of excellence:

High standards generally — about workmanship in the creation of objects, about what is owed in friendship, about the quality of art, and much else — far from being snobbish, are required to maintain decency in life. When the people who value these things are called snobs, the word is usually being used in a purely sour-grapes way. 'Elitist,' a politically super-charged word, is almost invariably another sour-grapes word, at least when used to denigrate people who insist on a high standard... Delight in excellence is easily confused with snobbery by the ignorant.

 

one*mom, I think you ought to print a few of these out, they're darn excellent.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

This kinda makes me laugh because her books would make other homeschooler's heads explode. :001_smile: When I see the word rigor, I think of her example.

 

Do you recommend her books? I've seen in some reviews that they are poorly written. What are your thoughts?

[justamouse]

Do you recommend her books? I've seen in some reviews that they are poorly written. What are your thoughts?

 

My thoughts are that I need a caffeine drip and mega doses of vitamins to keep up with her. ;)

 

I highly recommend her books. I think every teaching college in the US should drop thier How To Make a Letter Bulletin Board class, and read and dissect her books.

 

She took children who were severely learning disabled, and (some chewing their socks) and within a few years had them reading Chaucer and Shakespeare.

 

And, the remarkable part, and I think the aspect of her teaching that would get the most backlash, is how she spoke to her kids. Positively. Telling them she loved them, telling them how brilliant they were, and how she loved them so much she refused to let them fail. She touched them all the time. Hands on shoulders, hands on cheeks, lifting chins up. She didn't have a desk, she walked the class all day long. That's not to say that ONLY positive reinforcement makes all kids brilliant, but it was the sugar that made the medicine go down.

 

She, herself, was well educated (and not at college, though she was a graduate) she was self taught, and read, critically, a lot. She taught her students how to make connections. She gave them a true liberal arts education, and, her schools do not have phys ed, or art.

 

I think, perhaps, the bad reviews come from sour grapes teachers/parents who want her results without her effort and heart.

Edited February 1, 2012 by justamouse

[-M-]

Do you recommend her books? I've seen in some reviews that they are poorly written. What are your thoughts?

 

From my 9.06.2006 "On the nightstand entry" (re: Collins' "Ordinary" Children, Extraordinary Teachers and Values: Lighting the Candle of Excellence):

 

Chicago appropriated Collins as one of its treasures in the 1980s, as her Westside Preparatory School students captured national headlines with their academic achievements. I met her (in the literary, not personal, sense) early in our home education adventure: Every Chicago educator I encountered would, on learning what I was doing, ask, "Have you read Marva Collins?" Tired of replying, "No," I borrowed some books from the library. I reread the titles above over the weekend. If you seek inspiration in your teaching and learning this academic year, read them. Like Ron Clark (see our last "On the nightstand"), Collins writes plainly but enthusiastically about the call to teach well.

 

 

 

Many of us can be excellent for a day, but we find a lifetime of excellence to be just a bit difficult. Good teachers leave their egos and problems at the door each morning. They become so immersed in the children they teach that they forget time, problems, who they are, or what they can't do. They believe that they exist for their students. They hear with their hearts, they see with their souls, and they teach with their conscience.

Here's a challenge: This year, refuse to lower your expectations. Instead, raise them. And then exceed them. Enough of the whining and complaining and self-indulgence. Teach, **** it. Lead. Coach. Motivate. Inspire. Give your students the best that you have to offer every. single. day. Remember: The goal is a lifetime of excellence, not a day or two here and there. A lifetime. Begin, then, with raised expectations -- of yourself and of your students.

[CanaryMelody]

Here's a challenge: This year, refuse to lower your expectations. Instead, raise them. And then exceed them. Enough of the whining and complaining and self-indulgence. Teach, **** it. Lead. Coach. Motivate. Inspire. Give your students the best that you have to offer every. single. day. Remember: The goal is a lifetime of excellence, not a day or two here and there. A lifetime. Begin, then, with raised expectations -- of yourself and of your students.

 

 

Thank you for posting this. I really needed to hear it today. :D

[-M-]

Thank you for posting this. I really needed to hear it today. :D

 

You're welcome. To be clear, the bit you've pulled out is my own, not Collins'. (*wry grin*)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

My thoughts are that I need a caffeine drip and mega doses of vitamins to keep up with her. ;) ........

 

LOL

 

....Here's a challenge: This year, refuse to lower your expectations. Instead, raise them. And then exceed them. Enough of the whining and complaining and self-indulgence. Teach, **** it. Lead. Coach. Motivate. Inspire. Give your students the best that you have to offer every. single. day. Remember: The goal is a lifetime of excellence, not a day or two here and there. A lifetime. Begin, then, with raised expectations -- of yourself and of your students.

 

Reminds me of Aristotle.

“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.â€

 

 

Thanks to both of you for posting. I look forward to reading her work.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

You're welcome. To be clear, the bit you've pulled out is my own, not Collins'. (*wry grin*)

 

OK, so where's your book?

:lurk5:

[justamouse]

LOL

 

 

 

Reminds me of Aristotle.

“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.â€

 

 

Exactly.

[ereks mom]

I completely understand. We do run a fairly "rigorous' homeschool here (I know people define that term differently) and we are definitely different than almost every other homeschooler around us. It's not that they intentionally are NOT rigorous--it's just that most do not place the same emphasis on academics and learning above ALL else. There's always "something" that distracts them from schoolwork. In our school, barring severe illness, we learn. Whether that means using curricula, reading books, discussions, science experiments, what have you--we're learning.

