How I, an atheist, try to determine right and wrong

[J-rap]

Seems to me that it's a lose-lose situation responding to this thread if you're a Christian.

I am a Christian, and I liked what you had to say. I love conversations like this. I struggle with many of the same issues, believe me. I'd rather hang out with kind, thinking atheists or agnostics rather than Christians who haven't thought through their faith, are opinionated and judgmental, and just follow the crowd.

I feel that atheists who are kind and faithful, and listen thoughtfully to their own internal wisdom are more solid and pleasant to be around than Christians who latch on to whatever the current Christian trends are and think they have all the answers.

But here's the rub.

I am one of those people who believe that God put that internal wisdom within each individual in the first place, whether or not you believe it comes from God or not. How could I NOT believe this, if I have chosen to be a Christian?

So, even though it sounds like I start out on your side, in your mind that last statement of mine labels me as a close-minded person who thinks she has all the answers (even though I KNOW I don't), because bottom line is I'm saying atheists get their morals from God afterall.

So in the end, I'm not sure how to respond.

Just so you know, I'm really am saying this in a more light-hearted way...

[Little Nyssa]

OP said Christians "Pray, and do the best they can."

 

I don't know about anyone else, but that's what I do, and that satisfies me.

 

One objection I would make to OP's original post is that she doesn't take into account that Christianity has reinterpreted the OT; that is Christianity's internal logic.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[Ipsey]

Seems to me that it's a lose-lose situation responding to this thread if you're a Christian.

I am a Christian, and I liked what you had to say. I love conversations like this. I struggle with many of the same issues, believe me. I'd rather hang out with kind, thinking atheists or agnostics rather than Christians who haven't thought through their faith, are opinionated and judgmental, and just follow the crowd.

I feel that atheists who are kind and faithful, and listen thoughtfully to their own internal wisdom are more solid and pleasant to be around than Christians who latch on to whatever the current Christian trends are and think they have all the answers.

But here's the rub.

I am one of those people who believe that God put that internal wisdom within each individual in the first place, whether or not you believe it comes from God or not. How could I NOT believe this, if I have chosen to be a Christian?

So, even though it sounds like I start out on your side, in your mind that last statement of mine labels me as a close-minded person who thinks she has all the answers (even though I KNOW I don't), because bottom line is I'm saying atheists get their morals from God afterall.

So in the end, I'm not sure how to respond.

Just so you know, I'm really am saying this in a more light-hearted way...

 

I understand what you're saying, but what inspired my post was another religious person's statements about non-believers. You didn't start a thread trying to play Devil's Advocate and saying that. . .well, yanno, non-believers have no way to say that child rape is wrong if they don't have a specific god-given code of morals. Yanno, those non-religious, how could they possibly say child-rape is wrong?! Cause they don't have my god, how would they know?

 

This is the difference between you believing your god created me and the morals of the world, and intentionally baiting and maligning people. The poster gave a forced choice.

 

A. Either you say that child-rape is ok because there is no perfect morality.

Evolution=we're all animals=rape, murder, whatever.

 

or

 

B. You say that child rape is wrong and that's because you have my god in you.

 

 

People looked at A because they couldn't select B, and become angry about it, because that's the crap that non-religious often get.

 

However, another option is C. We have developed morality over a course of evolutionary progress that selects for various traits that support community, compassion, care, and the benefit of the species, which includes our self-awareness and protection of our weaker individuals. Evolution helped us to become moral --- Unfortunately, the OP had already salted that ground by saying that evolution = baddy, bad, bad. That left the non-believer no where to go, and no answer to give other than to be affronted and frustrated.

 

That you believe my conscience comes from your god. All well and good. We can agree to disagree. When you start spouting ugly straw-men (that serve to marginalize, demonize, and generally screw-over non-believers more than we already are) we're going to have a problem. :)

Edited November 11, 2011 by Ipsey

[Joanne]

It matters to me because I get sick and tired of people telling me I either have no morals or that if I'm logical I'll accept that I got my morality from their god. I'm in a society where most people think I'm a bad person because I don't believe in their god. I was told by several of my students on Wed (who don't know I'm not religious), that I can't really be a good American because I don't believe in a god.

 

.

 

This won't help you. ;) But it isn't much better if you "believe." For the types you are talking to, if you don't believe in the way they do, you are just as ****ed. Really.

 

I can post all day long (and have ;)) about how I believe to the bottom of my soul in God. But I believe the Bible is (largely) myth. It holds truth just like the *other* creation and why do people do that stories over the course of times do. It's poetic language, written down after years of oral tradition, meant to offer instruction and information and history.

