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Singapore Math, does it or doesn't it prepare for higher math?


jjcmehl
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A fellow home educating mom had this to share with me:

 

"I didn't like Singapore when I looked through it, but was also influenced by my fil, a professor. He says he (and other professors at the university he worked at) could pick out the kids taught with Singapore. He said they had trouble transitioning to college maths. He was dean, so it's not anecdotal. He had to go over grades with professors and students, so had facts to back it up. Singapore is the only program he specifically mentioned; he didn't seem to mind other ones as much."

 

We have used Singapore Math for 5 years. I see the beauty in the program, but I can see how transitioning to higher math programs could be a challenge. There is not enough explaination or drill/review in SM, in my opinion. I have my kids learn the SM approach and traditional approach, especially getting into the higher levels. I was wondering what others have experienced, specifically those of you who have used the SM for 4 plus years?

Edited by jjcmehl
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Huh... My oldest kid has used SM from the very beginning up through 4A. She actually transitioned into MM at the later levels (she'll finish MM next year). She's my best math student. She uses MM independently and I check her answers. In fact, alot of MM has been review for her (but a great review!). I'm actually going to slowly start Jacobs' Algebra with her next year. I just don't see where SM has handicapped her.

 

I do think MM has more problems to work (more review) and more explanation. I think they're both great programs. My 1st grader is almost finished with SM 1A. I'm just going to do the same thing I did with the oldest kid - switch to MM at the later levels.

 

Oh well. :confused:

 

How many kids out there really use Singapore Math for that lady's FIL to say that...? I mean, I never heard of it until we started homeschooling. I really don't think it's that common. :confused:

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I don't see how Singapore makes transitioning to higher maths a challenge.

I've been teaching math at the cc since 96. I pointed out to my son last week how some of the word problems he was doing from 4B HiG (Standards) are solving a system of two equations and how this will later generalize to more equations in more unknowns and leads to linear algebra.

 

I have seen other materials that I think will work for many kids and won't harm them, but I also have looked at some that I think are setting kids up for a world of hurt later with inaccurate analogies in the teaching videos.

 

I'm very pleased with Singapore and haven't seen any places where I foresee it causing problems (only slight exception is that I did cover up the pages with the trick of multiplication with 9s using hands; I want my son to have his times tables memorized and immediate and not be slowed down).

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My kids did not have any problems transitioning from Singapore to high school math.

 

:iagree:

 

Mine didn't either. In fact, I find the whole idea of SM not being adequate preparation for higher level math a bit goofy, considering all three of my older children are now succeeding in higher level math with no transition issues at all. If a child needs lots of review, then maybe Singapore is not the best program for them, but not every child needs lots of review. Any program can be inadequate, if it's not the best fit for that child.

 

And if I needed any further validation, my husband has a graduate degree in computer science engineering, and taught computer science at the UC. He thinks SM is just fine preparation for higher level math. :tongue_smilie:

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My friend with a masters in math who is also married to math professor at a prestigious university is hands down committed to Singapore as the best elementary program. She also made the comment that all her

"mathy" friends use it as after school supplementation.

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We have used Singapore Math for 5 years. I see the beauty in the program, but I can see how transitioning to higher math programs could be a challenge. There is not enough explaination or drill/review in SM, in my opinion.

 

We've done SM 2, 3, and 4. I don't think that lack of drill on math facts or basic calculations is a weakness in SM at all-- in fact a strength of it is that one can add as much drill as necessary for a student who needs it. I could see a student possibly being weak on calculation if only the textbook were used.

 

I certainly can't vouch for SM past the fourth grade level, and have little knowledge of it past sixth. However, I've seen so far that it offers unusual strength in conceptual areas, and lots of practice doing problems to stretch a student's capacity for thinking about math, especially word problems.

 

I tend not to use the HIG much, at least so far. I think that if one follows the full SM approach there's plenty of explanation. However, I also believe in giving a child plenty of different ways of thinking about math, so I think extra enrichment can be key no matter what you use for a curriculum.

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A fellow home educating mom had this to share with me:

 

"I didn't like Singapore when I looked through it, but was also influenced by my fil, a professor. He says he (and other professors at the university he worked at) could pick out the kids taught with Singapore. He said they had trouble transitioning to college maths. He was dean, so it's not anecdotal. Still anecdotal, because it's not a formal study. Doesn't really matter who is saying it He had to go over grades with professors and students, so had facts to back it up. Singapore is the only program he specifically mentioned; he didn't seem to mind other ones as much." Looking at grades, how is one able to know who used Singapore?

 

We have used Singapore Math for 5 years. I see the beauty in the program, but I can see how transitioning to higher math programs could be a challenge. There is not enough explaination or drill/review in SM, in my opinion. I have my kids learn the SM approach and traditional approach, especially getting into the higher levels. I was wondering what others have experienced, specifically those of you who have used the SM for 4 plus years?