 

I will post more on this later, but school has begun :tongue_smilie:

 

:iagree: You expressed my sentiments exactly.

[angela in ohio]

:lurk5: waiting for the S/O thread that generally comes along about now... :lol:

 

Anyway... I am also pretty much alone (not totally, thankfully :D) among HSers irl. I get you. Sure, I don't really care if I go it alone, but it would be nice to have some company on the road. I won't even go into how this board does or doesn't fit into that, because it would break board rules. ;)

 

And if I'm not meeting someone because their rigor means staying home only, we probably wouldn't have much in common anyway. To us, it includes going and doing (clubs, competitions, teams, classes, events, museum programs, etc.) I meet some similarly-minded private school parents at these things, and I tend to have more to talk to with them than with the average homeschooler. For example, I had a lovely time chatting with the parents at the MathCounts competition today; they don't homeschool, but they get me. :D

[Ester Maria]

In all honesty, I do not understand the whole "I care not what others are doing" mentality.

 

I care, because their children are going to compete with my children in a few short years for university entrances, job positions, internships, what have you. I want to know what they are doing, because ignoring it and pretending that we live in a non-competitive world will not make it go away... it will only set my children for a rude awakening if they figure out how far "behind" they are of a world class education. It does not help if you have friends and family who send to international and boarding schools AND supplement the particular areas in which children excel, and you see that the level of "rigor", as you call it - which gets bashed even on these boards - is actually the default, standard expectation in many circles for all children capable of it. I see no moral fault in actively attempting to provide the best educational leg-up in the world that we can for our children, nor in genuinely finding that the more educated they are, the better it is for them even if no material compensations in real world are included.

 

Education is all they will ever truly have. Screw inherited wealth, historically it takes very little for some regime to rise to mess you up even if you believed you were "totally safe". Screw beauty and investing into body, I am not raising children with a "we will marry them off well" mentality which I positively loathe, and these things are a subject to much quicker disintegration and ruin than mind. A mind is its own category, the only thing truly worth investing into. Nobody can take your knowledge and your culture away from you. If we have children strong in these two areas, we have accomplished our goal, because those are the qualities they need to create, to get by, to succeed, to restart their lives from zero if necessary. You are either kidding yourself if you think otherwise, of you are (un)lucky enough not to have a family memory of just how fragile all things but knowledge and culture are. What I am to invest time, effort, and money into, if not those two? What I am to emphasize as important things, if not moral firmness, their culture, and what they have inside their head? All of which boil down to education. A good education. An education with the context for it, an education which transmits culture. Anything other than that I would consider cultural depravity. Anything other than that would be like spitting in the face of the generations on whose sacrifices my education was built and the culture I inherited perserved amongst the barbarisms of centuries which, as all human centuries, were principally about power plays and destruction. Anything other than teaching the good things that have remained, the art that was created in midst of all that misery, anything other than giving an excellent education to the best of my and children's capacities would be a national betrayal, a personal family betrayal, a negation of one entire tradition of learning behind us.

 

You do not regress in life. Every generation must progress. Every generation must engage in that dialogue of generations anew and build their own culture on a strong foundation. An education is not a "coincidence" that is somehow to "happen". Look up the root of the verb culture and what grammatical form it stems from. That is what it is about.

 

It honestly completely blows my mind that not everyone thinks like that. It is one of those great mysteries of the universe that I cannot seem to even remotely grasp. I cannot grasp a mentality in which you do not want more, better, better in every generation, and in which you do not particularly care, and I cannot grasp not having a culture you wish to transmit, letting your child's education be decided on by the trivialities of case and what happens to be the pedagogical fad of the moment.

Rigor and excellence not look the same in all places, but it is always about high standards in relation to what/who is being discussed. If people do not practice it, that is fine and that is their right, but the level of anti-intellectualism and lobbying for intellectual mediocrity that I can often read (thankfully, much less so on sites like this than in the general media) is stunning. I know from the experience of previous generations that the educated were always a minority, but it seems to me that the scorn towards learning as we know it today is a relatively new phenomenon and seems to have crept into many people who are just on the verge - enough to have scratched some surfaces, but way too little to have understood much. So they scorn. Because they cannot understand. And because they do not want anyone else to be excellent if they themselves are not. I have found it extremely difficult and overwhelming to attempt to discuss education with this type of person, so I do the bean dip thing. Thankfully, these boards are pretty sane.

If I am reading you correctly, though, I know exactly what is the type of person you have in mind, I know them IRL. Run away from those in big leaps. Talk about these issues with people who will lift you higher rather than drag you down. Keep your children, in their formative years, as away from those attitudes as you would keep them away from morally very questionable choices. Surround them with people and ideas who will lift them higher, to the maximum extent of your possibility. Do not cultivate mediocrity. It will grow all around you, but you do not have to cultivate it in your little corner of the world where you live with your family.

[Colleen in NS]

Teach, **** it. Lead. Coach. Motivate. Inspire.

 

Thank you. Action verbs in the imperative, I see. You've given me some things to think about.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[-M-]

Thank you. Action verbs in the imperative, I see. You've given me some things to think about.

 

You're welcome. And, yes, in the imperative. Even after all of these years, *I* still appreciate the note-to-self.

