College Debt Question

[Homeschoolnewbe]

I am reading a post from CollegeConfidential about a young lady who wants to go to NYU. She is certain that taking out loans in excess of $20,000 per year is the way to go. What is more shocking is that she fully expects her parents to assist her by also taking out loans in the same amount if necessary!:blink:

I pleaded with her on the post to reconsider, she informed the thread that debt was a way of life...

 

My question is this... what would you say to your child who told you that they wanted to go to this one college only, Bad Financial & Merit Aid University, and they need you to co-sign loans totalling about $100,000 over 4 years for them to do it. Would you do it? What is the limit to what you would do? How do you dissuade them?

Would you dissuade them?

[Starr]

I wouldn't do it and I hope and pray I don't get asked.

[TranquilMind]

I am reading a post from CollegeConfidential about a young lady who wants to go to NYU. She is certain that taking out loans in excess of $20,000 per year is the way to go. What is more shocking is that she fully expects her parents to assist her by also taking out loans in the same amount if necessary!:blink:

I pleaded with her on the post to reconsider, she informed the thread that debt was a way of life...

 

My question is this... what would you say to your child who told you that they wanted to go to this one college only, Bad Financial & Merit Aid University, and they need you to co-sign loans totalling about $100,000 over 4 years for them to do it. Would you do it? What is the limit to what you would do? How do you dissuade them?

Would you dissuade them?

I'd say no. I've always told them we will not do this. I will not co-sign a loan. Even the Bible tells you not to become a surety for another.

 

We did purchase rental property that could be sold when college time came, and if that works out, great. If not, my highly intelligent kids are going to have to use their brains to figure out how to make college happen. I did.

[justasque]

That is why parents should play a very active role in helping their children find college options that are a good fit, academically and financially, and why they should begin to lay the groundwork, expectations-wise, early on. Parents ask different questions and look at different attributes than students when looking at schools.

[alpidarkomama]

I simply wouldn't do what we cannot afford.

[creekland]

Mine have known that finances are a major consideration toward where they may go to college since about 3 years ago (when we lost our savings with the economic downfall). We've talked quite a bit about how there are colleges that are equally as good as others, but offer decent aid. We've put more emphasis on getting good ACT scores in order to qualify for good aid. Oldest scored high enough for his first choice (not free, but affordable). Middle is even higher. Youngest won't be as high as middle son, but he's seen the offers come in based in part upon those scores and is doing what he can to score as high as possible next year.

 

So, in short, no, there's no way I'd support anything over $40,000 or so total in loans to any undergrad college. My preference (and what we are aiming for) is $20,000 or less for all four years (not per year). If our personal economy rebounds, we can repay this for the boys. If not, that level of debt is affordable based upon their planned jobs.

 

Middle son will also have med school if he continues on his current path. We will see what we can do to assist with that when/if the time comes. That may be higher debt.

 

I do feel some debt is worth it to go to a "better" college (better depends upon major and life plan) as I've seen many grads from no-name/'reputation within their major' colleges not be able to get jobs and wonder why. But, a "better" college doesn't have to cost a lot.

 

There's no way I'd remotely consider NYU.

 

I'm confident that our kids won't even ask for such a thing. The oldest two haven't. Youngest is checking out cost (actual cost possibilities - not sticker price) along with checking out potential colleges.

[choirfarm]

I pleaded with her on the post to reconsider, she informed the thread that debt was a way of life...

 

 

This is a family culture problem. Obviously this is what she has SEEN in her life. She probably won't reconsider because her parents think like this. For us, we started saving for college from the time they were babies.. It is automatically debited. My husband's parents did the same for him. We talk about how important it is to save for what you want around here. We also talk about debt A LOT. When we use credit cards, we discuss that we pay it off each month in full and that we earn airline miles that way. ( Enough to pay for all 5 of us to go to Europe!!!!) If we couldn't ever pay them off in a month, then we should cut them up. We've discussed how we paid off our house and then have the money that went into our mortgage automatically put in investment accounts so we don't see it and can't spend it. My boys would ask, "Do you have a coupon for that?" when we would go shopping. They have learned to wait until Madden 12 comes out so they can get Madden 11 REALLY cheap. To them it is still a new game. I remember my oldest wanting a Star Wars DVD game. It was 50 dollars. He waited until it eventually went on clearance for 15 dollars before he bought it. It is about parents not buying everything they want and not putting themselves in debt to do it. I see absolutely no reason for a person to have a cell phone until they are driving. I think I am the last person on the planet to think that. And even though my oldest has a phone, it is off most of the time when he is home. He is still capable of carrying on a conversation at a meal instead of texting other people. But I digress...

[JFSinIL]

I simply wouldn't do what we cannot afford.

 

Agree. The only reason the first kid here off to college is at a LAC is due to merit aid making it cheaper for us than any state school. The next kids to go have to also get merit aid (not as likely) or go to cc and transfer or pick an out-of-state public school that is still cheaper then in-state (I'm looking at you, Minnesota and Missouri!)

