s/o piercing thread; so what if one was against circ?

[StaceyinLA]

How would you handle if you or dh were against circumcision? Would you go ahead with something that permanently altered your child just because you wanted to defer to dh or vice versa?

[Veritaserum]

The No vote wins there, too. ;) Before he read anything about it, dh wanted to do it. I did not. I would not have let it happen and I would have been furious if he went behind my back to do it. He changed his mind after more info, so it's a total non-issue now. And we are having our first boy about nine years after settling that debate. :tongue_smilie:

 

However, there is a huge difference between a 14yo wanting to pierce her own ears and my dh wanting to cut something off our son so that they would match. If my son chooses to get circumcised later, I will support that choice because it's his body. I could not support my husband's desire to alter our child's body to suit his own preferences because I did not feel it was our place to make that call.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I was against circ, but dh was adamantly for it. It's part of being Jewish for him. So he won that one. And actually, the ceremony done by the mohel was beautiful and did not resemble a screaming baby being strapped down to a board at all. I was thankful for that.

[AK_Mom4]

The No vote wins there, too. ;)

:iagree:

[StaceyinLA]

My son is not circ'd and dd did not circ dgs. Her husband wanted to, but she presented information to explain her position and basically told him she wouldn't sign consent forms. It was not really up for negotiation.

 

However, many women defer to their husbands on this issue just because he's a man and he has a penis. I think it's sad that one would allow permanent disfigurement just because of the belief that they have to defer to their husband at all times, even if they disagree.

[Soror]

That is a hill I would die on but I won him by power of logic, reason and persuasion :)

[Dustybug]

When we found out that my 2nd pregnancy was going to be a boy, this topic came up. I didn't want to circ. DH did. We talked about it, I presented information, and he was easily swayed (but his dad isn't circ'd so I think deep down, he really just didn't have a strong opinion either way, just was defaulting to the "norm."). However, had he put up a strong stance against it, I would have given him the same courtesy to explain to me why he wanted it done. If he was adamant, I would have deferred to him, but that is just how our marriage works.

 

I don't really view circ'ing as permanent disfigurement though, but that's not a debate I'm going to start here. :tongue_smilie:

[Jenny in Florida]

Honestly, I hadn't thought much about it before we found out we were having a boy.

 

I was sort of generally not comfortable with the idea of circumcision, but told my husband he had to make the call. He initially sort of leaned toward doing it but asked me for any research I could scrounge.

 

I asked our pediatrician about his official position, and he said he was "officially wishy-washy." He and his wife had four boys, the first two wee circumcised, but the two youngers weren't, because he had kept reading and thinking about the question. He told me he knew of no legitimate medical reason for it.

 

Then, I started researching and reading on my own and got more upset by the idea.

 

I shared my research with my husband, who almost immediately agreed to not circumcise our son.

 

If he had not changed his mind, I'm not sure what I would have done. I don't think I felt as strongly about the whole thing then as I do now. So, I might have let it go. But, honestly, if I had really put up a fight, my husband would have respected that, too.

[Night Elf]

DH and I researched the issue together before making a decision. I'm happy that he did not just demand something because of the reason that 'everyone else is doing it', or because 'it was good enough for me it should be good enough for the baby'. After researching, we agreed that it wasn't something that needed to be done and we have been fine with that decision. No regrets. Our son has actually told he is happy that we didn't do it either.

[Spy Car]

Yes wins, as it is the life affirming choice. We were both on the same page, so no conflict here.

 

Bill

[EKS]

I was against circ, but dh was adamantly for it. It's part of being Jewish for him. So he won that one.

 

Same here.

[jennsmile]

First was circ'd at the hosptial. Didn't find out gender didn't really know what was done.

 

2nd born at home. Knew a little more and strongly presented my case but DH was bent on it and willing to pay out of pocket for a mohel. So we went that route.

 

3rd was born at birth center and dh didn't push the issue.

 

This time it is a non issue it won't be done if we have another boy. He finally sees my point of view and realizes not everybody is circ'ing anymore.

[justamouse]

If I felt that strongly about it, I'd do what your daughter did.

 

When I go against my Dh, it's not behind his back, it's full on like your Dd.

[sewingmama]

That is a hill I would die on but I won him by power of logic, reason and persuasion :)

 

My DH REALLY wanted it done -I REALLY did not. No one was going to cut my precious newborns or it would be over my dead body. DH couldn't come up with a convincing enough reason except that "it looks better" :glare:

 

Luckily our first was girl - by the time our boy came along DH had softened and didn't want to cut his tiny baby either.