[MSNative]

In all honesty, I do not understand the whole "I care not what others are doing" mentality.

 

I care, because their children are going to compete with my children in a few short years for university entrances, job positions, internships, what have you. I want to know what they are doing, because ignoring it and pretending that we live in a non-competitive world will not make it go away... it will only set my children for a rude awakening if they figure out how far "behind" they are of a world class education. It does not help if you have friends and family who send to international and boarding schools AND supplement the particular areas in which children excel, and you see that the level of "rigor", as you call it - which gets bashed even on these boards - is actually the default, standard expectation in many circles for all children capable of it. I see no moral fault in actively attempting to provide the best educational leg-up in the world that we can for our children, nor in genuinely finding that the more educated they are, the better it is for them even if no material compensations in real world are included.

 

Education is all they will ever truly have. Screw inherited wealth, historically it takes very little for some regime to rise to mess you up even if you believed you were "totally safe". Screw beauty and investing into body, I am not raising children with a "we will marry them off well" mentality which I positively loathe, and these things are a subject to much quicker disintegration and ruin than mind. A mind is its own category, the only thing truly worth investing into. Nobody can take your knowledge and your culture away from you. If we have children strong in these two areas, we have accomplished our goal, because those are the qualities they need to create, to get by, to succeed, to restart their lives from zero if necessary. You are either kidding yourself if you think otherwise, of you are (un)lucky enough not to have a family memory of just how fragile all things but knowledge and culture are. What I am to invest time, effort, and money into, if not those two? What I am to emphasize as important things, if not moral firmness, their culture, and what they have inside their head? All of which boil down to education. A good education. An education with the context for it, an education which transmits culture. Anything other than that I would consider cultural depravity. Anything other than that would be like spitting in the face of the generations on whose sacrifices my education was built and the culture I inherited perserved amongst the barbarisms of centuries which, as all human centuries, were principally about power plays and destruction. Anything other than teaching the good things that have remained, the art that was created in midst of all that misery, anything other than giving an excellent education to the best of my and children's capacities would be a national betrayal, a personal family betrayal, a negation of one entire tradition of learning behind us.

 

You do not regress in life. Every generation must progress. Every generation must engage in that dialogue of generations anew and build their own culture on a strong foundation. An education is not a "coincidence" that is somehow to "happen". Look up the root of the verb culture and what grammatical form it stems from. That is what it is about.

 

It honestly completely blows my mind that not everyone thinks like that. It is one of those great mysteries of the universe that I cannot seem to even remotely grasp. I cannot grasp a mentality in which you do not want more, better, better in every generation, and in which you do not particularly care, and I cannot grasp not having a culture you wish to transmit, letting your child's education be decided on by the trivialities of case and what happens to be the pedagogical fad of the moment.

Rigor and excellence not look the same in all places, but it is always about high standards in relation to what/who is being discussed. If people do not practice it, that is fine and that is their right, but the level of anti-intellectualism and lobbying for intellectual mediocrity that I can often read (thankfully, much less so on sites like this than in the general media) is stunning. I know from the experience of previous generations that the educated were always a minority, but it seems to me that the scorn towards learning as we know it today is a relatively new phenomenon and seems to have crept into many people who are just on the verge - enough to have scratched some surfaces, but way too little to have understood much. So they scorn. Because they cannot understand. And because they do not want anyone else to be excellent if they themselves are not. I have found it extremely difficult and overwhelming to attempt to discuss education with this type of person, so I do the bean dip thing. Thankfully, these boards are pretty sane.

If I am reading you correctly, though, I know exactly what is the type of person you have in mind, I know them IRL. Run away from those in big leaps. Talk about these issues with people who will lift you higher rather than drag you down. Keep your children, in their formative years, as away from those attitudes as you would keep them away from morally very questionable choices. Surround them with people and ideas who will lift them higher, to the maximum extent of your possibility. Do not cultivate mediocrity. It will grow all around you, but you do not have to cultivate it in your little corner of the world where you live with your family.

 

:iagree: Can't add to what you said at all.

[LMD]

Mental Multivitamin and Ester Maria - you are amazing! Thankyou for posting.

[StartingOver]

Here's a challenge: This year, refuse to lower your expectations. Instead, raise them. And then exceed them. Enough of the whining and complaining and self-indulgence. Teach, **** it. Lead. Coach. Motivate. Inspire. Give your students the best that you have to offer every. single. day. Remember: The goal is a lifetime of excellence, not a day or two here and there. A lifetime. Begin, then, with raised expectations -- of yourself and of your students.

 

May I quote you? This is just perfect !

[FaithManor]

In all honesty, I do not understand the whole "I care not what others are doing" mentality.

 

I care, because their children are going to compete with my children in a few short years for university entrances, job positions, internships, what have you. I want to know what they are doing, because ignoring it and pretending that we live in a non-competitive world will not make it go away... it will only set my children for a rude awakening if they figure out how far "behind" they are of a world class education. It does not help if you have friends and family who send to international and boarding schools AND supplement the particular areas in which children excel, and you see that the level of "rigor", as you call it - which gets bashed even on these boards - is actually the default, standard expectation in many circles for all children capable of it. I see no moral fault in actively attempting to provide the best educational leg-up in the world that we can for our children, nor in genuinely finding that the more educated they are, the better it is for them even if no material compensations in real world are included.