[Brenda in MA]

So, in short, no, there's no way I'd support anything over $40,000 or so total in loans to any undergrad college. My preference (and what we are aiming for) is $20,000 or less for all four years (not per year).

 

This is our thinking as well. Try as hard as possible to find merit aid. Apply to a good number of schools so you can compare the offers in the spring. When choosing schools to apply to, make sure the student has at least 1 or 2 choices that will definitely be affordable. Often times, these will be a local state college or university that the student could commute to. Try to manage the student's expectations and help him/her see that there is not one "dream" school that he/she must attend.

 

If you've helped the student select schools well, then he/she should have some options come spring when it's time to choose.

 

I think some debt is OK, but more than the Stafford Loan limits (~$31K for the 4 years, which a student can apply for without a co-signer) is a very bad idea.

 

OP -- it boggles my mind when I read stories like the one you mentioned. There are clearly many, many articles about students who have taken on this much debt and how it is really limiting their future. Why these prospective college freshman aren't willing to learn from those who have gone before is just puzzling.

 

Brenda

[memphispeg]

My eldest dd got an almost free ride at her SLAC, due to being v. smart. But, she will end up with some loans to pay back. We are hoping it will only max out at about $7500, which seems pretty do-able. We have been living on the edge for the last few years, economics wise....I just hope both kids can get through college somehow with out a lot of debt.

FYI - My eldest dd really wanted to attend NYU for a while, I nixed the idea b/c all I saw was an opportunity to run up debt....It is v. expensive to live in NYC, never mind try to go to school there as well.

My youngest dd will have to go to whatever one of her college choices winds up being the "cheapest" for her and for us (she applied in a v. focussed way for v. specific programs). Fingers crossed here for a couple of private SLACs who would possibly do v. well for her in terms of financial aid.

That said, dh and I would like to be able to have some fun once dd2 is at school, I'd be nice to be able to go to dinner and a movie every now and then;) So we do not want a huge financial onus over our heads anymore.

Got to have funds to re-invent our lives for the upcoming "3rd phase" of adulthood.

[curlylocks]

This is a family culture problem. Obviously this is what she has SEEN in her life. She probably won't reconsider because her parents think like this. For us, we started saving for college from the time they were babies.. It is automatically debited. My husband's parents did the same for him. We talk about how important it is to save for what you want around here. We also talk about debt A LOT. When we use credit cards, we discuss that we pay it off each month in full and that we earn airline miles that way. ( Enough to pay for all 5 of us to go to Europe!!!!) If we couldn't ever pay them off in a month, then we should cut them up. We've discussed how we paid off our house and then have the money that went into our mortgage automatically put in investment accounts so we don't see it and can't spend it. My boys would ask, "Do you have a coupon for that?" when we would go shopping. They have learned to wait until Madden 12 comes out so they can get Madden 11 REALLY cheap. To them it is still a new game. I remember my oldest wanting a Star Wars DVD game. It was 50 dollars. He waited until it eventually went on clearance for 15 dollars before he bought it. It is about parents not buying everything they want and not putting themselves in debt to do it. I see absolutely no reason for a person to have a cell phone until they are driving. I think I am the last person on the planet to think that. And even though my oldest has a phone, it is off most of the time when he is home. He is still capable of carrying on a conversation at a meal instead of texting other people. But I digress...

 

:iagree: -- and you're not the last person to think this way. ;)

 

We would not do it...period...end of discussion.

Edited January 18, 2012 by curlylocks

[butterflymommy]

I absolutely would not do it... we can't, we have 7 children.

 

I know people with 2 children who take out huge loans to send them to private colleges, I just don't get it. I live in an area with some excellent/ competitive public colleges/ universities.

 

Right now we do not plan to pay for room and board, though if our situation improves we might consider it, though again, only for a public college.

[Barbara H]

To me this is a problem that needs to be addressed earlier in the college search process. NYU is known for not great financial aid and for really high expenses due to the location. So, I the parents would be better off to be really straight forward early in the process about what money they can and will provide before kid gets fixated on a single "dream" school. Get a more realistic list of options earlier in the process.

 

I would also suggest looking at the calculators on finaid.org to see what the monthly loan payment would be like and hopefully that will encourage more realistic thinking.

[Homeschoolnewbe]

That sad part is I hear more and more teens talking this way. "Just get a loan". Someone posted on the thread that her likely payments would be in the range of $1200/mo, but she was unfazed!:eek:

She informed the thread that her sister? had gone to Northeastern on loans and was doing great. She could do the same.

The sad part is... if her payments are $1200/mo her parents will be paying the almost the same amount!!! She didn't even mention it!!!!!!

I just cannot CANNOT see that being okay?

[readinmom]

Someone has to pay this money back, but I don't think young people understand how far reaching college loans are. I was watching Suze Orman's new show and she had a different philosophy regarding the debt repayment. She said college loans stay with you for life. They (govt.) will never stop coming after you, it cannot be written off. Ever. This was the first thing people in debt should work on.