 

It also helped that it is no longer done as routine in Australia and we lived in a remote community that would have meant a 3 hour plane flight to the nearest city for a specialist to do it. We didn't have the money and I wasn't getting on a plane with a newborn so soon after birth.

 

Also when the nurse asked if we were having it done she asked with a real tone of disapproval and then shot DH a dirty look which made him shut up and not say a word :lol:

 

DH still hides behind the excuse "my wife wouldn't allow it" and I don't mind that - I know it was really because he turned soft at the sight of his tiny 6 pound premature boy and didn't want anyone hurting him ;)

 

When boy No.2 came along DH didn't even bring it up. :D

[amey311]

I can remember the consulting OB to the birth center where Thing 1 was born saying, "we'll work with you whatever your choice, but we firmly recommend that parents be on the same page with the decision. it will be staring back at you for the next several years." :tongue_smilie:

 

I was firmly against it, DH was very mildly of the "why wouldn't we" mindset. I described it somewhat roughly ("you'll have to stand there with our brand new infant while someone cuts off part of his penis") and he simply said, "if you feel that strongly about it...."

 

The Mothering magazine article by Paul Fleiss came out a couple months after Thing 1 was born and I had left it in the bathroom. DH ended up reading it and came out waving it around, angry that it had ever been "routine." He's a pretty great guy.

[TheAutumnOak]

This happened to us...I was against circ, DH felt strongly it should be done...After I gave birth to my oldest, I was asked to sign if I wanted him circ...I said "no" and right after me DH said, "I will sign"...I looked at him because I couldn't believe he had said that...He looked at me and said, "I am sorry Tahara, but I am signing for it if you won't"...It is the only time the "no vote" wasn't in play here...He signed for all three boys to be done, and I didn't give him a hard time about it...If it were only up to me, I wouldn't have signed...But it was not only up to me, so I had to get over it...Now, it is not such a big deal to me...I doubt that they will come to me when they are older asking "where is their foreskin", but if they do, DH said he would be happy to have that talk with them and explain his thinking...

ETA: DH is not circ...He read all the info but still felt strongly about having it done...

Edited January 15, 2012 by TheAutumnOak

[Impish]

I didn't have a strong opinion either way, so left it up to Wolf.

[laundrycrisis]

However,there is a huge difference between a 14yo wanting to pierce her own ears and my dh wanting to cut something off our son so that they would match.

 

There is no comparison to make. The issue is not altering the body with or without a parent's permission. The issue is the child's consent and wishes. An infant does not give consent or ask to be cut. A teen who wants pierced earlobes, which is no longer considered counterculture by any modern western society, cannot be compared to routine infant circ.

[laundrycrisis]

That is a hill I would die on but I won him by power of logic, reason and persuasion :)

 

:iagree:

[NicAnn]

There is no comparison to make. The issue is not altering the body with or without a parent's permission. The issue is the child's consent and wishes. An infant does not give consent or ask to be cut. A teen who wants pierced earlobes, which is no longer considered counterculture by any modern western society, cannot be compared to routine infant circ.

 

I totally agree. There is absolutely not the same. Infants can't consent. The foreskin will not grow back. Pierce ears close up...I've had mine done 4 times.

 

The circ issue is one I feel so strongly about (and I say this after much much research), that if Dh were to go against my wishes and get it done...there would be papers in his hand very soon after that.

[Sputterduck]

This happened to us...I was against circ, DH felt strongly it should be done...After I gave birth to my oldest, I was asked to sign if I wanted him circ...I said "no" and right after me DH said, "I will sign"...I looked at him because I couldn't believe he had said that...He looked at me and said, "I am sorry Tahara, but I am signing for it if you won't"...It is the only time the "no vote" wasn't in play here...He signed for all three boys to be done, and I didn't give him a hard time about it...If it were only up to me, I wouldn't have signed...But it was not only up to me, so I had to get over it...Now, it is not such a big deal to me...I doubt that they will come to me when they are older asking "where is their foreskin", but if they do, DH said he would be happy to have that talk with them and explain his thinking...

ETA: DH is not circ...He read all the info but still felt strongly about having it done...

 

What was his reasoning?

[Kathryn]

How would you handle if you or dh were against circumcision? Would you go ahead with something that permanently altered your child just because you wanted to defer to dh or vice versa?

 

No, I wouldn't. This is an issue I feel VERY strongly about. Luckily, DH is against it as well. But, if he weren't, in our house, the "no" vote wins.

[TheAutumnOak]

What was his reasoning?

 

He always wished it was done when he was born...He would have preferred that...He won't do it now as an adult (his brother had it done as an adult and also wished it was done when he was born because it is more painful and more healing time as an adult)...He didn't want the boys to grow up wishing they had it done, so he had it done for them...Because he grew up wanting that, he felt very strongly about making sure his sons, if he ever had any, were done at birth...