 

Education is all they will ever truly have. Screw inherited wealth, historically it takes very little for some regime to rise to mess you up even if you believed you were "totally safe". Screw beauty and investing into body, I am not raising children with a "we will marry them off well" mentality which I positively loathe, and these things are a subject to much quicker disintegration and ruin than mind. A mind is its own category, the only thing truly worth investing into. Nobody can take your knowledge and your culture away from you. If we have children strong in these two areas, we have accomplished our goal, because those are the qualities they need to create, to get by, to succeed, to restart their lives from zero if necessary. You are either kidding yourself if you think otherwise, of you are (un)lucky enough not to have a family memory of just how fragile all things but knowledge and culture are. What I am to invest time, effort, and money into, if not those two? What I am to emphasize as important things, if not moral firmness, their culture, and what they have inside their head? All of which boil down to education. A good education. An education with the context for it, an education which transmits culture. Anything other than that I would consider cultural depravity. Anything other than that would be like spitting in the face of the generations on whose sacrifices my education was built and the culture I inherited perserved amongst the barbarisms of centuries which, as all human centuries, were principally about power plays and destruction. Anything other than teaching the good things that have remained, the art that was created in midst of all that misery, anything other than giving an excellent education to the best of my and children's capacities would be a national betrayal, a personal family betrayal, a negation of one entire tradition of learning behind us.

 

You do not regress in life. Every generation must progress. Every generation must engage in that dialogue of generations anew and build their own culture on a strong foundation. An education is not a "coincidence" that is somehow to "happen". Look up the root of the verb culture and what grammatical form it stems from. That is what it is about.

 

It honestly completely blows my mind that not everyone thinks like that. It is one of those great mysteries of the universe that I cannot seem to even remotely grasp. I cannot grasp a mentality in which you do not want more, better, better in every generation, and in which you do not particularly care, and I cannot grasp not having a culture you wish to transmit, letting your child's education be decided on by the trivialities of case and what happens to be the pedagogical fad of the moment.

Rigor and excellence not look the same in all places, but it is always about high standards in relation to what/who is being discussed. If people do not practice it, that is fine and that is their right, but the level of anti-intellectualism and lobbying for intellectual mediocrity that I can often read (thankfully, much less so on sites like this than in the general media) is stunning. I know from the experience of previous generations that the educated were always a minority, but it seems to me that the scorn towards learning as we know it today is a relatively new phenomenon and seems to have crept into many people who are just on the verge - enough to have scratched some surfaces, but way too little to have understood much. So they scorn. Because they cannot understand. And because they do not want anyone else to be excellent if they themselves are not. I have found it extremely difficult and overwhelming to attempt to discuss education with this type of person, so I do the bean dip thing. Thankfully, these boards are pretty sane.

If I am reading you correctly, though, I know exactly what is the type of person you have in mind, I know them IRL. Run away from those in big leaps. Talk about these issues with people who will lift you higher rather than drag you down. Keep your children, in their formative years, as away from those attitudes as you would keep them away from morally very questionable choices. Surround them with people and ideas who will lift them higher, to the maximum extent of your possibility. Do not cultivate mediocrity. It will grow all around you, but you do not have to cultivate it in your little corner of the world where you live with your family.

 

 

All I can say is :iagree:.

 

Faith

[Soror]

Can I participate in this thread directly after posting to my own thread about unschooling :)

 

I always find these threads interesting and like a pp I have had to remove myself from comparing others. It was not a helpful thing to me as I had a hard time stepping back and looking at what was applicable to us personally. I do however expect ds to work fully to his potential and stay focused while we are working on anything. That means he is ahead in Math and on level with Reading and a bit behind in Writing.

 

We don't do multiple programs for any subject though and we aren't studying Latin(yet). I do have high goals as to the learning experience I want to create and the level of involvement I want from the kids. I don't guess I feel I fit in anywhere quite right. We are going more into unschooling next year for our content subjects as I feel that it would be the best use of our time, most beneficial(personally and educationally) and age appropriate. I guess I believe in rigor but I don't necessarily like the path that is often touted as the "way" to get there and perhaps my definition just doesn't fit in there anyway.

 

I am very interested to read some of Collins' books now as I've heard her name many times but never have researched into her much. It seems to be something that I tend to lack, heart, is her main focus. Thanks so much to pp's for the quotes it is quite inspirational and a lot to live up to as well. It is quite apt as well as I've been strongly thinking as of late what our original goals for hs'ing and trying to decide if our current path is the optimum path to reach them. Thus the reason we are headed towards more unschooling and a lot more family projects. A lot more teamwork. A lot more of discovering together. Researching together. Finding things for the kids to be responsible for and then expecting and waiting for it to happen, all the while encouraging and guiding it.

[laundrycrisis]

Here's a challenge: This year, refuse to lower your expectations. Instead, raise them. And then exceed them. Enough of the whining and complaining and self-indulgence. Teach, **** it. Lead. Coach. Motivate. Inspire. Give your students the best that you have to offer every. single. day. Remember: The goal is a lifetime of excellence, not a day or two here and there. A lifetime. Begin, then, with raised expectations -- of yourself and of your students.

 

:hurray: Thank you !

 

I love all these thoughts on excellence, and on why education really does matter. I think I will also be reading some of Marva Collins' books.

Edited February 1, 2012 by laundrycrisis

[AmericanMom]

In all honesty, I do not understand the whole "I care not what others are doing" mentality.