 

Our experience:

 

We received a letter saying that the school had decided to eliminate book sales due to financial upheaval many parents were experiencing. Students would receive a loaner set of books for the classes to be returned at the end of the course. Good news, we thought.

 

We received another letter two weeks later stating that they were raising tuition.

 

Son's scholarship was cut, we could not afford the loans. He is sitting this year out. I feel bad for him, but this economy is awful, to say the least. I wish I could go back in time and say go to cc. Hindsight...we could never have predicted (but should have been prepared for) the loss of dh's job.

 

I don't know how or if my other dc will be able to go to college.

[creekland]

That sad part is I hear more and more teens talking this way. "Just get a loan". Someone posted on the thread that her likely payments would be in the range of $1200/mo, but she was unfazed!:eek:

She informed the thread that her sister? had gone to Northeastern on loans and was doing great. She could do the same.

The sad part is... if her payments are $1200/mo her parents will be paying the almost the same amount!!! She didn't even mention it!!!!!!

I just cannot CANNOT see that being okay?

 

She may be in for a rude awakening if her parents can't qualify to be co-signers for the loan. Many students are. There's only so much they can get in student loans without a cosigner (somewhere around 31K for 4 years). If her parents also put her sister through school with loans, my thoughts tend to wonder if her parents can qualify for even more...

 

But, I agree that loans are the mindset of many in the next generation. I've heard many in high school talk of borrowing 100 - 200K for dubious (repayment-wise) degrees. When I questioned the wisdom of the 200K place, I was told, "but it's ______, and you only get an opportunity to go there once!" That was for a music degree. Many of the 100K degrees are for kids wanting culinary degrees - a field I believe one doesn't really need a degree in just yet. I've also heard of several going to for-profit art institutes... places notorious for high cost and low returns.

 

It's a mindset.

[Janice in NJ]

Punch the numbers in here.

 

http://apps.collegeboard.org/fincalc/sla.jsp'>http://apps.collegeboard.org/fincalc/sla.jsp

 

Scenario # 1:

 

If the student borrows $ 20K per year for four years at 6.8%, the total amount to be repaid is $ 110,477.

 

Consolidated Borrowing Summary $ 80000 Grand total principal you have borrowed or expect to borrow

$ 30477 Total interest to be repaid

$ 110477 Total amount of principal and interest to be repaid

 

The monthly payment would be $921. IF the student can manage to find a first job @ $50K per year, this is the breakdown from the site:

 

$ 921 Combined monthly repayment

Are Your Projected Student Loan Payments "Manageable"?

Is your projected monthly payment of $ 921 manageable in relation to your estimated starting salary of $ 50000 when you graduate from college? There is no single, easy answer to this question, but some advisers suggest that your monthly student loan repayments should not exceed 10-15 percent of your first year starting income. If student loan repayments exceed 15 percent of your starting income, they could be burdensome and you may experience difficulty meeting your student loan repayments and other expenses. You estimated that your starting income could be approximately: $50000 per year, or $ 4167 per month in today's dollars. You also indicated that you expect to receive your degree in 2014, in about 2 years. Assuming starting incomes increase by 3 percent per year between now and 2014, we estimate your starting income could be approximately $4420 per month. Based on this information, your estimated montly student loan repayments — $ 921 — would represent about 21 percent of your projected monthly income —$ 4420.

 

It would be good to keep in mind that a single person making $50K will pay about 25% or $12,500 in taxes per year.

 

$50,000 per year minus $ 12,500 in taxes minus $ 11,052 in college loans = $ 26,448 per year left over to live on.

This gives the kid with the college diploma $ 508 per week to live on. Not nearly as exciting as it first seems.

 

A more realistic scenario:

 

According to USA Today, four-year colleges graduate 53% of students in six years.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-06-03-diploma-graduation-rate_N.htm

 

According to the Times, the average starting salary was $ 27,000. "The median starting salary for students graduating from four-year colleges in 2009 and 2010 was $27,000..."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/business/economy/19grads.html

 

If the child is borrowing $ 20K per year and the parents are doing the same, the real cost is $ 40,000 per year. Run the numbers into the calculator ($40K per year for six years @ 6.8% with a starting salary of $27,000:

 

http://apps.collegeboard.org/fincalc/sla.jsp

 

Principle borrowed: $ 240,000

Interest to be repaid: $ 91,431

Total Amount to be repaid: $ 331,432

Monthly Payment: $ 2,762

 

Here's the summary:

Are Your Projected Student Loan Payments "Manageable"?

Is your projected monthly payment of $ 2762 manageable in relation to your estimated starting salary of $ 27000 when you graduate from college? There is no single, easy answer to this question, but some advisers suggest that your monthly student loan repayments should not exceed 10-15 percent of your first year starting income. If student loan repayments exceed 15 percent of your starting income, they could be burdensome and you may experience difficulty meeting your student loan repayments and other expenses. You estimated that your starting income could be approximately: $27000 per year, or $ 2250 per month in today's dollars. You also indicated that you expect to receive your degree in 2015, in about 3 years. Assuming starting incomes increase by 3 percent per year between now and 2015, we estimate your starting income could be approximately $2459 per month. Based on this information, your estimated montly student loan repayments — $ 2762 — would represent about 112 percent of your projected monthly income —$ 2459.

