Jump to content

Menu

Thomas Jefferson Education Model AKA Leadership Education?


DragonflyAcademy
 Share

Recommended Posts

I just came across Thomas Jefferson Education method via another homeschool family looking into it. I'd never heard of it before, perhaps I live under a rock.. :blink:

 

I haven't read up on it yet, other than the blurb online from 1 site.. but I'm curious if anyone else uses this model? How does it differ from Classical Education method?

 

Could I implement it with a preschooler, nearly kindergartener, Second and Fifth grader in the house? Which of the books did you find most helpful in helping you implement it?

 

It has piqued my curiosity.. but before I go out and buy the books.. I was curious to hear what others have experienced or thought about it..

 

thanks!! :001_smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you click on the parents forum k-8 (the one you are looking at), and go to the upper right hand corner below your name, you'll find an area search this forum. Enter

Thomas Jefferson

I got a long list of threads where it was mentioned, and some all about it.

 

My impression from over the threads over the years is that is sounds great superficially, but as you get deeper it is rather unlike its namesake: rigid, humorless, politically inflexible and rather full of hubris. That is just the IMPRESSION I remember, because I never used it, nor looked into it after a few negative threads. YMMY, HTH, and all that jazz.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really enjoyed reading the book. I also heard some pretty not nice reviews of the proponents of this method. I think reading the book and tossing the ideas around in your own way won't hurt any. It's been a while since I have read the book, but I remember thinking it would be a nice way to approach school for some of my children....lots of reading of Great Books, apprenticeships, self teaching & self study....time for real work and real life experiences. I don't recall the accusations set forth about the writers...I guess you can do a search.

 

Faithe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I happen to really, really like the book. It contains a lot of information I find helpful and really it is the book that inspired me to begin to even care about history and classic literature. I also like some of the principles/guidelines in the book. The way the method is implemented in the TJEd "world" is not something I would choose. Once I started reading beyond the original book, lurking online, etc I found that the TJEd culture was something I did not care for. But I do like the book.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I happen to really, really like the book. It contains a lot of information I find helpful and really it is the book that inspired me to begin to even care about history and classic literature. I also like some of the principles/guidelines in the book. The way the method is implemented in the TJEd "world" is not something I would choose. Once I started reading beyond the original book, lurking online, etc I found that the TJEd culture was something I did not care for. But I do like the book.

 

I agree. I really liked the book. I haven't looked into anything past that (and have no plans to), but I really enjoyed the book. I plan to pull it out and read it again soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Run as far and as fast as you can to get away from that nonsense. Seriously. Run.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

Run. Run. Run away as fast as you can!

 

Oliver DeMille has done serious educational and financial damage to families that have fallen under his influence. He has claimed a doctoral degree and a law degree that were from diploma mills (and when he was busted he claimed to be unaware these were diploma mills). He also runs a "University" that is a diploma mill. TJed has nothing to do with Thomas Jefferson and everything to do with money-making.

 

Do not get fleeced.

 

Bill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read the books before we started classical homeschooling. I found some of the ideas intriguing. Like others have stated, once I started researching the culture of TJed, it was nothing I wanted to be part of.

 

The one beneficial point I got out of the books was continuing your own self-education as you teach your children.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a number of friends who use TJed. It is really big on student-motivated education. One thing that I think really makes sense about it is the focus on the parent being an example of life-long learning, and modelling personal study habits and a love of learning for their children. Up until around the age of eight, they go for unschooling, and then several years where they study what the child wants to study. Then in about the high school years, what they call the 'scholar phase', they do intensive, student-motivated Great Books study. They talk about the high school student independently studying for ten hours a day, because their early training instilled a love of learning.

 

I really wanted to like TJed, because then we would have had a ready-made community of like-minded homeschooling friends. But I just couldn't get on board with the idea that parent-directed teaching would lead to a dislike of learning. It does not match up with my personal experience. And I worried about the jump between only studying what the child wanted to learn and the intensive study of the classics. I know several teenagers that it really did work well for, but what's to say that every kid is going to develop the intense internal drive necessary to study and get themselves a great education like that?