 

I care, because their children are going to compete with my children in a few short years for university entrances, job positions, internships, what have you. I want to know what they are doing, because ignoring it and pretending that we live in a non-competitive world will not make it go away... it will only set my children for a rude awakening if they figure out how far "behind" they are of a world class education. It does not help if you have friends and family who send to international and boarding schools AND supplement the particular areas in which children excel, and you see that the level of "rigor", as you call it - which gets bashed even on these boards - is actually the default, standard expectation in many circles for all children capable of it. I see no moral fault in actively attempting to provide the best educational leg-up in the world that we can for our children, nor in genuinely finding that the more educated they are, the better it is for them even if no material compensations in real world are included.

 

Education is all they will ever truly have. Screw inherited wealth, historically it takes very little for some regime to rise to mess you up even if you believed you were "totally safe". Screw beauty and investing into body, I am not raising children with a "we will marry them off well" mentality which I positively loathe, and these things are a subject to much quicker disintegration and ruin than mind. A mind is its own category, the only thing truly worth investing into. Nobody can take your knowledge and your culture away from you. If we have children strong in these two areas, we have accomplished our goal, because those are the qualities they need to create, to get by, to succeed, to restart their lives from zero if necessary. You are either kidding yourself if you think otherwise, of you are (un)lucky enough not to have a family memory of just how fragile all things but knowledge and culture are. What I am to invest time, effort, and money into, if not those two? What I am to emphasize as important things, if not moral firmness, their culture, and what they have inside their head? All of which boil down to education. A good education. An education with the context for it, an education which transmits culture. Anything other than that I would consider cultural depravity. Anything other than that would be like spitting in the face of the generations on whose sacrifices my education was built and the culture I inherited perserved amongst the barbarisms of centuries which, as all human centuries, were principally about power plays and destruction. Anything other than teaching the good things that have remained, the art that was created in midst of all that misery, anything other than giving an excellent education to the best of my and children's capacities would be a national betrayal, a personal family betrayal, a negation of one entire tradition of learning behind us.

 

You do not regress in life. Every generation must progress. Every generation must engage in that dialogue of generations anew and build their own culture on a strong foundation. An education is not a "coincidence" that is somehow to "happen". Look up the root of the verb culture and what grammatical form it stems from. That is what it is about.

 

It honestly completely blows my mind that not everyone thinks like that. It is one of those great mysteries of the universe that I cannot seem to even remotely grasp. I cannot grasp a mentality in which you do not want more, better, better in every generation, and in which you do not particularly care, and I cannot grasp not having a culture you wish to transmit, letting your child's education be decided on by the trivialities of case and what happens to be the pedagogical fad of the moment.

Rigor and excellence not look the same in all places, but it is always about high standards in relation to what/who is being discussed. If people do not practice it, that is fine and that is their right, but the level of anti-intellectualism and lobbying for intellectual mediocrity that I can often read (thankfully, much less so on sites like this than in the general media) is stunning. I know from the experience of previous generations that the educated were always a minority, but it seems to me that the scorn towards learning as we know it today is a relatively new phenomenon and seems to have crept into many people who are just on the verge - enough to have scratched some surfaces, but way too little to have understood much. So they scorn. Because they cannot understand. And because they do not want anyone else to be excellent if they themselves are not. I have found it extremely difficult and overwhelming to attempt to discuss education with this type of person, so I do the bean dip thing. Thankfully, these boards are pretty sane.

If I am reading you correctly, though, I know exactly what is the type of person you have in mind, I know them IRL. Run away from those in big leaps. Talk about these issues with people who will lift you higher rather than drag you down. Keep your children, in their formative years, as away from those attitudes as you would keep them away from morally very questionable choices. Surround them with people and ideas who will lift them higher, to the maximum extent of your possibility. Do not cultivate mediocrity. It will grow all around you, but you do not have to cultivate it in your little corner of the world where you live with your family.

 

Thank you. I am printing this out to read on mornings when I am tired, everyone is in a bad mood, and I'm struggling to get started...

[creekland]

Our family has been swimming upstream in favor of academic excellence for years. It is tough, and I appreciate this board so I know others out there care and are doing something about it.

 

Otherwise, :iagree: with the posts some others have eloquently stated. I can't comprehend those who don't care. I see and interact with them daily while trying to keep my boys focused on things (future rewards from education - not necessarily monetary) the others just don't (or can't) see. So far, my boys have followed my path. I'm really, really glad.

[justamouse]

I'm in a total Ester Maria swoon. She has donned the flame suit and spoke it.

Edited February 2, 2012 by justamouse

[Karen in CO]

.....But by stating that my son pronounced Moby Dick to be one of the best books he has ever read am I condemning those homeschoolers who choose not to read Melville? I don't think so and yet somehow insecurities rear their ugly heads.

 

.

 

Moby Dick is the best book I've ever read. :D Even grownups who haven't read it feel insecure in Moby Dick discussions.

 

I stay out of rigor threads because I am tempted to just jump in and stir up the bees because it is easy.

[Crimson Wife]

Moby Dick is the best book I've ever read. :D Even grownups who haven't read it feel insecure in Moby Dick discussions.