 

Ummmm... and this doesn't even take taxes into consideration.....

 

Oh. And another bleak slice of info: not everyone who takes out those loans will be paying them back with one of those college-degree-level jobs. Not everyone who starts college gets a degree. Once again, we don't talk about these things:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/27/education/27remediation.html

 

OK. So if you want to stick to the guidelines, what does it look like? If you borrow $ 3,800 per year for six years and graduate and get a job with the average starting salary of $ 27,000 THEN your loan payment will be 10% of your salary. The lower end of the recommendation.

 

The upper end of the recommendation says 15% of your salary. That's borrowing $ 5,500 per year for six years.

 

BUT remember six years is not a magic number. Plenty of kids still don't have a diploma after six years......

 

Do the math. Think before you sign.

 

Peace,

Janice

[K-FL]

I always think of the Anne Hathaway character from Valentine's Day telling why she's a phone s*x operator:

 

Liz: OK, um. I'm broke. I have a 100K student loan, I have absolutely no idea how I'm going to pay off, I have no health insurance. And, so, if you know of a job, that will pay a poetry-major $40 an hour with her clothes on, I'm all ears.

[Homeschoolnewbe]

I always think of the Anne Hathaway character from Valentine's Day telling why she's a phone s*x operator:

 

Liz: OK, um. I'm broke. I have a 100K student loan, I have absolutely no idea how I'm going to pay off, I have no health insurance. And, so, if you know of a job, that will pay a poetry-major $40 an hour with her clothes on, I'm all ears.

 

:smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

[J-rap]

I would not do it, but then I know my children would never ask. I can't imagine even considering it. That attitude begins early on in a family.

[Medstudent]

*shrug* I didn't borrow nearly that much, but my mom would have been fine if I had, so I'd feel selfish taking that option away from my kids. I think it would be largely dependent on their plans for the future- if you're just going to be an English major or a pottery major or something, you can go to a state school. I'd still encourage them to go to the very best state school there is, and I'd still contribute as much as I can, but I'd be less likely to cosign 100k worth of loans. My mom cosigned my undergrad loans (30k total I think, I don't remember exactly) and she contributed a chunk of her salary while she could afford it. For med school, I just took out Staffords, and I'll likely finish up med school + residency (with interest building the whole time) with 150-180k (again, not sure exactly how much, but that's the ballpark). And this is with a) maternal help during college and some small scholarships at the time, b) a job in between that paid off ~8k of my college principal, and c) a full-tuition scholarship for my med school (my loans are just for cost of living). Most people finish residency with 250k+ of debt. It is what it is. I can't imagine telling my kids not to follow their dream because of the debt. I think it makes sense to tell them to pick a cheaper school if where they go won't really matter anyway, but for something like med school or a Wall Street-type job, it absolutely matters. I feel like it'll be my job as a mother to support their dream if that's what they want to do, and I'd never tell them to go to a school that's "beneath them" in terms of grades/scores/whatever if they really need their school's name to accomplish their goal.

[raceNzanesmom]

Our ds wanted to go to art school. $45,000/year. Even after scholarships, grants, etc he'd have to come up with about $25,000 plus living expenses. He chose to do 2 years of community college in his field. He'll be 100% debt free when he graduates. At that time, he said he'll re-eval what to do to get his bachelor's. It may be just taking a class or two at a time, or it may be him getting in debt. He knows that is his choice. He has always known that his dad and I would not finance college. Our support is a home while he works and goes to school and any small supplementing he needs. I think because we've always been clear about our involvement, he's never expected us to go into debt for his education.

[creekland]

Most people finish residency with 250k+ of debt. It is what it is. I can't imagine telling my kids not to follow their dream because of the debt. I think it makes sense to tell them to pick a cheaper school if where they go won't really matter anyway, but for something like med school or a Wall Street-type job, it absolutely matters.

 

Right now my middle son's dream is to do medical missions. That could change in college, of course, but if he came out with 250K+ in debt, that alone would kill his dream.

 

According to every single doctor I've talked with and plenty of knowledgeable medical folks on college confidential, while the undergrad school matters some for med school, it doesn't matter a whole lot. They all recommend going to the best school with offering the least amount of undergrad debt. That's the route we're heading. It won't be Podunk U, but it need not be Prestige U either. There are probably 200 - 300 good choices out there, not 20 or 50.

 

Wall Street is different and it does matter there and those who are successful with that goal will earn higher amounts of $$. Those who are unsuccessful will be stuck paying for tons of debt without the salary if they used debt to try for their dream. To me, the risk wouldn't be worth it. There are good places other than Wall St to work and many of the most successful people didn't go to Prestige U for undergrad.