 

That said, I know several families for whom it works very well. Their younger elementary kids seem very behind, their older elementary and younger middle school kids are very lopsided in their knowledge, and their teenagers are very self-motivated, independent, intelligent, and well-spoken.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I added tags that will help you find other threads. I believe TJEd to be damaging and agree with the advice to run away. I live in TJEd world and have not seen good things either as a user or as an observer now. Something I've seen in the past year or so is a LOT of back peddling and redefining of previously defined concepts. Like "classics" can now be people. So, likely-illiterate Joan of Arc, whom DeMille said was a historical great who studied the classics, studied her mother. Yeah, Joan of Arc's mother was a classic. ??? A Facebook friend of mine recently posted a link to DeMille's blog where he went on about how TJEd isn't unstructured and isn't unschooling. Uh.... That's what it sure looks like based on all the many other things I've read by him and his wife. The inconsistencies, the lying, and the MLM feel of the whole organization are major turn-offs.

 

Here is a summary that I posted on another thread:

 

I was heavily involved with TJEd for about four years before I came to my senses. The biggest problem with TJEd is that it doesn't work. The philosophy is hopelessly flawed and takes such an extreme, one-right-way approach that its followers (myself formerly included) give it religious-like devotion. (The comments for the blog posts below illustrate the way TJEders refuse to change their opinion even in the face of out-right falsehoods.) The premise is that Thomas Jefferson was educated in the manner advocated by TJEd proponents. He had a mentor (George Wythe) and he experienced a largely self-directed education. In fact, Thomas Jefferson received a traditional course of classical education (you know, Latin, etc.) and wasn't mentored by Wythe until he was a young adult.

 

If you are inclined to read more about TJEd, see these:

 

(my blog)

http://classicalhouseoflearning.wordpress.com/2011/06/25/what-makes-a-good-educational-philosophy/

 

(a post from another WTMer)

http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/a-thomas-jefferson-education/

 

(a homeschooling dad)

http://whyidontdotjed.blogspot.com/

 

(more on DeMille's shady educational history and claims)

http://themakingofauniversity.blogspot.com/2009/01/diploma-demille.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I added tags that will help you find other threads. I believe TJEd to be damaging and agree with the advice to run away. I live in TJEd world and have not seen good things either as a user or as an observer now. Something I've seen in the past year or so is a LOT of back peddling and redefining of previously defined concepts. Like "classics" can now be people. So, likely-illiterate Joan of Arc, whom DeMille said was a historical great who studied the classics, studied her mother. Yeah, Joan of Arc's mother was a classic. ??? A Facebook friend of mine recently posted a link to DeMille's blog where he went on about how TJEd isn't unstructured and isn't unschooling. Uh.... That's what it sure looks like based on all the many other things I've read by him and his wife. The inconsistencies, the lying, and the MLM feel of the whole organization are major turn-offs.

 

Here is a summary that I posted on another thread:

 

I was heavily involved with TJEd for about four years before I came to my senses. The biggest problem with TJEd is that it doesn't work. The philosophy is hopelessly flawed and takes such an extreme, one-right-way approach that its followers (myself formerly included) give it religious-like devotion. (The comments for the blog posts below illustrate the way TJEders refuse to change their opinion even in the face of out-right falsehoods.) The premise is that Thomas Jefferson was educated in the manner advocated by TJEd proponents. He had a mentor (George Wythe) and he experienced a largely self-directed education. In fact, Thomas Jefferson received a traditional course of classical education (you know, Latin, etc.) and wasn't mentored by Wythe until he was a young adult.

 

:iagree:We are surrounded by it here (although you may have a bit more down in your neck of the woods, Veritaserum), and it does. not. work. I have not seen one child that I could say has been successfully educated using this "method" of homeschooling. And I put method in quotes, because there is no method....just madness.

 

Not one single TJed person that I know can articulate what their children are studying....aside from "the classics". When I asked for specifics like math...I'm told that they read books about mathematicians. Um...you won't learn one single math fact reading a biography about Pythagoras. Sorry, but that doesn't cut it in my book.

 

And the children from the families I know who persist with this are woefully behind. They are for the most part, unable to read with any fluency, horrible at math, even worse at grammar, writing and spelling...the list goes on. It's truly a shame that children are the victims of this charlatan. For most of them, unfortunately...they find out too late what a scam this is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We actually know quite a bit about what Jefferson himself saw as an education as he wrote letters to a nephew covering various topics and suggesting books.