 

My mom expressed the same reasoning for why she had my ears pierced in infancy...Her ears were never pierced, she always wished they were but didn't want to do it as an adult, so she made sure her daughters were done before they could remember it...Not saying the two are the same, but their reasoning is similar...I am happy my ears are pierced, and I can only hope my sons won't mind their circ when they are older...

[Annie]

I would not defer to my husband on this issue. It's a hill I would die on. I would, however, defer to him on on ear piercing issue.

 

Thankfully, my husband and I were on the same page when it came to circumcision. I made sure of that before I got pregnant.

[TheAutumnOak]

The only hills I can think of that I am willing to die on in my marriage are hills that include infidelity, violence, drug use, or gambling...We will work out everything else...

[SKL]

Personally that is something I would let the father decide. I have heard the pros and cons many times over, and lived in the world a long time, and my conclusion is that the foreskin doesn't make or break the man. The men I have seriously dated were both uncirc'd, from communities that don't circ, and absolutely horrified by the thought. Although I laughed at them for acting like their foreskin was the most important part of their personhood (after all, I have gotten along without one all these years), I would certainly defer to them on the matter if we had a son together. But I know why my mom circ'd her younger sons - because the oldest needed it done at age 3; not pleasant. So let's just say I'm glad I never had to make the decision myself (I only have daughters).

 

ETA: Why does it have an "exclamatin" in the header of my post? I didn't intentionally put that (or anything else) there.

Edited January 15, 2012 by SKL

[VeganCupcake]

In both cases, I think the "leave things as they are" vote should win if parents disagree on something like this. If there is no urgent medical reason to have it done, then it can wait until the child reaches adulthood and can make the decision.

 

I basically said "over my dead body" and my DH accepted that; though he leaned toward having it done, he did not feel as strongly as I did. If he had insisted--well, he's definitely not the type to do that about something that is not medically necessary.

 

Women also have something very much like a foreskin. :)

[Mommy22alyns]

DH has the goods, so his word goes if we ever had a boy.

[caedmyn]

I was/am adamently against it but DH would and will not hear a word on the subject and he said YES. I felt like I didn't have a choice but to agree--he made it pretty clear he would have taken the boys in to get it done without my consent (and apparently the doctor's office told him they'd do it with just one parent's consent). I stayed in the room with my babies and it sucked. Especially the second time when DH & the doctor sat there and cracked jokes. I'm sure it'll happen the same way if we were to have another boy, but I will take them in alone this time and not have to deal with DH making it worse.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I told dh in no uncertain terms before we even married that there as no way no how I would EVER consent to unnecessary surgery for a child. I would NOT cut off part of their genitals in the hope that it may someday down the line discourage bad hygeine. My son has lived with his foreskin for nearly 7 years now and has kept it clean. :)

[Heather in Neverland]

I didn't care either way so I left it up to dh.

[Dustybug]

I can remember the consulting OB to the birth center where Thing 1 was born saying, "we'll work with you whatever your choice, but we firmly recommend that parents be on the same page with the decision. it will be staring back at you for the next several years." :tongue_smilie:

 

 

:lol:

 

The only hills I can think of that I am willing to die on in my marriage are hills that include infidelity, violence, drug use, or gambling...We will work out everything else...

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

When threads like this pop up, and all the women that say, "I would die on this hill," or "I would NEVER tolerate...," or "I would do it anyway" etc., I always wonder what they would do if their husbands behaved like that. THEN it would be a thread about domineering husbands who need to change their patriarchal views. :confused:

 

To me marriage means compromise, sometimes on issues that may even be very important to one party or the other.

[Ester Maria]

How would you handle if you or dh were against circumcision? Would you go ahead with something that permanently altered your child just because you wanted to defer to dh or vice versa?

In my view and how I was raised, these are the decisions that ought to be agreed upon before they become a pressing issue. Preferably about the same time when prospective marriage matters in general are discussed. Just like with property arrangements and prenupts, if this issue is of a great importance to the couple, it is preferable to put the decision in writing and to specify, in a case of a disagreement, whose wishes will be followed.

 

We put it in writing as a result of the disagreement, but thankfully, three daughters later and unlikely to have further children, it never turned out relevant to be applied.

[mommymilkies]

I am against circ. I do believe that a 13 yo is able to make the choice about ear piercing, though. But not an infant by any means.