[Medstudent]

Right now my middle son's dream is to do medical missions. That could change in college, of course, but if he came out with 250K+ in debt, that alone would kill his dream.

 

According to every single doctor I've talked with and plenty of knowledgeable medical folks on college confidential, while the undergrad school matters some for med school, it doesn't matter a whole lot. They all recommend going to the best school with offering the least amount of undergrad debt. That's the route we're heading. It won't be Podunk U, but it need not be Prestige U either. There are probably 200 - 300 good choices out there, not 20 or 50.

 

Wall Street is different and it does matter there and those who are successful with that goal will earn higher amounts of $$. Those who are unsuccessful will be stuck paying for tons of debt without the salary if they used debt to try for their dream. To me, the risk wouldn't be worth it. There are good places other than Wall St to work and many of the most successful people didn't go to Prestige U for undergrad.

 

I think we're both saying the same thing, sort of. I agree that there are many, many schools that are good enough, and there are many, many careers that are good enough. The issue isn't whether you can be successful no matter what you do- of course you can. Heck, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs didn't even graduate college and they made more money than most of us can even fathom. There are certainly plenty of people at my school who went to lesser-known schools. Maybe even one or two from Podunk U. However, the question that was asked in the OP wasn't "is it possible to be successful if you choose the cheaper alternative", but "would you make your kids choose the cheaper alternative". My answer is, if the more expensive alternative would help them achieve their goals, then I would do whatever I need to do to make it happen for them. No, where you go to college isn't a huge deal, but it isn't insignificant either.

 

The truth of it is, when you start applying to med school (particularly the prestigious med schools) you begin to realize that a large percentage of the people you're on the interview trail with went to Prestigious U. It isn't pretty, but it's the truth. Every year it becomes more competitive, and every year each minor leg up counts more. That means that if you talk to a doctor in his 40s, he went to med school at a different time. Again, it is absolutely possible to go to a prestigious med school from a non-prestigious college, but if I were to put my money on something, I'd put my money on the more prestigious place. It's not just the name- it's that the professors are well-known, and the research coming out of the university is impressive, and there are many opportunities to get money to help with that research, and the premed advisor is well-respected among admissions officers, and there are opportunities to go on mission trips, and your classmates' parents are doctors who'll help you, and the alumni donate lots of money for the amazing medical library...etc etc. Heck I didn't even go to a school like that, and I got along just fine. But the issue is whether I'd push for my kids to have every possible door open to them, even if it meant shouldering the debt myself...and the answer is yes. I was raised to think that way. It may not be "right", but that's how I'd do it.

 

PS- I'm sort of making a fairly big comparison in my mind. I mean, in my head I'm comparing, say, Harvard to random-state-U. I realize the choices are often not that disparate. If my kids were to have to choose between, say, Stanford and UC Berkeley, they'd have to give me a really good argument for why Stanford is a better option since it costs so much more. Same for UNC vs Duke, etc.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Medstudent

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I am reading a post from CollegeConfidential about a young lady who wants to go to NYU. She is certain that taking out loans in excess of $20,000 per year is the way to go. What is more shocking is that she fully expects her parents to assist her by also taking out loans in the same amount if necessary!:blink:

I pleaded with her on the post to reconsider, she informed the thread that debt was a way of life...

 

My question is this... what would you say to your child who told you that they wanted to go to this one college only, Bad Financial & Merit Aid University, and they need you to co-sign loans totalling about $100,000 over 4 years for them to do it. Would you do it? What is the limit to what you would do? How do you dissuade them?

Would you dissuade them?

 

I might not be able to dissuade my child from wanting to attend a uni that costs that much.

 

I can certainly give him the example of withstanding pressure of family and peers in order to make choices that are wise for our position.

 

I have serious doubts about such a high priced school. I think the law of diminishing returns applies here. And my children don't have a right to my money, anymore than I have a right to demand my parents or in-laws cough up money for us.

[aggieamy]

My question is this... what would you say to your child who told you that they wanted to go to this one college only, Bad Financial & Merit Aid University, and they need you to co-sign loans totalling about $100,000 over 4 years for them to do it. Would you do it? What is the limit to what you would do? How do you dissuade them?

Would you dissuade them?

 

I wouldn't be able to answer immediately because DH and I would be laughing hysterically and rolling around on the floor. Once we caught our breath and stopped laughing if our child was still seriously considering that I would be blunt and tell them that they have a number of options based on our income and what we have saved and let them choose from those. We don't plan on being in that postition however because we've already started discussing colleges and majors that we will support. DH and I are very frugal Dave Ramsey people though. If we've got the money and a kid wants to go to Oxford then that'll be an option, if we've got the money for State U then that's the option, if something horrible happens and we don't have any money then we support going into the military first. We won't be doing student loans at all.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