 

You don't "believe", if you don't *by God* believe Jonah was eaten and thrown up by a whale. You don't "believe" unless you believe in the flood, and Adam and Eve.

 

Move over, atheist, I'm on the same lost bench.

 

The irony is that most philosophical theories (religious or otherwise) share more principals than not.

[LibraryLover]

Really interesting thread. Thanks, Ipsey. :)

[Mom-ninja.]

I understand what you're saying, but what inspired my post was another religious person's statements about non-believers. You didn't start a thread trying to play Devil's Advocate and saying that. . .well, yanno, non-believers have no way to say that child rape is wrong if they don't have a specific god-given code of morals. Yanno, those non-religious, how could they possibly say child-rape is wrong?! Cause they don't have my god, how would they know?

 

This is the difference between you believing your god created me and the morals of the world, and intentionally baiting and maligning people. The poster gave a forced choice.

 

A. Either you say that child-rape is ok because there is no perfect morality.

Evolution=we're all animals=rape, murder, whatever.

 

or

 

B. You say that child rape is wrong and that's because you have my god in you.

 

 

People looked at A because they couldn't select B, and become angry about it, because that's the crap that non-religious often get.

 

 

 

Someone said that?! Good grief. I'm glad I didn't read that thread.

 

Great book.

[twoforjoy]

But here's the rub.

I am one of those people who believe that God put that internal wisdom within each individual in the first place, whether or not you believe it comes from God or not.

 

That's sort of how I feel. For me, God is love. God is that small voice that speaks to us about what's right, that urging toward the good that tugs at us. That's what I believe.

 

Since I believe that, I believe that's how God works in everybody's life. Believe or not, God is always there, luring you towards the good (or at least the better).

 

At the same time, though, everybody can accept or reject that urge towards the good. And I see absolutely no evidence that Christians reject it at a higher rate or atheists accept it at a lower rate. Because in the end we're still making choices, and every atheist I've known has been just as good if not better at making moral choices than the religious people I've known. Clearly religious belief is not necessary to make moral decisions.

 

Of course, I'm the kind of Christian who isn't really a Christian according to the same people who think atheists can't have morals.

[Ipsey]

This won't help you. ;) But it isn't much better if you "believe." For the types you are talking to, if you don't believe in the way they do, you are just as ****ed. Really.

 

I can post all day long (and have ;)) about how I believe to the bottom of my soul in God. But I believe the Bible is (largely) myth. It holds truth just like the *other* creation and why do people do that stories over the course of times do. It's poetic language, written down after years of oral tradition, meant to offer instruction and information and history.

 

You don't "believe", if you don't *by God* believe Jonah was eaten and thrown up by a whale. You don't "believe" unless you believe in the flood, and Adam and Eve.

 

Move over, atheist, I'm on the same lost bench.

 

The irony is that most philosophical theories (religious or otherwise) share more principals than not.

 

Oh, I'm very familiar with the "believe this, or be ****ed" school. I was one of those for years. And a missionary for 5 of them. You don't have to convince me :)

 

And yet, "atheist" is a seriously bad thing to be, even worse than "liberal religious person" in terms of public opinion and potential for public office in the US. :tongue_smilie:

 

PS. I've been following you and your husband for a while, and I hope things are getting better, and will continue to do so!

[Haiku]

I'm in a society where most people think I'm a bad person because I don't believe in their god.

 

Me, too, sista! The number of times people have told me I must be amoral since I don't believe in a god is only slightly less staggering than the hubris and utter ignorance of the people who would say such a thing.

 

Tara

[J-rap]

Okay. Got it. And fyi, I don't believe that a blend of B and C is out of the question.:)

Wow, Ipsey -- you were a missionary?

[Bluegoat]

Huh?

 

I'm afraid I don't understand.

 

When a religious person tells me, "I do this because I believe in God," I believe them.

 

As to the rest, I think they're wrong, sure I don't think there are gods. But I'm not trying to rub their face in it. I'm also not in a position to politically or socially hurt them, either.

 

Here's the rub. Religious people are a strong majority of the US population. They have the larger numbers, and they have the largest voice. This isn't going to change any time soon.

 

What they say about atheists and atheism and other non-religious is that which is heard the loudest and most often, and with ugly results for non-believers.

 

Examples?