[mommymilkies]

:lol:

 

 

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

When threads like this pop up, and all the women that say, "I would die on this hill," or "I would NEVER tolerate...," or "I would do it anyway" etc., I always wonder what they would do if their husbands behaved like that. THEN it would be a thread about domineering husbands who need to change their patriarchal views. :confused:

 

To me marriage means compromise, sometimes on issues that may even be very important to one party or the other.

Well I guess if my dh were for something that violated what I consider a human rights issue, he wouldn't be my dh. ;)

[Julie Smith]

Well I guess if my dh were for something that violated what I consider a human rights issue, he wouldn't be my dh. ;)

 

It's a hill I would die on. But then again we talked about lots of things before marriage so we knew which hills we would die on. Happily all our hills matched up. (Or it was a hill that I would die on, and dh never even thought about it and was happy to leave me my hill)

[AimeeM]

This definitely falls under the "find out before marrying and having children" list. Same as discipline, religion, education, parenting methods, money, and marital roles.

[NicAnn]

Well I guess if my dh were for something that violated what I consider a human rights issue, he wouldn't be my dh. ;)

 

:iagree:

[Veritaserum]

Well I guess if my dh were for something that violated what I consider a human rights issue, he wouldn't be my dh. ;)

 

:iagree: Dh insisting we do something that I believe violates our child's human rights = divorce. Elective surgery to amputate an infant's normal body part that poses no health danger is not something I could agree to for any reason. It's a hill worth dying on. I could not respect or stay married to a man who would force me to consent to such a procedure or (WORSE) do it behind my back. I would never forgive him for that. If we had been unable to come to a peaceful resolution, the issue would have destroyed our marriage either way. I wasn't willing to let the destruction come from me allowing the violation of my son's right to bodily integrity.

 

I grew up with intact as the norm and problem-free, so I really was not going to humor dh's arguments for cleanliness or health protection or looks. Once he read actual data on the potential benefits and risks, he agreed that if it wasn't necessary then we shouldn't do it. I love my logical, open-minded man. :)

[Spy Car]

Someone on the internet is wrong :D

 

Bill

[justamouse]

He always wished it was done when he was born...He would have preferred that...He won't do it now as an adult (his brother had it done as an adult and also wished it was done when he was born because it is more painful and more healing time as an adult)...He didn't want the boys to grow up wishing they had it done, so he had it done for them...Because he grew up wanting that, he felt very strongly about making sure his sons, if he ever had any, were done at birth...

 

My mom expressed the same reasoning for why she had my ears pierced in infancy...Her ears were never pierced, she always wished they were but didn't want to do it as an adult, so she made sure her daughters were done before they could remember it...Not saying the two are the same, but their reasoning is similar...I am happy my ears are pierced, and I can only hope my sons won't mind their circ when they are older...

 

 

We had the same thing happen in our family. My oldest son was uncirced, had horrible problems up until then, and had to be circed at 11. It was horrible. But because of the problems we had with Ds1, we had the other two boys circed.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

When threads like this pop up, and all the women that say, "I would die on this hill," or "I would NEVER tolerate...," or "I would do it anyway" etc., I always wonder what they would do if their husbands behaved like that. THEN it would be a thread about domineering husbands who need to change their patriarchal views. :confused:

 

To me marriage means compromise, sometimes on issues that may even be very important to one party or the other.

 

But, when that decision infringes upon another person's body then it IS a hill to die on. If my dh were insisting that our dd HAD to get her ears pierced.....again: NO. That person who owns the ears or penis should decide.

[melissel]

I agree that for me it would probably be a hill to die on, and for the reasons why. If DH had very strongly held opinions and valid reasons why (e.g., he himself had problems because he wasn't circ'ed--and teasing/perception doesn't count), I might be more persuadable. Otherwise, I feel very, very strongly about the issue, and I don't allow anyone to do what I consider to be harm to my children, not even my DH.

 

In my view and how I was raised, these are the decisions that ought to be agreed upon before they become a pressing issue. Preferably about the same time when prospective marriage matters in general are discussed. Just like with property arrangements and prenupts, if this issue is of a great importance to the couple, it is preferable to put the decision in writing and to specify, in a case of a disagreement, whose wishes will be followed.

 

We put it in writing as a result of the disagreement, but thankfully, three daughters later and unlikely to have further children, it never turned out relevant to be applied.

 

About this, I can't possibly be the only person whose opinions on some of the big things changed over time, can I? Or who simply didn't think about certain issues before they arose? When DH and I got married, I thought children needed to be in daycare to be raised properly and that SAHMs were overly obsessed with their children. We discussed and came to agreements accordingly. Fast forward three years, and all my opinions were different. And how I'd feel about circumcising a son never even crossed my mind. Before I was pregnant, I just thought that was what was done, by everyone, everywhere. What did I know about it?