*shrug* I didn't borrow nearly that much, but my mom would have been fine if I had, so I'd feel selfish taking that option away from my kids. I think it would be largely dependent on their plans for the future- if you're just going to be an English major or a pottery major or something, you can go to a state school. I'd still encourage them to go to the very best state school there is, and I'd still contribute as much as I can, but I'd be less likely to cosign 100k worth of loans. My mom cosigned my undergrad loans (30k total I think, I don't remember exactly) and she contributed a chunk of her salary while she could afford it. For med school, I just took out Staffords, and I'll likely finish up med school + residency (with interest building the whole time) with 150-180k (again, not sure exactly how much, but that's the ballpark). And this is with a) maternal help during college and some small scholarships at the time, b) a job in between that paid off ~8k of my college principal, and c) a full-tuition scholarship for my med school (my loans are just for cost of living). Most people finish residency with 250k+ of debt. It is what it is. I can't imagine telling my kids not to follow their dream because of the debt. I think it makes sense to tell them to pick a cheaper school if where they go won't really matter anyway, but for something like med school or a Wall Street-type job, it absolutely matters. I feel like it'll be my job as a mother to support their dream if that's what they want to do, and I'd never tell them to go to a school that's "beneath them" in terms of grades/scores/whatever if they really need their school's name to accomplish their goal.

 

I can totally see telling my kids the reality of their goals. The cost in terms of money, time, family sacrifice, etc to what they think they want at age 18-22.

 

FWIW, I know far too many women with even graduate degrees who are not working to think it's always a good choice to throw money at whatever dream career someone might have.

 

It was very easy, when I was 18 to say that I just wouldn't get married until I was 30. It was easy when I was an ensign to say that I wanted to become the captain of a big deck amphibious ship. It was a lot harder to watch my shipmate, who was stationed in one city, with her husband in another and her 2 year old in a third, being cared for by friends. It was painful to watch her have to pick between leaving her child home alone during a hurricane (because the nanny had the weekend off) or not coming to the ship during a general recall. There are points where you have to pick and choose between the things you want. Not everyone who wants a high priced college experience can afford it.

 

I will do much to help my kids attain their goals. Putting our household hundreds of thousands of dollars into hock is not necessarily a price I'm willing to pay.

[Hoggirl]

FWIW, I know far too many women with even graduate degrees who are not working to think it's always a good choice to throw money at whatever dream career someone might have.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this???

 

Could you explain, please?

[creekland]

I'm not sure what you mean by this???

 

Could you explain, please?

 

I'm not the person you quoted, so their thoughts may be different than mine, but I know I changed my mind about working full time after my kids were born and I don't regret it a second.

 

My income is less, my blessings are more of what I want.

 

I'm really glad I didn't go into high debt for my degree. What I had was easily paid off in a couple of years (literally).

 

I'm really glad hubby didn't go into high debt for his degree even though he works full time as an Engineer. We had his debts paid off in 5 years. I'm glad he had the debt so he could get the degree as it has paid off handsomely.

 

At 18 I couldn't have told you what my future was going to be. I know what I wanted, but I changed my mind (so did he).

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm not sure what you mean by this???

 

Could you explain, please?

 

What I mean is not that I think that college is a waste of time for women.

 

I do mean that within my circle of friends I know many women with degrees, including graduate degrees and professional certifications (nursing, teaching, law, journalism, military officers, librarian, just off the top of my head) who for various reasons find themselves not working.

 

In many of the cases I'm thinking of, this was a choice made because of the demands of being a military spouse. But not all. In some cases it just reflects a desire to spend time home with their kids. Or it reflects a non-military move necessitated by one career. (For example, the friend who is a lawyer moved from one coast to another and found the bar process too troublesome for her life situation with young kids. She is a volunteer with heavy time demands and also a court appointed advocate.)

 

I also know of several women who would probably like to take some time off, but can't because of college loans and/or the demands of their professional treadmill.

 

I am NOT a women don't go to college type. At All. I have both a batchelor's and a master's. I also incurred no college debt in getting them (one full ride scholarship with work payback and the other paid out of pocket). I'm very aware of the fact that this let me look at one career and say that I'd had quite enough, thank you. (I do, however, think that educated women make better life partners for all kinds of reasons. I laugh a bit when I find that I'm using my service academy degree in some oddball way, like teaching my kids about circuits.)

 

I only have sons, so my conversations will be a little different than if I had daughters. But some of the conversations would be the same. Why are you pursuing education field X? Is the price tag worth the benefit? What will you do with the credential? Is that the best way to get ahead in that field?

 

Just as an example, my undergrad is in English. I would not suggest that any of my sons pursue that major. There are too many grads, the field is something of a dead end, and the field has moved far into the margins of critical analysis.

 

Similarly, I've had computer science majors complain that their skills after four years of an expensive private school were only competitive with graduates of tech schools, who had additional actual experience (and a lot less debt).

 

And I don't plan to stroke a check for any of my kids to go find themselves. That's what hard work and a library card are for (imho).