 

http://www1.umn.edu/news/news-releases/2006/UR_RELEASE_MIG_2816.html

 

http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/5125.html

 

My high school students the other day (7 who talked about the subject) explained how "dumb" it was that there should be atheists is American seeing as how "In God we trust" is on our money and "one nation, under God" is in the pledge of Allegiance. Our society, for a large part, demeans non-believers. And there are all sorts who like to look to our government (and our money!) to do so.

 

Again, people (religious in this case) can say anything they darn well want, but when they're in a position of privilege, and can't even see it because they're swimming in it, sometimes I want to say "HEY! I'M HERE, I EXIST! CAN ANYONE HEAR ME! IS ANYONE WILLING TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND?! AT ALL?" Here's your opportunity!

 

But what do you think morality is? Is it real in any sense? If we make a moral judgement, is it based on anything more than imagination?

 

I understand that you accept that a religious person believes his moral direction comes from God. But you don't believe that's actually true, since you don't think that God exists. So where do you think his moral ideas really come from? The same place yours do? Somewhere else?

 

Morality, if it is real, has some kind of objective basis, however we get hold of that - it is intertwined with the nature of reality in some way. I as a Christian think that it has its source in the Divine Nature, just like the laws of physics, or mathematics, or the material world, or the immaterial created world. All of these things have their reality because of God. So from my POV, an atheist percieves the physical world, or logic, or whatever, because they come from God. Similarly, good and evil.

 

Atheists see morality as having a foundation in something else, or as having no foundation. But if they think it is real, they think it is part of reality, it is part of the world we live in apart from whatever any individual decides. Atheist moral philosophers have a variety of different ideas about this. And that thing is the source of morality for everyone, even if those people ascribe that source to something else.

 

THat is what Christians are saying when they say even atheists get their morality from God. They believe God is the objective underpinning of all reality, whether people realize it or not, and so the origin of all moral truth.

 

And that is no different than what atheists who believe in moral truth think, minus God.

 

Is it frustrating when people are rude and stupid? Sure, but there are lots of places, like where I live, that are more likely to treat Christians the way you are complaining about.

[Jennifer3141]

Gotcha ;)

 

Please don't ever get mad at Scarlett for sarcasm-ing me back. I like to try to push her into the dark side a little and she likes to make me think deep thoughts. We work but we don't know why. :D

[elfgivas]

Love your really thoughtful post.

 

I agree morality is subjective. My morality comes from my parents, my culture, from my own heart and mind. Speaking from personal experience, I know my moral values have evolved over a period of time. When I was religious I had a rigid set of beliefs, inflexible rules about right and wrong and judgemental attitudes about other people.

 

Unshackling myself from these beliefs has been quite an eye-opening experience, but truly worth it.

 

sam harris has some fascinating things to say about how not subjective morality can actually be....

 

he comes down on the side of asking if it leads people to "thrive". he's one the great minds of our time and has made me think. a lot.

 

there are many of his talks on line....

 

ann

[Ipsey]

Okay. Got it. And fyi, I don't believe that a blend of B and C is out of the question.:)

Wow, Ipsey -- you were a missionary?

 

Yep.

 

http://navigators.org/us/

 

:)

[Ipsey]

Someone said that?! Good grief. I'm glad I didn't read that thread.

 

Great book.

 

This does look good!

[Ipsey]

But what do you think morality is? Is it real in any sense? If we make a moral judgement, is it based on anything more than imagination?

 

I understand that you accept that a religious person believes his moral direction comes from God. But you don't believe that's actually true, since you don't think that God exists. So where do you think his moral ideas really come from? The same place yours do? Somewhere else?

 

Morality, if it is real, has some kind of objective basis, however we get hold of that - it is intertwined with the nature of reality in some way. I as a Christian think that it has its source in the Divine Nature, just like the laws of physics, or mathematics, or the material world, or the immaterial created world. All of these things have their reality because of God. So from my POV, an atheist percieves the physical world, or logic, or whatever, because they come from God. Similarly, good and evil.

 

Atheists see morality as having a foundation in something else, or as having no foundation. But if they think it is real, they think it is part of reality, it is part of the world we live in apart from whatever any individual decides. Atheist moral philosophers have a variety of different ideas about this. And that thing is the source of morality for everyone, even if those people ascribe that source to something else.

 

THat is what Christians are saying when they say even atheists get their morality from God. They believe God is the objective underpinning of all reality, whether people realize it or not, and so the origin of all moral truth.

 

And that is no different than what atheists who believe in moral truth think, minus God.

 

Is it frustrating when people are rude and stupid? Sure, but there are lots of places, like where I live, that are more likely to treat Christians the way you are complaining about.