 

On education and overview:

http://www.deism.com/images/DeistLESSONTWO.pdf (this strikes me as a methods letters although he only focuses on one topic, it could be easily applied to others)

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=2223

 

There's information about his own library:

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jefflib.html

 

And a letter which gives his nephew lists of things to read:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/let31.asp (the online layout of this letter is tedious)

 

And the addendum to one of the education letter above that gives a nice list:

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_enclosure.html

 

Jefferson probably read a lot of this in Latin or original Greek. And you'll notice there are almost no works of literature in the lists (a few classical writers and Milton and Shakespeare all stuffed into one category "poetry").

 

Add to this we know that Jefferson's father wanted his children in the saddle 4 hours a day for exercise and Jefferson went to a small estate school with some of his other relatives (see this book for more).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

Run. Run. Run away as fast as you can!

 

Oliver DeMille has done serious educational and financial damage to families that have fallen under his influence. He has claimed a doctoral degree and a law degree that were from diploma mills (and when he was busted he claimed to be unaware these were diploma mills). He also runs a "University" that is a diploma mill. TJed has nothing to do with Thomas Jefferson and everything to do with money-making.

 

Do not get fleeced.

 

Bill

 

Lol.....my dh said the same exact thing to me about Bill Gothard and Basic Life Principles....RUN!!!!! Fast!

 

I did.

Faithe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a non-LDS person who has read several of the TJED books and who even went to the first "seminar". My personal take is that Oliver DeMille is a very sincere person who has a passion for mentoring/classics and that, like all people who are very passionate about a subject, sometimes takes it a little too far.

 

I find it a little ironic that people criticize him for having degrees from a non-credentialed university when these same people are homeschooling...I mean, you either believe that one must have credentialed teachers and schools for an education to be valid, or you don't. Given the cr*p that I've seen passing for an education at some of the local universities, I don't blame DeMille for seeking the education he desired elsewhere.

 

The woman who taught the TJED seminar actually used boxed curriculum in her home with her kids, so I think implementation of the TJED principles is somewhat open to interpretation, although I agree that a lot of TJED parents follow the 'unschooling' method.

 

I eventually left it because the lack of info on specifics of how to implement TJED and, also, as much as Oliver & the other leaders may want to take it beyond the LDS community, it really is an LDS thing. I don't agree that he is using it as a recruitment tool for LDS - I never ran into that at all. I think you can take elements from TJED into a WTM-homeschool, but they are fundamentally incompatible in a number of areas, so you kind of have to choose which to follow.

 

Bottom line:As others have said, I think it is worth reading the books (the original TJED, plus maybe Leadership Education) if they seem interesting to you and pulling from them what is worth keeping.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I added tags that will help you find other threads. I believe TJEd to be damaging and agree with the advice to run away. I live in TJEd world and have not seen good things either as a user or as an observer now. Something I've seen in the past year or so is a LOT of back peddling and redefining of previously defined concepts. Like "classics" can now be people. So, likely-illiterate Joan of Arc, whom DeMille said was a historical great who studied the classics, studied her mother. Yeah, Joan of Arc's mother was a classic. ??? A Facebook friend of mine recently posted a link to DeMille's blog where he went on about how TJEd isn't unstructured and isn't unschooling. Uh.... That's what it sure looks like based on all the many other things I've read by him and his wife. The inconsistencies, the lying, and the MLM feel of the whole organization are major turn-offs.

 

Here is a summary that I posted on another thread:

 

I was heavily involved with TJEd for about four years before I came to my senses. The biggest problem with TJEd is that it doesn't work. The philosophy is hopelessly flawed and takes such an extreme, one-right-way approach that its followers (myself formerly included) give it religious-like devotion. (The comments for the blog posts below illustrate the way TJEders refuse to change their opinion even in the face of out-right falsehoods.) The premise is that Thomas Jefferson was educated in the manner advocated by TJEd proponents. He had a mentor (George Wythe) and he experienced a largely self-directed education. In fact, Thomas Jefferson received a traditional course of classical education (you know, Latin, etc.) and wasn't mentored by Wythe until he was a young adult.