 

We discussed what we knew to discuss and came to agreements on everything we could, but I don't think it's always possible to hash every single issue out before agreeing to marry. Stuff comes up. People change. Even when they didn't think they would.

[caedmyn]

In my view and how I was raised, these are the decisions that ought to be agreed upon before they become a pressing issue. Preferably about the same time when prospective marriage matters in general are discussed. Just like with property arrangements and prenupts, if this issue is of a great importance to the couple, it is preferable to put the decision in writing and to specify, in a case of a disagreement, whose wishes will be followed.

 

We put it in writing as a result of the disagreement, but thankfully, three daughters later and unlikely to have further children, it never turned out relevant to be applied.

 

Who thinks of discussing circumcision of a future son before marriage? Certainly not something that I ever though of. Not circ'ing never would have occurred to me then anyway.

 

Even if you did discuss it before marriage, viewpoints could very well change years down the road. DH and I discussed all sorts of things before we married and we agreed on things. Eight years later I've changed a great deal and lean a lot more toward the "natural" side of things and now there is a whole lot we don't agree on anymore.

[Hwin]

We have two sons. The first time, I let him decide. The second time, even though we were both still on opposite sides of the issue, I insisted on mutual agreement (even if it meant me giving in). We did make the second decision together.

[Veritaserum]

About this, I can't possibly be the only person whose opinions on some of the big things changed over time, can I? Or who simply didn't think about certain issues before they arose? ...And how I'd feel about circumcising a son never even crossed my mind. Before I was pregnant, I just thought that was what was done, by everyone, everywhere. What did I know about it?

 

We discussed what we knew to discuss and came to agreements on everything we could, but I don't think it's always possible to hash every single issue out before agreeing to marry. Stuff comes up. People change. Even when they didn't think they would.

 

:iagree: Although for me, circumcising a son never crossed my mind because I'm not Jewish and neither is dh. I couldn't think why anyone would do it except for religion. It was off my radar completely until he said he would want to do it if our baby were a boy.

[TracyR]

If I had a little boy I would circumsize , only for the reason is with that skin there it can cause bacterial build up in little boys and cause UTI's. They have to be responsible enough as they mature to pull back the skin and clean the area because if they don't bacteria can build up and get into the urethra and cause UTI's.

Trust me after working in a nursing home and having seen older men having to have the procedure done due to chronic UTI's . I"d much rather have it done as an infant and they don't remember, then being 80yrs old and having to have it done because of chronic UTI's. Many people do not think about this when making the decision.

 

I almost wonder if it was something the Jewish people learned and it became custom. So people just relate it to a Jewish ritual. But it may have been more of a health thing. This is just one of those cases where Natural isn't always good.

Edited January 15, 2012 by TracyR

[Julie Smith]

If I had a little boy I would circumsize , only for the reason is with that skin there it can cause bacterial build up in little boys and cause UTI's. They have to be responsible enough as they mature to pull back the skin and clean the area because if they don't bacteria can build up and get into the urethra and cause UTI's.

Trust me after working in a nursing home and having seen older men having to have the procedure done due to chronic UTI's . I"d much rather have it done as an infant and they don't remember, then being 80yrs old and having to have it done because of chronic UTI's. Many people do not think about this when making the decision.

 

I almost wonder if it was something the Jewish people learned and it became custom. So people just relate it to a Jewish ritual. But it may have been more of a health thing.

 

To my knowledge the chronic UTI's in older men only happens in countries where circumcision it common. It's because the nurse staff don't know how to deal with uncircumcised men.

[melissel]

:iagree: Although for me, circumcising a son never crossed my mind because I'm not Jewish and neither is dh. I couldn't think why anyone would do it except for religion. It was off my radar completely until he said he would want to do it if our baby were a boy.

 

I had no brothers, no close male friends, no close boy babies in the family, etc. I figured, why would so many people circumsize if it wasn't necessary? It seemed too brutal to be voluntary :lol: I felt the same way about BFing--why would people do such a thing if there was this perfectly good alternative available? As you can imagine, I've learned quite a lot since then, and changed my mind on a lot (repeatedly :lol:), and NOT changed my mind on a few other things (but gotten more open-minded about others' decisions on them). But at 26, I can't exactly say I'd been around the block much, and my family is not exactly what I'd call the contemplative sort!

[Spy Car]

Circumcision is not "brutal." Performed properly (with a topical anesthetic followed by a local) it is a pain-free procedure that brings a life-time of benefits.

 

I think it is instructive that all the husbands mentioned in the thread (save one, who comes from a country where there is a strong cultural component against circumcision) support circumcision. There is good reason for this.

 

Bill