 

Added some comments in blue. We have found Singapore to be an awesome base for transitioning into traditional high school math. Two of mine went from Primary Singapore into traditional honors algebra and geometry at a prep school.

 

Also, my oldest transitioned into Stanford's gifted program from Singapore and went on to finish high school with 6 college math classes.

 

My anecdotal evidence is it is good prep for higher math.

 

Of course, the reason many use it is it's excellent track record in other countries.

 

Also wanted to mention, it is not only homeschoolers who use Singapore math, but also many private schools use it.

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FWIW, I've heard negative comments about Saxon's ability to prep for college level work from an acquaintance who is an engineering professor. He said that the students he knows who used Saxon can only do rote plug-and-chug type problems and really struggle with applied problem-solving. He seemed relieved when I told him we were using Singapore.

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How would a college professor know what elementary math program his students used? Or was he referring to high school math, which is another matter entirely? I didn't exactly sit around chatting with my math professor back in the day about what I used in elementary school. I don't even actually know what it was.

 

I agree with the PPs who mentioned how few students the professor is likely to have encountered who were taught with Singapore, unless that's what the local school used.

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How would a college professor know what elementary math program his students used? Or was he referring to high school math, which is another matter entirely? I didn't exactly sit around chatting with my math professor back in the day about what I used in elementary school. I don't even actually know what it was.

 

 

 

:iagree:

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How interesting! My oldest is 10. We've used Singapore all the way so far and I'm impressed. Before having kids, I was a middle school/high school math teacher and I only wish all my students knew what it taught. I've actually learned a few new things about problems solving! I guess it all depends on the individual student, though.

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I too wonder how he would know what elementary math was used. It's possible that a local school uses it, but if the teachers are uneducated about math, I could see them turning out poor students. If a local school doesn't use it, I doubt he sees even a handful of Singapore students in a year.

 

I don't know of any schools around here that use Singapore. My son's private school used Saxon, and one of the biggest complaints about the school is weak math and science (coming from parents who don't know anything about math curriculum wars). I doubt they'd do any better with Singapore unless the teachers all went for training in the method.

 

Also, Singapore has plenty of drill if you use the EP or IP books.

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My guess is that he is confused about the name of the program to which he is referring. I have two kids currently in college who have used Singapore and they always scored high on the math on the ACT and SAT. In fact their scores in 8th grade were good enough for them to enter College Algebra based on the criteria of the state university. I, however, knew that would be inappropriate and they were too young to go anyways.

 

In addition, I would guess that they are not seeing a huge proportion of students who have used Singapore because it isn't the most popular math program out there. I think he probably sees a lot more students using traditional math programs like Saxon (used in public, private, and home schools).

 

If I were a betting woman, I would suggest that he is meaning Saxon. I have heard that complaint about Saxon (although many students do just fine with Saxon).

 

He's confused :D or perhaps your friend is confused on what program he mentioned.

Edited by CynthiaOK
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Maybe he was thinking Saxon. As far as who uses Singapore, I think that California is one State that does. :) Hope Singapore works, as my son is using it, and it's the way his brain naturally thinks :)

 

This is a good possibility, that he confused the S with Saxon. A friend of mind (who is familiar with neither program, but has heard of them) did that the other day.

 

As far as CA goes, I'd be surprised if a significant number of schools were using Singapore ten or so years ago, for many such students to have reached college and given this guy anywhere close to a reasonable sample. The kids who have been in college in recent years were in elementary school in the late 90s, the heyday of the Math Wars when fuzzy programs were quite the rage, so it's not shocking if he had a number of struggling students.

 

It might make more sense if he were talking about secondary math, but I don't think I've heard of a high school using Singapore in the US - at least, I've never seen it discussed here.

Edited by wapiti
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How would a college professor know what elementary math program his students used? Or was he referring to high school math, which is another matter entirely? I didn't exactly sit around chatting with my math professor back in the day about what I used in elementary school. I don't even actually know what it was.

 

I agree with the PPs who mentioned how few students the professor is likely to have encountered who were taught with Singapore, unless that's what the local school used.

 

That is what I thought too. How a college prof knows an elementary program and has a strong feeling like that?

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Addressing the second part (using SM for more than 4 years). I would agree that a person who only used the PM series (grades 1-6) might have trouble transitioning into a American style of math for high school. The problem is not the program, but rather the sequence. If one goes through the SM program through NEM/DM a student is easily prepared for the transition. If, however, one were to go through PM, then transition to an American text, one would need to use that American text for a while in order to get comfortable and to fill in the gaps (due to sequence, not lack of instruction).