 

Life plans have a way of changing on a dime. A field isn't what you thought it was when you were young and idealistic. A family member gets sick and health care becomes a priority. Or you decide that the money isn't worth the trade offs that come with the high stress job. I want my kids' lives to be full of options. I don't want them to be locked in by college debt.

 

Does that make more sense?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Sebastian (a lady)

[Hoggirl]

I do, however, think that educated women make better life partners for all kinds of reasons.

 

 

Does that make more sense?

 

 

Yes. I have two degrees and two professional licenses. I am of the camp that, "It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it." My "dream" was to become a lawyer. So, I did. I have never practiced as an attorney but did need the degree for a job I once had. I am very happily not working.

 

I just couldn't tell if you were saying it was waste if it wasn't being "used." I incurred no debt for either degree. My parents paid for the first and I paid for the second.

 

I do understand what you mean about the gender thing though. I mean - men are going to work. It does a worry me a bit when I think about the fact that my ds is considering music for an undergraduate degree. He isn't pie-in-the-sky, I'm going to be a star about it. And, I am trying to make sure he goes into it with eyes wide open. But, I sure wouldn't want him to pick something just because the perception is that he will be more employable. I don't think there are many guarantees these days.

 

ETA: Computer just kicked me off and out yesterday - hence the incomplete sentence at the end.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Hoggirl

[Medstudent]

Yes. I have two degrees and two professional licenses. I am of the camp that, "It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it." My "dream" was to become a lawyer. So, I did. I have never practiced as an attorney but did need the degree for a job I once had. I am very happily not working.

 

I just couldn't tell if you were saying it was waste if it wasn't being "used." I incurred no debt for either degree. My parents paid for the first and I paid for the second.

 

I do understand what you mean about the gender thing though. I mean - men are going to work. It does a worry me a bit when I think about the fact that my ds is considering music for an undergraduate degree. He isn't pie-in-the-sky, I'm going to be a star about it. And, I am trying to make sure he goes into it with eyes wide open. But, I sure wouldn't want him to pick something just because the perception is that he will be more employable. I don't think there are many guara

 

See, I disagree. It may stem from the fact that I grew up with only women. My mom was a SAHM with a linguistics degree when I was little, but when my dad died, she found herself needing to support three daughters, two of whom were college-age (I was 11). She comes from a very, very traditional society, and while her parents had wanted her to go to college, my grandfather had strongly encouraged "womanly pursuits", so she didn't pursue any of the "hard sciences", math or economics, and it never really occurred to her to go to grad school because by the time she'd graduated college, she was already married to my dad. She never had a full-time, real job because my dad's work made him move around all over the place and she followed him with daughters in tow. By the time that we were finally settled in one place, she was a SAHM through and through, and she loved it.

So when she found that she HAD to have a job so we wouldn't starve, she had to make a lot of sacrifices and had to start from the very bottom for it. The vast majority of her salary in the beginning went toward our education. Because of what happened to her, our gender is irrelevant. In fact, we are encouraged to pursue practical fields, and she feels very strongly that we must at the very least have the potential to be 100% financially independent. If we choose to have kids, great, but we must be able to support ourselves and our kids regardless of the presence of a second salary. When my dad died, my oldest sister was a freshman at MIT, and my middle sister was about to start college at an equally well-respected, expensive college. We literally lived on almost nothing for a few years so that they could have that opportunity. THAT'S how important it was to her. So, unsurprisingly, it's that important to me.

 

I actually get somewhat frustrated by receiving "girl-specific" advice. Even now this happens to me. Just a few weeks ago, I was doing a plastic surgery rotation and my boss, the surgeon, was this very nice, young guy who has four daughters. He asked me what field I'm interested in, and I told him I wasn't sure quite yet. He started recommending pediatrics and dermatology to me, which I found somewhat strange since he's a plastic surgeon, but I figured hey, maybe he just doesn't love his job. Next day I hear him talking to my male classmate, and he's telling him how much he loves surgery, how much fun it is, etc. So I go up to him and tell him that I, too, am really enjoying surgery and am considering it as a career. And he goes on this rant about the lifestyle, and how I won't want to be away from home that much, and won't I want to see my kids before they go to sleep (why doesn't HE?!), etc. I was horrified. I could not believe that I had been written off so quickly. I agree that lifestyle considerations should be important- but aren't they just as important for men as they are for women? Anyway, this conversation just made me think of that. I realize it may not specifically apply to anyone else on this board. I'm just touchy when it comes to this subject.

[creekland]

Because of what happened to her, our gender is irrelevant. In fact, we are encouraged to pursue practical fields, and she feels very strongly that we must at the very least have the potential to be 100% financially independent. If we choose to have kids, great, but we must be able to support ourselves and our kids regardless of the presence of a second salary. When my dad died, my oldest sister was a freshman at MIT, and my middle sister was about to start college at an equally well-respected, expensive college. We literally lived on almost nothing for a few years so that they could have that opportunity. THAT'S how important it was to her. So, unsurprisingly, it's that important to me.