 

Well, someone could enjoy similarly challenging books and still not personally care for Moby Dick. I like to read and will happily discuss other literary classics with you, but I never could get into that particular novel. Not my cuppa ;)

[Karen in CO]

Well, someone could enjoy similarly challenging books and still not personally care for Moby Dick. I like to read and will happily discuss other literary classics with you, but I never could get into that particular novel. Not my cuppa ;)

 

True - I never actually read it until after I was 40. I was also on a ferry when I started then finished on a beach. I could have never finished it in high school. I think kids need some choice in which challenging books to tackle. I was always provided a list of books to choose from instead of given a specific book to read. If I'd been forced to read Moby Dick in highschool instead of being allowed to choose Beowulf or Tale of Two Cities, I might have never grown to love it. My ds hasn't read it yet, but heopefully he will so we can discuss it. I love talking to him about books.

 

What rigorous book should we discuss?

Edited February 2, 2012 by Karen in CO

[WTMCassandra]

Thank you, Ester Maria. Very inspirational! I agree wholeheartedly. When I said "keep my head down," it was more in the guise of doing what I know I should be doing, regardless of what is going on around me (i.e., lack of rigor). You are right that we do need to know what others are doing to a certain extent (i.e., those who are possibly more rigorous) so I can tell if I need to step it up.

[angela in ohio]

Thank you, Ester Maria. Very inspirational! I agree wholeheartedly. When I said "keep my head down," it was more in the guise of doing what I know I should be doing, regardless of what is going on around me (i.e., lack of rigor). You are right that we do need to know what others are doing to a certain extent (i.e., those who are possibly more rigorous) so I can tell if I need to step it up.

 

Ditto. I know very well what those "above me" are doing and that inspires me and keeps me moving in the right direction. I also know what the competition is doing. But as far as most other homeschoolers, I don't care about the comments they make or the pressure they apply, and what they do certainly doesn't affect the way I educate dc.

[ErinE]

I'm in a total Ester Maria swoon. She has donned the flame suit and spoken it.

 

Such an evocative description. A big round of applause to Ester Maria. I expect my kids to perform to the best of their ability.

[Colleen in NS]

Teach, **** it. Lead. Coach. Motivate. Inspire.

 

Action verbs in the imperative, I see.

 

yes, in the imperative.

 

An education is not a "coincidence" that is somehow to "happen". so, make it happen?

 

Look up the root of the verb culture and what grammatical form it stems from.

 

cultura, ae - "cultivation (ex.: of the mind)" - noun. But, for the sake of this post, I can turn it back into EM's verb and say, "so, culture the minds of your kids"?

 

...I cannot grasp not having a culture you wish to transmit, letting your child's education be decided on by the trivialities of case and what happens to be the pedagogical fad of the moment. so, transmit your culture/education? And decide how your child's education will be conducted?

 

...If people do not practice it, ...so, practice it?

 

Talk about these issues with people who will lift you higher rather than drag you down. Keep your children, in their formative years, as away from those attitudes as you would keep them away from morally very questionable choices. Surround them with people and ideas who will lift them higher, to the maximum extent of your possibility. Do not cultivate mediocrity. so, do cultivate excellence? ...

 

I think you two are talking about the same idea. Look at all the imperative action verbs you both used while talking about education. (I positively stated and bolded some verbs, in red, that were negated. I bolded the other imperative verbs that were black and positively stated)

 

MMV's post that I quoted above has really gotten me thinking (which is why I deleted my other post, which really was coming from past insecurities about teaching my kids the way I thought they should be taught). Imperative verbs. I read the other day that the word educate comes from two Latin words meaning "lead/guide" and "out of," and that educate literally means to lead/guide out of ignorance. I never thought about that before. So, to do that means that I as the teacher/parent need to "imperative action verb" my kids. I can't sit around waiting for education to happen to them, because it won't. They may learn things as they go about their childhood/teen lives, but it's my job (or the job of mentors/tutors/teachers/professors we choose to teach various subjects) to "imperative action verb" them, or educate them (in areas I deem important), until they know how to "educate/imperative action verb themselves." I like this idea, and I like this job. It's not draconian; it's fascinating to me to think of it this way. To look at my kids, see what they need, and help them fulfill those needs.

 

As a little sideline - I think when MMV said she didn't care about what others around her were doing, all she meant was she didn't let those who had lower standards than she has influence her or deter her. Personally, I took courage from my understanding of her intent. As I also took courage from EM's usual great explanations about education and culture.

 

Many thanks to the both of you for leading *me* today to a bit of a deeper understanding.

 

:hurray: Thank you !

 

I love all these thoughts on excellence, and on why education really does matter. I think I will also be reading some of Marva Collins' books.

 

I read Marva Collins' Way loooonnngggg before I ever thought of homeschooling, because it was sitting on my teacher-mother's bookshelf. It was very interesting.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[Bang!Zoom!]

At lunch today; I called up EM's post and had a wonderful discussion with my dd about the ideas within.

 

An hour after our last class, I called it up again and shared it with a good friend of mine.

 

I'd skipped reading with my friend the post where someone recommend I print out MMV quotes (I really am going to make bookmarks of them) - and she became really excited and said, "You especially need to print those out and carry them around..."

 

I was giggling. That's three for three unprompted.:lol:

 

You ladies are all great!

[Audrey]

Five years ago next month, I participated in a WTM thread about rigor --more specifically, the lack thereof -- among the homeschooling "community." My response included the following admission:

There's a word or two, probably not terribly kind, for people like me, but I'll risk hearing the criticism again. Here goes: One of the reasons I homeschool is that I'm not terribly interested in what everyone else is doing -- how woefully underprepared Suzy Homeschool's kids are, how inarticulate Peggy Publicschool's kids are, etc.