 

Again, religious people can think anything they want philosophically. People can believe in women turned to salt or a man flying to heaven on a horse, or that people came from another planet and were dropped in a volcano. There are plenty of philosophical angles I can't begin to understand. People are completely within their rights to think whatever they want.

 

When philosophy or religion is used to bash someone over the head, create ugly straw men, and malign people who don't believe in salt-women, flying horses, or what have you, and the non-believers become the most distrusted group in our country, then I tend to get my hackles up. (Did you follow my previous links, BTW? Can you see what I'm saying? I'm talking about a system-wide problem and bigotry against atheists)

 

I really don't care that Christians think everyone gets morality from God. . .cause without God there'd be no anything. . .etc. etc. If they hold that view, fine. It's what people do with it.

 

What I care about is what religion does to people. Both religious and non-religious. And I'm talking, specifically, about non-religious people now.

[justamouse]

A. Either you say that child-rape is ok because there is no perfect morality.

Evolution=we're all animals=rape, murder, whatever.

 

or

 

B. You say that child rape is wrong and that's because you have my god in you.

 

People looked at A because they couldn't select B, and become angry about it, because that's the crap that non-religious often get.

Ugh, I know. This I know and I HATE it. It's not only frustrating for you, but all of us Christians who don't believe the way they do.

 

However, another option is C. We have developed morality over a course of evolutionary progress that selects for various traits that support community, compassion, care, and the benefit of the species, which includes our self-awareness and protection of our weaker individuals. Evolution helped us to become moral --- Unfortunately, the OP had already salted that ground by saying that evolution = baddy, bad, bad. That left the non-believer no where to go, and no answer to give other than to be affronted and frustrated.

 

I don't disagree that evolution has helped us become more moral.

 

That you believe my conscience comes from your god. All well and good. We can agree to disagree. When you start spouting ugly straw-men (that serve to marginalize, demonize, and generally screw-over non-believers more than we already are) we're going to have a problem. :)

 

But since I believe that evolution itself is God's work...I come to that agree to disagree point.

 

That's sort of how I feel. For me, God is love. God is that small voice that speaks to us about what's right, that urging toward the good that tugs at us. That's what I believe.

 

Since I believe that, I believe that's how God works in everybody's life. Believe or not, God is always there, luring you towards the good (or at least the better).

 

At the same time, though, everybody can accept or reject that urge towards the good. And I see absolutely no evidence that Christians reject it at a higher rate or atheists accept it at a lower rate. Because in the end we're still making choices, and every atheist I've known has been just as good if not better at making moral choices than the religious people I've known. Clearly religious belief is not necessary to make moral decisions.

 

Of course, I'm the kind of Christian who isn't really a Christian according to the same people who think atheists can't have morals.

 

:iagree:

[Mrs Twain]

Ipsey, I haven't read all of the posts, but I don't think that you are an atheist. If you were really a true atheist, then there would be no such thing as "good" or "bad/evil.". In order for there to be such a thing as good and bad, there needs to be an entity outside of the universe which has standards of what is right and what is wrong. Otherwise good and bad makes no sense.

 

I think you actually do believe in God after reading your initial post. It sounds like you have been offended by something in the Bible or by something people who claimed to be Christians said or did. Perhaps you would enjoy reading C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. It is an excellent, intellectual read for people who are pondering the kinds of issues of which you write.

[leeannpal]

I'm a Christian who believe that morality has very little to do with any religion. I have friends of several faiths that I consider to be wonderful, moral people. I've also known people who attend church that aresadly lacking in the morals area. For me, as a Christian, I do believe in the ideas of sin and grace and the need of a savior. I do not, in any way think that makes me morally superior to anyone. Pride is a definite sin that I try to stay away from!

[Ipsey]

But since I believe that evolution itself is God's work...I come to that agree to disagree point.

 

Sure! Quite reasonable. And disagreement isn't necessarily bad. It helps us to learn, as individuals and a society :)

 

It just depends on how it's used.

[Elizabeth in WA]

Ipsey, I haven't read all of the posts, but I don't think that you are an atheist. If you were really a true atheist, then there would be no such thing as "good" or "bad/evil.". In order for there to be such a thing as good and bad, there needs to be an entity outside of the universe which has standards of what is right and what is wrong. Otherwise good and bad makes no sense.

 

I think you actually do believe in God after reading your initial post. It sounds like you have been offended by something in the Bible or by something people who claimed to be Christians said or did. Perhaps you would enjoy reading C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. It is an excellent, intellectual read for people who are pondering the kinds of issues of which you write.