 

 

This is how I was raised too. My parents divorced when I was 11 (and this was back in the days where I was the only student in my class with divorced parents). My mom was already working full time, so she did ok. I learned one should never 100% count a spouse for income. I ended up going AFROTC and getting a Physics degree.

 

Then I did get married... and worked for a bit until we had kids... then stayed home... then found I wasn't the type to be a "good" SAHM... so started part time at school... and found my niche.

 

If I ever needed to, I could go through the hoops to be able to teach full time and I definitely have decent recommendations from where I am now.

 

But, I'm in my niche and don't particularly want to leave. I enjoy part time hours while having more time for my family and other pursuits (we hike, camp, travel, etc).

 

I'm not sure that, at 18 or 20 or 24, most young adults really know what fits them well. I think we sort of slide into it by following what we enjoy (or not for those who hate their jobs/situation). It's best to head into a direction one enjoys (with decent job prospects), but keep minds open - and aware that it does cost $$ to live.

[Hoggirl]

See, I disagree. It may stem from the fact that I grew up with only women. My mom was a SAHM with a linguistics degree when I was little, but when my dad died, she found herself needing to support three daughters, two of whom were college-age (I was 11). She comes from a very, very traditional society, and while her parents had wanted her to go to college, my grandfather had strongly encouraged "womanly pursuits", so she didn't pursue any of the "hard sciences", math or economics, and it never really occurred to her to go to grad school because by the time she'd graduated college, she was already married to my dad. She never had a full-time, real job because my dad's work made him move around all over the place and she followed him with daughters in tow. By the time that we were finally settled in one place, she was a SAHM through and through, and she loved it.

So when she found that she HAD to have a job so we wouldn't starve, she had to make a lot of sacrifices and had to start from the very bottom for it. The vast majority of her salary in the beginning went toward our education. Because of what happened to her, our gender is irrelevant. In fact, we are encouraged to pursue practical fields, and she feels very strongly that we must at the very least have the potential to be 100% financially independent. If we choose to have kids, great, but we must be able to support ourselves and our kids regardless of the presence of a second salary. When my dad died, my oldest sister was a freshman at MIT, and my middle sister was about to start college at an equally well-respected, expensive college. We literally lived on almost nothing for a few years so that they could have that opportunity. THAT'S how important it was to her. So, unsurprisingly, it's that important to me.

 

I actually get somewhat frustrated by receiving "girl-specific" advice. Even now this happens to me. Just a few weeks ago, I was doing a plastic surgery rotation and my boss, the surgeon, was this very nice, young guy who has four daughters. He asked me what field I'm interested in, and I told him I wasn't sure quite yet. He started recommending pediatrics and dermatology to me, which I found somewhat strange since he's a plastic surgeon, but I figured hey, maybe he just doesn't love his job. Next day I hear him talking to my male classmate, and he's telling him how much he loves surgery, how much fun it is, etc. So I go up to him and tell him that I, too, am really enjoying surgery and am considering it as a career. And he goes on this rant about the lifestyle, and how I won't want to be away from home that much, and won't I want to see my kids before they go to sleep (why doesn't HE?!), etc. I was horrified. I could not believe that I had been written off so quickly. I agree that lifestyle considerations should be important- but aren't they just as important for men as they are for women? Anyway, this conversation just made me think of that. I realize it may not specifically apply to anyone else on this board. I'm just touchy when it comes to this subject.

 

Though I may have been unclear.

 

I believe education is VERY important for both men AND women. And, while I had a time in my life where I expected I would be a music major, that passed when I compared how my music teacher lived to how my family lived. But, it did come with sacrifice. My father was a physician (surgeon), and there certainly were evenings where I went to bed before he came home. So, rather than pursuing music, I went a much more "practical" route. However, I don't think that practicality should be the ONLY factor in making a college choice/career decision. But, I do think it should be *A* factor. I would be concerned about a daughter OR a son pursuing a less practical degree. And, I would certainly be concerned about taking on massive amounts of debt to pursue a major that likely would not be worth the cost of the investment. To me, that is the bigger issue about taking on debt for college: comparing the debt amount to what you will be able to realistically earn over the long haul. I think this comparison applies to both MEN and WOMEN.

 

I am truly sorry you lost your father when you were only 11. :grouphug: That is why I say, "Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." So, I don't think we really disagree. But, I still stand by the idea that it is much more likely that men are typically going to be the primary bread-winners. Someone HAS to be with the children - whether it is mom, dad, a nanny, or day-care workers away from the home. Typically, if someone stays at home, it is the woman who sacrifices career. Certainly, not always. We have some church acquaintances and the mom is an orthodontist and the dad stays at home. But, at least where I live, stay-at-home dads are not the norm. Highly educated stay-at-home moms are.

[MyThreeSons]

I told my son (and the financial aid officer at the college where he was accepted) that it would be fraudulent for me to sign for a loan -- that there was no reasonable expectation that I would ever be able to pay it back.

 

Ds accepted it -- I had warned him for years that I wouldn't borrow money. He ended up someplace else for his first couple of years and is very happy.