 

Really. Not. Interested.

Conversely, I'm really. not. interested. in comparative rigor, either. There comes a point when you simply have neither the time nor inclination to defend your choices, be they (seemingly) more or less rigorous than someone else's. You just do what you need to do.

 

(I think Audrey and TrueBlue more civilly expressed my own reasons for avoiding such threads.)

___________________________

 

If you seek inspiration, consider the wonderful Marva Collins:

Many of us can be excellent for a day, but we find a lifetime of excellence to be just a bit difficult.

Good teachers leave their egos and problems at the door each morning.

They become so immersed in the children they teach that they forget time, problems, who they are, or what they can't do. They believe that they exist for their students. They hear with their hearts, they see with their souls, and they teach with their conscience.

 

 

I think this (the bolded) is an excellent point to remember. The rigour threads seem to be more about the teacher -- what the teacher is requiring -- than about what the students need.

 

I read many of those threads (and I well remember the one you quoted from MMV) when I was a much newer homeschooler. They were not helpful for me. They gave me nothing but laundry lists (no pun intended) of requirements. I didn't need that. I already bought WTM. The lists are there. The difference between reading WTM and reading one of those threads, though, is that the book was about what students need. The lists were just suggestions, not mandates.

 

I had an unfortunate, but interesting experience with my own child that brought me to the shocking conclusion that homeschooling had nothing to do. at. all. with what *I* wanted. Since then, I have learned to give up my own ego in the matter and do instead what my student needs me to do, giving him the curricula he needs whether it is what I would want to use or not, giving him the time he needs to complete academics and the time he needs to be properly prepared for tackling academics.

 

I am a purely academic homeschooler. There is no doubt about that. But, I am not interested in comparing my homeschool to anyone else's. It would be a futile exercise, as far as I am concerned.

[Mommyfaithe]

It's possible that many of you don't meet the more rigorous hs'ers irl because they are home doing school with their kids. I never did much with the hs groups, even though I was a member for the simple reason that we had SO much material to cover that I just really had to stay home and do it.

 

(NOT saying that everyone should stay home all the time and do nothing but school. Just that there could be some like me who DID do this - out of necessity, mostly. Older kids and all ...)

 

:iagree::iagree:

I did not get out of the house much over the past 10 years. I have had a one year break from high school...and now....back I go into the saddle....yeeeehaw!

Faithe

[justamouse]

I think this (the bolded) is an excellent point to remember. The rigour threads seem to be more about the teacher -- what the teacher is requiring -- than about what the students need.

 

I think you need to read the quote within the context of her work.

 

You want to talk about requirements? She had requirements. Her requirements make me want to hang my head in shame. AND, she had learning disabled children that she made excel with all of those requirements.

 

Her co workers hated her for how she showed them up. Teachers still put her down because they can't get out of their kids what she can get out of hers.

 

That's where the application of EM's post comes in.

[Mommyfaithe]

I think this (the bolded) is an excellent point to remember. The rigour threads seem to be more about the teacher -- what the teacher is requiring -- than about what the students need.

 

I read many of those threads (and I well remember the one you quoted from MMV) when I was a much newer homeschooler. They were not helpful for me. They gave me nothing but laundry lists (no pun intended) of requirements. I didn't need that. I already bought WTM. The lists are there. The difference between reading WTM and reading one of those threads, though, is that the book was about what students need. The lists were just suggestions, not mandates.

 

I had an unfortunate, but interesting experience with my own child that brought me to the shocking conclusion that homeschooling had nothing to do. at. all. with what *I* wanted. Since then, I have learned to give up my own ego in the matter and do instead what my student needs me to do, giving him the curricula he needs whether it is what I would want to use or not, giving him the time he needs to complete academics and the time he needs to be properly prepared for tackling academics.

 

I am a purely academic homeschooler. There is no doubt about that. But, I am not interested in comparing my homeschool to anyone else's. It would be a futile exercise, as far as I am concerned.

 

Yes!! Yes!! Yes!!! Not into futile exercises.....

[Audrey]

I think you need to read the quote within the context of her work.

 

You want to talk about requirements? She had requirements. Her requirements make me want to hang my head in shame. AND, she had learning disabled children that she made excel with all of those requirements.

 

Her co workers hated her for how she showed them up. Teachers still put her down because they can't get out of their kids what she can get out of hers.

 

That's where the application of EM's post comes in.

 

No. I've read the book from whence that quote comes. I well understand Collins. . I don't believe for one minute that Collins' requirements were all about her. They were about what the student needed to excel. Her students had profound needs. Hence, her profound list of requirements. That is where the ego must go. That is what I am saying.

 

It is easy to get wrapped up in your own list of requirements and think they are for the student, but until you examine your own motives, put away your own ego, you cannot be sure those requirements are really about what the students truly need.

 

And, you do have to work at it. Every day. The jealous teachers just couldn't/wouldn't put in that much work. Every day.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Audrey

[Plucky]

No. I've read the book from whence that quote comes. I well understand Collins. . I don't believe for one minute that Collins' requirements were all about her. They were about what the student needed to excel. Her students had profound needs. Hence, her profound list of requirements. That is where the ego must go. That is what I am saying.