 

<facepalm> This is exactly the kind of statement being discussed as offensive.

[leeannpal]

Seems to me that it's a lose-lose situation responding to this thread if you're a Christian.

I am a Christian, and I liked what you had to say. I love conversations like this. I struggle with many of the same issues, believe me. I'd rather hang out with kind, thinking atheists or agnostics rather than Christians who haven't thought through their faith, are opinionated and judgmental, and just follow the crowd.

I feel that atheists who are kind and faithful, and listen thoughtfully to their own internal wisdom are more solid and pleasant to be around than Christians who latch on to whatever the current Christian trends are and think they have all the answers.

But here's the rub.

I am one of those people who believe that God put that internal wisdom within each individual in the first place, whether or not you believe it comes from God or not. How could I NOT believe this, if I have chosen to be a Christian?

So, even though it sounds like I start out on your side, in your mind that last statement of mine labels me as a close-minded person who thinks she has all the answers (even though I KNOW I don't), because bottom line is I'm saying atheists get their morals from God afterall.

So in the end, I'm not sure how to respond.

Just so you know, I'm really am saying this in a more light-hearted way...

:iagree:I think we all have the tendency to believe that our experiences are universal. Ipsey has had people say mean things to her because she is an atheist. As a Christian, I've had people tell me that only dumb people believe in a god, my belief in god is a crutch because I am not a strong enough person to make it on my own, and I've also been told told that I must be indoctrinating my child. Oh,and then there is the whole spaghetti monster thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster.

 

For the record, I think making fun of anyone's beliefs or lack thereof of the lowest form of "humor" out there.

Edited November 11, 2011 by leeannpal

[silliness7]

Again, religious people can think anything they want philosophically. People can believe in women turned to salt or a man flying to heaven on a horse, or that people came from another planet and were dropped in a volcano. There are plenty of philosophical angles I can't begin to understand. People are completely within their rights to think whatever they want.

 

When philosophy or religion is used to bash someone over the head, create ugly straw men, and malign people who don't believe in salt-women, flying horses, or what have you, and the non-believers become the most distrusted group in our country, then I tend to get my hackles up. (Did you follow my previous links, BTW? Can you see what I'm saying? I'm talking about a system-wide problem and bigotry against atheists)

 

I really don't care that Christians think everyone gets morality from God. . .cause without God there'd be no anything. . .etc. etc. If they hold that view, fine. It's what people do with it.

 

What I care about is what religion does to people. Both religious and non-religious. And I'm talking, specifically, about non-religious people now.

 

I don't understand. I thought the uproar was over this very thing Christians think. So the uproar is about bigotry? I haven't really seen that in this thread or the other. Is it bigoted saying the bolded out loud? Is it O.K. to believe the bolded but not say it out loud or wonder it out loud and ask questions about it? Totally confused. :confused:

[LidiyaDawn]

Ipsey, I haven't read all of the posts, but I don't think that you are an atheist. If you were really a true atheist, then there would be no such thing as "good" or "bad/evil.". In order for there to be such a thing as good and bad, there needs to be an entity outside of the universe which has standards of what is right and what is wrong. Otherwise good and bad makes no sense.

 

I think you actually do believe in God after reading your initial post. It sounds like you have been offended by something in the Bible or by something people who claimed to be Christians said or did. Perhaps you would enjoy reading C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. It is an excellent, intellectual read for people who are pondering the kinds of issues of which you write.

 

[Perry]

Ipsey, I haven't read all of the posts, but I don't think that you are an atheist. If you were really a true atheist, then there would be no such thing as "good" or "bad/evil.". In order for there to be such a thing as good and bad, there needs to be an entity outside of the universe which has standards of what is right and what is wrong. Otherwise good and bad makes no sense.

[Guest Katia]

Ipsey,

 

Thank you for this thoughtful discussion. Once again, the Hive has opened my eyes and mind to a different way to see and view people, and to see how others may 'hear' what I think and say. It will make a difference in how I speak and relate to others, as I never want to demean anyone. It seems that often we do, even when we don't realize that we are doing it. Discussions like this are invaluable to those who listen. Thank you!

[elizabeth]

How I make decisions about right and wrong?

 

(This may be a mistake, but I'm trying to give some food for thought and figure out my own take here.)

 

I try to determine what does the most good. (Heh, and philosophers have debated for thousands of years what that means. I have no idea, but I do the best I can).