 

Having read the books and some other research I have to agree. I don't think the method lives up to what is promised by the name. The books have a few good take-away ideas. But not enough in my opinion to call it a method of education. And certainly not classical education.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have not seen one child that I could say has been successfully educated using this "method" of homeschooling . . .

 

When I asked for specifics like math...I'm told that they read books about mathematicians. Um...you won't learn one single math fact reading a biography about Pythagoras. Sorry, but that doesn't cut it in my book.

 

Just wanted to say, while I'm not an advocate of the method myself, I do know several families who used it and whose older children have gone on to well-respected universities and done well there. One good friend of mine has a son who is a sophomore in engineering at BYU. The children of these families do learn math; they just wait to start teaching it until the kids are old enough to reason out, 'Well, I want a good job when I grow up, so I want to go to college. . .' and then the parent shows them what is required to get there, and help the kids lay out a personal plan to reach their goals. So while these kids start out late and are very behind for a time, they do learn the math, along with reading 'math classics'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a non-LDS person who has read several of the TJED books and who even went to the first "seminar". My personal take is that Oliver DeMille is a very sincere person who has a passion for mentoring/classics and that, like all people who are very passionate about a subject, sometimes takes it a little too far.

 

I find it a little ironic that people criticize him for having degrees from a non-credentialed university when these same people are homeschooling...I mean, you either believe that one must have credentialed teachers and schools for an education to be valid, or you don't. Given the cr*p that I've seen passing for an education at some of the local universities, I don't blame DeMille for seeking the education he desired elsewhere.

 

The woman who taught the TJED seminar actually used boxed curriculum in her home with her kids, so I think implementation of the TJED principles is somewhat open to interpretation, although I agree that a lot of TJED parents follow the 'unschooling' method.

 

I eventually left it because the lack of info on specifics of how to implement TJED and, also, as much as Oliver & the other leaders may want to take it beyond the LDS community, it really is an LDS thing. I don't agree that he is using it as a recruitment tool for LDS - I never ran into that at all. I think you can take elements from TJED into a WTM-homeschool, but they are fundamentally incompatible in a number of areas, so you kind of have to choose which to follow.

 

Bottom line:As others have said, I think it is worth reading the books (the original TJED, plus maybe Leadership Education) if they seem interesting to you and pulling from them what is worth keeping.

 

I actually find it more ironic that Oliver DeMille claims a phony doctorate while promoting his unaccredited college and entrepreneurship/non-college career paths. If a "conveyor belt" college degree isn't worthwhile, why claim to be Dr. DeMille?

 

There just isn't enough substance for TJEd to be worth much, if anything. The DeMilles and other supporters are nice enough people, but the philosophy is so flawed that I see it doing more harm than good overall. There are hundreds of TJEd families where I am. Very few manage to create an effective learning environment. So many feel like failures and give up or they buy more TJEd products and services with the hopes that they will FINALLY have what they need. That was me. I wasted so much time and money on something that could never possibly produce the results it claims. $30 and one book later, The Well-Trained Mind taught me how to produce the education that TJEd failed to deliver.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just wanted to say, while I'm not an advocate of the method myself, I do know several families who used it and whose older children have gone on to well-respected universities and done well there. One good friend of mine has a son who is a sophomore in engineering at BYU. The children of these families do learn math; they just wait to start teaching it until the kids are old enough to reason out, 'Well, I want a good job when I grow up, so I want to go to college. . .' and then the parent shows them what is required to get there, and help the kids lay out a personal plan to reach their goals. So while these kids start out late and are very behind for a time, they do learn the math, along with reading 'math classics'.

 

I think this points to the heart of the problem for me. I consider the first part bolded in black to be good parenting not a system of education. I also don't consider this to be exclusive to homeschooling. Good parents help their children in this fashion no matter how they are being educated. I consider the second part (in blue) to be a problem--eventually a child reaches a point where they just can't catch up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wasted so much time and money on something that could never possibly produce the results it claims. $30 and one book later, The Well-Trained Mind taught me how to produce the education that TJEd failed to deliver.

 

The same thing happened to me. I tried homeschooling according to TJEd and FAILED. It wasn't until I found TWTM that I decided to go for it again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...