 

Like I said above, my sons have had no trouble - one went through the NEM series then into college algebra as a high school junior, the other went through PM then Lials and went on to college algebra in his junior year. Oldest has had through Calculus 4 and Differential Equations and the next college aged son is now in Calculus 2 as a freshman. Both are scoring A's. So....was Singapore lacking? I don't think so. Or maybe it was a combination of program with my sons' inherent math talent along with my nagging teaching...

 

Surely the only curriculum names he sees (if he indeed does see them) are those used in the high school years. And surely the ACT/SAT scores should verify whether the student is ready for college level maths rather than a curriculum. So...does he find low scores, then call the student in and ask what curriculum he used? Somehow I cannot see a busy dean doing that...but maybe they have done a study...in which case, he would be wise to publish the results.

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Maybe he was thinking Saxon. As far as who uses Singapore, I think that California is one State that does. :) Hope Singapore works, as my son is using it, and it's the way his brain naturally thinks :)

The only school that I know of that uses SM is a charter school. The big, local districts use McGraw-Hill. Of course, that is just in my own little bubble.:D

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Maybe he was thinking Saxon. As far as who uses Singapore, I think that California is one State that does. :)

 

While Singapore Primary Math is on the state approved list, I don't know of a single district in my area that uses it. Most use either Every Day Mathematics :ack2: or Houghton-Mifflin.

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While Singapore Primary Math is on the state approved list, I don't know of a single district in my area that uses it. Most use either Every Day Mathematics :ack2: or Houghton-Mifflin.

 

And even then, these kids would presumably go to high school before attending college. I don't think Singapore Standards Ed. has been around long enough to even have kids who've been through the whole primary program start high school.

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I don't believe it.

 

SM math is implemented in very few CA schools (I looked and looked and couldn't find any around here). And for somebody whose kid gets a dose of PS math (enVision in our case) and SM (at home), such suggestions make me smile.

I also think he must have confused SM with Saxon.

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  • 5 months later...

I'd be willing to bet he's referring to students who've used Saxon. It has a reputation for producing math students who have memorized formulas and can 'plug 'n chug' all day without much understanding. I speak from experience...my older daughter is unfortunately in that boat currently. We're trying to amend this situation, but are using a combo of SM and Math Mammoth with the youngers.

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I know this is an old thread, but as a college professor in a math-based field, I had to laugh out loud at this assertion. It would have never cross my mind to inquire as to what elementary math program my poorly-performing students used. Heck, I'm betting they wouldn't even remember themselves! Further, if this FIL is a dean, then he's been removed from the classroom for quite a while.

 

Anyhoo, I'm perfectly happy with SM as our main math program. Do I add in review and stretch with plenty of supplementals (e.g., BA, MM, etc.)? Sure, but that may have more to me being a curriculum junkie than SM being inadequate...

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Another vote for someone being confused with Saxon, which I know a lot of private schools use. I don't think that would be an accurate statement for Singapore, don't think Singapore has been around that long or is that popular, and I don't think he'd know who used it. Saxon, on the other hand, also starts with S, is used by many private schools, has been around a long time, and frequently has the same claims made against it.

Edited by kebg11
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I used NEM level 1 for my 7th grade son last year; he had been a K-6 grad of Singapore Math. I found it to be a challenging program with an integrated approach. Some of the geometry problems were amazingly difficult; I had geometry the non-integrated way in the 80's, in 9th grade, and never encountered something this difficult. The text took some getting used to, but had tons of practice problems (esp. in the supplementary workbook) and tests. My son showed some of the word problems to a public school buddy of his in the same grade and the other kid was blown away by the difficulty level. Hope this helps.

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Another vote for someone being confused with Saxon, which I know a lot of private schools use. I don't think that would be an accurate statement for Singapore, don't think Singapore has been around that long or is that popular, and I don't think he'd know who used it. Saxon, on the other hand, also starts with S, is used by many private schools, has been around a long time, and frequently has the same claims made against it.

 

Guaranteed!

 

Saxon has been around for a long time and it well known in the education world. While there are many schools who use Singapore now, I had never even heard of it in the public school world until about 2004.

 

There is no way it's Singapore, and furthermore, there is no way there are enough kids in college now who have been exposed long enough to Singapore to have it make such an impact on their skills.

 

ETA: Plus, there are many educators who HATE Saxon. I mean, with a passion!!! (I hate it too, only because it was a BEAST to teach. I think it could be great for a homeschooler though.)

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Not to point any fingers or make any accusations, but didn't we have a remarkably similar quote from some poster's old professor about 2 years ago? It was a poster who kept posting and wanting her Saxon choice supported, I think...

 

 

Anyway: where is this professor meeting a statistically significant number of SM users?