 

It is easy to get wrapped up in your own list of requirements and think they are for the student, but until you examine your own motives, put away your own ego, you cannot be sure those requirements are really about what the students truly need.

 

And, you do have to work at it. Every day. The jealous teachers just couldn't/wouldn't put in that much work. Every day.

 

I agree. Also, I don't think a lot of you are understanding that not comparing constantly is a good thing for some of us. Don't worry at all about my kids' academic lives. Oldest was just offered Honors College at one of the universities that accepted him, and oldest dd is in mostly honor's classes at private school.

 

I know for me when I first started homeschooling I felt there must be some formula for being the perfect homeschool mom. I was disappointed because there isn't one person I could emulate, and no curriculum, method, or style that I could adhere to completely and use as the gospel. I am not trying to fit my kids into a style or curriculum, but fitting the style and curriculum to them and myself.

 

I wouldn't have made it past a few years if I was comparing myself to others. I need the freedom to reach beyond or instead of what anyone else is doing. My kids are happy and thriving. They all have different gifts, and are all different learners. I like to treat them that way.

[Bang!Zoom!]

It's not uncommon for me to preen something precious & unexpected from these discussions; and I do want to stop and say thank you to each and every one of the respondents on this for their thoughts, as well as the acceptance being demonstrated as we converse and share ideas...so thank you all, now..to something I want to mention (and this is highly individualized, no one here probably shares the same background as myself, but...at risk of getting personal for a change)

 

I realized this afternoon as I read to my dd that some of these concepts were very new to her. I'd reached the point in conversation where I was asking her if she really understood anything at all about the generations which came before her and their opportunities and sacrifices made in their lives that make us as individuals who we are today.

 

She was quite clueless; but it is so deeply internalized for me I found myself getting a "sit-down" from my now long-gone ancestors and parents that deal directly with generational progression and the paralleled aspects or advances we enjoy today with learning.

 

I'm completely embarrassed, voices from the past chastise me, and I have a responsibility and duty to go deeper with it (age-appropriately of course).

 

I'm realizing that (and to a degree I've not felt before) - who I am as a teacher cannot be completely separated from the mother half of me no matter what I'd like to think. They are two halves of the whole of me.

 

When EM was speaking about generational conquest/defeat, I was explaining to my dd that the people she came from did indeed have great sacrifice. My mother, the first literate person of her family lineage. I am only second generation in that regard.

 

How my mother was educated was cruel, inhuman and at times violent. Stories of others like her, and her original place of education can be viewed here: (if you are at "all" feeling emotional/hormonal, please skip, it's horrifying)

 

http://turtletalk.wordpress.com/2007/10/01/holy-childhood-oral-histories/

 

My father, otoh, entered the Armed Forces under-age to escape poverty and remained there for over forty years. He was, famously known in a tri-county area as "the most decorated" service member. When we'd arrive on a base somewhere, he was treated with a reverence and respect I can't quite explain; it was a source of both pride and confusion for me. It would take me until after his death to really appreciate what he'd accomplished with his life.

 

So there, the fierce fire of the elements I came from and lived with everyday; understanding that we were normal as it gets (but in reality, not). Those were, the rules and expectations of my parents-day in and day out, all I knew.

 

Both of them coming from extreme backgrounds of discipline, rules...and those pressures (for lack of a better word) were ingrained into me. I am who I am today because of those earlier influences, none of my views were "self-made"- or pulled from some educational theory book....they are (my approaches, thoughts, beliefs and practices) - reflections from their lives & experiences.

 

I really need to stop apologizing for myself; considering myself as some edge-of-the-herd mutant, and instead pay my respects for the incredible legacy of their lives and survival.

 

I really need to add to the start of my day a brief recounting of my blessings and awe, pay them tribute in prayer and honor their lives as I do the best I can each and every moment of the day.

 

That is all.

[-M-]

I think this (the bolded) is an excellent point to remember. The rigour threads seem to be more about the teacher -- what the teacher is requiring -- than about what the students need.

 

Is there an emoticon for "grateful and appreciative nod"?

[-M-]

Also, I don't think a lot of you are understanding that not comparing constantly is a good thing for some of us.

 

I'd need the "grateful and appreciative nod" emoticon here, as well. (*wry grin*)

[-M-]

As a little sideline - I think when MMV said she didn't care about what others around her were doing, all she meant was she didn't let those who had lower standards than she has influence her or deter her.

 

Again, I find myself in need of the "grateful and appreciative nod" emoticon.

[justamouse]

No. I've read the book from whence that quote comes. I well understand Collins. . I don't believe for one minute that Collins' requirements were all about her. They were about what the student needed to excel. Her students had profound needs. Hence, her profound list of requirements. That is where the ego must go. That is what I am saying.

 

It is easy to get wrapped up in your own list of requirements and think they are for the student, but until you examine your own motives, put away your own ego, you cannot be sure those requirements are really about what the students truly need.

 

And, you do have to work at it. Every day. The jealous teachers just couldn't/wouldn't put in that much work. Every day.

 

Ah, I totally agree. Do you think, though, that she would have required less of children without those needs? Her own children were in her classes. Or just making it out of the ghetto was need enough? Does a child of privilege need less of an education because of the opportunity they have?

 

I don't know that she would have expected less...perhaps even more? If that were possible, she is an amazing teacher.

Edited February 2, 2012 by justamouse
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