 

I don’t always know what does the most good. Sometimes, I don’t always know what good is. Is good giving money to the homeless man? Should I tell him to wait instead while I get him food? What if I have children in the car waiting on me. What if one of my children is sick with a fever, and this man is asking me for a sandwich. Should I go into the store and buy him a sandwich, while my child with a fever waits in the car? Should I just give him some money instead—he could be fed, or he could just buy something elicit with it. Should I ignore him because he might injure me?

 

Good is feeding the hungry and caring for the sick. Good is finding a way to help them do this for themselves. It’s evolution that has brought me to this. We have evolved in such a way as to form communities. As we commune and help one another, our species does better; our offspring do better. I don’t think of it that way in practice, I don’t think “I’m going to care for my child because it’s a biological imperative.†I help my children because I love them. Part of this comes from evolution/nature, whatever you want to call it. I love my children. Most parents do love their children. It’s nature. And by nature, I mean our biology. It inspires my passionate love for my children. Many animals love their offspring. Just because love and affection is partly biological does not mean is “less†than some sort of God-ordained programming.

 

Again, I don’t always know what is the right thing. Sometimes there’s more than one right thing, but each has little areas of pain or potential harm.

 

I don’t think Christians (or any other religious group) can always determine easily what is the right thing either, even when they have the Bible right in front of them; two Christians can still struggle to determine the right action in a circumstance. What do they do then? Pray, and do the best they can. Try to inflict the least pain and do the most good. Mostly, good is "Doing what God wants." And that's as clear as mud too.

 

 

Here’s something to ask yourself. In Saudi Arabia two teenaged girls were cuffed and dropped into pools and drowned because they had pre-marital sex. It was viewed as an execution. Something their God required. Do you think such a thing is wrong? Do you think a good God would insist on such a punishment for pre-marital sex?

 

No?

 

If not, where do you get your morality? The Biblical God mandated the same thing. A woman was to be stoned if not a virgin on her wedding night. Not to mention stoning rebellious children, and genocide and murder of everyone (fetuses and children included) in an entire city. God made this rule. According to religious people. These were good rules. This is goodness!

 

Of course, they must grapple with how this could be. They no longer practice or believe this, for the most part, but I think you'll find few people who think such rules are good "today". Even though they made their God very happy once upon a time. In Uganda, some Christians supported the execution of gays (only a few years ago), but some didn't. 3000 years ago, their God would have been all for it. Too bad He didn't change His mind sooner.

 

My point is, even from the holy books, folks struggle with right and wrong. Sometimes what they know to be right (not slaughtering children) is different from what their holy text says. Then, they are faced with a struggle as well. Most Christians will say "murdering babies is wrong". Sometimes their decision about right and wrong differs from their text.

 

If so, how have they made their decision?

 

Same way non-religious people do.

 

Not through the influence of demons, no :)

 

They try to know what will help the most and hurt the least.

 

Religious people just have the extra variable of a holy book or deity thrown into the mix, which can mess that up entirely. (see above examples)

 

Beyond that, you'll have to talk with philosophers.

 

This philosopher thinks you can talk philosophy with the best of them. Much love to you for sharing some challenging questions that all persons of goodwill should ponder.

[elizabeth]

 

:lol::iagree: Just when I think that things could not get any worse...

[Barb_]

Ipsey, I haven't read all of the posts, but I don't think that you are an atheist. If you were really a true atheist, then there would be no such thing as "good" or "bad/evil.". In order for there to be such a thing as good and bad, there needs to be an entity outside of the universe which has standards of what is right and what is wrong. Otherwise good and bad makes no sense.

 

I think you actually do believe in God after reading your initial post. It sounds like you have been offended by something in the Bible or by something people who claimed to be Christians said or did. Perhaps you would enjoy reading C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. It is an excellent, intellectual read for people who are pondering the kinds of issues of which you write.

 

Good Lord A'mighty.

[Ipsey]

 

 

This makes me so happy! :) HAHAHAHAHA!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

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(swiped from the math thread earlier. I think it looks like Picard)

[Desert Rat]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-10-28/penn-jillette-ten-commandments/50978982/1

 

Penn Jillette (from Penn and Teller fame) was challenged by Glen Beck to come up with an atheist's Ten Commandments. I like what Penn has to say. He's loud and brash and opinionated.

 

My dad told me once that I could never raise moral children outside of religion. I've spent the last 11 years proving him wrong. He admitted to me last year that I've done a good job, that my kids know right from wrong, and that he was wrong in his assumptions. It was a good feeling.