 

Here is the thread, and it became rather funny:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?p=2740266#poststop

No pictures of kilts, however.

Edited by kalanamak
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I could see, possibly, kids who are using Singapore Math (or any integrated math program) at the secondary level being difficult to place should they go back to a US-style divided math program. It's the same problem that is often faced in music theory-there are simply so many different sequences and ways to cut it up that it's very possible for a student to have completed more topics in Theory III than in Theory I in a school's sequence. But that's different from "Is not prepared for higher math" (or higher music theory, for that matter). It simply is a placement issue that has to be worked with as needed, and it's not an unusual situation at ALL for any program that has sequential classes, especially when you've got students entering not only from different US curricula, but potentially from different countries as well.

 

As far as meeting a statistically significant number...I have advised enough Asian music majors to realize that there are certain areas of theory normally taught in US programs that often Asian students are weak on, and others where they typically far outpace US students (although most of my examples are grad students, not undergrad). Maybe the math professor has seen similar patterns among non-US STEMs students?

Edited by dmmetler
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I'd want to know which sort of math department he is dean of. Our local university has two math departments: one math department is for people who want to become mathematicians; the other is for people who want to become math teachers. Each department has a very outspoken professor/dean (not sure of their positions) who weighs in on all the local press articles on our local math war. The math education guy is very pro fuzzy/investigations/TERC. The other guy, the "real" mathematician, is very anti fuzzy, and speaks up in favor of the state adopting Singapore.

 

Makes it easy for the local reporters to find "experts" to support their stories.

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I Each department has a very outspoken professor/dean (not sure of their positions) who weighs in on all the local press articles on our local math war. The math education guy is very pro fuzzy/investigations/TERC. The other guy, the "real" mathematician, is very anti fuzzy, and speaks up in favor of the state adopting Singapore.

 

And why we need careful research, for mathy people might need a different program than non-mathy people. Here is a case for PROFILING, IMO.

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President Obama's older daughter uses SM, according to NY Times, so if it's good enough for her, it's good enough for the rest us. :D

 

Yes, here's the link to a 2010 article about it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/education/01math.html

 

As others have said, it's simply not been around long enough for college profs anywhere to see large numbers of kids yet who have done Singapore for any length of time.

 

The percentage of kids currently doing it must be relatively small when compared to other programs.

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and knows that that a lot of Singapore math users here in the US are homeschoolers.

 

I love Singapore math! My kids think it is so cool that the pictures of the textbook show Chicken Satay in their word problems rather than hamburgers and hotdogs and french fries! They quoted this themselves " The textbooks in the schools just use hamburgers/hotdogs and french fries" We eat a lot of Thai food and so they knew just what that was when they saw it in their 4A textbook! :tongue_smilie:

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I find it fascinating that a college dean claims to be able determine what students used in grades 1-6. Seeing as he would have seen them a minimum of 6 years after the fact, that is quite a trick. I might take it more seriously if he had something to say about the intervening 6 years of math instruction.

 

That is like a professor of English being able to determine what literature program someone used in grades 1-6.

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Maybe this dean is from New York. Relatives of my husband's live in NY and the two kids went to the Hunter magnet high school and told me they used Singapore Math. One is halfway through college and one graduated this year.

Edited by Kathleen.
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  • 11 months later...
Guest SisterMargaret

@forager bee,  Many professors of education are biased against Singapore Math.  Because Singapore Text books do not resemble the widely used 'huge hardback" textbooks used by most public school districts (published by the big American EducationPublishers), many assume the Singapore Math texts in their simplicity do not provide enough  1. practice for the students or 2. guidance to the teachers.  The remedy to the simple soft cover A/B tex books by grade is simply purchase a few of the many 'extra problem" practice books (can be copied etc.).  The solution to the 'not enough guidance for teachers" is purchase the home teaching guides and/or Singapore Math Elementary Math for Teachers  http://www.singaporemath.com/Elementary_Mathematics_for_Teachers_p/emft.htm

 

My kids had no trouble transitioning to higher math and my first to take the SAT scored a 720 in math with no SAT prep course!  I am finding that my other two kids who were not home schooled with Singapore, but used the public school math textbooks,  now need remedial math in high school in order to do well.  So, I am using the Singapore to review and reteach the core Geometry and Algebra concepts in the hopes I can remediate them over the next two years.  I have total faith in Singapore from my child's experiences and my own experience 'learning" what I needed to teach my kids.  Amazing program.

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I think it's strange that a college professor would have an opinion on how children learned in primary school. Any child using Primary Mathematics would have done something else for high school math, and you'd think children would hit the skids there if PM is unusually weak.

 

SM does not include much drill or review, but nearly all children in Singapore are taking supplementary drill. Cram school is very widespread there. 

 

I've used SM up to 4A.

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