[Ipsey]

I don't understand. I thought the uproar was over this very thing Christians think. So the uproar is about bigotry? I haven't really seen that in this thread or the other. Is it bigoted saying the bolded out loud? Is it O.K. to believe the bolded but not say it out loud or wonder it out loud and ask questions about it? Totally confused. :confused:

 

Uproar? I'm sorry? Was there an uproar somewhere? I thought I had written a very nice explanation as to how a non-religious person determined their morality. I'll hide under a pillow the next time I try such a thing, to try to be less uproarious about it.

 

I'm going to try to explain it one more time, and then I'm going to have to give up, ok? I'm really sorry if I can't make this any clearer.

 

Someone in another thread was ignorant, and in her ignorance was saying very hurtful, damaging things about non-religious people. Or, she was being malicious.

 

I tried to answer a specific question she had, namely, where non-religious people got their morals.

 

She said that non-religious people might just as well believe in child rape if they didn't believe in God. She made very, very ugly straw men arguments, whether from ignorance, or that she was making a very ham-handed gesture to lead people to her deity (which I think was probably the case).

 

She was saying things which contribute to the fact that atheists in America are the most feared and distrusted minority in the US (Did ANYONE read the links I put up), and they were the least likely to be elected into office.

 

I'm ok with disagreeing about beliefs, even with talking about them. Do you see. It's ok! Several people have come on here to tell me that they believe my morality comes from their god. There's been no uproar in response. OK?

 

THE PROBLEM COMES WHEN PEOPLE COME IN AND SAY MY MORALITY COMES FROM THEIR GOD, AND THAT I MIGHT AS WELL BE A CHILD RAPIST, OR SUPPORT CHILD RAPISTS IF I DON'T RECOGNIZE THAT.

 

I don't think you have any idea how often I hear that. "Why don't you just go kill people if you don't believe in God. You can't be good without God!"

 

People in this thread haven't done that. So, I haven't had any issues, in particular.

 

Can I make an example for you?

 

I can say, "I don't think there are any gods. I think Christians are wrong about there being a god." That's ok, right? Now, what if I said, "Christians would all just be a bunch of rapists and murderers if not for their god."

 

Can you understand the difference between those two?

 

PLUS, what if this was already a country where Christians were a minority of 13 percent, the most distrusted in the US. What if Christians had no chance in hell of becoming president. What if there weren't a half a million churches in the US?

 

Would you be frustrated. Would you want to stand up for yourself?

 

The woman in the other thread was not merely asking questions. She was contributing, I think willfully, to the degradation and ugliness toward skeptics and the non-religious, who are already in a far less influential position.

 

You are being dismissive, or not understanding this at all.

 

I hope I've clarified this a bit.

 

I don't think I can help explain this any more for you.

[Virg]

Ipsey, thank you for sharing. It's because of this board, that my understanding of other people has been broadened :)

 

:iagree::iagree: I am so glad that I have the privilege of understanding people more. This board has opened my eyes to the reason behind many ideas and philosophies I had only heard of in passing before.

[Ipsey]

This philosopher thinks you can talk philosophy with the best of them. Much love to you for sharing some challenging questions that all persons of goodwill should ponder.

 

Why, thank you. I feel sort of out of my depth sometimes. Most of my previous training in talking about morality, and worldview was based on Evangelical Christianity, so. . . trying to break out of that has been interesting/challenging :)

[Jennifer3141]

Now that's interesting.

 

Sometimes you try like crazy NOT to like someone in PMs and it just doesn't work. I love Scarlett. I'd probably tune her out when she tried to convert me but she'd roll her eyes right back at me when I went on an atheist rant.

 

And the pictures of Picard and Riker make me want to check out the 2012 Las Vegas conference again. Darn you all!!! :D

Edited November 12, 2011 by Jennifer3141

[Ipsey]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-10-28/penn-jillette-ten-commandments/50978982/1

 

Penn Jillette (from Penn and Teller fame) was challenged by Glen Beck to come up with an atheist's Ten Commandments. I like what Penn has to say. He's loud and brash and opinionated.

 

My dad told me once that I could never raise moral children outside of religion. I've spent the last 11 years proving him wrong. He admitted to me last year that I've done a good job, that my kids know right from wrong, and that he was wrong in his assumptions. It was a good feeling.

 

Good for you!

One of the big reasons I was so afraid of not raising my children in religion, even when I no longer believed, was fear that they wouldn't have morals. I just had to look at my younger brother, who has never been a Christian, and is one of the best people I've ever known, to help me have the courage to raise my children without deities.

 

I'm glad you've had such success. Meeting more non-religious people has really helped me to have less fear. Hearing this is wonderfully encouraging.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

PS. I read those by Jillette. I think they're great. I always thought God should have mentioned something about "Thou Shalt Not Rape" in the top 10 but, yanno, that's just my godlessness showing through :)

[justamouse]

Ipsey, I haven't read all of the posts, but I don't think that you are an atheist. If you were really a true atheist, then there would be no such thing as "good" or "bad/evil.". In order for there to be such a thing as good and bad, there needs to be an entity outside of the universe which has standards of what is right and what is wrong. Otherwise good and bad makes no sense.

 

I think you actually do believe in God after reading your initial post. It sounds like you have been offended by something in the Bible or by something people who claimed to be Christians said or did. Perhaps you would enjoy reading C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. It is an excellent, intellectual read for people who are pondering the kinds of issues of which you write.

 

[Jennifer3141]

.

 

I think you actually do believe in God after reading your initial post. It sounds like you have been offended by something in the Bible or by something people who claimed to be Christians said or did. Perhaps you would enjoy reading C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. It is an excellent, intellectual read for people who are pondering the kinds of issues of which you write.

 

Wow. I think YOU need to read it again. :lol::lol:

[NanceXToo]

Ipsey, I haven't read all of the posts, but I don't think that you are an atheist. If you were really a true atheist, then there would be no such thing as "good" or "bad/evil.". In order for there to be such a thing as good and bad, there needs to be an entity outside of the universe which has standards of what is right and what is wrong. Otherwise good and bad makes no sense.

 

What a presumptuous crock of sh**. :glare:

 

Just when I thought people couldn't get any more ridiculous... they do.

[Mom-ninja.]

I made an incredible bean dip today! Here have some......

[linguistmama]

Ipsey, I haven't read all of the posts, but I don't think that you are an atheist. If you were really a true atheist, then there would be no such thing as "good" or "bad/evil.". In order for there to be such a thing as good and bad, there needs to be an entity outside of the universe which has standards of what is right and what is wrong. Otherwise good and bad makes no sense.

 

I think you actually do believe in God after reading your initial post. It sounds like you have been offended by something in the Bible or by something people who claimed to be Christians said or did. Perhaps you would enjoy reading C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. It is an excellent, intellectual read for people who are pondering the kinds of issues of which you write.

 

Nice! :glare:

 

Can anyone explain to me how you were able to post the awesome face palms? I'd like to post some on facebook, but can't figure out how because I don't have an image location.

[Ginevra]

I made an incredible bean dip today! Here have some......

 

But how do you really know if the bean dip is "good" or "bad"? ;)

[Alte Veste Academy]

But how do you really know if the bean dip is "good" or "bad"? ;)

 

Well, for starters, if it was made with organic beans, it's got to be good. :tongue_smilie: And you know, if you slide one letter o out of good, what do you have?

 

:D

[nmoira]

But how do you really know if the bean dip is "good" or "bad"? ;)

It depends on whether the recipe came from The Cookbook or whether she cobbled it together herself.

[Mom-ninja.]

I, of course, made the bean dip myself using the home grown beans from my garden. However, my garden is an atheist garden so.....

[Ginevra]

Well, for starters, if it was made with organic beans, it's got to be good. :tongue_smilie: And you know, if you slide one letter o out of good, what do you have?

 

:D

 

It depends on whether the recipe came from The Cookbook or whether she cobbled it together herself.

 

 

:lol::lol::lol: You all are up-funnying my quote!

[Mama2Many4]

As a devout Catholic, all I can say about my beliefs on the OT is that God can determine what HE defines as good and pure and change his mind on that. I don't question my maker since I can make nothing.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I, of course, made the bean dip myself using the home grown beans from my garden. However, my garden is an atheist garden so.....

 

An atheist garden. Hmmm. You know, some people think that God and Mother Nature are one and the same (my DD, actually :tongue_smilie:), making an atheist garden a practical impossibility.

 

My garden is agnostic. (Don't tell DD! :lol:) It just does not have a clue and doesn't think it ever will. But it is organic. So that will have to be G(o)od enough.

[LidiyaDawn]

Nice! :glare:

 

Can anyone explain to me how you were able to post the awesome face palms? I'd like to post some on facebook, but can't figure out how because I don't have an image location.

 

If you want to post them on facebook, save them to your computer (right click, save as - put it in your documents or somewhere else that you'll remember) and *then* you can upload them to facebook. (on your wall or in a specific album)

 

Posting them HERE requires hosting them somewhere (I used tinypic) if you want them in the post itself or uploading them as attachments.